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Archived Post
09-14-2009, 12:38 PM
i have tested this as well as three other people i know. a change was made today or last night to the poison breath attack. currently, it affects only 3 targets at a time, as opposed to 5.

is this a new bug or are the devs just making power changes they're not bothering to mention?

look... i don't care if you wanna change powers in the game. but i don't see any reason to be secretive about it. just let us know, please.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 02:59 PM
anyone else noticed the changes? i would love to be wrong on this. seriously.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 07:34 PM
I need to know too. This 3 target cap is making all breath weapons totally useless.

Beyond useless ..... and it was my THIRD POWER! My character is gimp and ruined if this is not a bug.


Oh and this seems to affect most or all cone attacks. Even Break Away Shot only hits 3 targets. Not that I am too worried about that. A breath attack on a LONG maintain covering a 90 arc should hit more than 3 bloody things!


UPDATE: So I looked at my power now.....it says only 3 targets!

Thanks Cryptic...time to delete another toon.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 04:50 AM
Like I said, I'm not so much concerned about whether it's a nerf or bug. Well... that's not entirely accurate. What really concerns me is whether or not it was an UNDOCUMENTED change.

I look at MMOs as a relationship between devs and players. Open and clear communication are important in any (healthy) relationship. I would like to think that a veteran gaming company like Cryptic understands this.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:07 AM
Are you speaking of Venomous Breath from Supernatural powerset? If that is the case, then it was capped at 3 max targets at the very least since the beginning of the headstart. That's when I created my first character with the power and it was the power I used the most back then.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:13 AM
Venom breath was indeed silencely nerfed by going from 5 to 3 targets..
Remember playing OB and I was hitting 5 targets and then suddenly it was 3...major let down also the reason why I am trying to find another cone attack for my supernatural char...finally got shockwave from might and then stumbled on its 15 second cooldown which I overlooked in its description...another let down :(
The darkness cone is awesome but it doesnt suit my character as much...dangit!

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 07:11 AM
Are you speaking of Venomous Breath from Supernatural powerset? If that is the case, then it was capped at 3 max targets at the very least since the beginning of the headstart. That's when I created my first character with the power and it was the power I used the most back then.

Morphing, I distinctly remember hitting 5 targets and seeing the damage ticks on my screen for those 5 targets as well. So do other people with whom I have spoken. I even remember the description of the power stating that it affected up to 5 mobs. I'm at work right now but will log in to check if the description still says 5 mobs.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 10:24 AM
Like I said, I'm not so much concerned about whether it's a nerf or bug. Well... that's not entirely accurate. What really concerns me is whether or not it was an UNDOCUMENTED change.

.

Quoted for mega truth ! Systems Devs please pass the changes along in advance to whoever writes the patch notes - so all changes can be properly documented for the community. Forcing players to ferret out the changes on their own pretty much sucks.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 11:28 AM
UPDATE: at this point i can say that poisonous breath is actually broken -- possibly due to the undocumented changes. and i don't mean nerfed, i mean BROKEN.

i target a mob, let's say it's a boss. he has henchmen. they rush in. i use poison breath. guess who i hit! did i hit the boss? you know, the mob that is targeted? well, not if there are more than two additional henchmen. see, now the game decides for me, in a seamingly random manner, which mobs i hit. i guess it's closest to farthest though i could not clearly i dentify the pattern. either way, i'm not able to decisively hit my target.

for those who read this, please do a bug report for any power that behaves in this manner, as it is INDEED a bug and not the way the power was meant to work.

hurray for devs and undocumented changes! i hope they learn from this experience. but they probably won't (since they haven't already).

