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Archived Post
11-14-2009, 12:01 PM
So, this is a three part thread. I've been messing around with these powers in the power house and two of them have flaws that make them subpar to Invuln.

Defiance: Has to build up 6 stacks to get your full damage mitigation. Not only does it take time to even build up to full strength, when it gets to full strength it doesn't provide the same defense as invuln. On top of these disadvantages compared to invuln, you also only get 20 seconds of it, which thankfully can be refreshed by getting hit or using defensive combo. My solution, since you need to build stacks of it, is to allow it to stay at 6 stacks for 60 seconds so you can at least have a comfortable window.

Enrage: This power takes 8 stacks to reach it's full potential. Not only does it take more stacks, the enrage power has a cooldown of 40 seconds. However, there are powers in the might set that provide a stack of enrage, but they all have knockback on them!! Defensive combo cost less and is just a tap to refresh your defiance. And if you don't happen to kill the enemy with the power+knockback, you have to waste your time on defiance+enrage just to get to that opponent. My solution is to simply give us full stacks with the Enrage power, set the time it stays up to 30 seconds and remove the damn knockback from the enrage stacking powers.

Invuln: Currently way better than Defiance, for a number of reasons.First off you get more damage mitigation than Defiance at it's fullest. Secondly, you don't need to build stacks of it, already saving some HP. And finally, you can build up your 6 stacks of defiance and switch over to invuln and just use defensive combo to keep the stacks while having the bonus of invuln, which is just perfect for fighting cosmics.

Another concern of mine is during a duel I had today, I happen to knock someone back, but then I noticed their health starting to regen and he was less than 50 feet away. Yet another reason why knockback just plays against the Might powerset. Yes, it looks cool to see people flying through the air, but if you look at it, it really just dampers your effectiveness. The exception: Cosmics/Legendary monsters that cant be knocked back.

While it's not a huge concern compared to other powersets, I do wish Cryptic will look into Defiance+Enrage and consider my options or find out a better way for it to be implemented.

Please discuss CO players!

Archived Post
11-14-2009, 12:38 PM
Well chances are the guy you knocked back had Regeneration which will heal them in combat and quick too if they have it ranked up. Ya have to hit them with continious damage to realy put em down dots work nice to counter the regen like fire or toxic damage. Now that you have tried defiance and invuln add in Circle of Primal Domain and watch the diffrence on how powerfull you get .. you wont even need defiance anymore to be honest. The only concern you have is resisting on being knocked back knock up dosent matter as much however unless your low on hp. Now lets say your actually starting to die well its easy you just make sure you have a half way decent heal in your array. Resurgenace works nice as its a con based heal but if you dont want that you can use the new paliate from celestial which will help by recovering a Set % of your hp.. IN this way you can be a tank for anything from cosmics to legendarys, It works well and not just with invuln works with regen too. Had my lvl 27 tank the Mega destroyer keeping aggro almost the whole time and only dying on rare occasion when i failed to block his fistslam attack.

Defiance is underpowered by alot as far as i have seen its the only defensive ability you have to have triggered. Regen kinda triggers off of damage you get hit by but it ticks health regen nicely when it does which is fine when it has no defense bonus. Defiance however is a horrid defenive by comparison but the one passive power i hate more than any of them was Seriphim...

Seriphim is by far the worst passive you can have.. Heres why The tick heal / damage is far to low to matter or make any diffrence. The ticks come WAY to slow for the amount of damage / heal they dish out. Worst of all the aggro received from it is Attrocious I was aggroing mobs almost 100 ft away by just landing in a area and blocking.

This is how it went down.. My buddy and me were playing I landed and seraphim kicked in healing him he was already in combat. Only one group was on him and he hadnt gotten aggro built up from all the mobs yet but that one heal tick he got aggroed all the other mobs on me which activated the Offensive part of Seariphim. Suddenly Every mob within 100 ft aggroed on me and i had not moved and only held up my block.
Needless to say I died realy fast and he followed very shortly after this happened about 10 times before i went and spent the money to respec and once searaphim was gone we had no problems playing.

Seariphim is broken badly and Defiance is severly underpowered.

Sorry for kinda hijacking your post a bit but figured i could fit a bit extra in with yours and my own insight into your original post.

Archived Post
11-14-2009, 12:55 PM
Im sorry but I have to disagree with pretty much this entire post.

I think the only work defiance needs is to have the CD on its stacks set to a flat rate of 1 second and allow the ranks to afford something better. Everything else I just don't see eye to eye with.

Archived Post
11-14-2009, 01:02 PM
I think that depends on how Defiance is intended to work. As you pointed out Defiance can be used with Invuln, by using Defensive Combo and Breakaway shot to refresh. However, its not limited to Invuln, you can mix Defiance + Regen, or Defiance + PFF, or any other Passive. As long as Defiance/Enrage can be combined with any other passive it should be weaker than Invuln. Plus I don't think its intended to be as good as Invuln, if only because you can switch between Defiance and Enrage like a Berserker. And it gives a LOT of energy when it triggers which is very nice too. That doesn't mean Defiance is perfectly balanced, but I just wouldn't expect it to ever be as strong as Invuln.

I do like the suggestion of increasing the duration. 20s is hard to manage.

Archived Post
11-14-2009, 02:14 PM
Defiance is hardly rubbish. Its defense (with a Con-based character) at any rank, at six stacks, is on par with Invulnerability R3. Invul's Strength-based component is what makes it more effective VS low damage hits. On high damage attacks, they're about on par. Defiance also provides you with a constant stream of energy.

That said, it's not perfect. You don't always make the 20s timer, so another 10s (or more) would do a world of good. The stacking is a bit slow and leaves you wide open to start with. If ranking it up gave you 1 stack per rank just always on, and then it built up as normal (to the listed 8 stacks, perhaps?) it might shine a bit more.

