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View Full Version : Difficulty in landing melee strikes on moving targets


Archived Post
10-09-2009, 11:00 AM
This goes for all melee strikes in general. It feels like theres a 5ft radius of leeway but considering the nature of latency and speed of moving targets (especially with travel powers) could we increase the range at which these strikes are allowed to fire so long as they were engaged fairly close to the target?

Most of my charged strikes do not fire on moving targets that have escaped my range even though they were once within range and the ones which i can cast on the run are a crap shoot regardless of the mob 'appearing' to be close to me or not.

This problem affects all melee sets and perhaps a tweak would alleviate some of the melee set difficulties.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 11:15 AM
This goes for all melee strikes in general. It feels like theres a 5ft radius of leeway but considering the nature of latency and speed of moving targets (especially with travel powers) could we increase the range at which these strikes are allowed to fire so long as they were engaged fairly close to the target?

Most of my charged strikes do not fire on moving targets that have escaped my range even though they were once within range and the ones which i can cast on the run are a crap shoot regardless of the mob 'appearing' to be close to me or not.

This problem affects all melee sets and perhaps a tweak would alleviate some of the melee set difficulties.

I think any melee attack should apply a minor temporary speed debuff to the target. This way, all other things being equal, you can keep a target in melee range while they run around in circles. In this game, ties should not go to the runner, but to the attacker.

This would be beneficial to PvE as well. Mobs who run screaming to their friends the moment they catch sight of me is nearly as irritating as the keep-away PvP melee game.

And honestly...even with this, melee will still be "underperforming".

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Part of the problem is some of the melee attacks have activation times.

Storm's Harvest in Dual Blade.

It's actually a melee root (YAY!), but it has an activation time (BOO!) so it generally only works when the target is standing still already (or they are just really bad at kiting).

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 11:24 AM
The only fix is to go the CoH route. When a character is able to activate the abliity, the ablity should connect no matter what. So those fancy moves with long animaitons will always hit even if the person runs away. That will fix the problem.

Ago of Conan has this exact same problem. The character start performing their fancy animated moves and the target just simplly walks away while the character stands there swinging at the air.

If you can initiate the move, the move should land on its target.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 11:30 AM
An auto snare on all melee powers just isn't realistic. However increasing the melee range from 7ft (which is broken, its actually around 2ft) to 10ft would go a long way to alleviating these problems, ESPECIALLY with energy builders.

A second step would be to remove the need to be stationary for buildup powers. This would go a long way in bringing melee to a more competitive bracket with range. As it stands now melees have to work twice as hard to get the same results as their ranged counterparts.

Bugged powers withstanding of course.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 12:13 PM
A second step would be to remove the need to be stationary for buildup powers. This would go a long way in bringing melee to a more competitive bracket with range. As it stands now melees have to work twice as hard to get the same results as their ranged counterparts.
I also like this idea. It would go a long way towards levelling the field.

I still like the idea of a small snare effect inherant to all melee. If someone's beating on you, you're not running very fast. It's really quite simple.

Interestingly enough, the developers seem to agree that more snares and less static charges are the fixes they are looking at.

http://shadow.game-server.cc/CrypticDevChat/

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 12:24 PM
How does cryptic feel on this issue and do they have any melee chars which are hampered by activation times/latency difficulties kiting mobs present?

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 12:25 PM
An auto snare on all melee powers just isn't realistic. However increasing the melee range... to 10ft would go a long way...

Yeah, ten feet does go a long way. Ba-bum-tch. It's also a bit further than most people can reach. I'm a pretty tall person, but I'd have a lot of difficulty punching someone ten feet away. Without, like, detaching my hand.

Rocket fists would actually be a hilariously cool power for Power Armor, now that I think of it.

Anyway, now that we have "reality" in perspective, let's try the melee snare idea again. "Realistic" or no -- is it fun? Is it balanceable? I think so to both. I would also suggest that "escape" powers, like Evasive Maneuvers and the backflip version of Thunderbolt Lunge, should break the snare.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 12:26 PM
I think right now, the easiest thing is to allow all melee charge-up to "move" while charging up just like some of the range attacks.

