Mini Mines or lack of skill in pvp

[Archived Post]

looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

[Archived Post]

I don't think you want to be calling out those player's by name on the forums. You may want to edit that out real fast.

[Archived Post]

I don't think you want to be calling out those player's by name on the forums. You may want to edit that out real fast.

great more nerf callers to ruin my PVE toons. I wish companies would realize all the pvp cry babies ruin it for PvE and their should be separate powers for the 2.

[Archived Post]

How about this...

How about we just cry for nerf on character creation? I mean, heroes, they use powers, right? And powers -might- be overpowered in combination with other powers. And you poor lads and lasses might die in PvP! ...the horror.

Funny thing is, Mini-mines, they don't move. They can't target you. Don't step in them!

Problems with someone knocking you back? Hit them first and hit them hard with your own CC.

Jeez.

Okay, maybe I was too drastic on nerfing character creation. Instead, let's only be allowed to use energy builders in PvP. The same one... for everyone. And maybe one basic charge attack. And everyone will have to stand in a pair of big long lines. And we'll just fire volleys at the front line until we fall.

I like this. It'll be like the 1700s... but in my high-tech, state of the art video game.

[Archived Post]

great more nerf callers to ruin my PVE toons. I wish companies would realize all the pvp cry babies ruin it for PvE and their should be separate powers for the 2.

Why did you quote me? I say nothing of nerfs.. I say : don't call out those players by name on the forums. I don't know who the guy is, but I'm certain Cryptic doesn't want call-outs on their forums.

weirdo! :p

[Archived Post]

Are those the grey disks with red blinky lights on them?

I never go near those.

[Archived Post]

great more nerf callers to ruin my PVE toons. I wish companies would realize all the pvp cry babies ruin it for PvE and their should be separate powers for the 2.

Your an idiot if you think its balanced in PvE.

[Archived Post]

Your an idiot if you think its balanced in PvE.

I wouldn't say idiot...
That is just mean. He is...special.

[Archived Post]

looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

/Translator On

I don't have my own form of CC because I built a dps toon. Since I can't hold you, but you CAN hold me, something is wrong. Also, mini-mines are overpowered becuase I don't know how to move yet so I keep autorunning into the FLOATING CLOUDS OF GIANT MINES. Sometimes people hold me then throw mines. I have NO CLUE how to block, so I just get rocked over and over while held.

/translator off

Of all ae powers out there, this is perhaps the EASIEST to avoid or mitigate.

[Archived Post]

looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

ever tried holding down the shift key? Just a thought. Oh and Thats assuming you want to move into the big red blinky things.

And no I dont use mini mines before you go on a rant about how we are all mini mine users and its a conspircay and is probably tied inot the global recsession we are having etc etc etc

[Archived Post]

Are those the grey disks with red blinky lights on them?

I never go near those.

Same.


Seriously... they arent even that hard to dodge.

I would never consider mini-mines OP, unless somehow they use them while directly on you in a way that you can't see them coming, nor avoid them.

Shotgun spammers ARE lame- BUT the shotgun is a very low dps weapon. It's slow. Very slow. BUT it can knock down a lot. But at the same time- it's not hard at all to counter.

Knocked down 4 times in a row? Most likely you wont for the next 2 times, so just block. Eventually the knockdown craziness stops (because it's only 20 or 25% chance) and you can block. After that, you charge them and knock THEM down. Then just start beating the crap out of them, knocking them down if they use shotgun.

Eventually the shotgun stops knocking down 24/7, and starts doing nothing 24/7. That's when it shines to beat them. And most players stop shotgunning after they've been knocked down.


The shotgun doesn't have high dps. I've used it all throughout beta- and it isn't even enough to beat regen.

[Archived Post]

Funny thing is, Mini-mines, they don't move. They can't target you. Don't step in them!

Problems with someone knocking you back? Hit them first and hit them hard with your own CC.

Jeez.


There is a problem with your little theory and I experienced it FIRST hand last night.......there was some guy that was basically a one trick pony.....he had taken fully tricked out mines and then Iron lariat. All he would do is spam the mines and then pull you into them.

Kind of hard to not step into them when you are FORCED to step into them. ;)

They do do a ridiculous amount of damage though I have 3k HPs and these things can cut my life in half in seconds.

[Archived Post]

If they drop them directly on you, you can't dodge them. gg logic

[Archived Post]

Funny thing is, Mini-mines, they don't move. They can't target you. Don't step in them!

Problems with someone knocking you back? Hit them first and hit them hard with your own CC.

Jeez..


So if your a melee build, your advise is to wait for the guy standing in the middle of his mini mines shooting you to move befor he can refresh his mini mines?

[Archived Post]

Condemn (or any other hold), jump into melee, drop mines. There's not much one can do against that. In the last BASH games I've done about half the team seemed to have mines (exaggerated) regardless of the theme of their character.

