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Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:29 AM
You will never be able to balance PvP.

Ever.

Here's the thing:

PvP started in FPS and strategy games (think Command and Conquer). In these genres, the game was balanced. Every player knew what the capabilities of every other player were, because the game's parameters were pre-set and could not be altered, short of hacks.

In a FPS, every gun works the same way for every player using said gun. They all do the same damage, same fire rate, same range limitations.

In strategy games, every army has basically the same capabilities, same units, same structures.

Every player, regardless of veterancy, is standing on the same, even playing field. This is where skill comes in. In these games, if you lose a match it really is because the other player out-played you. They were just better.

Nobody cried for nerfs to grenades or shotguns. Nobody whined that units were unfair.

Well, they did, but their arguments were invalidated by the fact that all things were equal.

In a MMO, tthis even playing field does not exist and skill plays very little part in the equation.

Short of a player knowing which powers/weapons they need to make themselves more unkillable/blood-letting, skill is almost negated.

Simply put, I have the bigger sword and better armor = I will always conquer you.

CO does not, cannot, and will not have an even playing field.

Ever.

The only way to "balance" PvP is to make every player exactly the same. All players will have the same powers, ability scores, and health. Only then will they achieve what the PvP players desire.

A fair, balanced, and utterly boring MMO.

From the non-PvP player's point of view, the "balance" argument goes something like this:
"I am the best player this game has ever seen! I am the ultimate PvPer in the history of mankind! None can challenge me! ... I lost? I can't LOSE! Obviously there is a flaw in the game! Yes, that's it! That power set that person used is unbalanced and unfair! His powers are too powerful for this game! I DEMAND they be weakened!"

Now, take that from Player A and apply it to Player B. See, Player A was defeated by Player B. Nerfs ensue, and now Player B is saying the exact same thing.

This game, as with all MMOs, only needs to be balanced one way: PvE.

As long as the game is challenging, but not literally impossible, for players vs AI, balance has been achieved.

AI and humans will never play the same, no matter how intuitive the programming is; it's really just programming. The AI will always follow the pattern they have been told to follow. Humans, believe it or not, will alter there pattern when faced with an obstacle.

It's this alteration of human cognition that will forever make PvP unbalanceable.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:40 AM
But its just that simple fact that makes people <3 mmo PvP. The imbalance is what drives some people. For example, lets say that the weakest tree in the game (just for instructional purposes) was martial arts, some people will go out their way to play martial arts and master it.. this way when they won in PvP there are no excuses and talk about the bragging rights when Martial Arts beats the FotM.

A good comparrison is why Dan Hibiki is so popular amoungst the hardcore street fighter pro's. It's like giving yourself a handicap, and when you win with Dan it can really drive your opponent nuts. Sure it seems mean to do such a thing, but once everyone takes a step back and breathes a little, then everyone realizes it's just a game and the compitition is all in good fun.

(EDIT, forgot to add this)

Also, it works Vice Versa. Some people just want to be the overpowered PvP class. Once it gets nerfed, they will create a new character who is the FotM. People like to bash those kind of people calling them no talent, etc. etc... but I think its fine. People play the way they want to play. As long as they are not going out of their way to try to ruin your gaming experience then I say let em be!

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:41 AM
I do agree , none had perfect balance or some class will just be useless AKA the healer /or the support class. It will be more like a rock paper scissors imo.

But they can try hard to achieve every class can beat every class it will never happen . There will be always a balance issues in one of the skill's etc..

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:50 AM
You will never be able to balance PvP.

Ever.

Here's the thing:

PvP started in FPS and strategy games (think Command and Conquer). In these genres, the game was balanced. Every player knew what the capabilities of every other player were, because the game's parameters were pre-set and could not be altered, short of hacks.

Chess wins by a fair margin, or you know two peasants throwing stones at a wall

In a FPS, every gun works the same way for every player using said gun. They all do the same damage, same fire rate, same range limitations.

yes but what about tech powering the game, difrrent mouse dpi setting, voice comms and map knowledge

In strategy games, every army has basically the same capabilities, same units, same structures.

Im multiplayer RTS games A cribed build plan beats all

Every player, regardless of veterancy, is standing on the same, even playing field. This is where skill comes in. In these games, if you lose a match it really is because the other player out-played you. They were just better.

Not always, lagg and pc equipment can affect the outcome

Nobody cried for nerfs to grenades or shotguns. Nobody whined that units were unfair.

check out the complete revamp of DOW2

Well, they did, but their arguments were invalidated by the fact that all things were equal.