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 11:30 AM
Given their either inability or unwillingness to document all their changes (both of which should generate concern), it could be either. They removed Eldritch Resurgence from Eldritch Shield without documenting the change. Probably because very few people would have noticed. Apparently they only document changes people might actually find.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 11:37 AM
fairly certain that it has always said hits 3 targets max. Was always surprised when it hit more and assumed it was broken and would get fixed. And yes it does seem it has now been fixed to match its description. Should they let us know when they make such fixes, probably. But fixing a power which is not matching it's description is part of what needs to be done. We all scream loud enough when a power is not doing what it says it should when it hurts us, well the same thing applies when powers are working incorrectly and benefiting us.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 12:45 PM
currently the description states 3 mobs, max. i am almost certain that is used to read 5 mobs max. i have conferred with others who also remember it as stating 5 mobs in the description. however, i am certainly willing to admit that i (and others) could be wrong.

either way, their unannounced change to the power screwed up how it works. i still can't hit the mob i'm targeting if there are more than two other mobs in the vicinity. the power should at least hit my target.

like i said, i don't mind the nerfs for the sake of game balance, and some changes are certainly going to affect characters that i've created. i'm ok with that. really. i would just prefer that changes be documented in patch notes, the way they're supposed to be.

<personal gripe>
what was the mindset of the person who made an aoe attack with a 50' range and 90 degree cone that only affects 3 mobs? i'm sorry, but that's just stupid. and i don't normally use words like "stupid" in forum posts. sorry, i just had to get that out of my system.
</personal gripe>

we now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 01:26 PM
either way, their unannounced change to the power screwed up how it works. i still can't hit the mob i'm targeting if there are more than two other mobs in the vicinity. the power should at least hit my target.
Makes thematic sense to me. You think your attack should mysteriously go through the cannon fodder and hit the villain? ;)

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:33 PM
Makes thematic sense to me. You think your attack should mysteriously go through the cannon fodder and hit the villain? ;)

i will in good faith assume you are not a troll and that you are simply not fully processing what you have read.

to break it down as simply as possible:
a power has a range of 50 feet, contained in a 90 degree cone. i target a mob, to which i have a clear line of fire. but because there are other mobs within the range of my attack, the mysterious mathematical formula at work decides that i only hit the mobs flanking my target.

i'm not sure where "thematic sense" figures into this dilemma. unless you're talking about realism (which i would still question as relevant considering the nature of the game). if you are talking about realism, think about the affects of a flame thrower. even if you're standing behind someone, if you're within range, you're gonna get burned. i would consider the behavior of a flame thrower attack to be fairly consistent, conceptually, with a cone AoE.

regardless, i see a power which should be straightforward, no longer functioning in a predictable, logical manner after undocumented changes were made to it.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:36 PM
More nerfs, more destroyed characters and still no working retcon system so we can fix things.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:39 PM
Morphing, I distinctly remember hitting 5 targets and seeing the damage ticks on my screen for those 5 targets as well. So do other people with whom I have spoken. I even remember the description of the power stating that it affected up to 5 mobs. I'm at work right now but will log in to check if the description still says 5 mobs.

I know for a fact as of 2 weeks ago it was hitting just 3 targets. It even said so in the power description. This was when I was parsing data and crunching all the maintained AOEs. Not sure what the OP is talking about.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:41 PM
More nerfs, more destroyed characters and still no working retcon system so we can fix things.

I don't get why this conspiracy theory about "undocumented changes" is being taken up. The devs don't seem shy about announcing their nerfs in the patch notes. There are tons of powers that don't work as they are supposed to and these are being addressed. There is even a dev created post floating around for you to post bugs into.

There are tons of powers not working properly.... I wonder is it that the game is new and powers are being adjusted/fixed regularly or is it.... a massive conspiracy of undocumented changes with the ultimate goal of sticking in to players who use breath attacks?

Edit: Now that I think of it this is just the sort of black ops that I would expect from the north korean intelligence community. Someone had better alert the devs quickly to this security breach. For lack of a more direct communications channel I suggest filling out a bug report.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 06:02 PM
I took a look, because if there had been an unintended change, we would want to know. However, it looks like Venomous Breath has been set to hit 3 target max for quite a while (at least 4 months, I stopped digging back after that). The power itself hasn't been touched at all in over a month.

