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View Full Version : Suddnely, i am waaay much more skilled...


Archived Post
09-05-2009, 09:55 AM
if you dont like LONG WELL THOUGHT OUT WALLS OF TEXTS skip to the TL/DR section at the bottom.

Ok, when i bought CO i was swearing to myself - i WONT focus on PvP, i will stick to PvE fun with my friends and family.

That promise i broke, of course. Just a few words - i am a gaming vet and PvP junky (competitive starcraft and Q2 is where it all started), WoW S3 glad, pre BC rank 11, DotA addict, i can go on.
Not to brag - actually nothing to brag about those stats are usual for a lot of people who love competitive gaming - just to assure you i do have some experience.

So i love melee. I always end up with a melee char in almost any game i play that give me an option to play melee, barb/paladin in diablo, warrior/rogue/ench sham in WoW, monk in EQ2, every game that let me play a melee got me as melee.

So i started a melee char, of course, a laser knight PA build, and for a pure fun and aesthetic part of it. Not like it sucked in 20s bracket, at all. i still could contribute to team with thunderbolt lunge > 3/4 LS striker to take down focused target while i was really hard to kill, even on the offense. But i felt so jealous seeing those 14-0 records from some of the others, and also i was rather annoyed by same guys while they were in the opposite teams.

So i made another char, just for fun, melee, ofc. Dual ego blade shadow form bronze goddess. geez she is so sexy. i took teleport to try it out in PvP and a channeled heal to play a strike/vanish tactics. needles to say i failed terribly - TK snare simply doesnt work so i spent most of my time flying and healing, while being chased by shotgan/minimines/force blast/condemn/electrocute/taser arrow spamming crowd.

my usual score was like - 3-1, or 0-0 even because its really hard to land a kill on a smart TP player, only if he wants to take risk.

So what i did, i bet you already guessed - i said - ok thats enough i am going to minmax myself. so i made a ice shards/force blast/condemn/regenerate/force shield/TP/Con superstat monstrocity.

all of a sudden, a am extremely skilled. 14-0 every third game, 1-2 deaths at max, i laugh in the face of shotgun/miners, because - for real, force/condemn(electrocute/taser arrow) is so much more dangerous build.

you might say - wow, you compare a min/max character to a random fun character. no i dont. i compare ranged framework + specific balance breaking abilities with everything else. my TK and PA characters were designed with PvP in mind still their POWER LEVEL is not even over 1k, while my Force char is over 9 thousand, for shizzle.
in no game you can see that kind of balance, at least that comes to my mind. in WoW or a WaR on early level literally every class can compete with others, ofc there are options that are stronger then others but not by that margin. Twinks in WoW are nonrelevant since you need to spend a lot of time/gold to develop one, they are not ability based.

TL/DR, or my constructive feedback to devs.
1. Teleport (and burrowing) MUST go, sadly. in current version its absolutely, grossly imbalanced. In no way you should have a short cooldown power that removes any threat from you in PvP. Either a really long cooldoown should be put on it, or ability to still target and shoot through teleport when the player is visible/near, or any other that devs will find appropriate. right now - its a mess.
2. Melee should be rethought and reworked. Melee snares should be more powerful then ranged (sup Chill!), have shorter CD (sup Chill! oh wait!) and be more reliable. Also with big enough lag its really hard to register a melee special on a running/travel power using player at all - basically you can HIT with your melee non energy builder only when your target is snared or stunned.
2.1 Melee should have a reliable and easy way to overcome/remove active blocking. to be effective, melee character should maintain a very close range to his target. with snare immunity its very hard to actually maintain pressure on a target because a smart player will simply block your series after snare application and then run away with immunity leaving you with no option and utterly dropping your effectiveness in time.
3. Knockback should give some sort of immunity, but this was said too much times already and is rather obvious.
4. some abilities MUST be toned down/tweaked, Minimines are first on this list. no matter how much stupid arguments those who defend them present (LOL DONT GO IN THEM! LOL IRON LARIAT/SPAM THEM WHILE HELD/KNOCKDOWN!) they are absolutely stupid right now - too much damage for too small effort.

final words - please note i am NOT trying to forge a competitive gaming level PvP, thats impossible right. these advices are merely and attempt to make PvP in his game FUN for a broader audience.

At least i play because that thing.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:15 AM
This is pretty much what I said in my thread about teleporting has to stop. The difference in a min/max build and concept fun build (and I'm including in this any build without TP and a 100-0 combo) is too great. If it could be quantified mathematically, 2x or 3x better is reasonable. But we're talking a guy with teleport and any of the 100-0 combos being at least 10 times better than a concept hero. And thats being generous because technically unless the guy with teleport dies because he is too dumb to know when to run, he'll never die, which is hard to quantify.


I dont even know if I should care because no one should be playing this game for pvp. There will never be any epeen or esports or online fame associated with it. Maybe it should just be a imbalanced bunch of TP assassins.

This game has such a long way to go to balance things I don't know if it will ever be done. Even if they changed the handful of currently ridiculous skills they'd still need to change some very basic things like melee inadequacy. And then there's still a bunch of semi OP skills, such as the ice energy builder being far superior to all other energy builders. Because of chill. I actually made a fire / archery PVP guy with the ice energy builder. I purposefully gimped myself skill selection wise for 15 levels. Because its that much better than the archery or fire energy builders. And thats just what I consider a 'semi OP' skill.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:23 AM
I never had much problems with burrow, but haven't run into a ton of people who use it. I feel the wind-up time for it in pvp is just right. It takes so long to get in and out of it, that they are out of the fight much longer than the time they're actually invulnerable.