In a MMO, tthis even playing field does not exist and skill plays very little part in the equation.

Short of a player knowing which powers/weapons they need to make themselves more unkillable/blood-letting, skill is almost negated.

Simply put, I have the bigger sword and better armor = I will always conquer you.

CO does not, cannot, and will not have an even playing field.

well its a team game solo pvp isnt a part of it so you will start to see inventive premades fighting it out soon enough

Ever.

Wrong Tbh

The only way to "balance" PvP is to make every player exactly the same. All players will have the same powers, ability scores, and health. Only then will they achieve what the PvP players desire.

Again not a single player game m8

A fair, balanced, and utterly boring MMO.

From the non-PvP player's point of view, the "balance" argument goes something like this:
"I am the best player this game has ever seen! I am the ultimate PvPer in the history of mankind! None can challenge me! ... I lost? I can't LOSE! Obviously there is a flaw in the game! Yes, that's it! That power set that person used is unbalanced and unfair! His powers are too powerful for this game! I DEMAND they be weakened!"

Now, take that from Player A and apply it to Player B. See, Player A was defeated by Player B. Nerfs ensue, and now Player B is saying the exact same thing.

This game, as with all MMOs, only needs to be balanced one way: PvE.

As long as the game is challenging, but not literally impossible, for players vs AI, balance has been achieved.

AI and humans will never play the same, no matter how intuitive the programming is; it's really just programming. The AI will always follow the pattern they have been told to follow. Humans, believe it or not, will alter there pattern when faced with an obstacle.

It's this alteration of human cognition that will forever make PvP unbalanceable.

Im sorry but your argument is based around single player games, this is a multiplayer game where hopefull teams/sg will be able to slug it out.

im not flaming just offering counter points

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:52 AM
There is no spoon.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:53 AM
Im sorry but your argument is based around single player games, this is a multiplayer game where hopefull teams/sg will be able to slug it out.

Right.

Gotcha.

But then, you can whine that somebody on your team was not buffed enough or too nerfed to have been useful.

Simply put, PVP - team or single player based - in an MMO will never be balanced enough to make a majority of players agree that it is fair.

The majority will always shout that somebody else has an advantage and balance will never be achieved.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:53 AM
I totally agree that true balance is a myth and if we really had true balance we would hate the game. Homogenizing every framework would be detrimental.

You can't eliminate min/max builds or fotm builds. The secret is to get every frameworks reasonably close where they all have some kind of strengths.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:53 AM
WHAT THE ****!?!

Its possible to balance PvP...

Like you said Strategy game is a good example. If we take by exemple Starcraft, there is three faction whic is Zerg, Proton and Terran. Those three faction have been balanced since they dont really make the same thing.

You can get a better set of power from another that for sure but in Starcraft you can have a better build too so this come to the same thing so please ... if you are a PvE player dont said its impossbile to balance PvP because you want developer to work on it.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:56 AM
WHAT THE ****!?!

Its possible to balance PvP...

Like you said Strategy game is a good example. If we take by exemple Starcraft, there is three faction whic is Zerg, Proton and Terran. Those three faction have been balanced since they dont really make the same thing.

You can get a better set of power from another that for sure but in Starcraft you can have a better build too so this come to the same thing so please ... if you are a PvE player dont said its impossbile to balance PvP because you want developer to work on it.

Right.

And where did we get the term "Zerging" from again?

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:56 AM
PvP started in FPS and strategy games (think Command and Conquer). In these genres, the game was balanced. Every player knew what the capabilities of every other player were, because the game's parameters were pre-set and could not be altered, short of hacks.

wat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pong)

the l (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karate_Champ)

r u tlakin abot? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Fighter_%28video_game%29)

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:57 AM
You will never be able to balance PvP.

Ever.

Here's the thing:

PvP started in FPS and strategy games (think Command and Conquer). In these genres, the game was balanced. Every player knew what the capabilities of every other player were, because the game's parameters were pre-set and could not be altered, short of hacks.


i have to stop reading here to reply...

ultima online... released 12-13 years ago. it was ffa full looting pvp...

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 08:58 AM
Right.

Gotcha.

But then, you can whine that somebody on your team was not buffed enough or too nerfed to have been useful.

Simply put, PVP - team or single player based - in an MMO will never be balanced enough to make a majority of players agree that it is fair.

The majority will always shout that somebody else has an advantage and balance will never be achieved.

i agree to a certain extent, but look its a superhero mmo, and the choice of powers/builds on offer make it impossible to balance 100%

but there is time yet and they still havent made there intentions for pvp clear so its not a major concern yet.
also out of intrest what level pvp are you refering too?

