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View Full Version : PvP does not reward Support Players


Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:19 AM
I played a match last night as a support character - buffing and healing allies the whole match enabling us to win without a single death. I never attacked an opposing player because you dont' really need to when support role buffs your recovery as much as it does. Anyways my score was 0-0 but my team won 15-0 and I recieved NO EXPERIENCE.

There's obivously a problem here. The devs need to revamp how experience is rewarded in pvp. Kills aren't everything. Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that. Ideally, the game should reward players depending on how effective of a support player they are. Experience for every heal, every buff.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:24 AM
Pick up an easy to spam pbaoe and just tag everyone.

I usually get a point if I set off ego sprites on someone and someone kills him, and it's not hard at all to tag the entire enemy team with it.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:27 AM
I've been wondering about this too... I don't play a support character (as yet I've only been PVPing on Foolhardy, but I'm sure I'll get round to some alts soon). But while the support people on my team tend to get a comparable amount of acclaim... is that because they're doing things other than support? Or because it treats a heal/root/whatever as acclaim-worthy?

As for experience... I think if someone on my team is keeping me alive while I take an opponent down, my team mate should absolutely get some experience for it.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:33 AM
I noticed this myself with my Mystic char, which is one reason I stopped him. Setting up all these great buffs and debuffs and whatever didn't actually do **** in terms of contribution.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:48 AM
If rewards were divided amongst the team regardless of whether an individual did any damage to the opposition or not, this would create a situation where someone could enter the fight and really not do much - or anything - and still get rewards. Perhaps more rewards than would otherwise be deserved.

So... is this a situation where it's impossible or impractical to do some damage to the opposition? If not, I think that may be the way to go and just leave things as they are. But if it is impossible, then something other than what the OP suggests needs to be applied, because "Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that" would create the problem situation I described.

If there were detailed information about how the XP rewards were determined and split, maybe a better idea would make itself known.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:13 AM
If rewards were divided amongst the team regardless of whether an individual did any damage to the opposition or not, this would create a situation where someone could enter the fight and really not do much - or anything - and still get rewards. Perhaps more rewards than would otherwise be deserved.

So... is this a situation where it's impossible or impractical to do some damage to the opposition? If not, I think that may be the way to go and just leave things as they are. But if it is impossible, then something other than what the OP suggests needs to be applied, because "Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that" would create the problem situation I described.

If there were detailed information about how the XP rewards were determined and split, maybe a better idea would make itself known.

WAR has demonstrated that its possible to reward players for support actions, not just kills. I'm not necessarily suggesting something as robust as that, though I think it would be ideal. All I'm saying is support players need to be rewarded. If this creates an issue for idle players then we need something to adress that issue seperately.

And spamming AoEs will only be effective on certain maps. It shouldn't be necessary for a support player to get XP anyways.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:39 AM
Winning the match is what is most important and every player ,that actively participated, whether via attacking or healing/buffing a teammate(self heals/buffs shouldn't count),should be rewarded for that. Ideally, the game should reward players depending on how effective of a support player they are. Experience for every heal, every buff.

There, fixed that line for ya. Unfortunately it's not just this game nor just PvP where this becomes an issue. In every MMO I've played, which is a lot of them, the supports classes have been shafted, yet remain vital to the survival and accomplishments of the team.

If exp/acclaim were awarded based on damage dealt to the enemy, then the same scale must be used for damage healed on a teammate. For instance, if it's a pair of us with one dealing 2k damage to defeat the enemy and the other healing 1500 damage on the damage dealer. then the exp should be split 2-1.5 So if the exp/acclaim was 100 points for that single "kill" then 2(100/3.5)=57 exp/acclaim for the dmg dealer and 1.5(100/3.5)=43 exp/acclaim for the healer. Buffs would be a bit more complex to work into the formulas, but I hope this helps folks at least get the gist of the idea.

Then adding a participation bonus at the end for both teams based on the number of "kills" that team received and the total number of "kills" in the match. By having the total in here, this should also help prevent/reduce "gaming" the system by one team just letting the other win quickly. So in a close match that ends by a difference of 1 "kill" the losing team would earn almost as much bonus as the winning team. That's then divided by the number of participating members. Thus preventing someone from just sitting in a corner of the staging room from gaining anything since they didn't help their team.

