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# 11
05-23-2012, 08:43 AM
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The threat system is failed anyway.
Dpsers get -15% threat from their primary and secondary stats but +30% all damage, spes with +60% offense and then gears +nnn offense.
While tankers get +30% threat from their stats and............... that's all.
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# 12
05-23-2012, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldin2
It has nothing to do with Legendary .. its really just a special power of the Baron. I learned it when i faced him
a while ago as a SV in a Vibora Bay Quest, and killed myself with a full charges Dragons Claw :D
Really? I thought all the alert bosses can do it. Some block a lot more than others. I know Green Dragon does.
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# 13
05-23-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koriel
Really? I thought all the alert bosses can do it. Some block a lot more than others. I know Green Dragon does.
Never made a Green Dragon Alert. However the Baron has a unique skill called "Voodoo Block" and that
works like good old Iron Maiden in Diablo 2
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# 14
05-23-2012, 09:47 AM
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If you use something like Bunker Buster advantage to Shoulder Launcher which does more damage against blocking opponents, will you just take more damage from a boss with a reflecting block?
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# 15
05-23-2012, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koriel
If you use something like Bunker Buster advantage to Shoulder Launcher which does more damage against blocking opponents, will you just take more damage from a boss with a reflecting block?
I don't think so .. the Vodoo Block just seems to reflect something like 200% of your damage. I think i got
something like 9000 back from my Dragons Claws, and 4500 was a number that i did from time to time.

However .. that was just the Supervillain Version .. not sure if the Legendary is different.
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# 16
05-23-2012, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldin2
Because you play solo most of the time, and like to have a build with good survivability ? And before On-Alert
i also used to run around in Tank role because of the extra hitpoints. Howver now i choose Hybrid of course ;)

ATs however can't change their role.
Makes me wonder if these types of players running these types of toons are the ones blaming level 6s for failed alerts...

Embracing your role and your passive is the absolute key to never failing alerts ever again...if everyone did this, every alert would be a 100% success rate.
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# 17
05-23-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brayv
Makes me wonder if these types of players running these types of toons are the ones blaming level 6s for failed alerts...

Embracing your role and your passive is the absolute key to never failing alerts ever again...if everyone did this, every alert would be a 100% success rate.
Ever done a complete Grab Alert as a 40 with only 3 other players that were all level 9 or 10 only ? It couldn't
fail of course, because no timer .. but it took quite some time, and i really had the feeling as if i were just
soloing the damn thing. I must say that i also not really noticed what the others were doing since i was
too busy with fighting and keep me selfhealed.
If that would have been a timed alert .. yes i would have blamed them when it has failed.

Also i made a test with a level 23 (not 10-) character with the same skills of my main so far .. and i felt myself
not even half as effektive as with my 40s. Lot more power issues .. not even half of the crit damage, only
a weak heal .. took more damage and was busy with blocking and healing up often ... and so on.
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# 18
05-24-2012, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holloweaver
The threat system is failed anyway.
Dpsers get -15% threat from their primary and secondary stats but +30% all damage, spes with +60% offense and then gears +nnn offense.
While tankers get +30% threat from their stats and............... that's all.
A DPS ends up with ~60% +damage from superstats, ~30% from offense (it has severe diminishing returns past that), 60-100% from their passive, and roughly -30% threat from their stats. Also, a 25% multiplicative damage bonus from their role. A tank gets ~60% +threat from superstats, ~30% +damage from their stats, and also ~30% +damage from offense (because seriously, it's trivially easy to get that much offense, especially with Guardian or Warden trees). Also, a 10% (multiplicative?) threat bonus from role.