[Archived Post]

/Translator On

I don't have my own form of CC because I built a dps toon. Since I can't hold you, but you CAN hold me, something is wrong. Also, mini-mines are overpowered becuase I don't know how to move yet so I keep autorunning into the FLOATING CLOUDS OF GIANT MINES. Sometimes people hold me then throw mines. I have NO CLUE how to block, so I just get rocked over and over while held.

/translator off

Of all ae powers out there, this is perhaps the EASIEST to avoid or mitigate.
I thought Holds cancelled your ability to block

[Archived Post]

I cant wait to get Mini Mines... I just feel so naked with just my shotty.

[Archived Post]

I cant wait to get Mini Mines... I just feel so naked with just my shotty.

Hahahaha.

I want to know how many of you use melee characters, because mini mines **** up melee considerably. People spam them as soon as you get in their face, so you once you've closed the distance you have to block instead of attack. They just backpedal away as you are blocking. :mad:

[Archived Post]

So if your a melee build, your advise is to wait for the guy standing in the middle of his mini mines shooting you to move befor he can refresh his mini mines?

Here's what I advise:

(and this goes to the iron lariat post above)
Melee can get moves to draw a player to them as well. As a matter of fact, I can't see why a melee player wouldn't have a combination of these, travel power disablers, roots and the like if they're building with PvP even remotely in mind.

You notice a guy using a tactic of dropping mines on top of you? Great. One trick pony? No problem. If you have a move to draw them to you, mines go down, you yank him. Problem solved. Sure, you can come up with counter tactics he might use. But that's what PvP is about. Optimizing your ability to counter other people's tactics. If you're not willing to do that, I have no sympathies for your cries of nerf.

If a tactic used has no possible counter, then we have something that is truly over powered, without question. But complaining that something is overpowered when counters are available to you, or methods to cope even (see also: things such as force sheathe), is complacent at best.

One trick ponies are typically built on an extreme amount of predictability. When something is predictable, given the right counters, it's sadly easy to beat.

[Archived Post]

Hahahaha.

I want to know how many of you use melee characters, because mini mines **** up melee considerably. People spam them as soon as you get in their face, so you once you've closed the distance you have to block instead of attack. They just backpedal away as you are blocking. :mad:

Please look up force shield with the force sheathe advantage.

[Archived Post]

what's a good hold spell to use?

[Archived Post]

ever tried holding down the shift key? Just a thought. Oh and Thats assuming you want to move into the big red blinky things.

And no I dont use mini mines before you go on a rant about how we are all mini mine users and its a conspircay and is probably tied inot the global recsession we are having etc etc etc

Can't realy hold down the shift key in an ice cage bro .....

[Archived Post]

Please look up force shield with the force sheathe advantage.

Please look how they broke force surge last patch...

[Archived Post]

Ice cage is one of the easiest cages to break out of. Often times you can just jump out. Sorry, find a better hold skill.

In terms of melee:

Melee should have, but isn't required to have -

Thunderbolt Lunge (why on earth would you not have this?)

Iron Lariat / Shuriken. I'm partial to Shuriken + Kunai.

Hold/Snare/Root. Any of these three will do. It doesn't matter which. Just... Don't get containment field if you plan on actually hurting people.


You don't HAVE to hit or walk into the guy using mines. Back off, find another target, or pull him out of his own mines. They don't exactly move. It boggles me why a stationary attack seems to cause people so much hardship. If you don't like being held, increase the stats that allow you to break out of them faster. Increase the resistances to the popular energy types that are causing holds.

Personally, I hate the electrical hold, Electrocute. Just don't like it. What would I do? Gee, maybe raising electrical resistance would be a good start.

Then I can just walk away again.

[Archived Post]

great more nerf callers to ruin my PVE toons. I wish companies would realize all the pvp cry babies ruin it for PvE and their should be separate powers for the 2.

I'd go so far as to even say they should just keep the gametypes separate, no pve in the pvp MMOs and vice versa. WAR was ruined by it, the game balance was BETTER at launch then it is now. So many random nerf calls that everything has been gutted to the core except straight DPS, and the biggest DPS class just mows everything else down over there now without any counters. The WAR Devs eventually just gave up and stopped trying. No matter what they did someone was going to be unhappy, they might have saved that game if they'd realized it sooner.

I mean, looking at just the front page of the pvp forums right now, I see 6 seperate threads calling for the nerf of single abilities, and they're not even the same abilities that I saw nerf calls for a few hours ago. I mean really, at this point it seems every single power except maybe the energy builders has someone going OMG THIS IS SO OP WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN NERFED it's just stupid.

And the defensives that DID get nerfed yesterday? I have heard nothing but nonstop moaning and *****ing in game about how 'useless' they are now. And I know exactly what's going on. Now that the whiners got their way and they were nerfed, people are going to whine until they get buffed. And it won't stop. Whinewhinewhine do what I want or I'll spam the forums with hate threads.

Welcome to the internet, abandon all hope ye you enter here.

[Archived Post]

I second everything Anxiety just said.

Ever since the end of open beta, before patching, every ability had a counter to it. If you fought a regen guy who blocked too much, you prevented him from blocking. If you had a PFF user, you did high burst damage to overpower the PFF.