However, the breath weapon attacks are being set to all have max targets of 5, bumping both Fire Breath and Venomous Breath up to the same target cap that Frost Breath has.

As for undocumented changes - I can assure you that I, personally, don't want any changes getting to the live servers without documentation, and I don't think anyone else here does, either. Discussing nerfs/buffs/changes/bug fixes on the forums is going to happen, whether they are documented or not. All that not documenting them does is make people angry about not documenting changes when we should have, and no one wants that.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 06:06 PM
i never recall my VB hitting more than 3 targets. always felt that was silly.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 06:17 PM
+1 for devs posting on forums :D

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 07:16 PM
+1 for devs posting on forums :D

Agreed. I just wish they would do it more often. Even if it is just a "we're looking at the issue" kinda post, I don't care. On topic again:

I too remember it being capped at 3 previously. It was still my go to attack on my supernatural build char whenever there were more then 2. If I needed to hit more then 3, I'd let it fully go, use the energy builder for 2 seconds, and fully go again. Killed most every henchmen and severely injured villains. super and master villains (aside from robots and undead, I HATE fighting those), both of whom got bitten. a lot. and then had their essence's devoured.

Edit: If you were hitting more then 3, then that was a bug.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 09:07 PM
So in actuality, sounds like it's getting buffed :)

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 10:12 PM
I took a look, because if there had been an unintended change, we would want to know. However, it looks like Venomous Breath has been set to hit 3 target max for quite a while (at least 4 months, I stopped digging back after that). The power itself hasn't been touched at all in over a month.

I think the OP and all the supporters of the OP should offer up an apology...

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 10:21 PM
I think the OP and all the supporters of the OP should offer up an apology...

I dunno, if what neuro is saying is correct that target doesn't influence the target selection, I think that the AI choosing what 3 or 5 targets are affected needs a revamp. no apologies needed. just feedback fixes and compromise

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 10:43 PM
i never recall my VB hitting more than 3 targets. always felt that was silly.

If you kill one or more of the three targets, additional targets start taking damage *with the same activation of venom breath*, so you're "only" hitting three critters if you can't knock out a minion or two. I have no trouble wiping out a massive crowd with a single breath, and I only have rank 2.

Just... breathe.

EDIT: you can also move around your targets as you breathe, to adjust the direction of the cone. Spray those *******s good.

Archived Post
09-16-2009, 01:02 PM
I took a look, because if there had been an unintended change, we would want to know. However, it looks like Venomous Breath has been set to hit 3 target max for quite a while (at least 4 months, I stopped digging back after that). The power itself hasn't been touched at all in over a month.

However, the breath weapon attacks are being set to all have max targets of 5, bumping both Fire Breath and Venomous Breath up to the same target cap that Frost Breath has.

As for undocumented changes - I can assure you that I, personally, don't want any changes getting to the live servers without documentation, and I don't think anyone else here does, either. Discussing nerfs/buffs/changes/bug fixes on the forums is going to happen, whether they are documented or not. All that not documenting them does is make people angry about not documenting changes when we should have, and no one wants that.

thank you, ame. your response is greatly appreciated and i'm happy to admit that i was obviously mistaken. i'm not sure why, but even though i've used the power since open beta, i do not recall not affecting my target until just a couple days ago. it may very well be the case that i either just didn't notice it, or that i managed to somehow avoid it. typically i attack henchmen first and then go after more powerful mobs. that tactic would tend to hide the targeting issue.

but either way, again... thank you very much for your response. :)

Archived Post
09-16-2009, 01:03 PM
after testing some more, i still think there is something wrong with the way the attack targets mobs -- i'm not hitting the mob i target because there are other mobs flanking it. that just seems so counter-intuitive that i would consider it a bug.

oh, but it's still exciting to hear about the max targets being moved to 5! woot!