Lastly to further prevent/reduce "gaming" the system, there should be a minimum time for each match before you can queue up for another one. This minimum should be based on the average length of a normal match. Thus if the average time to play a normal match is 10 minutes set the timer to 7 minutes.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:08 PM
Yeah it really sucks.I love playing as support role and it really blows that I get no credit for helping my team. The only way I can get credit is if I do a substantial amount of damage to the target, but on quite a few occasions I've had team mates that took so much damage I didn't have time to do any damage and hence I'd get no credit at all during an entire match even if we won. If I heal a team mate that is taking damage from an opponent and the opponent died because I kept my team alive I see no reason why I shouldn't get credit.

I figured that hey maybe if I formed a group it would help, but I was wrong there too.Grouped or not support gets little to no credit, if they're focusing on healing/buffing their team. I was grouped and because the damage was so high on my team I had to soley focus on healing(which thank god i had a high recovery rate) and at the end of the match i got 0/15 in a match that we won 0-15.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Why not a system where each player gets XP from a kill.

When a player dies that total XP pool is discounted from thier own personal amounts.

So there could be 1 player with 15-0 he wouild get (random number) 1000 XP.

Then there is a player with 0-14 he would get only 10 XP (no math ftw)

Only problem with this would be leechers. Thats when we would need a "report" feature.

However if there is a support character now they are even more vital than ever because "good" players dont want to die to have thier XP reduced!

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 12:28 PM
WAR has demonstrated that its possible to reward players for support actions, not just kills. I'm not necessarily suggesting something as robust as that, though I think it would be ideal. All I'm saying is support players need to be rewarded. If this creates an issue for idle players then we need something to adress that issue seperately.

And spamming AoEs will only be effective on certain maps. It shouldn't be necessary for a support player to get XP anyways.

I agree that support builds should have a shot at rewards inline with the rest of the team. The thing I was pointing out was that
Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that
can break things.

I didn't suggest spamming AoEs was the solution either - so I'm not sure where that came from in your response. Without knowing the rewards formula and underlying split calculations, I don't think we'd have much chance of making a work-able suggestion. I suppose you could just say, "Hey, contributing support builds don't get rewarded if they manage to not do any damage at all. What can we do to fix that?" - and leave it at that unless we get some transparency on how the rewards are calculated.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 03:56 PM
The problem with putting in a 'healing done' calculation for xp for support characters is the same one WAR suffered.

That healers begin to earn exorbitant amounts of xp based off of healing abilities that allow AoE spam or just spamming basic healing abilities.

Though I totally agree that support roles should be allocated a reward for their team winning (I usually play a support role myself)

I think the better option would be to award the team as a whole victory points. (Obviously in FFA matches like B.A.S.H. this can't apply)

Instead of calculating for each individual player on K/D it should be based off of team total + points for Victory and then award them across the board for the winning team.

I think the losing team should still receive K/D experience but handling how support earns xp there is probably the more problematic of the issues.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 04:07 PM
,that actively participated, whether via attacking or healing/buffing a teammate(self heals/buffs shouldn't count).

I actually disagree a bit with your edit :) I see no reason why self heals shouldn't count. Sometimes just being a ***** to kill can help your team if the other team's dumb enough to keep focus firing on you. I did that on my ele in Guild Wars sometimes. It's like people forgot anything but Savannah Heat or Searing Flames (most. boring. skill. ever.) existed for elementalists, so they assumed that naturally they should be able to focus you down. Therefore taking damage that could have otherwise been killing your teammates. Earth and Water were my favorites to run for PvP. Anyhow, I think I digressed a tad.

As somebody who's main will be support (when I can FINALLY check out that darn celestial set before I continue to level ;_;) it would be nice to see support characters get some love.