Nerf, as a term, is so overused now that it's lost all meaning. Many issues, and there will be issues, are often fixable with minor adjustments. Right now, people are constantly complaining about their inability to solo anything in PvE due to the reduction in powers in the recent patch.

Well here's the thing: Since OB, I've solo'd Fight Club every time I create a new character, and I've created a lot. My PvP record is often 9-12 / 0, or at most 1 death. I solo Ferd, the first "Big unsoloable boss", Klaus, and everything else I come across.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: not every build will be effective against everything else. You will have weaknesses. When you discover those weaknesses, you shore them up so they're not so weak anymore, or you suffer through it. There ARE counters. Go out and find them already.

[Archived Post]

Even KNOWING how to avoid them /block you can still get wtfrocked by someone using a hold that stops you from blocking, or crippling challenge with a hold. This crud is not rocket science. Simply staying away from someone who's giving it their all to kill you isn't going to suffice.

[Archived Post]

And the defensives that DID get nerfed yesterday? I have heard nothing but nonstop moaning and *****ing in game about how 'useless' they are now. And I know exactly what's going on. Now that the whiners got their way and they were nerfed, people are going to whine until they get buffed. And it won't stop. Whinewhinewhine do what I want or I'll spam the forums with hate threads.


Devs already stated that the defensives were nerfed strickly for PVE reasons.
Mini-mines are OP, thats a fact. I'd say moreso in PVE then PVP, since you can usually block/avoid them, but they make PVE a cake walk. Damage is fine they just need to have the same cool down as particle mines(27seconds) so they can't be spammed.
The game already has the easiest PVE I've ever seen and you want it even easier?

[Archived Post]

How can a stationary object be OP?

[Archived Post]

How can a stationary object be OP?

Compare it to a guillotine. Harmless unless someone knocks you out and/or forces your head into place. Stationary objects can be OP.

[Archived Post]

After my last post, I went to a cage match and got hit by it.


I survived.

With a lot of health left.

Failing to see issue.

[Archived Post]

After my last post, I went to a cage match and got hit by it.


I survived.

With a lot of health left.

Failing to see issue.

Keep playing scrub.

[Archived Post]

After my last post, I went to a cage match and got hit by it.


I survived.

With a lot of health left.

Failing to see issue.

Look what I did there.

[Archived Post]

Dont mini-mines activate when you go withing melee range? did you ever try to, I dunno, go around them? I dont use them but i laugh at the people that run into them and complain that they are op :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

As a top PVPer, I strongly agree that Mini-Mines should be nerfed. If nothing else, a 5 second cooldown on this OPed instant-cast needs to be changed to something that's a little less ********. 30 seconds would likely be appropriate.

[Archived Post]

As a top PVPer, I strongly agree that Mini-Mines should be nerfed. If nothing else, a 5 second cooldown on this OPed instant-cast needs to be changed to something that's a little less ********. 30 seconds would likely be appropriate.

While i would have to agree with you that a timer needs to be added, wouldn't you, as a self proclaimed top pvper, realize ways to avoid these? Im not great but i barley even get affected by these anymore. There are ways to counter these as well as everything else in the game.

[Archived Post]

While i would have to agree with you that a timer needs to be added, wouldn't you, as a self proclaimed top pvper, realize ways to avoid these? Im not great but i barley even get affected by these anymore. There are ways to counter these as well as everything else in the game.


I know how to avoid these, and I completely tool the gimps that solely rely on mini-mines to win fights. Doesn't mean that the ability doesn't need a nerf, however. But, the "counter" to this ability involves being capable of blocking, and most savy PVPers incapacitate their targets before dumping these on them, effectively preventing you from being able to count them. And, the bottom line is, if someone sonic devices their two stacks of ranked mini mines while you're held, there's an extremely high chance that you're going to die unless you've been spiking Con.

But all that aside - We've got a 5 second cooldown for an instant ability that can litterally one-shot a level 30 under optimal circumstances, and two to three shot them under poor circumstances, and you don't think this needs a nerf? Get real.

[Archived Post]

Look what I did there.

Ah, but here's the thing. You want them nerfed, purportedly for PvE reasons because it makes PvE too easy unless I'm mistaken and that was someone else.

You also use PvP as an example of how overpowered they are when people use holds.

All your argument consists of is "they do too much damage and people can hold to keep you there". People can break holds. People can move away from mines. Battlefield awareness is a major part of PvP, and if you know someone's got mines, you can stay far enough away from them that when they hold you, you break it and walk away before they go off.


In regards to PvE, there's plenty of powers that if used properly are very powerful. Heck, you can use summons to basically sit back and avoid all damage while the summons do all the work. If you "nerf" it though, it has a direct affect on everything else. If you nerf it for pvp, it affects pve.

I've yet to see a concise, well thought out suggestion. As much as I hate to say it, even adding a cooldown requires proper balance testing, even if it's the easiest solution. Some of Cryptic's earlier patches notwithstanding, it's never as simple as "Throw on a cooldown and that's it."