I think they could fix teleport without outright "nerfing" it.
Don't let people use potions while teleporting. Give them the 15 second penalty when they come out of teleport again - it's just complete garbage that I can repeatedly teleport while being attacked.
These changes will still leave teleport as the best "get out of jail" travel power.

I know you can beat teleporters, and I know this thread will get a lot of "game is fine l2p" responses. Having said that, I challenge anyone who defends teleport as being balanced with the other travel powers to come up with a build that benefits more from superjump / acrobatics than teleport.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:28 AM
I know you can beat teleporters, and I know this thread will get a lot of "game is fine l2p" responses. Having said that, I challenge anyone who defends teleport as being balanced with the other travel powers to come up with a build that benefits more from superjump / acrobatics than teleport.

Guaranteed that anyone who defends teleport by saying "l2p" is using it as a cructh because they're just so excited that they found a game they're apparently awesome at after being mediocre/bad in everything else. Anyone with any skill or basic game design/balancing ability knows its OP. My two gladiator partners for 5 seasons watched me pvp for less than 2 minutes and both concluded teleport was the most broken ability they've ever seen. This is despite the fact I was doing combos that fully killed a guy where he was only in control of his character the first few seconds (even then it was a root).


But then again, if this is what we're starting from, its going to be a while before PvP is balanced. Which is okay because to me and most others this is a pve game strictly.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:50 AM
if you dont like LONG WELL THOUGHT OUT WALLS OF TEXTS skip to the TL/DR section at the bottom.



Glad I did. sounds basically like the other 500 crybaby..."WAAA this is too overpowered and im lazy to get the counter so ima go cry on the forum" posts. sorry if i misinturpreted tho.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:52 AM
Glad I did. sounds basically like the other 500 crybaby..."WAAA this is too overpowered and im lazy to get the counter so ima go cry on the forum" posts. sorry if i misinturpreted tho.

I know this thread will get a lot of "game is fine l2p" responses. Having said that, I challenge anyone who defends teleport as being balanced with the other travel powers to come up with a build that benefits more from superjump / acrobatics than teleport.

I'm throwing down the gauntlet!

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:14 AM
I know you can beat teleporters, and I know this thread will get a lot of "game is fine l2p" responses. Having said that, I challenge anyone who defends teleport as being balanced with the other travel powers to come up with a build that benefits more from superjump / acrobatics than teleport.


My Dualblade (Dual AXES) Lightning reflex/Bionic shielding toon would love to meet you, his office is the third on the right down the long hall to your left

TP is great on him....for PVE, for PVP, Acro makes him a f*****g NIGHTMARE snare/AOE spamfest who's tougher to bring down that a regen because he's dex-stacked to upwards of 84% odd dodge WITHOUT masterful dodge clicked on

Acro lets him abuse speed AND jumping to make him nearly impossible to follow in a fight, DB's energy return means i can just spam any number of heavy hits in a chain without ever using energy, and i crit almost every hit for upwards of 200 odd damage at 14, with even eye of the storm spam

Now obviously, at 14 my options are hilariously limited as to what i can do in pvp, but i still hold my own, if i can pull someone alone, or i'm the last person standing, it requires a LOT of dumb luck and timing to break him down, since any dodge from him turns into a mini-unbreakable

but hey, i'm just a teleporter on every toon i have (even him, Currently, it helps with the levelling as melee pure (Stupid F-----g range)) i mean, what do I know about abusing travel powers, line of sight, and stacking the right stats for "Terrible" abilities? :p

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:18 AM
You can't outrun or catch up with anything when chilled in acrobatics. Teleport speeds is unaffected by it.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:22 AM
I never had much problems with burrow, but haven't run into a ton of people who use it. I feel the wind-up time for it in pvp is just right. It takes so long to get in and out of it, that they are out of the fight much longer than the time they're actually invulnerable.

I think they could fix teleport without outright "nerfing" it.
Don't let people use potions while teleporting. Give them the 15 second penalty when they come out of teleport again - it's just complete garbage that I can repeatedly teleport while being attacked.
These changes will still leave teleport as the best "get out of jail" travel power.

I know you can beat teleporters, and I know this thread will get a lot of "game is fine l2p" responses. Having said that, I challenge anyone who defends teleport as being balanced with the other travel powers to come up with a build that benefits more from superjump / acrobatics than teleport.

Just for the record I was fine with the way teleport was (the 15 second cooldown). However I don't see how using two of the bottom travel powers as a baseline is helping things.

If you're going to "nerf" TP, then nerf everything. Flight, superspeed etc. should all get more suppression. Tell me it's not easy to fly around and regen at top speed. Can you use potions while in flight? If you can't in TP then why should you be able to in any other travel power?

Why shouldn't you be able to teleport while being attacked? Can you fly at top speed while being attacked? You are asking for a big nerf to one power without thinking about the rest.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:23 AM
My main problem with acrobatics is that you will need a flight power to not be at a disadvantage vs flying people, and then you wont be able to take teleport. Throwing crap at them or otherwise disabling their flight is not a long term solution because then your damage output becomes a sporadic chain of get them to the ground, do 1 attack, watch them fly up again. You have to repeat this like 10 times to kill anything, and somehow keep them from just flying away to heal, which is really a lot of work.