That said...in this game there's NO reason you shouldn't at least be able to tag somebody with your energy builder, even as a support character. IMO in MOST cases you're not pulling your weight if you're not sprinkling in a little damage and CC or helping focus someone down. As long as people are getting the same XP for assists (I don't know that's true or not) as outright kills, I think the system works fine as it is.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 06:17 PM
In my opinion there is a very simple solution. In PvE when 2 players kill a mob contribution is shared through damage done. However when 2 players in a group kill a mob, the experience is shared equally. Now usually when I join a pvp match the first thing I do is send out invites to everyone and get a group on the go (trying to play support without party frames is horrible). Simply alter the way exp and acclaim are given so it is shared, equally between the group. If someone is slacking or afk'ing you simply right click thier portrait and press "kick from group". It couldn't be simpler.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 06:55 PM
This is what i feared, i was looking forward to create a healer.

First thing i noticed was the insane amount of threat it generates in PvE, the tank had no chance what so ever to get the mobs away from me and im fully aware of the Ego and Presence-stats, when i later helped out in doing some of the public quests i got no rewards for healing the players, and trying out the arena with some of my pals was fun though, but gave me no "points" nor statistics after each fight.

Got me an achievement though for healing, funny thing is, so did my friend i grouped with at the same time, and he is a pure dpscaster-thing.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 06:59 PM
If rewards were divided amongst the team regardless of whether an individual did any damage to the opposition or not, this would create a situation where someone could enter the fight and really not do much - or anything - and still get rewards. Perhaps more rewards than would otherwise be deserved.

So... is this a situation where it's impossible or impractical to do some damage to the opposition? If not, I think that may be the way to go and just leave things as they are. But if it is impossible, then something other than what the OP suggests needs to be applied, because "Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that" would create the problem situation I described.

If there were detailed information about how the XP rewards were determined and split, maybe a better idea would make itself known.

Preventing damage is just as valuable as causing it

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 08:54 PM
yea i noticed i get **** all points in pvp, i dont see whats so hard about dividing the acclaim or xp, whatever with your group.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 09:31 PM
I agree - support needs to have a better way of handling contribution.. sucks that I can't play full support if I want to and get rewards.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 09:36 PM
I
That said...in this game there's NO reason you shouldn't at least be able to tag somebody with your energy builder, even as a support character. IMO in MOST cases you're not pulling your weight if you're not sprinkling in a little damage and CC or helping focus someone down. As long as people are getting the same XP for assists (I don't know that's true or not) as outright kills, I think the system works fine as it is.

This just caught my eye and I remembered something(that I've reported as a bug before), but since I do tend to focus on healing/buffing and throwing holds on enemies as needed. However when I'm low on energy or if I see no one needs healing/buffing at the moment I'll do some damage to a player either with my energy builder(if my energy is low) or toss in a couple of charged abilities then go back to healing/buffing. The problem I've come across with this is that even if I did damage to the target I still got no credit at all.

This leaves me somewhat disheartened as a support role because it's lead me on a few occasions to believe that in order to gain credit you need to do a substantial amount of damage.(which in many cases from my experience has been true). The credit doesn't even have to be a complete division, I'd settle for giving the lion's share to the damage dealers than no credit at all.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 09:39 PM
A dev recently posted about this, and it seemed like they meant for support players to be left out in the cold. Personally, healers should be recognized and we should be rewarded either kill points for people who we heal that kill someone or acclaim equal to that. Anyways, I don't really think any build should have no offense--as a support player you can pick up holds and such; and those do count towards kills.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 09:59 PM
A dev recently posted about this, and it seemed like they meant for support players to be left out in the cold. Personally, healers should be recognized and we should be rewarded either kill points for people who we heal that kill someone or acclaim equal to that. Anyways, I don't really think any build should have no offense--as a support player you can pick up holds and such; and those do count towards kills.

I can't seem to find the post, mind linking it to me?

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:12 PM
I can't seem to find the post, mind linking it to me?

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=914034#post914034

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:41 PM
I don't see why you cant shoot people while you heal. :|

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:43 PM
I don't see why you cant shoot people while you heal. :|

I like posting useless crap in every thread, too. Troll harder please.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 10:51 PM
I played a match last night as a support character - buffing and healing allies the whole match enabling us to win without a single death. I never attacked an opposing player because you dont' really need to when support role buffs your recovery as much as it does. Anyways my score was 0-0 but my team won 15-0 and I recieved NO EXPERIENCE.

There's obivously a problem here. The devs need to revamp how experience is rewarded in pvp. Kills aren't everything. Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that. Ideally, the game should reward players depending on how effective of a support player they are. Experience for every heal, every buff.