At least, it shouldn't be.

So other than complaining about how OP and broken everything is, you start offering real suggestions with solid explanations and reasons why it would be effective and prudent?

I do with every counter argument I give, my last post was more of a statement than counter-argument. Counters have been suggested for power combos that are being used with mini-mines. I've yet to see a valid argument that shows someone can't just keep their distance in PvP, nor how it's OMG SUPER STRONG in PvE -above and beyond other AoEs to such a degree that you cannot possibly think of PvEing without it-.


Oh, and let's be clear here:

Minor adjustment != nerf.

A nerf is when you make an ability completely and utterly useless. So no, I don't see any reason to nerf any ability.

[Archived Post]

I've yet to see a concise, well thought out suggestion. As much as I hate to say it, even adding a cooldown requires proper balance testing, even if it's the easiest solution. Some of Cryptic's earlier patches notwithstanding, it's never as simple as "Throw on a cooldown and that's it."
.

If Ego Choke can go from having no cooldown to a 15 second cooldown, I don't see why Mini Mines can't go from having a 5 second cooldown to a 20 second cooldown.

[Archived Post]

Ah, but here's the thing. You want them nerfed, purportedly for PvE reasons because it makes PvE too easy unless I'm mistaken and that was someone else.

You also use PvP as an example of how overpowered they are when people use holds.

All your argument consists of is "they do too much damage and people can hold to keep you there". People can break holds. People can move away from mines. Battlefield awareness is a major part of PvP, and if you know someone's got mines, you can stay far enough away from them that when they hold you, you break it and walk away before they go off.


In regards to PvE, there's plenty of powers that if used properly are very powerful. Heck, you can use summons to basically sit back and avoid all damage while the summons do all the work. If you "nerf" it though, it has a direct affect on everything else. If you nerf it for pvp, it affects pve.

I've yet to see a concise, well thought out suggestion. As much as I hate to say it, even adding a cooldown requires proper balance testing, even if it's the easiest solution. Some of Cryptic's earlier patches notwithstanding, it's never as simple as "Throw on a cooldown and that's it."

At least, it shouldn't be.

So other than complaining about how OP and broken everything is, you start offering real suggestions with solid explanations and reasons why it would be effective and prudent?

I do with every counter argument I give, my last post was more of a statement than counter-argument. Counters have been suggested for power combos that are being used with mini-mines. I've yet to see a valid argument that shows someone can't just keep their distance in PvP, nor how it's OMG SUPER STRONG in PvE -above and beyond other AoEs to such a degree that you cannot possibly think of PvEing without it-.


Oh, and let's be clear here:

Minor adjustment != nerf.

A nerf is when you make an ability completely and utterly useless. So no, I don't see any reason to nerf any ability.

My reason is basically the same as Tenebrion's. The higher I go in pvp the more I see builds focused solely on mini mines for damage. Tenebrion makes all the right points, someone with half a brain would know to make the target incapable of defending themself in order to increase chances of it hitting and killing the target. Also with the recent nerfs to defensive passives, mini mines are even more deadly. You cannot avoid them everytime. Especially if the opponent has a working brain.

[Archived Post]

Yeah seriously. Noone uses mines as mines. They use them as burst damage gankathon devices. Their AOE is also larger than it looks so when used at point blank you usually have to block; trying to dodge is too risky. Combine with Taser Arrow or Condemn for GG.

[Archived Post]

Especially if the opponent has a working brain.[/COLOR]

See, my argument is a build built entirely around a single power generally means you don't have a working brain.

Why? I'll elaborate, since you didn't choose to. Let's use the example of another recent "OMG TOO POWERFUL" ability, that while minor adjusting may be in order, can also be avoided very very easily. Using the same method, even: walking away.

Player A uses holds and micro-mines.

Player B knows holds are micro-mines are popular builds. For the sake of argument, let's say it's Electrocute that's the current FoTM. Player B is aware of this and makes a build that has gear swaps for added resists to electricity as well as hold breaking stats.

Player A activates the hold and charges at Player B. B is in Build A, an offensive build without the extra counters. Player B dies.

Player B, the clever fellow he is, now knows that Player A likes using this attack. Player B switches builds, with the very nice and easy to use build swap feature, and now has resists against electrocute. Player B, which I didn't mention before, is an archery/munitions hybrid.

Player A sees Player B. A thinks B is easy prey because he fell to the trick before. A tries it again. This time, B breaks out before A has completed his maneuver (and yes, this can be done with holds).

B throws a frag grenade and knocks back Player A because A is too close. While knocked down, B begins charging Taser arrow. The arrow, as well all know, has a very high hold (practically 100% chance) when fully charge.

A is now held. B backs up a bit and does it again before the hold wears off. B persists in this manner, using frags whenever a hold wears off earlier than expected.

Who do you figure will die there?


Is this proof that taser is overpowered? No, because player A wasn't built to resist holds. He wasn't expecting it like the clever player B was, since he was built purely for hold + mines.