I don't think it's going to "ruin" pvp if I can charge up my claw because I still need to actually get close and anybody can still block it (since it's obvious). This is still way better than not being able to hit anything at all.


I think things just move too quick in this game. I've seen Munition with super speed (I think.. or Acrobatic) that just run and shoot, run and shoot... there is no freaking way a melee can catch up and deal enough damage. And a lot of "Maintain" powers allow the players to move while attacking.


I also think a Stun/Root/Hold from melee attacks should last A LOT longer. I haven't tried Might but I think it has a hold/stun from the punches. They should last a lot longer than other long range holds.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 12:28 PM
Imo a melee auto snare would be unfair because:

1. It removes a strategic mechanic to certain melee powers
2. Strategy for melee chars turns into mindless auto attack.


A simple auto connect of the melee power would suffice as long as you were once in melee range up to a certain distance coupled with a minor extension of the melee radius range.

Powers selection should still be tactical and advantageous this way travel powers and escape tools retain their benefits (fly/teleport/evasion etc).

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:04 PM
Simple solution is this: If you're in range when you activate the attack, it hits.

Unfortunately, the way it works is: If you're in range, you can activate the attack. Then if you stay in range until the animation finishes, you hit. Even the non-chargeables take about a second to land, and good luck getting someone to wait around for you to hit them more than once.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:10 PM
Simple solution is this: If you're in range when you activate the attack, it hits.

Unfortunately, the way it works is: If you're in range, you can activate the attack. Then if you stay in range until the animation finishes, you hit. Even the non-chargeables take about a second to land, and good luck getting someone to wait around for you to hit them more than once.

The sad thing is all the trouble to land a critical melee is not even hurting that much. For me to lane a charge up claw, other people probably already land 4-5 hits on me WHILE moving.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:11 PM
Simple solution is this: If you're in range when you activate the attack, it hits.

Unfortunately, the way it works is: If you're in range, you can activate the attack. Then if you stay in range until the animation finishes, you hit. Even the non-chargeables take about a second to land, and good luck getting someone to wait around for you to hit them more than once.

This will help... I think more snares/roots would be helpful as well.

throughout all the MA trees I think there is one root, one snare, and one travel cancel. (that's what I remember anyway... and I don't think I checked claws now that I think about it)

I think mighty does much better with this.

How 1 point advantages on about 40-50% of melee attacks that will cause a very small snare.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:18 PM
Rather than an auto-snare, how about including a short lunge or follow in all melee moves? I'm not sure what the default speed numbers mean (flight speed 10 is what, 10 feet per tick of ??? seconds?), but it would look less silly than the power going off even after the target is way out of range.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:24 PM
Rather than an auto-snare, how about including a short lunge or follow in all melee moves? I'm not sure what the default speed numbers mean (flight speed 10 is what, 10 feet per tick of ??? seconds?), but it would look less silly than the power going off even after the target is way out of range.

Fair idea... but for that to really come off in a polished fashion they would need to do some animation work as well would you make it a lot harder/time consuming.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:35 PM
Fair idea... but for that to really come off in a polished fashion they would need to do some animation work as well would you make it a lot harder/time consuming.
Well, there's existing lunge code. It isn't entirely reliable, but it exists.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:36 PM
Yeah, ten feet does go a long way. Ba-bum-tch.

I wasn't saying realistic as in REALITY. I was saying realistic as in GAME MECHANICS. This idea was brought up in Beta and shot down.

/rollseyes

And if a snare is all you people need to compete with melee? Mighty Leap. 100% snare (1/2 movement speed) for 20 sec. and puts you right in your targets face. So again like I said earlier, the snare idea won't work because if Thats all that needed be done no one would be complaining that melee is difficult to work with.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 02:52 PM
I wasn't saying realistic as in REALITY. I was saying realistic as in GAME MECHANICS.

You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Maybe you want "imbalanced"? Or something else?

This idea was brought up in Beta and shot down.