I feel for you brother...I truly do. This little dynamic which MOST devs seem to overlook, or purposely write into games is one of the main reasons I have had only 2 support toons out of dozens and dozens of toons I have lvl'ed in the dozens of MMO's I have played over the years. 98% are combat only....

To Date, the best system I experienced was in Warhammer online, where a priest was awarded xp based on both his kills and his healing. Made for a great dynamic which really allowed good support players to shine and get their just desserts.

But, unfortunately, most MMO's, even ones as fun as champions, neglect the support charatcers. Hopefully cryptic will remedy this for you and all the other support lovin players.

Soule

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:10 PM
No, it is really pretty simple. Shoot people until you need to heal. CO does not have Support Players, it has players with support abilities. And shooty abilities. Use them.

Hell, a bunch of the damage abilities give awesome support buffs, like the Laser Sword and its +60% (?) damage on the target.

Providing credit for 'support' actions leaves too many holes and opportunities for leeching imo. *shrug*

Even if they do change it, it probably won't be super soon.

Archived Post
09-05-2009, 11:22 PM
PvP offers next to no reward for anyone. I can get 5-10 kills, walk out and have maybe 1/3 of an inch more on my exp bar. And that is if I win. If you lose you might as well not even have bothered...

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 12:56 AM
The xp reward in the 20-30 bracket is actually failry decent for a win in UTC (About 6K) or B.A.S.H. (About 12K)

Which helps to fill in a bit of the content gap that exists in those levels.

I'm not sure about the 31-40 xp rewards.

The only problem with a straight - even distribution of xp is how the matching system seems to work for the PvP matches.

It might be just B.A.S.H. but I've joined games litterly as they ended or in the last minute or so.

If I happen to join a victories team because someone left early, crashed, that team was just better spec'd, etc should I get the same shared xp points as the people who played the match all the way through.

Can anyone confirm that the team games require a full team on each side before they start and that new players can't join mid game?

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 05:08 AM
You can join midgame and the game will start with or without five on each team. Meaning it may have five people zoning in, but slow loaders will screw ya if they crash out or don't make it before the start time.

Archived Post
09-06-2009, 06:30 AM
PvP offers next to no reward for anyone. I can get 5-10 kills, walk out and have maybe 1/3 of an inch more on my exp bar. And that is if I win. If you lose you might as well not even have bothered...


Awwww someone give this guy a hug. He thought he was gonna level by loosing.

Archived Post
09-07-2009, 04:08 AM
I played a match last night as a support character - buffing and healing allies the whole match enabling us to win without a single death. I never attacked an opposing player because you dont' really need to when support role buffs your recovery as much as it does. Anyways my score was 0-0 but my team won 15-0 and I recieved NO EXPERIENCE.

There's obivously a problem here. The devs need to revamp how experience is rewarded in pvp. Kills aren't everything. Winning the match is what is most important and every player should be rewarded for that. Ideally, the game should reward players depending on how effective of a support player they are. Experience for every heal, every buff.

Ive made threads about this as well. The problem is the same with public quests and contribution.

True story:
My SG-mates and I went to do the PQ in mill city with the mega-destroid at the end. I healed, buffed, debuffed, and held for the entire PQ, and REALLY had my hands full the whole time keeping people up against the mega-destroid. When the PQ finished, I saw my name at the bottom of the list with a "1" for contribution.

...I'll repeat that...I healed non-stop for a whole mega-destroid fight and recieved a "1" for contribution.


Now, Im stuck at level 39, out of missions and with no good way to gain experience, since I get jack for pvp. i tried just focussing on damage, but always end up healing because nobody else can, and I like winning. Even with those wins, I get about 1/4th the exp and acclaim as my teammates.

Archived Post
09-07-2009, 04:12 AM
Even if they do change it, it probably won't be super soon.

except that whole part where devs even said in interviews before the game came out that healers would get credit.

And yes, there are support guys. Most people think there arent because so few people made ones, and many of the few that did...didnt make very good ones =/. Youd be surprised what i can keep my team up through, and how much of the opposing team I can lock down.

Archived Post
09-07-2009, 06:48 AM
Check out my pic, thats my support character.