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:01 AM
I think people are underestimating the task of balancing a game where you can have almost ANY power of ANY kind from a pool of MANY powers. There are millions of combinations. Comparing that to pong, street fighter or even Starcraft is just silly.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:03 AM
WHAT THE ****!?!

Its possible to balance PvP...

Like you said Strategy game is a good example. If we take by exemple Starcraft, there is three faction whic is Zerg, Proton and Terran. Those three faction have been balanced since they dont really make the same thing.

You can get a better set of power from another that for sure but in Starcraft you can have a better build too so this come to the same thing so please ... if you are a PvE player dont said its impossbile to balance PvP because you want developer to work on it.

erm... what?

so, since i can choose a dozen powers from a hundred+ powers (obviously a dozen new powers being added in october with that patch), how do you "balance" all the possible choices i can make, versus all the possible power/equipment choices the 8 people i'm fighting can make?

it's pretty easy, by comparison, to balance out the three factions in starcraft, since you will always only have the 2 or 3 upgrades for X unit.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:04 AM
Beer at 11am is sweet.. Time to get my drink on!
And to anyone who ive killed in PvP...
I love you :D

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:04 AM
I think people are underestimating the task of balancing a game where you can have almost ANY power of ANY kind from a pool of MANY powers. There are millions of combinations. Comparing that to pong, street fighter or even Starcraft is just silly.


I know Starcraft its not the best example but its show how its work. You have also alot of combinaison in Starcraft. You can choose to mass one unit, use two units, to rush ect. But in champions online u decide the power you gonna use. I know its hard to balance a game that have alot of combinaison but im pretty sure there is a lot of good build.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:09 AM
i agree to a certain extent, but look its a superhero mmo, and the choice of powers/builds on offer make it impossible to balance 100%

but there is time yet and they still havent made there intentions for pvp clear so its not a major concern yet.
also out of intrest what level pvp are you refering too?

good point -- solo pvp vs team pvp vs ffa pvp... or ffa pvp where three of you are working together and 7 other people are truly ffa'ing it.

although, that might not be what you meant by level + pvp... i still think it factors into "balancing" powers for pvp.



if you have two characters built exactly the same way, with exactly the same "equipment", exactly the same latency, exactly the same (spouse/child/pet/phone/neighbors/tv/etc) distractions; then, and pretty much only then - can you start to consider balancing, IF actual player skill (not what a player BELIEVES his/her skill to be) is roughly the same.


otherwise... "oh mini mines are so overpowered", yet i see some people that have no problems defeating folks using mini mines. which shows me, definitively, that mini mines can be defeated, and from participating in some of those fights, they can be defeated quite easily.

if a power can be taken and, in pvp, everyone that takes that power defeats everyone else the vast majority of the time... and i'm not talking about one person, i'm talking about every person that takes the power... then do some data mining and figure out if the people losing are not blocking, not taking defenses, all taking the same defense, etc. don't just assume that nerfing a certain power's ability will fix ANYTHING -- that is outright stupid.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:09 AM
I don't WANT balanced PvP, personally. Best times I ever had in PvP was playing an underpowered class in Anarchy Online, and figuring out ways to compensate for my crappy abilities. If you manage to win with a clunker, you feel like you actually did something, lol. Winning in a balanced setting? You won a coin toss, who f'ing cares.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:17 AM
I don't WANT balanced PvP, personally. Best times I ever had in PvP was playing an underpowered class in Anarchy Online, and figuring out ways to compensate for my crappy abilities. If you manage to win with a clunker, you feel like you actually did something, lol. Winning in a balanced setting? You won a coin toss, who f'ing cares.

Everyone say that melee suck in PvP.. Im currently playing a Dual Blade and doing it fine in 3v3 fight ... i know i suck in 1v1 but still be able to make a difference in more than 1v1 fight .. Im totally agree with you. The PvP its not balanced right now but im still be able to play a decent melee power set since everyone said that they suck in PvP

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:21 AM
Elephants Shower With Their Nose!

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:22 AM
I know Starcraft its not the best example but its show how its work. You have also alot of combinaison in Starcraft. You can choose to mass one unit, use two units, to rush ect. But in champions online u decide the power you gonna use. I know its hard to balance a game that have alot of combinaison but im pretty sure there is a lot of good build.

it really isn't the same type of balancing.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:23 AM
Im sorry but your argument is based around single player games, this is a multiplayer game where hopefull teams/sg will be able to slug it out
im not flaming just offering counter points

I'll bite. I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

Chess wins by a fair margin, or you know two peasants throwing stones at a wall
A: Each player has the same pieces in chess, the same capabilities, etc. The outcome is highly and solely dependent on skill.