/rollseyes

Which, the snare or the range increase? As I recall, both have been brought up and shot down. :rolleyes: Yet here we both are, suggesting them again.

Either one would be an improvement. I feel like the range increase just makes melee attacks less melee -- and does little to help against enemies who zip around outside of range (unless the melee radius becomes so ridiculously large that it's no longer meaningfully 'melee' in any sense). Increasing snares and other movement controls (knockup/down/back is another one I favor) is a scalable and consistent solution... and since we're talking about an inherent condition of melee combat, I think always charging for it as an advantage sounds most like a penalty.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 03:13 PM
You keep using that word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

I KNOW exactly what it means. Don't try to play this game with me. It's absurd. You misunderstood, take it like a man instead of playing it off like a child.

Now, the reason it's not realistic is because as explained in Beta that would be affording a lockdown mechanic the system isn't designed for at little to no cost (ie advantage points) and would make already existing powers redundant. In other words, it takes Cryptic weeks to fix ONE broken power. How ****ing long do you think it will take them to implement this change than redesign existing powers that already do the job snare cry babies whine about? And THEN pass their 1/2 drunk QA dept?

Yeah I don't think so.

Which, the snare or the range increase? As I recall, both have been brought up and shot down.

Than your recollection is for ****. Only one was shot down and that was snare. Range increase was discussed and approved thus why we have 7ft instead of 5. And thats after the reported decrease.

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 03:15 PM
The sad thing is all the trouble to land a critical melee is not even hurting that much. For me to lane a charge up claw, other people probably already land 4-5 hits on me WHILE moving.
You know, reading the most recent developer chat, I read that they were satisfied with melee's damage potential, and I was wondering what melee they were talking about. I mean, I have a Might toon that can swing pretty hard when charged, but that's a pretty long charge. I'm pretty sure ranged can do at least as well, usually a bit faster in most cases, plus they're still ranged. Are they just going by EBB and STC?

This will help... I think more snares/roots would be helpful as well.


The problem with just adding more snares is, you're now requiring melee to take more powers in order to make existing powers work. You're not giving melee players more slots at the same time, just asking them to do something with their build no other ranged power has to in order to not suffer from a disadvantage no ranged power has (i.e. taking 2 steps back and being suddenly out of range of a charged attack). So...a losing situation vs. a losing situation. Brilliant!

No, the answer is to put snares on existing melee attacks. Maybe not the base melee attack, but with an advantage...maybe even that too.

I KNOW exactly what it means. Don't try to play this game with me. It's absurd. You misunderstood, take it like a man instead of playing it off like a child.
I can see you're not a fan of the great S. Morgenstern. ;)

Archived Post
10-09-2009, 03:57 PM
They said in the dev chat that one thing they have planned to fix this is to add a half second period of leeway after a target leaves range in which you can still hit them, so if for example you're charging a melee power and you see them starting to run, you have half a second to just let go of the charge and hit them with a partial one.

Archived Post
10-11-2009, 01:23 PM
Now, the reason it's not realistic is because as explained in Beta that would be affording a lockdown mechanic the system isn't designed for at little to no cost (ie advantage points) and would make already existing powers redundant.

Ok, so you mean it's impractical. That's really all you needed to say, kiddo. I did misunderstand -- because you spoke poorly, chose a word with more than one meaning in context, and got upset instead of clarifying yourself. Now chill. It ain't a personal thang.

In other words, it takes Cryptic weeks to fix ONE broken power. How ****ing long do you think it will take them to implement this change than redesign existing powers that already do the job snare cry babies whine about? And THEN pass their 1/2 drunk QA dept?

Well, clearly it won't take long to pass a half drunk quality assurance team. In fact, we could probably hurry it along with a nice Oktoberfest gift basket.

That aside -- that's devspeak for "it's not an easy fix." Which is fine; the question at this point is, is it a good fix? If so, it may be worth waiting a couple of months for.

Than your recollection is for ****. Only one was shot down and that was snare. Range increase was discussed and approved thus why we have 7ft instead of 5. And thats after the reported decrease.