Archived Post
09-07-2009, 12:00 PM
Check out my pic, thats my support character.

um....ok?

Not sure if you are trying to make some sort of point or just showing off your guy :p

Archived Post
09-07-2009, 02:05 PM
LOL I'm not sure I think I was replying to someone or something..... uhm *shrugs* .... it was really late..... really late.

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 05:49 AM
Its hard to discuss a proper solution without a good explanation of how xp is distribruted. It would be great if a dev could shed light on this. In anycase, I've tried spamming attacks and it only has limited sucess, on certain maps, it is not a good solution.

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 09:58 AM
Well, I finally got my healing butt up to 40...now I just need to moan about how we dont get acclaim for healing :p

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 10:13 AM
Well, I finally got my healing butt up to 40...now I just need to moan about how we dont get acclaim for healing :p

Grats on lvl40, Bis! I need to get Double Deuce to 40 (26 now...stupid alt-itus) so I can experience your leet healz first hand!

But I agree, Support roles need to be rewarded more in PvP (I made a Telepathy toon over the weekend, he's at lvl17 and beginning to feel the hurt described in this thread).

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 01:40 PM
i say group up all the xp, and divvy it out evenly to the entire team
that way everyone gets a nice share
support is same as supakillas

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 01:46 PM
I completely agree that leaving support characters out of PvP rewards seems like a serious problem. More generally, awarding acclaim and xp based on the number of kills seems like a really bad approach in any case.

And yeah, equally dividing XP and acclaim seems like a much better approach than what we have now, if they can't figure out anything more sophisticated.

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 08:02 PM
I rolled a telepath over the weekend and played some level 10 cage matches. The first few games I was getting a feel for my role and ended up standing around and healing the whole time. 15-0 and 15-1 wins, and I got next to nothing for a reward.

The next few matches I decided to hit Ego Sprites every time I wasn't healing. Same results -- 15-0 and 15-1 wins, and usually tied for first or second in kill contributions and tons more acclaim and exp per match (even though I never actually killed anyone or did that much damage at all).

I thought that was pretty stupid! I haven't tried since level 10 though -- seems Cryptic didn't learn from other games (cough WoW cough) that too much CC ruins PvP. They also did not learn from WAR that rewarding healers and support = awesome :p

Tangent: My main is a munitions gal who chose mini-mines, shotty, and teleport as part of the concept, before I even had a clue what I was doing. So tragic that my concept turned out completely OP and FotM and hated by all -- but I'm not complaining, because I am OP :) (for now)

Archived Post
09-08-2009, 08:31 PM
This just caught my eye and I remembered something(that I've reported as a bug before), but since I do tend to focus on healing/buffing and throwing holds on enemies as needed. However when I'm low on energy or if I see no one needs healing/buffing at the moment I'll do some damage to a player either with my energy builder(if my energy is low) or toss in a couple of charged abilities then go back to healing/buffing. The problem I've come across with this is that even if I did damage to the target I still got no credit at all.

This leaves me somewhat disheartened as a support role because it's lead me on a few occasions to believe that in order to gain credit you need to do a substantial amount of damage.(which in many cases from my experience has been true). The credit doesn't even have to be a complete division, I'd settle for giving the lion's share to the damage dealers than no credit at all.

The person has to actually die before you do (:p) from my experience. Some of these teleporter tankish types can take a lot of damage and not die the whole match, so you'll never get credit from tagging them. If they die, you DO get credit for the assist.

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=914034#post914034

I don't get "we don't want to reward support players" from that. Then again I love support but don't particularly care for healbot, so my playstyle isn't really affected.

Archived Post
09-09-2009, 01:45 AM
PvP statistics are painfully bland.

Archived Post
09-10-2009, 11:59 AM
I'm just gonna give this a little bump. There is a serious disparity between the rewards for support roles.

Archived Post
09-10-2009, 08:09 PM
This is really game breaking issue for my healer character. She does not have any ability that deals direct damage if you don't count the weak free energy builder. I cannot do any pve and I'm denied leveling via pvp.

Usually I'm the one who has to work hardest of all team members. Sleeping, confusing, healing and running away from angry opponents. There is not a second to rest in the matches, and yet after win the reward is big zero for me. It seems like the game thinks I would have been leeching the whole fight which is the absolute opposite.