But wait! That's too complicated, so let's use an easier example.


Player B now has smoke grenade + advantage. B still dies the first time. The second time, B's keeping an eye out 'cause he died the first time. I'd wager that A's been fighting other people and chances are doesn't have 100% energy. B sees him, sees his energy low, and throws the smoke grenade.

The advantage causes energy build to be... well, pretty much nonexistent. Now player A has no energy to do the hold + mines and is forced to run away or risk dying.



Are there things Player A could have done to make things easier on himself? Yes, just as there are other abilities and actions Player B could take that would make it easier for him. This is just a random example. It's also an example that's viable if Player A uses Taser.



In response to Tenebrion:

You left out the sentence directly below the rest of the quote. Please don't take partial quotes like that. I didn't say it couldn't be done, I said it shouldn't be done without proper testing and balance. I would like to think Cryptic did before many of the recent changes, but considering the oddly timed appearance of the Test Server, I highly doubt it.

I also agree that a cooldown adjustment is the easiest and likely most successful change to mines. My argument is that even if they're strong, it's not like you can't do things to beat a common build. I also state that an extra 15 second cooldown is not a "nerf", as many would proclaim it to be.

I'm hesitant against a 20 second cooldown in all honesty, simply because of nanobot swarm... Which is a clear indication of why it should be thoroughly tested with various powers before reaching the live server.

I'll say it again since it was cut out of your quote:

At least it should be.

>.>

[Archived Post]

I think its a little silly to be calling out shotgun when the issue is knockback. As for mini mines, yes I agree having just picked them up I'm able to easily solo PvE 2-3 team missions 2-3 levels above me, its not easy granted but that should be impossible.

[Archived Post]

Please look how they broke force surge last patch...

What does force sheathe have to do with surge? Hmm? Nothing.

[Archived Post]

Ok, all I did tonight was pvp and I am still not seeing where mini mines are OP. I don't use them but I ran into a few people who did use them and every time all the did was fill my end bar because i would actually throw up a block. Ya know the [Shift] key. :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

How can a stationary object be OP?
Mini mines are not OP by themselves. They are OP when combined with other powers, namely knockback (shotgun esp), lariet pull, and esp hold. It's irrelevant that they don't move if you also don't move. And I've got all my gear possible as being +hold resist and it won't break me out in time to avoid minimines if the enemy was closeish. Saying I have to hit him first, and not only hit him, but completely disable him forever, is a bit extreme. Because if they get that stacking hold off, you're going to die.

And I'm a ranged class. My strategy is if I see anyone getting remotely near me, I teleport like a ***** and run away, because they may be about to do something mean. A melee class, I have no idea what they can do. But if you get held, you're going to get mined and you're going to die, because you can't block and can't move.

[Archived Post]

Mini mines are not OP by themselves.

In that case its not OP. Its the skill of the player and a thought out tactic for a pvp build.

[Archived Post]

Yeah I just teleport away from the mines........

[Archived Post]

What does force sheathe have to do with surge? Hmm? Nothing.

em there is no force sheath its called force surge. kk ty

[Archived Post]

em there is no force sheath its called force surge. kk ty

Force Sheathe = force block advantage that lets it persist a few seconds after you stop blocking

Just so you can add it to your boundless reserves of knowledge.

[Archived Post]

From what i've personaly seen from Mini-Mines (as in i've had them used on me not the other way around), is that if thier placed when your not moving they WON'T Detonate, and i can normaly jump up and out of them or fly straight up with out setting them off, the only way i've personaly seen to get them to detonate agenst stationary targets is to pull the target to you or knock them backwards so the mines can trigger, since thier PROXIMITY, as in motion sensitive, as to of why flying striaght up dosent set them off i don't know.

[Archived Post]

/Translator On

I don't have my own form of CC because I built a dps toon. Since I can't hold you, but you CAN hold me, something is wrong. Also, mini-mines are overpowered becuase I don't know how to move yet so I keep autorunning into the FLOATING CLOUDS OF GIANT MINES. Sometimes people hold me then throw mines. I have NO CLUE how to block, so I just get rocked over and over while held.

/translator off

Of all ae powers out there, this is perhaps the EASIEST to avoid or mitigate.

dude did u just say auto run in pvp wow umm there something wrong with that and i give u kno right to complain out of ur sheer lazyiness and lack of effort to stray away from mines

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dude did u just say auto run in pvp wow umm there something wrong with that and i give u kno right to complain out of ur sheer lazyiness and lack of effort to stray away from mines

The sheer irony of this poster complaining about sheer laziness and lack of effort is great. Even greater still that his sarcasm sense seems a bit lost.

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looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

So I fought my first B.A.S.H. today at level 26 and had absolutely no problem with the Shotgun/Mini-mine combo.