Yes but what about tech powering the game, difrrent mouse dpi setting, voice comms and map knowledge
A: User hardware is a user's responsibility, mouse settings come from user knowledge, voice comms are free for all to use, and map knowledge comes with and from skill. All of these are non-factors in balance.

Im multiplayer RTS games A cribed build plan beats all
A: Everyone can use that plan and the game will still be reliant on skill and Micro'ing skills/knowledge.

Not always, lagg and pc equipment can affect the outcome
A: Again, a player's responsibility, not the game's. If there is global lag, one can then argue each player is on even footing with lag issues. More often than not, lag on one person's PC is their own fault.

check out the complete revamp of DOW2
A: Never played, can't comment.

well its a team game solo pvp isnt a part of it so you will start to see inventive premades fighting it out soon enough.
A: And once those are fighting, players will be on even ground, using the same builds with roughly the same items.

Again not a single player game m8
A: Why does a game have to be single player to be balanced?

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
I don't WANT balanced PvP, personally. Best times I ever had in PvP was playing an underpowered class in Anarchy Online, and figuring out ways to compensate for my crappy abilities. If you manage to win with a clunker, you feel like you actually did something, lol. Winning in a balanced setting? You won a coin toss, who f'ing cares.

Amen to that Union Man. Nothing feels better than spanking an uber build. I say leave room for the underdog.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
All they have to do is make powers work differently on players and then they can spend the rest of their lives attempting to balance PvP and no longer hurt PvE. The game already knows when you are targeting a player so it is simply a matter of having a "different version" of the same ability that is applied to another player. It could be seamless from the players point of view and they would just add a section to the description that explains the powers PvP effect.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
In CO, (since we are using chess as an example) you can make every piece a queen.
Essentially the system is balanced, because every power is available. The flaw comes in what is chosen, not what's available.

So to balance PVP (ideally) any change that affects the FOTM builds should warrant a full respec. Ya know, since we are theory crafting and all :)

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:26 AM
I do agree , none had perfect balance or some class will just be useless AKA the healer /or the support class. It will be more like a rock paper scissors imo.

But they can try hard to achieve every class can beat every class it will never happen . There will be always a balance issues in one of the skill's etc..
you sound like the whiners in GW, when there is something they need to thing for they whine.
there is always a way to counter something regardless of how good the other build is, only obvious overpowered skills need nerving.
it's a difference between having a skill that does 200 dmg and a skill that does 2000 dmg, the 200 can be countered, the 2000 needs a nerf.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:31 AM
I'll bite. I enjoy playing devil's advocate.

Chess wins by a fair margin, or you know two peasants throwing stones at a wall
A: Each player has the same pieces in chess, the same capabilities, etc. The outcome is highly and solely dependent on skill.

not in the contex of the question i answerd about where pvp began

Yes but what about tech powering the game, difrrent mouse dpi setting, voice comms and map knowledge
A: User hardware is a user's responsibility, mouse settings come from user knowledge, voice comms are free for all to use, and map knowledge comes with and from skill. All of these are non-factors in balance.

Therefore for it to be balanced you need to guys on equal rigs on a lan

Im multiplayer RTS games A cribed build plan beats all
A: Everyone can use that plan and the game will still be reliant on skill and Micro'ing skills/knowledge.

skill and knowledge arnt the same thing

Not always, lagg and pc equipment can affect the outcome
A: Again, a player's responsibility, not the game's. If there is global lag, one can then argue each player is on even footing with lag issues. More often than not, lag on one person's PC is their own fault.

so what if im playing on a sever in the us from the uk?

check out the complete revamp of DOW2
A: Never played, can't comment.

massive whole sale changes to balance

well its a team game solo pvp isnt a part of it so you will start to see inventive premades fighting it out soon enough.
A: And once those are fighting, players will be on even ground, using the same builds with roughly the same items.

i dont know what you mean here

Again not a single player game m8
A: Why does a game have to be single player to be balanced?

he was takling about balance in an mmo comapred to a singleplayer/fps type enviroment thats why

you bite like toothless granny sir!

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:31 AM
You have to look at thi game like a Tradeable Card Game really.

What happens in a Tradeable Card Game Tournament environment is that you have pre-existing sets of cards. From those sets, you have some cards that are more powerful than others. A metagame starts to form based on the "good cards". Good cards all have certain counters which makes other decks viable even though they're not that stong, but they're strong against a deck that may be much of the tournament field.