Quite a let down actually, so far the game with all its aspects has been so much fun but it shocks me to think that game testers and quality assurance team did not play pvp with a support character at all or they would have noticed theres something wrong.

Why would there be even support and control skills available if utilizing those means no reward for winning in hero games? That seems kinda unfair. This needs to be fixed, the calculation is faulty within its current state.

Archived Post
09-10-2009, 08:51 PM
the game is not built for pure support characters. aggro should demonstrate that if nothing else does. just take some damage abilities and deal some damage and you'll be fine.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:18 AM
the game is not built for pure support characters. aggro should demonstrate that if nothing else does. just take some damage abilities and deal some damage and you'll be fine.

100% wrong on this. Youd be amazed at what a dedicated support guy can do, and aggro can be managed by someone who is actually built to generate threat...it's not the healer's fault that nobody seems to care to do this.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:26 AM
Being Support can be harsh. At 29 I did a High Tech Arena and invited everyone to a team. I spent the whole match healing, crowd controlling, and knocking people around a bit. Ended up with 10k xp. Then I did a BASH... lol.. just lol. My toon isn't based around killing people. I even helped a few others kill people and still got almost no credit. Wasn't even worth going into the match even though I never died.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:27 AM
Instead of making complicated statistics for giving healing and CC points. It'll probably be a failure anyway and reward one more that the other. It should be an even split.

as the old saying goes, there's no i in team.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:32 AM
Instead of making complicated statistics for giving healing and CC points. It'll probably be a failure anyway and reward one more that the other. It should be an even split.

as the old saying goes, there's no i in team.

While I agree that credit for Cc might be a bit too hard to do, giving credit for hp healed is pretty damn simple :(

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:36 AM
While I agree that credit for Cc might be a bit too hard to do, giving credit for hp healed is pretty damn simple :(

Not really...either it'll credit dmg more, or heals more. It's hard to get it balanced just right to get an accurate view of who is truly the major contributor of the team. Also heals are really potent. An ice char doesn't even have the dps to break through a arcane vitality + Radiant Aura heal spam. So heal output is higher than dmg output. So it's skewed already in the healer's favor if it was an even split.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:44 AM
Not really...either it'll credit dmg more, or heals more. It's hard to get it balanced just right to get an accurate view of who is truly the major contributor of the team. Also heals are really potent. An ice char doesn't even have the dps to break through a arcane vitality + Radiant Aura heal spam. So heal output is higher than dmg output. So it's skewed already in the healer's favor if it was an even split.

Some credit is preferable to zero credit. Balancing it out could be a longer process, but absolutely giving NOTHING is pretty unnaceptable

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 01:44 AM
Some credit is preferable to zero credit. Balancing it out could be a longer process, but absolutely giving NOTHING is pretty unnaceptable

I already told you what I feel is the best, which is also the simpliest solution...Winning team = even split. It's a team effort and a team game.

Relating the scoring system, to the xp and acclaim given leads to selfishness. What if the best strategy for the game is to have 1 of your guys not go for points, but simply to harass a player and keep him out of combat, while your 4 teammates kills another guy? Should he get screwed because it was for the good of the team?

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 02:12 AM
My SG Leader is a gigabolt specced electricity build and was first on the scoreboard yesterday for more than 5 rounds in a row. He said that he received over 80k per round while i got only 15k per round with my melee might character. it would really be better if they split exp between the whole team.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 02:51 AM
I give up, i was really looking forward to be able to heal in this game, specially in PvP..

The final nail in the coffin was yesterday when we did a simple public event, healed my ass of, 3 peeps died under the whole fight, myself included cause i messed up with the shielding.
But after finally beating the quest, the stats roll up, i got 110 points, my minethrowing friend 900 points(after nerf), and the others not too far below..

Its like the game punishes you for helping others, now after much consideration im going for that free respec, healing in PvP is fun, and first i ignored not getting as much points as the rest, but it keeps nagging me everytime we win or loose, this way we might end up loosing more in PvP but at least its fair for everyone.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 10:11 AM
Not really...either it'll credit dmg more, or heals more. It's hard to get it balanced just right to get an accurate view of who is truly the major contributor of the team.