I like acrobatics, I think if everyone stayed on the ground it would be crazy, but so few people do that its tough to work with. And incidentally I see this as teleport's only weakness, the fact that you cannot use your close range attacks vs flying people and therefore see a cut in your damage output.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:28 AM
If you're going to "nerf" TP, then nerf everything. Flight, superspeed etc. should all get more suppression. Tell me it's not easy to fly around and regen at top speed. Can you use potions while in flight? If you can't in TP then why should you be able to in any other travel power?

Please note that I have specifically stated in several threads that I'd be perfectly happy if other travel powers got a buff to bring them in line with TP, instead of 'nerfing' TP.
I also use TP myself on my pvp characters, and accept that it's part of the metagame to pick whatever's the most powerful.

I don't take issue with TP making people invulnerable, because it doesn't. I only want the game to have more depth by making more choices viable.
Right now, TP is the pvp travel power while everything else is "concept build".

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:30 AM
Just for the record I was fine with the way teleport was (the 15 second cooldown). However I don't see how using two of the bottom travel powers as a baseline is helping things.

If you're going to "nerf" TP, then nerf everything. Flight, superspeed etc. should all get more suppression. Tell me it's not easy to fly around and regen at top speed. Can you use potions while in flight? If you can't in TP then why should you be able to in any other travel power?

Why shouldn't you be able to teleport while being attacked? Can you fly at top speed while being attacked? You are asking for a big nerf to one power without thinking about the rest.

Its not that easy to escape using flight. For one, when you're taking damage its not going to be top speed. Secondly, flying away at walking speed will usually result in some sort of CC that ends your dash for freedom.

TP suffers from neither of these things.

CC should be a way to contain runners. With every other power, you can use it at any time. With TP you have to use it BEFORE they want to TP, and hope that it lasts the entire duration of their health or they will TP. This effectively makes it dependent on how bad the guy with teleport is at predicting what is about to happen to him, because if he sees it coming he's gone.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:32 AM
My main problem with acrobatics is that you will need a flight power to not be at a disadvantage vs flying people, and then you wont be able to take teleport. Throwing crap at them or otherwise disabling their flight is not a long term solution because then your damage output becomes a sporadic chain of get them to the ground, do 1 attack, watch them fly up again. .


Wow dude. Seriously? One trick pony right there.


Get them to the ground, then keep them there. Thunderbolt Lunge is great for this (many people will tell you that TBL doesn't work while chilled - wrong. Many people may tell you that TBL isn't usable up close - also wrong.)

Basically you bring them down to the ground, throw a couple of attacks if you don't happen to have a pull and/or knockback or hold, then toss a TBL at them. All it takes is to jump, as TBL counts the jump as "moving towards them". This is also why TBL works perfectly fine while chilled.

Or y'know, you could do the same with any TP disabling power. If you purely rely on throwing stuff, well... Make sure you have plenty of stuff to throw.


I have a Claw character. I have never had a problem keeping people to the ground so I can beat on them. My personal favorite is Thunderbolt Lunge > Shuriken (with Kunai advantage) > Beat on them > Shuriken when they invariably try to back away (Shuriken has 1 second cooldown) > beat on them some more > TBL lunge again.


Works with people who have things like force eruption too, but you have to be a bit more careful about it.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:38 AM
You can't outrun or catch up with anything when chilled in acrobatics. Teleport speeds is unaffected by it.

Chill doesnt work, DB can spam roots on the ice player right off the bat, and i can kill them in a matter of 2 odd seconds of spam, followed by jumping LOS or similar to force them close to do anything

And besides, chill itself as we know it is hilariously imbalanced because it lasts forever, it's a 90% odd speed debuff and like the ego holds, taser arrow, etc. it doesn't properly have a temp disable attached to it's immunity to roots

Not to mention, good luck to the ice player trying to even hurt me, 99.99% of the time, they start a burst chain.....and then i dodge, watching that chain plink into a proc'd unbreakable for a WHOPPING......5 damage total

Yes, i'm so scared of you spamming chill attacks, roots, and knockbacks, that i'm going to stand here, blocktank through them (And be unaffected) and then root you and rip off your face

FTR: Dodges reduce KB and status effects, so by blocking with LR and maybe MD up, no effects can hit, effectively making him invincible until i stop blocking because dodges from LR give damage resist + Blocks resist

Honestly, Block needs fixed, Melee toons need a speed boost based on how many melee attacks they have (To keep up with range who are also using travel powers) Range-set melee attacks (Laser sword, chainsaw gauntlet, etc.) Need brought down in power level, being that a rank 1 laser sword hit can crit for 3x the damage of the equivalent true-melee power's crit, and actual melee sets need a major buff from a pvp standpoint, being that the damage rift between them and range is stupid

But honestly, lets look at how broken TP "Is" in CO, when in COX it didnt have a cooldown, and couldnt be followed because with max +range in it it jumped across a 1/3rd of a zone with almost no actual warning as to where you were going

Fix tunneling first, a click self +invulnerable that lasts indefinitely and CANT be broken or followed (Unlike tele, it's currently impossible to keep a target on tunnelers, because it's "Stealth" breaks it on cast)

i can chase down teleporters easy, and murder them, but gophers with regen make me want a giant whack-a-mole hammer to swing at them with my DB toon, but i'll settle for my current axes as big as the toon

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:41 AM
Wow dude. Seriously? One trick pony right there.