Archived Post
09-16-2009, 07:52 PM
Neurotopia you are absolutely correct and the Dev is wrong. About 3 weeks ago a made a concept character around Ven Breath. It did in fact hit 5 Mobs at once. I tested this in the test room. I tested this with in game mobs and I have played the character to lvl 21. 2 days ago it only started hitting 3 mobs. I am not sure if the discription was changed or it has always read 3 mobs but it is still annoying as hell that the power I centered my character around was changed. no mention in patch notes. If they are going to change powers around like this they need to offer free respects so we do not have to trash characters and start over!

Archived Post
09-16-2009, 08:12 PM
I will have to say that there was a change in Venomous breath.

It is true that the power description stated that the power only affected 3 mobs. However the power when used affected all mobs in range. This power was fantastic and awe inspiring to see as far as your power reached damaging the dummies in the power house. I chose this power not from the power description but in how it worked in application. For many hours I played my character with Venomous breath working this way.

Keep in mind all the mobs I was damaging were attacking me as well.

I also tested Sonic device with venomous breath. The affect was the first 3 mobs were stunned and the rest of the mobs not affected by Sonic device just took the normal damage from VB. Please don't get side tracked by Sonic Device in this post. The point I am making is that VB was affecting all mobs in its area of affect.

The change was striking and makes the power much less desirable even considering balancing issues.

If I target a boss and I have a clear line of sight with no mobs in a direct path and off to the side way at the edge of my cone there are mobs, these mobs that are closer to me take up the 3 target limit, leaving the boss unaffected.

This I very different from how it was preforming before the patch where all mobs in the large cone were affected.

In making the choice of a power, I spend a few minutes reading the description and 15+ trying the power in the power house, then testing it with AI mobs in the active zones. I pay little attention to descriptions of powers in the test, due to my perception that these descriptions are not set or valid. In the case of VB it was true.

As far as a rational for being able to affect so may mobs, it is a gaseous breath weapon. Gas will bend and flow around obstacle and continue to expand until it dissipates. Though Champions online uses comic book science, you can make it do anything you want as long as it advances the story.

I know with certainty that the power has changed. It is blatant to those who used the power before and after the change.

It is frustrating to invest creativity, and time to build a character up to a power that is a defining expression of the character's concept, only to see it nerfed or broken. More so when this change is not communicated to the the customer.

Archived Post
09-16-2009, 08:33 PM
I had a character based on venomous breath, and, while I haven't played him since the last patch, I can absolutely confirm that I was hitting more than three targets at once. I would purposefully draw multiple groups of enemies so I could take full advantage of the damage. I was considering deleting the character to make room for other ideas, but if venomous breath is actually only supposed to hit three targets, that seals the deal.

Archived Post
09-17-2009, 04:41 AM
I don't get why this conspiracy theory about "undocumented changes" is being taken up. The devs don't seem shy about announcing their nerfs in the patch notes. There are tons of powers that don't work as they are supposed to and these are being addressed. There is even a dev created post floating around for you to post bugs into.

There are tons of powers not working properly.... I wonder is it that the game is new and powers are being adjusted/fixed regularly or is it.... a massive conspiracy of undocumented changes with the ultimate goal of sticking in to players who use breath attacks?

Edit: Now that I think of it this is just the sort of black ops that I would expect from the north korean intelligence community. Someone had better alert the devs quickly to this security breach. For lack of a more direct communications channel I suggest filling out a bug report.

just to clarify... at no point did i state or imply this issue was conspiratorial. conspiracy requires deliberate intent and second guessing what the devs were thinking never entered my mind. i was merely trying to bring to the forums that my observations led me to believe there had been undocumented changes made. i was and am more than willing to admit that i could be wrong. though it seems there are others who corroborate my experience. :p

Archived Post
09-17-2009, 11:21 AM
today i downloaded a patch that was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 megs. there are no patch notes.

Archived Post
09-18-2009, 05:35 AM
another day... another update. still no documentation.

Archived Post
09-22-2009, 08:45 AM
LOL... and the changes just keep coming. the patch notes, however, are still scarce.