Thanks for the thread!

Very informative stuff in there I wouldn't have the time, inclination and/or inner knowledge/understanding of the game's systems to figure out for myself. That's the kind of information that makes me wanna shelf my main, but at least I know, and that's the point of the thread (or at least one of them).

I wish, I wish, I wish... but then I consider what you say in the Too Late.. It's on Live Server thread (which pretty much sums up how I've been feeling for a long time now about that particular topic) and I realize that wishing and bringing things up is futile (though, oddTodd also brings some good points in that thread as well, so maybe there's hope that the devs themselves listen, but just aren't allowed time to address those issues from up high).

It probably was both actually, I kinda loved to hate that power, I still love it to bits even now that is has been crippled by the nerf, MM was quite over powered yes but the nerf it received was a bit OTT IMO, a bit like the super nerf which hit Sentinel Aura :p

I decided to use MM advantage on it until recently, where I have opted for Rank 3..doesnt really do much seeing as I cant hold or damage anyone during maintain even if they are next to me but oh well.

I remember one time in the good old days of telepathy (yes, I am refering to the tiny slither of hope my Mind had in PvP before holds nerf.) Me and this other Mind where both lvl 40, health was just below 1k for both of us and we both tapped Ego Storm with MM at the same time next to each other and we both died at the same time xD....ah those were the days...:(

Wow.. the hold system is even worse than I tought, no wonder I couldnt even take Manipulator aura. I tought it would compensate the lack of strength of holds but it didnt, trust me, I did try for days and I gave up, it was inviable, a waste of powers, advantages and specializations. Holds are a myth, Manipulator aura is total garbage ( thanks for the damage bonus, thats EXACTLY exactly what people who takes are looking for ), damage is the key, why would I waste so much to hold a player for half a second while Im seeing people crit for 12K all around and waste packs of mobs with a single button and no effort?

I really wish Cryptic would make a data mining and show us how many people have hold powers and manipulator aura, probably 0,5% of the players have them and none for efficiency, all for character concept.

BELOW IS A HYPOTHETICAL SYSTEM BASED SOLELY ON HOLD HP

Holds

• Stuns do 150 base HoldHP (does not increase on rank)
• Rank 1 Roots do 400 base HoldHP (450 R2, 500R3)
• Rank 1 Paralyzes do 800 base HoldHP (900R2, 1000R3)
• Rank 1 Incapacitates do 200 HoldHP per tick for second for 6 ticks (DamageHP done by Incapacitates do count) (250R2, 300R3)
• Holds superseed any other Mez type

Sleep

• Sleep does 1000 SleepHP (does not increase on rank, sleeping targets cannot dodge, Sleeping targets wake upon taking damage) (Rank 2 half chargetime, Rank 3 Tap = Full AoE)

Confuses

• Confuses do 800 ConfuseHP
• ConfuseHP does not require pressing Z to apply breakfree

"Hold Resist" buffs are applied to when a mez'd target receives an additional hold, and whenever receives 500HoldHP. "Hold Resist" boosts breakfree by 33% per stack (multiplicatively).

"Release" is applied upon the completion of a hold, sleep or confuse that grants the target "Mez Immunity", meaning they cannot be slept, stunned or held. The amount of time the "Release" buff is applied depends on the number of stacks of hold resistance on the target. Each stack of hold resistance = 2 second of release. Players also automatically recieve "Release" if they have been held for 12 seconds.

Breakfree removes base 50HP per 0.5 second
Master villains Breakfree is 100HP per 0.5s
Super Villains Breakfree is 250HP per 0.5s
Legendary/Cosmic Villans breakfree is 500HP per 0.5s

Taking damage while Mezzed will decrease the HP of the Mez by 50% the damage value before mitigation.

**Edit: Blacked out components that didn't quite work per @WickedWillow's suggestion, whose system is the basis for this hypothetical. Details are in her PTS suggestion.
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Thoughts?

Alot of #s above are based on some of the current system of holds.. I do believe the max buff possible to holds is around 300% (depending on what PRE gives).

I believe the max buff possible of Hold Resist is around 210% which would mean up to 105 breakfree per tick (210 per second).

Again the values are.. rough drafts to say the least. But the system I believe is much more fair to both the hold users and to the people being held.

This looks familiar ;).
I'm thinking about how much hold resistance needed to keep people from being stuck. 33% per stack seems like a good number. In my math..

0 stacks 50
1 stacks 67 per tick
2 stacks 88 per tick
3 stacks 118 per tic
4 stacks 157 per tic
5 stacks 209 per tic (400 per second)

Any time a strong CC user uses a Paralyze and Chains it with another Paralyze that's 4 stacks of resist.. making the total hold time around 5 seconds and provides 8 seconds of hold immunity.

To me this seems "okay" but not too great to hold users. Maybe the Release amount should go to 1 second per stack of Hold Resistance.. Especially once you add in all the hold resist buffs on top of the base resist numbers.

Also, don't understand why you'd still want every additional hold to add a stack of resistance. I think the stacks should ONLY be added when you reach 500 Hold Points, regardless of how many people have cast them. Quality based, not quantity.