Get them to the ground, then keep them there. Thunderbolt Lunge is great for this (many people will tell you that TBL doesn't work while chilled - wrong. Many people may tell you that TBL isn't usable up close - also wrong.)

Basically you bring them down to the ground, throw a couple of attacks if you don't happen to have a pull and/or knockback or hold, then toss a TBL at them. All it takes is to jump, as TBL counts the jump as "moving towards them". This is also why TBL works perfectly fine while chilled.

Or y'know, you could do the same with any TP disabling power. If you purely rely on throwing stuff, well... Make sure you have plenty of stuff to throw.


I have a Claw character. I have never had a problem keeping people to the ground so I can beat on them. My personal favorite is Thunderbolt Lunge > Shuriken (with Kunai advantage) > Beat on them > Shuriken when they invariably try to back away (Shuriken has 1 second cooldown) > beat on them some more > TBL lunge again.


Works with people who have things like force eruption too, but you have to be a bit more careful about it.

I tried sort of something like this on a might guy. Hurl rock to disable the travel power, root with the might version of TBL (roots instead of disables but w/e), beat on them a bit, Iron lariat them back down when they fly away, beat on them a bit, throw another rock etc etc

In then end it's still way more work than just being ranged, and it depends on them doing nothing this whole time except trying to fly away. If they block most of your damage is gone. If they have a knockback, you're done, if you get CC'd you're done. Worse, if you're might (in my case) then most of your moves are extremely counterproductive since they knockback.

Even if you keep them on the ground, half your energy is going toward keeping them on the ground and preventing their 0 energy flying move.

And honestly "ranged" characters just means they dont have powers from might and the sword/martial arts. There is PLENTY of stuff they can do to you from being next to you. I actually start my fire/ice/archery combo from next to a guy ideally. If I see a guy charging me I just start charging up pyre so the first thing he gets when he finally gets in range is a 1500 damage knockback.


Finally, your claw character. Can you point out why it would not be better for you if you just had a flying ability and could do all this crap to someone without having to spend half your time keeping them on the ground. Thats the eventual conclusion I reached with my might guy. He was good. He wasnt getting 15 in UTC like I do with my OP ranged guy, but getting 9-0 was doable. But then eventually I stopped asking "how do I get them down" and started asking "why am I even trying to get them down when I can go up".

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:57 AM
Please note that I have specifically stated in several threads that I'd be perfectly happy if other travel powers got a buff to bring them in line with TP, instead of 'nerfing' TP.
I also use TP myself on my pvp characters, and accept that it's part of the metagame to pick whatever's the most powerful.

I don't take issue with TP making people invulnerable, because it doesn't. I only want the game to have more depth by making more choices viable.
Right now, TP is the pvp travel power while everything else is "concept build".

Fair enough. Just a few of the things you seemed to be saying were taking it a little too far IMO.

Its not that easy to escape using flight. For one, when you're taking damage its not going to be top speed. Secondly, flying away at walking speed will usually result in some sort of CC that ends your dash for freedom.

Taking damage does not induce suppression, inflicting damage does. Block when you are retreating, by the time the the hold bar ends you have a good chance at flying away at more than a walking pace. If you are deciding at 10% health to fly away, you were already dead.

TP suffers from neither of these things.

Tp suffers from vulnerability upon re-entry, right now unfortunately it is only if you attack upon re-entry. I fully support the 15 second cooldown upon re-entry, like it was. It was thrilling (will they get me or not?:D)

CC should be a way to contain runners. With every other power, you can use it at any time. With TP you have to use it BEFORE they want to TP, and hope that it lasts the entire duration of their health or they will TP. This effectively makes it dependent on how bad the guy with teleport is at predicting what is about to happen to him, because if he sees it coming he's gone.

For sure. It should not be guaranteed though. If I have you in a hold, you should have a chance of getting away, regardless of travel power.

Even when TP had the 15 second cooldown people still complained about it. It's one of those powers that will probably always be complained about. In the lava match I really don't find it beneficial at all. Flight and knockback are king there, should we ask those to be changed for one map? TP is currently king for the cage match only.

I use CC, and I generally don't have much problems taking down TPers. if they do get away, they are just making their teammates better targets as everyone shifts focus, and blammo, point for my team.

Really I think they could just start with fixing teleporting while held, and I think a lot of the complaining will cease.

I am agreeing with you guys that something should change, just not what that something is, I guess.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:59 AM
Chill doesnt work, DB can spam roots on the ice player right off the bat, and i can kill them in a matter of 2 odd seconds of spam, followed by jumping LOS or similar to force them close to do anything

But wouldn't he be able to do this with TP as well? How is acrobatics assisting him in doing all this better than TP ever would?

Blocking is easily negated these days as well. The only time you can ever block consistently is if you're playing against people who don't have a pvp build.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:00 PM
15 seconds I would be okay with. Somewhat. If they removed the ability to use it within root as well. But right now its 10! At least as of last night anyway. That extra 5 seconds is often what it would take to finish a guy.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:10 PM
It is more work, and it takes more skill. That's undeniable, just as it's undeniable that you're giving yourself and obvious weakness. But it's no more work than countering any other sort of weakness - it takes the right powers, stats, or gear.

Being "grounded" is just far more obvious to the naked eye than all the others, with the exception of holds. If they're blocking, you are still not fighting right. Let's face it, on the ground or in the air, ranged or melee, people still block. You can't use them blocking as an excuse to why your melee character isn't working, which is what you tried to do with the post I'm responding to.