I am spec'd

Electric Shock (Power Builder)
Ice Blast (DD Nuke w/ snare chance)
Ice Cage (Lvl 2 - AoE Nuke w/ Root type affect)
Force Eruption (Melee AoE w/ Knockback Charge)
Condemn (AoE Nuke/Hold)
Ice Blast (AoE Nuke Knock Up)
Regeneration (Lvl 3)
Shotgun (Lvl 3 w/ Power regain chance)
Force Shield /w Sheathe (Block w/ energy gain)

Travel Power: Flight
Innate Abilities: Electric Potential, Super Dexterity, Super Endurance

Now realize I built my toon without having played Beta or knowing anything about the game prior. I do know that I have a great cheesy combo to counter spammers... then again I took my time selecting those powers.

The most common opponent I ran into was the Teleport Shotgun/Mini-mine or Flight Shotgun/Mini-mine.

The battles in the B.A.S.H. were fairly well drawn out and ended up 2-0 with the other highest scores being 3-3 and 2-6 everyone else was 0-something

Shotgun spammers are most easily countered by Blocking then counter cc'ing them. Kiting is also a good way to defeat the Shotgun Spammer if you have a better 100 ft counter to his 50ft spam.

Most shotgun spammers are not built with endless Endurance... and thus Blocking all their shots keeps you from being spammed to death and makes you the least likely target of their focus.

I would highly suggest getting a Block power to help assist you.

Mini-mines are only useful if they can get you to move into them to trigger. Even when knocked out of flight and brought to the ground I BLOCKED until I could re-trigger flight or use one of my myriad of CC powers to contain the Shotgun spammer.

I am not a well focused DPS character but I can cc like no other and that's how I ended up getting my kills.

The Shotgun Spamming characters ended up running away from me after awhile because they realized they couldn't do enough DPS fast enough with their spam to kill me as I was Blocking constantly and cc'ing them in return.

Now, obviously not every character is built along the same lines I am.

But Blocking regardless with -always- provide you a better means to handle the spammers then to try to take them on directly.

Using counter CC to interrupt their Shotgun spam chain will also give you breathing room to regen some health, get away, or just reposition for a better spot in the fight.

I don't know what your power set up was but perhaps you could share and then you might get some suggestions to help you counter the Shotgun Spammer.

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Mine tactic defenders are either spamming them non stop or are just doing it for the lulz/trollz.

The argument about avoiding them is sheer sillyness. I dont know what matches they are playing in but most decent pvp matches can get quite intense and if there are two mine spammers you will have practically zero chance of avoiding them. Add on the fact that the mine spammer may well have some amount of ability and will be using mines in conjunction with holds/pulls etc the chances of using the touted "JUST AVOID" tactic are just plain trolling.

And for the other touted counter mine spammer tactic ie- blocking, just grow up. Any pvp'er who is using a mine spam build has a high chance that they know how to easily counter blocking using either holds/kb or plain old taunting attacks.

And again claims that mines dont do heavy damage are pure fantasy. Ok I accept that your survivability build can weather them ok with your maxxed out defensive plus heals and other mitigation but that road leads us to the fotm must have build areas I am sure any sensible player knows we really dont want to travel.


The mines are obviously being abused. Go into any pvp match and just watch how effective they are.

But hey we all like to troll for lulz now and again. But if you defenders are really arguing the case because you believe mines are not abusive you are deluded pure and simple. Maybe instead of hysterically trying to knock down peoples justified ire towards mines you could actually offer some realistic feedback?

Seems simple to me as a previous poster mentioned. Cooldown timer.

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Mine tactic defenders are either spamming them non stop or are just doing it for the lulz/trollz.

The argument about avoiding them is sheer sillyness. I dont know what matches they are playing in but most decent pvp matches can get quite intense and if there are two mine spammers you will have practically zero chance of avoiding them. Add on the fact that the mine spammer may well have some amount of ability and will be using mines in conjunction with holds/pulls etc the chances of using the touted "JUST AVOID" tactic are just plain trolling.

And for the other touted counter mine spammer tactic ie- blocking, just grow up. Any pvp'er who is using a mine spam build has a high chance that they know how to easily counter blocking using either holds/kb or plain old taunting attacks.

And again claims that mines dont do heavy damage are pure fantasy. Ok I accept that your survivability build can weather them ok with your maxxed out defensive plus heals and other mitigation but that road leads us to the fotm must have build areas I am sure any sensible player knows we really dont want to travel.


The mines are obviously being abused. Go into any pvp match and just watch how effective they are.

But hey we all like to troll for lulz now and again. But if you defenders are really arguing the case because you believe mines are not abusive you are deluded pure and simple. Maybe instead of hysterically trying to knock down peoples justified ire towards mines you could actually offer some realistic feedback?

Seems simple to me as a previous poster mentioned. Cooldown timer.

For every good post, 4 idiots defend with "I play a match today and I block mines and no die at all." Clearly playing in some alternate reality where mine users aren't present or lack the ability to kill even. I love how they deny the issue to make people think there isn't one.

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em there is no force sheath its called force surge. kk ty

This alone shows why you shouldn't pvp or post on things you know little about. Winston Churchilll said it best: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than open it and prove them right" ... Sir Winston Churchill

Its an advantage and spiffy one at that!