What you are describing is balance. Every game has aspects that need to be balanced. I'm not sure why you think this is a legitimate reason to not reward support. That's like saying 'We dont' want to have to balance powers, so there's only going to be 1 framework'


Also heals are really potent. An ice char doesn't even have the dps to break through a arcane vitality + Radiant Aura heal spam. So heal output is higher than dmg output. So it's skewed already in the healer's favor if it was an even split.

non-self Heals are more potent because they are responsive, and therefore harder to exectue. You have to pay attention and find a specific ally that is getting hurt, then run over and heal him in time. Anyone who thinks its easy to spam heals is sorely mistaken. Aside from the time it takes to run over and get him in your lin of fire, you also may have to keep building your end inbetween heals There is only one AoE heal and its a cone maintain. It is very challenging to keep players in it. Also take into account how mobile players are in this game..yeah you can't really spam heals for the sake of padding your score.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 11:34 AM
What you are describing is balance. Every game has aspects that need to be balanced. I'm not sure why you think this is a legitimate reason to not reward support. That's like saying 'We dont' want to have to balance powers, so there's only going to be 1 framework'



non-self Heals are more potent because they are responsive, and therefore harder to exectue. You have to pay attention and find a specific ally that is getting hurt, then run over and heal him in time. Anyone who thinks its easy to spam heals is sorely mistaken. Aside from the time it takes to run over and get him in your lin of fire, you also may have to keep building your end inbetween heals There is only one AoE heal and its a cone maintain. It is very challenging to keep players in it. Also take into account how mobile players are in this game..yeah you can't really spam heals for the sake of padding your score.

Did you not read my prior post? I said that the reward should be divided equally in pvp. It's the opposite for not rewarding support. It rewards team strategy which is really what wins the game.

The post you quoted was an explanation of how coming up with an algorithm to reward CCs, Heals and Dmg to be overly complicated to actually balance. It's not a practical solution...an even split would be better for the winning team.

If you reward top kills, or top heals, you totally ruin it for people that were high value targets during the match. Cause they spend most of the match running for their lives. But I could come up with so many reasons as to why non-even rewards is wrong in Team based PVP it's not funny.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 02:36 PM
Ive made threads about this as well. The problem is the same with public quests and contribution.

True story:
My SG-mates and I went to do the PQ in mill city with the mega-destroid at the end. I healed, buffed, debuffed, and held for the entire PQ, and REALLY had my hands full the whole time keeping people up against the mega-destroid. When the PQ finished, I saw my name at the bottom of the list with a "1" for contribution.

...I'll repeat that...I healed non-stop for a whole mega-destroid fight and recieved a "1" for contribution.


Now, Im stuck at level 39, out of missions and with no good way to gain experience, since I get jack for pvp. i tried just focussing on damage, but always end up healing because nobody else can, and I like winning. Even with those wins, I get about 1/4th the exp and acclaim as my teammates.

Welcome to the world of the support style. Maybe they'll change things. Maybe they won't. Don't hold your breath though. I hit the delete button on all my support heroes already. (OMG two weeks into the game? You didn't even give it a chance to blah blah blah blah) Yes, I did. :) I'll take that roller coaster ride again later down the road.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 02:36 PM
It'd be great to see this issue get some official attention. I mean, if the official position is that the game, or PvP at any rate, is designed around the assumption that while we each may bring a slightly different focus to the table, we're supposed to be generalists - each with enough damage, defense and maybe a little healing to take care of ourselves while we smack people around - I'd really like to hear that. It'd save me my next six month subscription fee. It's also not at all the impression I got from some of the interviews/videos prior to release, so maybe we just need a little clarification?

For what it's worth, I think rewarding points based on the number of kills in a round is really bad idea for a lot of reasons; it forces strategically shallow game play in addition to ignoring all contributions that don't directly result in a kill. Awarding points for heals and damage done seems ideal. If that's too complicated, that'd be a shame. But even something as coarse as splitting a pool of points evenly between a team would be a big step up from the current plan.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 03:53 PM
I give up, i was really looking forward to be able to heal in this game, specially in PvP..