^This especially the highlighted part I totally agree with...bring back the old holding system with the same new specs and your suggestion and in my estimate everybody wins. Although I think Hold resistance should only proc when a different hold power is used..lets say for purpose of example, my PRE was very high making my holds very powerful and my Intelligence and Ego were my secondaries and my cooldown rate of my powers (Ego Storm and Binding of Atraton) was only 3 seconds as my gear was so amazing :p...

If I spammed Ego Storm after the person has broken out of all the chain holds then 1 stack of Hold resistance would be applied. If I used Ego Storm again it would be considerably less effective in holding as the opponent has become RESISTANT TO THAT POWER HOLD only, not resistant to all holds. In my mind and logic you cant be resistant to something without it you feeling it first so they would be resistant to Ego Storm until the point where it turned from old chain hold to incapacitate until hold stacks fell off then it would revert back. But if I then used BoA on the target, stacks of hold resistance would fall off and they would have to develop a new stack... I think though after 1 stack has been reached there is a 20% chance that they will gain Hold Immunity which gives them total immunity to that hold and high overall hold resistance, this would increase per stack so 2 stacks of Hold resistance = 40% and 3 stacks = 60%

Raven, I don't think you're understanding what I mean..

You can only be held once. When you break free you're given immunity to holds. The hold immunity would no longer be applied when you're released from a hold - instead it would be applied whenever a target reaches 500HP of hold strength.


So instead of Hold --> Release --> Hold --> Release--> Hold --> Release

You Have compounding holds.. aka Holding a character who is already held will add YOUR hold strength to the Hold Strength already on the target. Each time that number is 500points the target is helped to get free. And once the target is finally free.. they are immune from holds for a period of time.

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Willow.. I like that you did the math for me! lol.. i was just using arbitrary number TBH. Looking at what you posted I think you EITHER

• give one second per stack of Hold Resistance and make stacks happen more often OR
• give 2 seconds per stack of Hold Resistance and make the stacks happen less often

.. it'd require testing in any case. But the amount of free time IMO should be substantial at 2 stacks.. and to me 2 seconds is not enough time.. while 4 seconds is. for 5 stacks of resistance, that's only 10 seconds of immunity.. that's not too bad. Maybe the 500HP threshold is too low if this is the case..

But I REALLY like the idea of stacks of hold resistance converting into released time (immunity time) so that no one is ever chain held again.

[quote=Jaybezz]Raven, I don't think you're understanding what I mean..

You can only be held once. When you break free you're given immunity to holds. The hold immunity would no longer be applied when you're released from a hold - instead it would be applied whenever a target reaches 500HP of hold strength.


So instead of Hold --> Release --> Hold --> Release--> Hold --> Release

You Have compounding holds.. aka Holding a character who is already held will add YOUR hold strength to the Hold Strength already on the target. Each time that number is 500points the target is helped to get free. And once the target is finally free.. they are immune from holds for a period of time.
[quote]

OH...:p, I get it, my bad

I was messing around with this and comparing your notes with the wiki and what I was seeing in-game and I was wondering what you thought of this?

Tier 1 CC effects: Stagger, Disorient, Snare (including Chill)

Standardized to a 3 max stack gradient (most in this category already follow that). Having a 4th application consume and convert all stacks regardless of type into a Tier 2 equivalent CC effect.

Tier 2 CC effects: Stun (can be upgraded from Stagger), Confuse (upgraded Disorient), Root (upraded Snare)

Any application of direct Tier 2 CC effects on stacks of Tier 1 will just consume and convert them as bonus HoldHP

Tier 3 CC effects: Incapacitate

Stuns, Confuse & Roots are consumed to remove the 1 second delay in Hold effects and converted into bonus HoldHP along with any future applications of Tier 1, 2 CC effects during the maintenance of the Incapacitate.

End Result CC effects: Paralyze, Sleep, Placate

Any CC effects of this type immediately interrupt and/or consume a CC effect of a lower Tier level and convert those effects into bonus HoldHP. Unlike the other Tier levels, targets affected by these CC effects are immune to all other hold effects and they do not add to the HoldHP.

These effects cannot be stacked and only one of these effects can be applied to a target at any given time. Uncontested Incapacitates after 5 seconds immediately convert to Paralyze and all effects of this type are removed by any attacks made against it (and/or apply equivalent Hold Damage along with it's regular damage in the case of a Paralyze).

If any of the above Tier levels are broken free from before completion of its duration (where applicable); then the target gains a stack of Hold Resistance. Otherwise the Hold effect would be removed as normal without any Hold Resistance stack applied.

Parts I like:

• Ranks of Mez (however this would require complete rework of all mez powers)

Parts I don't like:

• Unknown values of the Strength and quality of the holds (you could probably elaborate for me).
• Incapacitates are given a third tier of hold. In my mind incapacitates give Hold over Time (like damage over time) instead of a lump sum (like a spike). There shouldn't be any functional difference between how the hold over time works compared to the lump sum except that the Hold over time is a weaker value and perhaps easier to break free.

Parts I'm still thinking about:

• How a target is granted breakfree and hold immunity (players NEED to have a time period where they are hold immune after breaking free)
• How does having the different tiers of CC work in combat.. My main goal is to simplify all CC into a HP based mechanic. Having many different types of holds can be complex and hard to understand (like the current system)