That's kind of how this game works....if ice is OP...a random ice resistance skill might be useful in builds.

When new sets come out or balance changes are made it will effect this metagame that will form. It's actually even more complicated than that, since in pvp it's not just about your build. It's about putting out a certain strategy in your 5 man team. It actually gets pretty interesting.

But to the OP's point. Yes, no game is actually ever balanced, it kind of happens in waves. Ice may be op for now, but 6 months down the line it might be crap and Dual Blades might be king.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:34 AM
You have to look at thi game like a Tradeable Card Game really.

What happens in a Tradeable Card Game Tournament environment is that you have pre-existing sets of cards. From those sets, you have some cards that are more powerful than others. A metagame starts to form based on the "good cards". Good cards all have certain counters which makes other decks viable even though they're not that stong, but they're strong against a deck that may be much of the tournament field.

That's kind of how this game works....if ice is OP...a random ice resistance skill might be useful in builds.

When new sets come out or balance changes are made it will effect this metagame that will form. It's actually even more complicated than that, since in pvp it's not just about your build. It's about putting out a certain strategy in your 5 man team. It actually gets pretty interesting.

But to the OP's point. Yes, no game is actually ever balanced, it kind of happens in waves. Ice may be op for now, but 6 months down the line it might be crap and Dual Blades might be king.

now your just adding a level of geekery that burns BURNS I TELL THEE!

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 09:41 AM
you sound like the whiners in GW, when there is something they need to thing for they whine.
there is always a way to counter something regardless of how good the other build is, only obvious overpowered skills need nerving.
it's a difference between having a skill that does 200 dmg and a skill that does 2000 dmg, the 200 can be countered, the 2000 needs a nerf.

Speaking as a former GW player, no, there's not always a way to counter something. I remember quite a few times in the history of that game where PvP was all about one build that no one could counter. For instance, during Nightfall Beta Weekend, Dervishes were abusing the deal-damage-on-miss mechanics of Sand Shards and a couple other skills combined with Signet of Midnight to deal astounding amounts of DPS. So much so that healing was in fact pointless, the healing couldn't keep up. As such, everyone ran eight Dervishes and spammed Sand Shards in HA. Luckily, the build was nerfed ten hours after it became possible, but, there have multiple builds just like this, such as Blood Sprike in its prime. Yes, they were overpowered as hell and were nerfed accordingly, but, the fact of the matter was that there absolutely was no counter. You HAD to play that one build.

Anyhoo, to address the point of this topic, it's certainly is possible to balance PvP. Skills can be made to be equally useful in certain situations. The issue with MMO PvP in this case is gear disparity. There's a reason why WHEN IT WAS BALANCED, Guild Wars was by far the best balanced MMO with regards to PvP, and that's because everyone had equal access to gear when they made PvP characters. Yes, skills and some items still had to be unlocked in the beginning, but, you could acquire anything you wanted extremely quickly, so, it didn't matter. Also, you could PvE to unlock stuff for PvP, so, if you PvEd for a bit (and we're talking extremely casual PvE, nothing like raids where you had to invest hours at a time), you could hop into PvP immediately with no disadvantages.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 10:01 AM
It may very well be impossible to balance PvP completely, but it is not impossible to minimize the power diffences between skill trees. It is undeniable that certain skills are a LOT more powerful than their counterparts. That is what needs to be fixed.

For example, why are there certain travel powers that are incredible survival tools, while there are others that are just plain useless/broken?
Why are there more effective energy builders, shouldn't they be the same for all trees, seeing as they are the standard attacks in this game?
Why do certain Charge skills produce incredibly useful crowd-control effects, at low energy costs even, while others are expensive, deal mediocre damage and don't even apply any (decent) effects?

Make ALL skills useful. That is all we are asking for. No more, no less.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 10:12 AM
Anyone can have the best character, they just have to want to play it.

The problem here is that people want to play a toon they think they like the sound of then they realise they have to sacrifice uniqueness (which the game promoters seem quite big on I have to say) for uberness, when they realise this they're not happy, and because the build isn't so great in PvP they demand nerfs of other skills that other players use.

What concerns me a lot is how the shouting and moaning in the PvP forums will effect the PvE. i personally don't want to get nerfed for the sole purpose of keeping the PvPers happy. i like doing occasional PvP but don't demand to win and find the fun in participation rather than domination.