Looking back on it, I can't find either mentioned in any current forum threads or archived dev chats. You wouldn't happen to have a link, would you?

I can see you're not a fan of the great S. Morgenstern.

That's actually even worse than my interpretation. I hope it ain't so!

Although, given that Morgenstern isn't a real person anyway... ;)

Archived Post
10-11-2009, 04:58 PM
The problem is as soon as the target isn't standing dead still, rooted in place, you can't do damage to them.

It doesn't matter if they are slowed down to -99% move speed, you can't hit them with anything other than instant attacks (beatbown.....), all the while they are still using charged attacks against you.

Haymaker? Can't tap it on someone who's moving, Uppercut the same, Demolish the same etc. etc. I think you can tap Roomsweeper on someone whos on the move.

Unless they do something about this in particular, the melee powers are always going to be inferior in PvP.

Archived Post
10-11-2009, 05:03 PM
A second step would be to remove the need to be stationary for buildup powers. This would go a long way in bringing melee to a more competitive bracket with range. As it stands now melees have to work twice as hard to get the same results as their ranged counterparts.

This is probably the only way to mitigate this issue. Allowing players to charge melee attacks while moving will lessen, but not eliminate the problem.

While internet communication is exceedingly fast, it is not instantaneous. There is a micro-gap between what you do (and your client shows you doing) and that data getting to the server and your getting "credit" for it. Same thing with the server doing something and you becoming aware of it. For example, you fire at a mob then move behind a wall. The server targets you as soon as you fire at the mob, and assigns a hit. In the interim, you move behind the wall, and your client shows you moving. When the data about your being hit arrives, the attack seems to travel through the wall to hit you. Subsequent attacks do not because by then the server knows you are out of sight and alters mob tactics.

If your melee target happens to be out of range when the attack animation begins, no hit. Sometimes when you don't get a hit it will look as if the target is in range, because of the gap between the server deciding what happened and your screen displaying it. Throw in lag/framerate issues and the problem can be even worse.

Archived Post
10-11-2009, 05:03 PM
The problem is as soon as the target isn't standing dead still, rooted in place, you can't do damage to them.

I don't think this is quite true (I've gotten several charged melee attacks off at 50% or more strength against slow-moving targets by positioning aggressively). But the idea is for a multi-spectrum fix: allowing more melee attacks to be charged while moving -- which, out of everything suggested in this thread, I think is the most important one -- and allowing some attacks to front-load the hitroll would complement either increasing snares or increasing the melee radius.

Archived Post
10-11-2009, 05:15 PM
Melee snares should almost deaden their movement. They should be crawling not walking with how much 'lee-way' a person is given.

Forget about hitting a swinger with anything melee. It just won't happen even snared or de travel powered. They just swing away again.

Another problem is to many of our heavy hitting abilities require a redunkulous charge up time. And even one foot out of this suppouse 7 feet and our haymaker, dragon's, turns into an 'air-kicker.' There just went alot of energy on alot of nothin.

Melee's snares / roots are pathetic. Why even take them when electrocute is and until changed will always be 100% better even vs a level three mighty leap.

And even if you do fix melee's rooting and snaring capabilities whats to keep a ranged player from taking them as well? Their needs to be more incentives for having a melee energy builder vs not having a melee energy builder.

Right now only Righteous fists builds anything respectable as far as energy goes. The rest are just poopy or comparable to range energy builders.

When a ranged player can sit within 10 feet of a melee player and have nothing to worry about something needs to be re-thought. Ranged players should always be running from melee because of fear of everything and not a one trick pony power.

Because uppercutting someone to death is yawnable, and watching 55% of someones health go bye bye is insulting as a 'fix.'

Archived Post
10-11-2009, 05:22 PM
Borrow a page out of Guild Wars, you click a power on someone and your melee char charges after that person until they are in range - allow the melee to charge up while running toward it's target - np, melee somewhat balanced after that.

If something like this is not implemented melee will continue to be lag/range bait.