"Ranged" means any character whose primary abilities and attacks are at a distance, be it 50, 100, or 120 feet. "Melee" means anything within the 7 foot melee range - which I consider to be too short in practice, but workable.

TBL, Hurl, etc actually do pretty good damage. I've never considered it a real sacrifice to put someone in a spot where I can unleash Dragon Claws in proper fashion.

Concerning my claw character:

I have a very good reason for wanting people on the ground instead of in the air. The air has a full, true XYZ 360 axis of movement. That is, they can move in any direction they desire to keep you at a distance. Now, bear in mind this is for a melee character trying to fly and hit people in the air with their melee abilities.

Whereas on the ground, you've effectively cut out their Z axis of movement. They can jump, but that won't do anything for them. It's much easier to keep them in the poor melee hitbox while they are on the ground rather than in the air.

Now, "why pick melee instead of any range character period?" is likely going to be your next question, so I'll preemptively answer that - It's a personal choice. I have, in any MMO or game, preferred ranged characters with the exception of the Touhou fighting series: Imperishable Night, Scarlet Weather Rhapsody and Unthinkable Natural Law.

I have friends who vastly prefer being a melee character, even knowing their inherent disadvantages (which they compensate for very well and have a lot of fun doing it.) If you don't like melee, the simple answer is don't play it. There's plenty who do, and do it well.


Concerning your Might character: 9/0 is not a bad record by any means. Proclaiming that Melee suck compared to range in every and all aspects, then claim a 9/0 match average record is contradictory. I've seen ranged characters do far, far worse. I've also seen many range characters fall very hard to a well built and skilled melee player.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:11 PM
15 seconds I would be okay with. Somewhat. If they removed the ability to use it within root as well. But right now its 10! At least as of last night anyway. That extra 5 seconds is often what it would take to finish a guy.

i also think that they should put a reuse timer on may be ALL of travel powers, so if you got hit with a travelpower remover you have to wait at least 5-8 seconds before you can try to reapply it.
also teleport recasting is absolutely dumb, you can tp out of holds and continue to chain TP forcing enemy team to switch to another target, then you can get healed and rejoin the fight.

its good to see that most people on boards understand these issues. l2p comments are as always hilarious.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:14 PM
I have friends who vastly prefer being a melee character, even knowing their inherent disadvantages (which they compensate for very well and have a lot of fun doing it.) If you don't like melee, the simple answer is don't play it. There's plenty who do, and do it well.



This is pretty much what I expected. You are playing because it is conceptually the class you want to play, even though it is at a disadvantage. Thats admirable that you are sticking to it and trying your best to make it work. Me, once I went down the line of thought of "why dont I just fly up there", the obvious next progression was "why dont I just get me some ranged powers" and that was that :)


Your 360 point is very good as well. What would help is if the auto follow target command worked in these situations, so you can stick to a guy a bit better without him juking a lot of your damage.

Sure if it is possible for a melee guy to outplay a ranged guy and win, but this really isnt an legit arguement. Superhuman effort on the player's part cant be required to balance a game in my opinion.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:23 PM
I have to disagree with changing tunneling. Unlike TP it's not instant and during the wind up time you're very vulnerable to attacks,hols, and other forms of CC. Quite a few times when I've used it I was held during the wind up time and until the hold breaks I'm attackable not just by aoe but all damage. Even after the hold has been released I can be attacked until the hole graphic(from my observation) has disappeared. Also I've had my tunneling canceled when uppercut, and knocked back a few times during the digging phase.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:30 PM
Your 360 point is very good as well. What would help is if the auto follow target command worked in these situations, so you can stick to a guy a bit better without him juking a lot of your damage.

Sure if it is possible for a melee guy to outplay a ranged guy and win, but this really isnt an legit arguement. Superhuman effort on the player's part cant be required to balance a game in my opinion.

Follow: I agree. At least make the hitbox better. Acrobatics + Grounded but not snared player is actually pretty hard to manage if you're not careful.

I've been in favor of moving 7 foot to 10 or 12 feet. Okay, so I don't exactly have 12 feet long arms, but I -could-. Give me a moment with the tailor.... :P. That alone would make a big difference for every melee player.


As to the last portion, I don't really consider it a superhuman effort. Although I do find the irony of the comparison whilst playing a superhero game to be amusing. It's definitely a gross exaggeration, but I'll forgive you this one time. That being said, you're clearly more comfortable with, and better at, ranged characters and that's cool too.

When it comes down to it, while there are other factors that influence melee vs ranged (such as the poor melee hitbox), it's the visible and obvious disadvantage people are having trouble with. As I said earlier, any disadvantage has the same work to overcome them, but they aren't as clear as the height one.

Let's take knockback for example. Let's assume someone has Crippling Challenge, Frag, Rocket and any other damaging knockback and they just cycle through them.

How far do you think you'd get?

To counter it, you'd need knockback resist gear, strength, and so forth. Same idea applies to height. At least it's not a disadvantage you are required to take, but anyone doing so generally knows what they're in for.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:34 PM
Anyone see the tendril power that knocks you up? Plus that same person is using some shadow blast with a fear component. Yeah, he consistently owned me despite TP. The fear didn't seem to get through block but the tendrils and KB would occasionally. If he couldn't keep me KB'd then the fear component was there because I couldn't block. I was lucky to get a TP off. If TP is overpowered all I can say is "whatever".