Agreed some skills seem a little overpowered in PvE aswell so maybe this how the skills should be balanced because untill there are set classes which quite frankly would ruin the entire game then the PvP will never find a state of balance.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 10:27 AM
I'm still just chuckling at the OP where he said RTS's were, by nature, balanced. Apparently he wasn't gaming in the days before, during, and immediately after StarCraft was launched. There was PLENTY of unbalance, and it just kept going around. It took them YEARS to get it even somewhat balanced, and that's BLIZZARD, of all companies, we're talking about here.

With MMO's it's different because you usually have classes... much like the 'sides' of an RTS, except there's quite a few more of them. More importantly, with most MMO's, you had to worry about GEAR as well, which meant the time you put into other areas affected PvP. In this game, there ARE NO CLASSES, so that's removed entirely. There's gear issues, certainly, but they're not nearly as bad as, say, WoW, where gear matters completely before you can factor in skill.

Everyone can pick the same powers as everyone else. By 40, you can glut yourself with pretty much any power in the game, even a pile of Tier 3's. Anyone else can do this, too. So the imblance will exist within the individual powers. Anyone here remember pre-launch Thunderbolt Lunge? Horribly, horribly broken power. MOST of the horribly broken powers have been clubbed to death like a baby seal by the Dev's nerf bats (there's still a couple that have squipped by, but they're on notice).

Once the uber-nuke-nerfing is complete, you'll see a time of heavy-handed nerfing, followed by more-or-less-resonable nerfing, then a little minor clubibng here and there, followed by the gentlest of baby-love-tap nerfing. The Devs have pretty much stated over and over that this is their plan. By then, assuming anyone else is left, it'll be mostly balanced... for individual powers.

Except now there's power synergy to worry about. Because while all powers might end up 'more or less' equal, some when combined will be more equal than others.

Remember, when StarCraft first came out, it was common knowledge and accepted wisdom that it was completely impossible to balance more than two sides that have completely different units. Took SC and a few years after its release to prove that wrong. Now it's "merely very difficult", not "impossible".

This game will be similar.

---

The main problem I have, too, is how PvP nerfs effect PvP. Now, in some cases, some stuff REALLY needed it, no matter which side of the fence you were on. Pyre was broke, Thunderbolt Lunge was broke, old eye beams were slightly broke too, all the Defensive Passives were broke, Mini Mines are still broke, etc. Some of these definitely needed fixing. The problem will come when the smaller-grade nerfs start, as the Devs have unnfortunately stated that 'the game will play the same in PvE and PvP'. We'll have to see where that goes, but I'm not holding my breath. I'd just like NOT to have all the PvE'ers affected by major changes in PvP.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 10:34 AM
Im sorry but your argument is based around single player games, this is a multiplayer game where hopefull teams/sg will be able to slug it out.

Ah, FPS and RTS games are where competitive team based games were hammered on the anvil of sorrow, and cooled in the tears of newbs. Quake, for instance, was team based PvP game structures before there were online comps.

Archived Post
09-14-2009, 11:52 AM
you bite like toothless granny sir!

Alright then sir, let us have another go.

not in the contex of the question i answerd about where pvp began
A: I apologize and concede the question then.

Therefore for it to be balanced you need to guys on equal rigs on a lan
A: So, in your point of view, the consumer is responsible for balance as well as the developer? I find that balance falls solely in the realm of the developer. If the "rules" of the game are balanced, then it is the consumers prerogative to take their own advantage. If balance relied on the specs of a consumer rig, no game on earth will ever be balanced, unless the game developer provides an unalterable rig to each consumer who purchases the game.

skill and knowledge arnt the same thing
A: So you're trying to tell me that you can be extremely skilled in a game whilst having no knowledge of it whatsoever? Or that you can have the most extensive knowledge base among the consumer community and not have something to show for it? I call shenanigans sir.

Not always, lagg and pc equipment can affect the outcome
A: Again, a player's responsibility, not the game's. If there is global lag, one can then argue each player is on even footing with lag issues. More often than not, lag on one person's PC is their own fault.

so what if im playing on a sever in the us from the uk?
A: Here's a quick and dirty speed test from where I am in Chicago IL, to London UK.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/565106138.png - Chicago to Chicago
http://www.speedtest.net/result/565104733.png - Chicago to London
Downstream speeds like that will have no noticible effect on gameplay going from either end.
Ping difference is 0.1 second. I will concede this makes a difference in a game like an FPS where split second shots count, but in this game, I say no dice.