The final nail in the coffin was yesterday when we did a simple public event, healed my ass of, 3 peeps died under the whole fight, myself included cause i messed up with the shielding.
But after finally beating the quest, the stats roll up, i got 110 points, my minethrowing friend 900 points(after nerf), and the others not too far below..

Its like the game punishes you for helping others, now after much consideration im going for that free respec, healing in PvP is fun, and first i ignored not getting as much points as the rest, but it keeps nagging me everytime we win or loose, this way we might end up loosing more in PvP but at least its fair for everyone.

I give up too until things change. Just played a couple more matches and got basically 0 from them. If you get paired up with mediocre players vs an entire team of regen/teleporters, there's nothing you can do. I spend an entire match CCing, healing, buffing, debuffing. What do I get for 20 minutes of my time? 900 experience and 30 Acclaim.

The other problem with support characters is you are useless without a good team. If I was playing any of my dps type characters, I could have had a meaningful impact. But on my own, I can't even bolster my team enough for them to kill anybody. It'd be possible if not for regen and teleport, the defacto PVP powers. Teleport out of anything, by the time you come out you're fully healed. And as a support character, it is IMPOSSIBLE to ever kill a regen character. Not difficult. Impossible.

Oh and what is a support toon supposed to do in BASH? Contrary to what the devs say, you get next to zero credit unless you do the majority of the damage to someone. Helping others nets nothing.

Archived Post
09-11-2009, 03:55 PM
I try to score on my healer just for XP :/

Went 7-0 once ^^

Archived Post
09-12-2009, 01:11 AM
Played through Stronghold and won with my support toon, received a tiny, tiny reward after working my butt off all match keeping people healed, buffed and debuffed.

Joined a match on my dps toon where the enemy was already in our base room fighting our bosses (we were villains though, so it was a long fight with Talismans heals).. came out of it with over 20k acclaim from a short fight just because I kicked some butt for a couple minutes.

Archived Post
09-12-2009, 08:40 AM
I was Munitions, kicking ass in PvP gaining alot of Exp etc, usually getting 12 kills per round. I changed to a healer/support with the free respec and I not only get called a noob for having no defeats (Even though I kept them up and eventually won 4v5 with no one dying-.-') Im also now getting no exp at all, unless I go offencive.

So I went from a character I likes to a character I find pointless and have now abandoned in the space of 20 minutes.

Thanks for the unbalanced game.

Archived Post
09-12-2009, 11:41 AM
Unfortunately it's not just this game nor just PvP where this becomes an issue. In every MMO I've played, which is a lot of them, the supports classes have been shafted, yet remain vital to the survival and accomplishments of the team.

Then you haven't played Warhammer Online. I have played several characters, and the Rune Priest and Warrior Priest are treated extremely well (far better than non-healers I also play) with reputation and experience. Taking a keep, I get highest contribution all the time. So it's definitely a solvable problem.

On the other hand, I have more fun with more combat oriented characters.

This is a game that's never going to be fully balanced for PvP, by the way. And we shouldn't expect it to be. There's far too many power combinations. Actually balancing the game completely for pvp, they'd screw up a lot of characters.

Now I love PvP. In Warhammer, that's all I wanna do, basically. That's also almost all I did in WoW. But in WoW, they designed the racials before PvP. The Horde essentially had all the good PvP racials, and the system was always lopsided and always will be. (And don't get into a flame war about this. Anyone who REALLY PvPs knows the value of skill and also knows the value of even the slightest advantages... and the Horde racials WEREN'T slight)

But I'm having an absolute blast on Champions. If they try and fix PvP, I hope they don't mess the rest of the game up. And if they don't fix PvP, I hope people pause to appreciate how much fun the rest of the game is.

But the original poster does describe a problem that can and should be fixed.

Archived Post
09-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Frankly, this game is terrible for Support Players all round, not just in PvP.

This is a list of things I have fun this far.

1) In order to heal well, we have to invite everyone EVERYTIME we go PvP. How about automatically set people into a group when they join?

2) Considering a good healer basically makes your team win, its beyond ******** we got NO EXP IN PVP.

4) We get no reward in Open Missions also (Not a Hero Games thing...but still)

5) Cant heal people in Teleport Phase - Since everyone and their mother has it...it is abit of a problem.

I hope we get some Dev post about this soon...maybe even a fix if thats not asking too much.