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I'd go so far as to even say they should just keep the gametypes separate, no pve in the pvp MMOs and vice versa. WAR was ruined by it, the game balance was BETTER at launch then it is now. So many random nerf calls that everything has been gutted to the core except straight DPS, and the biggest DPS class just mows everything else down over there now without any counters. The WAR Devs eventually just gave up and stopped trying. No matter what they did someone was going to be unhappy, they might have saved that game if they'd realized it sooner.

I mean, looking at just the front page of the pvp forums right now, I see 6 seperate threads calling for the nerf of single abilities, and they're not even the same abilities that I saw nerf calls for a few hours ago. I mean really, at this point it seems every single power except maybe the energy builders has someone going OMG THIS IS SO OP WHY HASN'T THIS BEEN NERFED it's just stupid.

And the defensives that DID get nerfed yesterday? I have heard nothing but nonstop moaning and *****ing in game about how 'useless' they are now. And I know exactly what's going on. Now that the whiners got their way and they were nerfed, people are going to whine until they get buffed. And it won't stop. Whinewhinewhine do what I want or I'll spam the forums with hate threads.

Welcome to the internet, abandon all hope ye you enter here.

This! and this and this!!!!

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This alone shows why you shouldn't pvp or post on things you know little about. Winston Churchilll said it best: "It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than open it and prove them right" ... Sir Winston Churchill

Its an advantage and spiffy one at that!

realy I am a force build and the power is called force surge.. Look it up and to quote the sarcasem in your post I was talking about a power and not an advantage. There is no reason to be rude about this bro.

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realy I am a force build and the power is called force surge.. Look it up and to quote the sarcasem in your post I was talking about a power and not an advantage. There is no reason to be rude about this bro.

Bro broski dude, it's the internet!

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realy I am a force build and the power is called force surge.. Look it up and to quote the sarcasem in your post I was talking about a power and not an advantage. There is no reason to be rude about this bro.

but he was talking about an advantage! not a power! Oh never mind. :rolleyes:

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I have had my Mini-Mines countered plenty of times. I have tossed them out and then see people immedeitly BLOCK and take almost nothing in dmg. I have had people Lock me down as soon as mines are dropped and spam their range attacks. And i have had people just run out of the mine field, pretty mush wasintg my energy. Granted it can do Nasty dmg to Players when you catch them at the right time. But, at least for me, it has not been an 'I Win' button.

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I have had my Mini-Mines countered plenty of times. I have tossed them out and then see people immedeitly BLOCK and take almost nothing in dmg. I have had people Lock me down as soon as mines are dropped and spam their range attacks. And i have had people just run out of the mine field, pretty mush wasintg my energy. Granted it can do Nasty dmg to Players when you catch them at the right time. But, at least for me, it has not been an 'I Win' button.

Clearly not doing it right.

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Clearly not doing it right.

What's doing it right, then? I haven't found them that awesome except when I have a particularly nasty meleer who can throw me out of the air.

They could stand a CD nerf, but other then that the power seems fine. And maybe they don't need it, the energy cost is almost 75% of my energy.

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looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

QQ

Those people who you claim have no skill are still beating you. What does that say about you?

How about you stop whining and get better at not running into giant clouds of mines...

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No lie, in pvp when I use mini mines, some people see it and for some odd, drug induced reason, they run right into them. Then they ask me not to use them, so I don't, and then I use Ice Wall, which they run right into as well. Then they ask me not to use the Ice Wall, because "it's cheating", and "you suck". Maybe I should just use only ma energy builder and fight on a wing and a prayer :D.
That aside, when someone uses mini mines, I have yet to be crazy enough to run smack into them, and if they set them off close, my pinky pokes at the shift key, and Mr. Shifty tells my toon it's time to put his shield up and block. I won't say I'm a leet player, or I mastered the fine arts of pvp. I will say that I won't go running right into a floating group of bombs that doesn't move, and that when I loose, I loose, when I win, I win. When I loose though, I refuse to be broken and cry nerf, instead, I'll find my own way to solve the problem.
Sorta off topic: Can you imagine mini mines+wall of fire if the mines had homing tech? Man, that would make certain people much more ragey :rolleyes:

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I have really not seen what all the fuss is about mini mines. I don't use them, but I haven't had much trouble avoiding them in PvP.

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Mine tactic defenders are either spamming them non stop or are just doing it for the lulz/trollz.

The argument about avoiding them is sheer sillyness. I dont know what matches they are playing in but most decent pvp matches can get quite intense and if there are two mine spammers you will have practically zero chance of avoiding them. Add on the fact that the mine spammer may well have some amount of ability and will be using mines in conjunction with holds/pulls etc the chances of using the touted "JUST AVOID" tactic are just plain trolling.

And for the other touted counter mine spammer tactic ie- blocking, just grow up. Any pvp'er who is using a mine spam build has a high chance that they know how to easily counter blocking using either holds/kb or plain old taunting attacks.