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:40 PM
Oh yeah, and somehow that guy is taking the least damage. Was there a nerf to defensives? That guy must be operating on an old patch then.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 01:49 PM
i would say that teleport should 'phase in' sooner when done in combat. same cooldown and speed as ever, but give it a max travel time of 2 seconds...

so enough to get away but not enough to stay away.

teleporting away has always been a problem. i used to PvP here... and i thought i'd have a break from it until probably the halloween event... unless i get an urge. i did lots of PvP in closed beta purely because i wanted to see powers balanced.

there are still a couple of other screwy powers i have found but during my cheeky little tastes i've notice a general improvement in PvP. i put this down to the 'active defense' cooldowns that have been brought in to stop nano/resurgers that were the bane of PvP.

players, it seems, are still trying to take every self heal under the sun... but obviously their collectively reduced effectiveness has made PvP more fun overall (since players can actually die now) even though i still think teleport is one of those problem powers. it is even abusable in PvE... after about 30 characters past 20 i have finally decided to try teleport and it is really a 'get out of dying' button. there are serious issues with this power and it's difficult to know where to begin suggesting a fix.

i won't be staying away from PvP when it's zombie time... so prepare to get beaten! (unless you're a prideless minmaxer :p)

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 02:03 PM
Shadow's Embrace with the knockup is arguably overpowered, but it's not common and it eats a lot of energy.

I agree with the OP, except on the subject of blocking. If melee got some special super anti block move then every champion in the game would take it and block would be obsolete. Absurd.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 03:27 PM
ability to still target and shoot through teleport when the player is visible/near


Ummmm...you already can. I have no problem targeting these guys. I've said how a few times already but all I keep finding are more wine posts about a stupid power.

Try acro with the advantage and then tell me TP is OPed for a travel power.

Oh and try crippling challenge for a block killer....damn PvP would be better if we had...WE DO.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 04:04 PM
i pvp non stop and teleport is not the problem it was 2 days ago and teleport is not the advantage it was 2 days ago.

plz stop alt tabbing to forums to call for nerfs or debates at this point.

if like your'e forum suggests u might have some inteligence, then fight for no changes for a month atleast and see wussup. try to thwart those things. yes i have a shotgun guy and today theres shotgunners everywhere im excited im thinking all day how i can thwart and pwn them all. which one of my toons to play hmmmmmm

anywho stfu or you will get your'e privates nerfed.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 05:58 PM
Acrobat + ice sheild = Speedwalking turtling super snaring **** vs any poor idiot attempting to force fire you.

some guy did that to my team...it was freakin hilarious.........

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 06:00 PM
Shadow's Embrace with the knockup is arguably overpowered, but it's not common and it eats a lot of energy.

I agree with the OP, except on the subject of blocking. If melee got some special super anti block move then every champion in the game would take it and block would be obsolete. Absurd.

Shadow's Embrace is pretty much the only thing shadow has going for it too...you forgot to add that fact in........

Rest is mediocre, to crap

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:24 PM
if you dont like LONG WELL THOUGHT OUT WALLS OF TEXTS skip to the TL/DR section at the bottom.

Ok, when i bought CO i was swearing to myself - i WONT focus on PvP, i will stick to PvE fun with my friends and family.

That promise i broke, of course. Just a few words - i am a gaming vet and PvP junky (competitive starcraft and Q2 is where it all started), WoW S3 glad, pre BC rank 11, DotA addict, i can go on.
Not to brag - actually nothing to brag about those stats are usual for a lot of people who love competitive gaming - just to assure you i do have some experience.

So i love melee. I always end up with a melee char in almost any game i play that give me an option to play melee, barb/paladin in diablo, warrior/rogue/ench sham in WoW, monk in EQ2, every game that let me play a melee got me as melee.

So i started a melee char, of course, a laser knight PA build, and for a pure fun and aesthetic part of it. Not like it sucked in 20s bracket, at all. i still could contribute to team with thunderbolt lunge > 3/4 LS striker to take down focused target while i was really hard to kill, even on the offense. But i felt so jealous seeing those 14-0 records from some of the others, and also i was rather annoyed by same guys while they were in the opposite teams.

So i made another char, just for fun, melee, ofc. Dual ego blade shadow form bronze goddess. geez she is so sexy. i took teleport to try it out in PvP and a channeled heal to play a strike/vanish tactics. needles to say i failed terribly - TK snare simply doesnt work so i spent most of my time flying and healing, while being chased by shotgan/minimines/force blast/condemn/electrocute/taser arrow spamming crowd.

my usual score was like - 3-1, or 0-0 even because its really hard to land a kill on a smart TP player, only if he wants to take risk.

So what i did, i bet you already guessed - i said - ok thats enough i am going to minmax myself. so i made a ice shards/force blast/condemn/regenerate/force shield/TP/Con superstat monstrocity.

all of a sudden, a am extremely skilled. 14-0 every third game, 1-2 deaths at max, i laugh in the face of shotgun/miners, because - for real, force/condemn(electrocute/taser arrow) is so much more dangerous build.

you might say - wow, you compare a min/max character to a random fun character. no i dont. i compare ranged framework + specific balance breaking abilities with everything else. my TK and PA characters were designed with PvP in mind still their POWER LEVEL is not even over 1k, while my Force char is over 9 thousand, for shizzle.
in no game you can see that kind of balance, at least that comes to my mind. in WoW or a WaR on early level literally every class can compete with others, ofc there are options that are stronger then others but not by that margin. Twinks in WoW are nonrelevant since you need to spend a lot of time/gold to develop one, they are not ability based.