If a consumer is bogging down their own connection with other downloads, streams, etc. It is their own fault, not the developers'.

massive whole sale changes to balance
A: Again, having not played the game, I won't comment.

i dont know what you mean here
A: I mean that once players are using cookie cutter builds with similar gear (Which you cannot deny goes with a build), they will be on even footing, bringing skill with the cookie cutter build to the forefront.

he was takling about balance in an mmo comapred to a singleplayer/fps type enviroment thats why
A: A single player game has much less need to be balanced no matter what genre it is from.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:02 AM
Alright then sir, let us have another go.

not in the contex of the question i answerd about where pvp began
A: I apologize and concede the question then.

Therefore for it to be balanced you need to guys on equal rigs on a lan
A: So, in your point of view, the consumer is responsible for balance as well as the developer? I find that balance falls solely in the realm of the developer. If the "rules" of the game are balanced, then it is the consumers prerogative to take their own advantage. If balance relied on the specs of a consumer rig, no game on earth will ever be balanced, unless the game developer provides an unalterable rig to each consumer who purchases the game.

skill and knowledge arnt the same thing
A: So you're trying to tell me that you can be extremely skilled in a game whilst having no knowledge of it whatsoever? Or that you can have the most extensive knowledge base among the consumer community and not have something to show for it? I call shenanigans sir.

Not always, lagg and pc equipment can affect the outcome
A: Again, a player's responsibility, not the game's. If there is global lag, one can then argue each player is on even footing with lag issues. More often than not, lag on one person's PC is their own fault.

so what if im playing on a sever in the us from the uk?
A: Here's a quick and dirty speed test from where I am in Chicago IL, to London UK.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/565106138.png - Chicago to Chicago
http://www.speedtest.net/result/565104733.png - Chicago to London
Downstream speeds like that will have no noticible effect on gameplay going from either end.
Ping difference is 0.1 second. I will concede this makes a difference in a game like an FPS where split second shots count, but in this game, I say no dice.

If a consumer is bogging down their own connection with other downloads, streams, etc. It is their own fault, not the developers'.

massive whole sale changes to balance
A: Again, having not played the game, I won't comment.

i dont know what you mean here
A: I mean that once players are using cookie cutter builds with similar gear (Which you cannot deny goes with a build), they will be on even footing, bringing skill with the cookie cutter build to the forefront.

he was takling about balance in an mmo comapred to a singleplayer/fps type enviroment thats why
A: A single player game has much less need to be balanced no matter what genre it is from.

We are going in circles tbh, so i think we may as well leave it alone, but was fun and didnt degrade into screaming NOOB!!!1!1 at each other.

/hugs

vasagi

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:19 AM
I live for the day that AIs in MMOs will be sentient. Then I can go around terminating cookie cutter sentient entities who can comprehend their own demise. Watch them as they freak out that if they die, they just get replaced by the spawner, but the player always comes back.

You may occasionally see times where AIs who have managed to survive long enough end up banding together and huddle into one area to ensure maximum survival against players. Then players will just treat it like a fun raid and the AIs will die, only to be replaced with fresh AIs with no cognitive knowledge beyond what they are cookie cut with.

That will be a glorious day.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:21 AM
I realized this simple truth the very first time I played an MMO with PvE and PvP. Unfortunately developers try their best to even things out. Some things you'll just never fix.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:33 AM
Maybe I should find a way to get on the teams wit the best PvP players. That'll help some because my damage output and survivability in PvP seems to be pretty low, so I'd be a liability for them lol.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:36 AM
It may very well be impossible to balance PvP completely, but it is not impossible to minimize the power diffences between skill trees. It is undeniable that certain skills are a LOT more powerful than their counterparts. That is what needs to be fixed.

For example, why are there certain travel powers that are incredible survival tools, while there are others that are just plain useless/broken?
Why are there more effective energy builders, shouldn't they be the same for all trees, seeing as they are the standard attacks in this game?
Why do certain Charge skills produce incredibly useful crowd-control effects, at low energy costs even, while others are expensive, deal mediocre damage and don't even apply any (decent) effects?

Make ALL skills useful. That is all we are asking for. No more, no less.


Because it is not primarily a PvP game?

I'm not interested in a primarily PvP game, and I'm not interested in a game where the powers are balanced around PvP. PvP and PvE are totally different games, look at those complaining about lack of agro control, that is a PvE concept. AI mobs work differently to real players and therefore powers that are balanced for PvP may be way out of kilter in PvE. Then of course there is simple concept, I like to build to some concept, I'm not bothered if Power A allows great escape ability and Power B doesn't. Teleport may be the 'only' travel for PvP (so I gather anyway) but I've yet to take it.