So, if we pretend there's no diminishing returns on damage buffs, the DPS would be doing
1.25*(1+.6+.3+1)*.7 = 2.53x threat
While the tank does:
(1+.3+.3)*1.6*1.1 = 2.82x threat

The tank starts out ahead, before even considering bonus threat from CC/CS! And if I included diminishing returns, that gap would be even wider.
Of course, there's lots of other ways to boost damage too (forms, Enrage, etc, although these are accessible to tanks also), and tanks often have to use inferior attacks to get CC/CS, and etc etc. Empirically, I can say that it works out just about right, where competent tanks can generally hold aggro quite well, but amazing and/or uncooperative DPS can still give them trouble. That is exactly what a threat system should do, so I feel pretty safe in claiming that it's not a failure.
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# 19
05-24-2012, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteoric87
So, if we pretend there's no diminishing returns on damage buffs, the DPS would be doing
1.25*(1+.6+.3+1)*.7 = 2.53x threat
While the tank does:
(1+.3+.3)*1.6*1.1 = 2.82x threat
After trying to convince a friend yesterday that its better to have 45% crit and 110% severity and maybe
"only" 9800 life instead of 12000+ life but 0 crit, i wonder how many "tanks" also have realized that.

That is in the end nearly 50% more damage, so if DPS is crit heavy but tank not we have :

1.25*(1+.6+.3+1)*.7 = 2.53x threat * 1,5 = 3,795 thread
While the tank does:
(1+.3+.3)*1.6*1.1 = 2.82x threat
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# 20
05-24-2012, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteoric87
A DPS ends up with ~60% +damage from superstats, ~30% from offense (it has severe diminishing returns past that), 60-100% from their passive, and roughly -30% threat from their stats. Also, a 25% multiplicative damage bonus from their role. A tank gets ~60% +threat from superstats, ~30% +damage from their stats, and also ~30% +damage from offense (because seriously, it's trivially easy to get that much offense, especially with Guardian or Warden trees). Also, a 10% (multiplicative?) threat bonus from role.

So, if we pretend there's no diminishing returns on damage buffs, the DPS would be doing
1.25*(1+.6+.3+1)*.7 = 2.53x threat
While the tank does:
(1+.3+.3)*1.6*1.1 = 2.82x threat

The tank starts out ahead, before even considering bonus threat from CC/CS! And if I included diminishing returns, that gap would be even wider.
Of course, there's lots of other ways to boost damage too (forms, Enrage, etc, although these are accessible to tanks also), and tanks often have to use inferior attacks to get CC/CS, and etc etc. Empirically, I can say that it works out just about right, where competent tanks can generally hold aggro quite well, but amazing and/or uncooperative DPS can still give them trouble. That is exactly what a threat system should do, so I feel pretty safe in claiming that it's not a failure.
The threat reduction/bonus is applied on the base damage only :
dpser : 1.25*(1+.6+.3+1)-(1.25*.7) = 2.75
tank : 1.1*1.6+(1+.3+.3) = 3.36
That is if none of them takes a Form, with a Form it turns to :
dpser : 1.25*(1+.6+.3+.3+1)-(1.25*.7) = 3.125
tank : 1.1*1.6+(1+.3+.3+.3) = 3.66

With a form, A dpser gets +.375 threat while the tank gets only +.300
The more a dpser spe into damage outputs (such as boosting his crit severity), the more he can outcome the threat generated by a tank.
Now we can also see how it goes ingame with an example : Annihilate R3 (dpser) Vs Annihilate R2+CC (tanker) :
for the dpser : Annihilate R3*3.125 = 3800 threat,
for the tank : Annihilate R2*3.66 +CC = 4111 threat.
It sounds good, right?
Right... well no !
It sounds good ONLY IF the tank just charges Annihilate repeatedly and nothing else.
I've no clue how he's going to get enough energy to charge repeatedly Annihilate but anyway that's it : it works only if the tank just and only charge repeatedly this attack.

My experience tells that in many situations, the tank is going to trigger his active defense or a heal, etc... and then :
Dpser Vs Tank :
1. Annihilate R3 Vs Annihilate R2+CC : 3800 Vs 4111
2. Annihilate R3 Vs Active Defense : 3800 Vs 0.
As there's a difference of 311 threat, now the tank needs to spam (4111/311) = 13, 13 times full charge of Annihilate to get back the aggro.
And that is exactly what I'm experiencing as a tank.

It's fail.
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