TL/DR, or my constructive feedback to devs.
1. Teleport (and burrowing) MUST go, sadly. in current version its absolutely, grossly imbalanced. In no way you should have a short cooldown power that removes any threat from you in PvP. Either a really long cooldoown should be put on it, or ability to still target and shoot through teleport when the player is visible/near, or any other that devs will find appropriate. right now - its a mess.
2. Melee should be rethought and reworked. Melee snares should be more powerful then ranged (sup Chill!), have shorter CD (sup Chill! oh wait!) and be more reliable. Also with big enough lag its really hard to register a melee special on a running/travel power using player at all - basically you can HIT with your melee non energy builder only when your target is snared or stunned.
2.1 Melee should have a reliable and easy way to overcome/remove active blocking. to be effective, melee character should maintain a very close range to his target. with snare immunity its very hard to actually maintain pressure on a target because a smart player will simply block your series after snare application and then run away with immunity leaving you with no option and utterly dropping your effectiveness in time.
3. Knockback should give some sort of immunity, but this was said too much times already and is rather obvious.
4. some abilities MUST be toned down/tweaked, Minimines are first on this list. no matter how much stupid arguments those who defend them present (LOL DONT GO IN THEM! LOL IRON LARIAT/SPAM THEM WHILE HELD/KNOCKDOWN!) they are absolutely stupid right now - too much damage for too small effort.

final words - please note i am NOT trying to forge a competitive gaming level PvP, thats impossible right. these advices are merely and attempt to make PvP in his game FUN for a broader audience.

At least i play because that thing.

just a fyi if your scoring low with your pvp tank your doing it wrong, I regularly see my score between 10-0 / 14-0 with maybe 1-2 deaths if I get unlucky. Also melee does have a way around active blocking some use the advantage challenging strikes while others have it in their description (ignores blocking)...

And while I don't take very much damage from mini mines (unless 2 or 3 people all drop them on me at once... then it gets a little interesting) I do agree they need to be toned down because they have almost no cooldown and are an instant source of massive aoe damage. Hell its tempting to take them just because they are so overly effective at taking out alot of the other MUCH more squishy then me arena players.

One thing I have to touch on though you missed was hold resistance items which seem to not actually have any effect at all (yes im opening up a ticket about it as I type), I have some in the variety of 50% hold/snare/ confuse resist up to 80% and 100% resist items against those types of CC effects... however when wearing them I am still able to be fully held /snared (never seen anyone use confuse in pvp) for the full duration, never have I see it just not do anything or last for less then its full duration.

So thats a big problem because it basically means they aren't working

Also I have my tab targetting set to next nearest target however it seems to constantly target random people in teleport on the other side of the arena so that needs to be looked at as well :/

Melee is definitely at a disadvantage vs ranged but I still beat them up, the trick is staying on them like a fat kid on a pork chop.. its a war of attrition and I know that the guy im beating on can't ignore me because as a str/con tank I still do alot of single target dps. So even if the person im targetting teleports away that just means one less enemy supporting his team while I teleport after him and keep the pressure on.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 03:51 AM
Just for the record I was fine with the way teleport was (the 15 second cooldown). However I don't see how using two of the bottom travel powers as a baseline is helping things.

If you're going to "nerf" TP, then nerf everything. Flight, superspeed etc. should all get more suppression. Tell me it's not easy to fly around and regen at top speed. Can you use potions while in flight? If you can't in TP then why should you be able to in any other travel power?
Its not as easy as you put it simply because in flight you can get

held,rooted,knocked down, and attacked.

same as all other travel powers except burrow and tp.


Why shouldn't you be able to teleport while being attacked? Can you fly at top speed while being attacked? You are asking for a big nerf to one power without thinking about the rest.

Yes you can, main point is you can be attacked, you can also be stopped and taken out of fly.

explain how that works with tp.

In fact, name a power that has the ability to stop someone from chain tp'ing thier health back.
Let me know when you come up with something :D

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 04:52 AM
just a fyi if your scoring low with your pvp tank your doing it wrong, I regularly see my score between 10-0 / 14-0 with maybe 1-2 deaths if I get unlucky. Also melee does have a way around active blocking some use the advantage challenging strikes while others have it in their description (ignores blocking)...

And while I don't take very much damage from mini mines (unless 2 or 3 people all drop them on me at once... then it gets a little interesting) I do agree they need to be toned down because they have almost no cooldown and are an instant source of massive aoe damage. Hell its tempting to take them just because they are so overly effective at taking out alot of the other MUCH more squishy then me arena players.

One thing I have to touch on though you missed was hold resistance items which seem to not actually have any effect at all (yes im opening up a ticket about it as I type), I have some in the variety of 50% hold/snare/ confuse resist up to 80% and 100% resist items against those types of CC effects... however when wearing them I am still able to be fully held /snared (never seen anyone use confuse in pvp) for the full duration, never have I see it just not do anything or last for less then its full duration.