I use Defiance on two characters at the moment, and it's my defense of choice on Con-Based characters. Invul certainly has more general-purpose effectiveness though. You really have to fit your playstyle around using Defiance if it's in your build.

Archived Post
11-14-2009, 03:42 PM
Defiance is hardly rubbish. Its defense (with a Con-based character) at any rank, at six stacks, is on par with Invulnerability R3. Invul's Strength-based component is what makes it more effective VS low damage hits. On high damage attacks, they're about on par. Defiance also provides you with a constant stream of energy.

That said, it's not perfect. You don't always make the 20s timer, so another 10s (or more) would do a world of good. The stacking is a bit slow and leaves you wide open to start with. If ranking it up gave you 1 stack per rank just always on, and then it built up as normal (to the listed 8 stacks, perhaps?) it might shine a bit more.

I use Defiance on two characters at the moment, and it's my defense of choice on Con-Based characters. Invul certainly has more general-purpose effectiveness though. You really have to fit your playstyle around using Defiance if it's in your build.


The reason why I say invuln provides more defense is because I fighting Kigatilik and used Defiance, reached 6 stacks, then took off defiance, lost the stacks and put on invuln and invuln had about 100 more mitigated damage, and it doesn't even need to stack.

The point about combining defiance with other passives is quite true, but is this what the dev's intended? That defiance just be used until the stacks are built up then switch to another passive?

Not to mention by taking Defiance you're really only gaining 5 stacks over anyone who uses defensive combo with the advantage. To be more fair to the power, IMO, I think the power should still build up stacks, but not have a 20 second duration. When you leave combat, the stacks go away. If that's chosen then limit how many times defensive combo can provide defiance.

Defiance stacking with other passives reminds me of incentive wit working with energy forms.

Edit: It would also be nice to see exactly how much damage bonus and defense bonus we are getting from defiance and enrage.

Also Rage Overkill, the guy I was fighting wasn't using regen.

Archived Post
11-14-2009, 06:35 PM
Tekken, are you STR/CON?

Defiance is based purely on CON, but Invuln adds a straight damage subtraction which scales on STR.

I wouldn't be surprised if invuln reduces more general splash damage, but I'd have to be convinced by testing that invuln mitigates more than a 6 stack of defiance when it comes to the "big ass attacks" that are the most important to tanking.

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 07:42 AM
I think the problem is two fold with defiance.

1. I think you should have something to start with. The base defence should start at like 20% or so and increase as you get stacks. It should also surpase Inv by a few %.


2. It really should last a little longer. When I team with my defiance toon I'm forced to constantly rush the group. 30 seconds at least. Also, I've found that I've actually only got about 5 to 7 seconds after a fight to find another before my stack leaves.

I'd like to know how the stacks leave... first in first out?

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 08:28 AM
Any refresh of Defiance refreshes the entire stack, and it running out takes out the entire stack. One reason I find Defensive Combo still quite applicable to a Defiance build is to use it on inanimate objects inbetween spawns if things are slow to keep Defiance up.

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 10:39 AM
Defiance is underpowered by alot as far as i have seen its the only defensive ability you have to have triggered. Regen kinda triggers off of damage you get hit by but it ticks health regen nicely when it does which is fine when it has no defense bonus. Defiance however is a horrid defenive by comparison but the one passive power i hate more than any of them was Seriphim...

Defiance however is a horrid defenive by comparison but the one passive power i hate more than any of them was Seriphim...

Seriphim is by far the worst passive you can have.. Heres why The tick heal / damage is far to low to matter or make any diffrence. The ticks come WAY to slow for the amount of damage / heal they dish out. Worst of all the aggro received from it is Attrocious I was aggroing mobs almost 100 ft away by just landing in a area and blocking.

This is how it went down.. My buddy and me were playing I landed and seraphim kicked in healing him he was already in combat. Only one group was on him and he hadnt gotten aggro built up from all the mobs yet but that one heal tick he got aggroed all the other mobs on me which activated the Offensive part of Seariphim. Suddenly Every mob within 100 ft aggroed on me and i had not moved and only held up my block.
Needless to say I died realy fast and he followed very shortly after this happened about 10 times before i went and spent the money to respec and once searaphim was gone we had no problems playing.

Seariphim is broken badly and Defiance is severly underpowered.
Gammabreaker said it best above: Defiance requires a plan. For "slot and forget" take Invulnerable or Regeneration.

Seraphim is anything but broken on a PRE-based character in Sentinel role, since that's what it's designed for. It's not built for resistance or area nuking; the Paranormal damage buff is to negate the damage penalty for the role.

The minor supportive area heal (not an auto-heal for your pals) sort of insinuates that the 25' damage aura advantage would also be pretty minute. What you thought you were going to get out of poking everything around you other than aggro is beyond me. I suppose it might have uses on a healing tank build, but I skipped it.

Seriously now. The worst passive in the game is Cloud of Flies. ;)

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 10:42 AM
At least cloud of flies shuts down healing. Try using single blade's passive against the teliosaurus. *zing*

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 10:51 AM
At least cloud of flies shuts down healing. Try using single blade's passive against the teliosaurus. *zing*

It'll shut it down for the 3/10ths of a second the Clouder remains standing, sure. :D

Certainly I'd agree that the MA passives are sorta underwhelming in the face of the e-builder procs, but I'll question any of these five being offered as superior to Defiance and Seraphim. That way lies madness and processed cheese.

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 11:00 AM
Silly gardener. You're not supposed to live against the teliosaurus. You're supposed to leash her back to the spawn point and just death zerg her 500 times until she goes down.

Archived Post
11-15-2009, 11:04 AM
I'm doing it all wrong! :(

Although the death part I've got down to an art form. :D