IMO the worst thing that CoX did was introduce PvP, it wouldn't have been so bad if they just left the powers as they were and told players that the gave them PvP as requested but that they would have to live within the paramters of a PvE game. Instead they ended up with practically 2 different sets of rules, and people complaining about their PvE toon not being any use in PvP and vice versa.

The problem with PvP is not balance, it is players who take it way to seriously.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:38 AM
Right.

And where did we get the term "Zerging" from again?

Bringing this in from page 1.

Win statement.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:48 AM
It may very well be impossible to balance PvP completely, but it is not impossible to minimize the power diffences between skill trees. It is undeniable that certain skills are a LOT more powerful than their counterparts. That is what needs to be fixed.

For example, why are there certain travel powers that are incredible survival tools, while there are others that are just plain useless/broken?
Why are there more effective energy builders, shouldn't they be the same for all trees, seeing as they are the standard attacks in this game?
Why do certain Charge skills produce incredibly useful crowd-control effects, at low energy costs even, while others are expensive, deal mediocre damage and don't even apply any (decent) effects?

Make ALL skills useful. That is all we are asking for. No more, no less.

This right here is what matters not even for PVP, PVE wise why would you go with a weaker power, for concept of course but then you always look at the other guy and his better power.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 02:48 AM
When it comes to balance in any way shapr or form, the CO design team, Jackalope in particular, completely screwed the pooch from the outset. They completely ignored the real strength of the PnP game, which is that it was internally point balanced, and made a typical MMO no internal structure to power design percantile based kluge.

Champions PnP had a system where everything started with a based set of powers that were weighted in core cost due more or less to effectiveness. Each of these powers was then modified by advantages and limitaions that increased or decreased the cost of said power.

CO has a bunch of powers with exponential variance in their effectiveness that all cost exactly the same . . 1 point. There is no possible way that such a mechanic can ever be even remotely balanced. This is the real core reason that PvP will never be balanced within CO.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 03:59 AM
When it comes to balance in any way shapr or form, the CO design team, Jackalope in particular, completely screwed the pooch from the outset. They completely ignored the real strength of the PnP game, which is that it was internally point balanced, and made a typical MMO no internal structure to power design percantile based kluge.

Champions PnP had a system where everything started with a based set of powers that were weighted in core cost due more or less to effectiveness. Each of these powers was then modified by advantages and limitaions that increased or decreased the cost of said power.

CO has a bunch of powers with exponential variance in their effectiveness that all cost exactly the same . . 1 point. There is no possible way that such a mechanic can ever be even remotely balanced. This is the real core reason that PvP will never be balanced within CO.

have you ever played the system cuz I have the book and I can tell you for a fact that without a GM to come smack you and say NO! you can build some waaayyy OP things. so in other words the game/devs are the ones doing the smack and saying no.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 04:24 AM
have you ever played the system cuz I have the book and I can tell you for a fact that without a GM to come smack you and say NO! you can build some waaayyy OP things. so in other words the game/devs are the ones doing the smack and saying no.

Extensively. To the point of using it as a core for custom designed rule systems.

When the devs build the game they already have control over which advantages and limitations are in the game. No logic to handle such and it doesn't exist. I have to wonder why no one seems to be able to comprehend that simple fact. I've had his argument many times and that is always conveniently ignored.

As yet no one has yet no has ever wanted to take up the argument on the basis, the Champions PnP system is internally point balanced. Not perfectly but far more so than any MMO internal random powers system.

Everyone just goes "OMFG you have to have a GM to play a game that is designed to be played with a GM".

Now if the devs only implement advantages and limitation that are supported internally with the code, do you want to explain how you need a GM to moderate the usage of such a mechanics?

Also do you have anything to say about the CO system not being internally point balanced and therefor being impossible to ever really balance in any way shape or form? That was the point of the post, not to elicit your standard knee jerk reaction.

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 04:42 AM
It may not be balanced but its fun........most of the time!

Archived Post
09-15-2009, 05:29 AM
It may not be balanced but its fun........most of the time!

This from the guy that just rage quit?

Archived Post
09-17-2009, 10:12 AM
I live for the day that AIs in MMOs will be sentient. Then I can go around terminating cookie cutter sentient entities who can comprehend their own demise. Watch them as they freak out that if they die, they just get replaced by the spawner, but the player always comes back.

You may occasionally see times where AIs who have managed to survive long enough end up banding together and huddle into one area to ensure maximum survival against players. Then players will just treat it like a fun raid and the AIs will die, only to be replaced with fresh AIs with no cognitive knowledge beyond what they are cookie cut with.

That will be a glorious day.

This is the single most awesomely disturbing thing in the history of forever.