So thats a big problem because it basically means they aren't working

Also I have my tab targetting set to next nearest target however it seems to constantly target random people in teleport on the other side of the arena so that needs to be looked at as well :/

Melee is definitely at a disadvantage vs ranged but I still beat them up, the trick is staying on them like a fat kid on a pork chop.. its a war of attrition and I know that the guy im beating on can't ignore me because as a str/con tank I still do alot of single target dps. So even if the person im targetting teleports away that just means one less enemy supporting his team while I teleport after him and keep the pressure on.

i dont think i am wrong with my melee build, i feel pretty confident :) ofc occasionally i can pull an impressive game score too but that doesnt remove the point - melee right now is MUCH harder to play then ranged in PvP. yes, some combinations work fine, like the guy with Iron Lariat into Condemn into some massive charged melee hit with knock up (idk whats the name of the power) he could totally remove me from the fight and do plenty of damage for some healthy seconds, he also was good to initiate and bringing down the runners, so he could hold his own, still he is totally dependant on Iron Lariat and Condemn (electrocute). Melee cant stand their own without ranged disables, while ranged can feel perfectly without melee.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 05:47 AM
QR

another downie nerfherder.

seriously. don't you all get tired of crying?

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 06:24 AM
QR

another downie nerfherder.

seriously. don't you all get tired of crying?

I don't think so and better yet these are mostly the people who don't and wouldn't PvP for anything other than the unlockables and quick XP.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 10:27 AM
QR

another downie nerfherder.

seriously. don't you all get tired of crying?

do you ever realize how laughable and stupid comments like this actually are?
people argue, you just flame. you call me crybaby when why should i be a crybaby when i run TP/force build on my main character?
my reason is to provide feedback and form discussion around it to help devs make a BETTER game for all of us.
you reason is hidden from me but i guess you just play shotgun/minimines or smth and want to have FUN the way you find it appealing.

Hypocrite you are, my friend.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 10:46 AM
Its not as easy as you put it simply because in flight you can get

held,rooted,knocked down, and attacked.

same as all other travel powers except burrow and tp.


TP will never have that, you have to hold before they TP. Fact of the matter is if you can see someone while they are TPing, then it is not really TP and they should change the name. Call it wisp form or something.

TP disadvantages:

Ground bound at normal walking pace
Loss of travel power upon re-entry when attacking (the 10 second cooldown)


Yes you can, main point is you can be attacked, you can also be stopped and taken out of fly.

explain how that works with tp.

In fact, name a power that has the ability to stop someone from chain tp'ing thier health back.
Let me know when you come up with something :D

Gunshot Blast (or any other abusable, spammable KB). Just run around spamming the heck out of it and you will get top score in the cage and keep everyone off their feet. People do it, and it works.

Viper's fangs, Stackable DoT.

Edit: Any Hold +AoE combo. Hold em, they dissapear, AoE. They reappear, Hold 'em again, They dissapear Aoe....apply 2-4 times.

There are others, I am sure, those two stick out at the moment.


Again, I am on the side of change, but let's not all start exaggerating things here.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 07:00 PM
In fact, name a power that has the ability to stop someone from chain tp'ing thier health back.
Let me know when you come up with something :D

Someone who does that is out of the fight long enough that it's like you big a big hold on them anyway. Helps you more than it helps them.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 10:17 PM
Someone who does that is out of the fight long enough that it's like you big a big hold on them anyway. Helps you more than it helps them.

this may be true, but you're still down a kill and after I teleport I can be back in the fight in a matter of seconds.
I don't understand why all of the travel powers have things like suppression, a build up time, and even a buff that can be "knocked off" the player when teleport has none of these things... yet players somehow assume that teleport is fine as is?

Its like flying, stealth, snare break, invulnerability, and speed all in one travel power that can never be turned off and has no build up time... no guys thats perfectly legit...
Why are the other travel powers there again?
Oh I know... so you can pick a second one at 35 and combine it with teleport. Thats where the real ridiculousness starts.
Flying teleporters... super speed teleporters.... or for the ultimate experience go tunneling teleporting so that when your teleport is on a cooldown and you somehow can't survive for 10 seconds you can just simply jump in a hole!

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 10:51 PM
Flying teleporters... super speed teleporters.... or for the ultimate experience go tunneling teleporting so that when your teleport is on a cooldown and you somehow can't survive for 10 seconds you can just simply jump in a hole!

One problem is that it starts at level 1 actually thanks to the Gamestop preorder - you get Hoverboots so you can stay out of melee range (while blasting away with ranged attacks), and then if things go wrong, TP away.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 11:58 PM
One thing I have to touch on though you missed was hold resistance items which seem to not actually have any effect at all (yes im opening up a ticket about it as I type), I have some in the variety of 50% hold/snare/ confuse resist up to 80% and 100% resist items against those types of CC effects... however when wearing them I am still able to be fully held /snared (never seen anyone use confuse in pvp) for the full duration, never have I see it just not do anything or last for less then its full duration.

they work. they only reduce the hold strength, not prevent the hold. makes it much easier to break.

Archived Post
09-07-2009, 01:00 AM
weeee nice tips thanks for em xD

Archived Post
09-09-2009, 09:49 AM
wow OP you L2P.....

good post, I'm so sick of hearing L2P as if these min/maxers have some insane zen like skill. I did the same thing after losing horribly while playing my single blade or my unarmed toon. so I made a character picked one spammable overpowered knockback power along with tp and then went into pvp.....suddenly I was rocking 14 kills and 0 deaths.

so apparently L2P should not stand for" learn to play" but instead "learn to pick....broken abilities."