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View Full Version : Defiance VS. Invul, Advice please.


Archived Post
09-27-2009, 07:56 AM
I am currently spec'd Invul w/ DC and CoPD. I use the Energy sheild w/ laser knight.

Here is my question.
I switched between Defiance and Invuln as my passive.
At level 29, the fire beam does the following to me.

No def passive 2391

w/ Invul alone 1588 (rank 3 invuln.)
w/ invul and CoPD 1424
w/ invul, DC 1489
w/ Invul, DC, CoPD 1344

w/ Defiance stacked 1515
w/ Defiance and CoPD 1373

My question is as follows:

With both Passives coming very close to each other with CoPD, and wanting to keep more of a melee feel to my character, would the energy benefits of defiance not be better overall for threat? And by melee feel, I am currently using FB as my builder, with LS as my primary energy dump. I find that the LS is very costly for energy and you can literally spam uppercut and a lot more damage.

I Understand that Invul is better for Alpha strikes, but If you use Block, or Unbreakable at the start of the fight, you can easily move past the very short stack time of Defiance.

I am also considering using Thundering Kicks, which is also a melee attack.(adds dodge bonus) I am planning on using ES/Laser knight and all melee offensive powers.

I am not interested in LR tanking as I doubt that will go un-nerfed.

This is what I am playing around with:

Build by championBuilder 0.3.2 (http://champions.zarzu.ch)

Download this Build here. (http://champions.zarzu.ch/download.php?download=4132g500005001150c105zz04500 6050840500145002050f1050h42508525064150021500155zz 035004075y10k5y2025y2005y2095y20n5y20o5y20p25y0005 y0021h0000000000000000)

: Level 40 Champion

Superstats:
Level 5: Super Strength
Level 13: Super Constitution

Powers:
Level 1: Clobber
Level 1: Defensive Combo
Level 5: Thundering Kicks
Level 5: Teleport
Level 8: Defiance
Level 11: Energy Shield
Level 14: Uppercut
Level 17: Thunderclap
Level 20: Ego Sprites
Level 23: Circle Of Primal Dominion
Level 26: Unbreakable
Level 29: Bionic Shielding
Level 32: Havoc Stomp
Level 35: Demolish
Level 35: Acrobatics
Level 38: Shockwave

Talents:
Level 1: Superhuman
Level 6: Enduring
Level 9: Mighty
Level 12: Physical Conditioning
Level 15: Shrug It Off
Level 18: Quick Recovery
Level 21: Boundless Reserves

Talents:

Archived Post
09-27-2009, 08:22 AM
Well, the first question I have to ask is; which fits your build best? Seems you've got a few cherry-picked abilities like Bionic Shielding and Circle of Primal Dominion. So, chiefly I would say that you should fit in what best works with your story.

Also, it sounds like the lower damage of henchmen isn't going to phase you much anyways, given your other power choices. If you're faced with damage, then you can heal up using Bionic Shielding. The future of Defensive Combo is up in the air, as the Power Designers have removed (in a future patch) one chief reason for using it: Building Defiance. Now, you're likely better off to just go Defiance, and taking taunt advantages to keep threat. Invulnerability is great against lower ranked threats, and lots of them, but if you're going up against a single tough opponent, then you need the Percentage DR that Defiance Offers in greater amounts than Invulnerability. Also, you only need to really focus on Constitution for that to be effective.

Archived Post
09-27-2009, 08:29 AM
I went with a fun build for some offence fun. The recovery and End is just there to gain more Const.

Archived Post
09-27-2009, 10:01 AM
Wait, so if Defensive Combo will no longer build endurance, then what on earth would it do?

Archived Post
09-27-2009, 10:05 AM
Wait, so if Defensive Combo will no longer build endurance, then what on earth would it do?

It never did build endurance, but increased threat and stacked Defiance quickly. Now, the latter capability is reduced by 87.5%, or down to 1 stack out of 8 maximum.

Archived Post
09-28-2009, 12:53 PM
It never did build endurance, but increased threat and stacked Defiance quickly. Now, the latter capability is reduced by 87.5%, or down to 1 stack out of 8 maximum.

For Invul builds, works like normal for defiance builds

Archived Post
09-28-2009, 01:04 PM
For Invul builds, works like normal for defiance builds

Not according to the description given by the devs:

"* Defensive Combo: The way this power applies the Defiance buff has been changed. It will no longer stack the Defiance buff, instead, it will apply 1 stack of Defiance if no stack currently exists, or refresh any number of existing applications of Defiance.
*Defensive Combo: Surge of Strength has been changed to function the same way, and now guarantees an application or refresh of Defiant on every swing.


What makes you say its different for defiance builds?

But to answer the question, you'd get it for threat generation. It's a 0 cooldown taunt.

Archived Post
09-28-2009, 01:53 PM
With both Passives coming very close to each other with CoPD, and wanting to keep more of a melee feel to my character, would the energy benefits of defiance not be better overall for threat? And by melee feel, I am currently using FB as my builder, with LS as my primary energy dump. I find that the LS is very costly for energy and you can literally spam uppercut and a lot more damage.

I Understand that Invul is better for Alpha strikes, but If you use Block, or Unbreakable at the start of the fight, you can easily move past the very short stack time of Defiance.

I am also considering using Thundering Kicks, which is also a melee attack.(adds dodge bonus) I am planning on using ES/Laser knight and all melee offensive powers.

I am not interested in LR tanking as I doubt that will go un-nerfed.

Firstly I have a LR guy with very high dex and a defensive slant and I don't think it is overpowered. It just does well at what Invulnerability doesn't. It suffers for trash mobs, but does well at big slow enemies... so far anyway ( at level 26 ).

Thundering kicks is probably not worth it, it barely seems worthwhile on my LR guy where it stacks better. You get a 12% dodge bonus for 5 seconds after 1.5 seconds of attacking ( the third hit of the combo ). The advantage might be worthwhile though for big boss fights if you can keep aggro, it gives a stackable 5% dodge per hit, but you lose it once you dodge. I easily got over 150% dodge in the powerhouse with it.. but then dummies don't fight back...

With Defiance you are certainly going to hold aggro better than invulnerable and the numbers look comparable.

Laser Knight is going to do more for your survivability than any single other power... as it is a 67% block it will get you down to 819 for the defiance and CoPD one. Unfortunately it doesn't rank up.

Archived Post
09-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Not according to the description given by the devs:

"* Defensive Combo: The way this power applies the Defiance buff has been changed. It will no longer stack the Defiance buff, instead, it will apply 1 stack of Defiance if no stack currently exists, or refresh any number of existing applications of Defiance.
*Defensive Combo: Surge of Strength has been changed to function the same way, and now guarantees an application or refresh of Defiant on every swing.


What makes you say its different for defiance builds?

But to answer the question, you'd get it for threat generation. It's a 0 cooldown taunt.

Basically, for Defiance builds it refreshes your stack. Not build it for you. Maintaining the full stack. I guess my post didn't make sense.