And again claims that mines dont do heavy damage are pure fantasy. Ok I accept that your survivability build can weather them ok with your maxxed out defensive plus heals and other mitigation but that road leads us to the fotm must have build areas I am sure any sensible player knows we really dont want to travel.


The mines are obviously being abused. Go into any pvp match and just watch how effective they are.

But hey we all like to troll for lulz now and again. But if you defenders are really arguing the case because you believe mines are not abusive you are deluded pure and simple. Maybe instead of hysterically trying to knock down peoples justified ire towards mines you could actually offer some realistic feedback?

Seems simple to me as a previous poster mentioned. Cooldown timer.

This person knows what he's talking about. Most of the rest of the people in this thread don't.

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This person knows what he's talking about. Most of the rest of the people in this thread don't.

Nah, mines can be avoided if you (insert excuse here). Seriously, Charnell hit the nail on the head.

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I use mines, shotgun, and iron lariet in PvP since beta and after all this time i have been able to maximize the build to its full potential. I suggest you make a build of your own and try it out, learn the flaws and the strengths... then you will be able to PvP with the big dogs and not cry out NERF NERF at the slightest sign of defeat.

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Can't realy hold down the shift key in an ice cage bro .....

Is this a joke post?

Please tell me it is.

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Yeah, it your lack of pvp skill for running into them.

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I dunno what to say now I guess, I'll wait and see if the skill gets nerfed, which is a word that people shouldn't screw around with so willy nilly (played a good bit of mmos with nerf screamers completely destroying a class), and if it does get nerfed, then I'll just take it out. I recently took it, so it won't be hard to take it out. Maybe I should switch it with iron cyclone, or get TK Eruption... Dunno, so many choices... I'll decide on a proper butt whoopin skill cycle in no time, so me and the others out there with good strategy can expect to see another "nerf post" soon ;).

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How about this...

How about we just cry for nerf on character creation? I mean, heroes, they use powers, right? And powers -might- be overpowered in combination with other powers. And you poor lads and lasses might die in PvP! ...the horror.

Funny thing is, Mini-mines, they don't move. They can't target you. Don't step in them!

Problems with someone knocking you back? Hit them first and hit them hard with your own CC.

Jeez.

Okay, maybe I was too drastic on nerfing character creation. Instead, let's only be allowed to use energy builders in PvP. The same one... for everyone. And maybe one basic charge attack. And everyone will have to stand in a pair of big long lines. And we'll just fire volleys at the front line until we fall.

I like this. It'll be like the 1700s... but in my high-tech, state of the art video game.

lol, let me guess. you have both those powers?

its so easy to plant those mines, wait for someone to be engaged with someone else closeby and then just shotgun him in to the mines.

shotgun, mini mines, chill and TP are probably THE biggest FOTM reroller revielers when it comes to pvp. and more and more ppl get all 4 of them just because they are that overpowered. they are bad enough on their own, but used together theres almost nothing u can do but wait and die.

its worse then prenerf Ebon Rift fgs... /edit: and that power was REALLY overpowered in closed beta...

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My level 17 PA armor character helped a fire/mine user refine his build today.

The fire user was level 24.


His mines insta-killed me while I was held only once. He had a couple of lucky crits.



Anyway, if anyone's actually been paying attention to the public test server patch notes that Daeke so wonderfully provided (do not read that with sarcasm), you all would already know that mines are being changed.

Along with pyre.


How many of you still pushing for "NERF" actually took a look in there when the public test server was first announced, and when the so-far unchanged patch notes Daeke provided were posted?

Just curious.

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*cough* Umm.. let me just say that on my main character, who is a defensive melee/aoe crazyman, Mini Mines is probably one of my favorite powers.

With that said, I believe it is kind of OP'd for the role of "melee attack you can tap to do 1000 damage"

BUT! ... I do NOT think the right way to fix it would be a damage nerf or anything like that. I propose that they make the mines take time to arm. I don't mean a charge up... you should still be able to just toss them out between attacks... what I mean is that AFTER you deploy them, they should just sit there harmlessly for a couple seconds before they'll respond to the presence of enemies.

That way, you can still use them for area denial, as they are intended. And if you immobilize a melee opponent, you can still totally @#($ him with a bunch of mines in the face. But if someone is on their gaurd and you throw all those mines out, they should have a second or two during which they can backflip the heck out of there.

Sound fair enough?

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Another night of pvp and another night of not being killed by the not so OP mini mines. Even if you hit them they don't kill you in one shot.

Back in beta OP meant being one shotted. Not a power that you simply have to see comming and avoid. Even when you get kbed into them you wont die if you do something when you get up.

And I know this may sound stupid but do any of the people that cry about something being overpowered have any gear at all. Anything to boost there stats?

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Just don't run near them? If your held then block... Thats the shift key.

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Just don't run near them? If your held then block... Thats the shift key.

The best button in the game. But then again some people don't even buy a real block. And by some people I mean people who never use it in pvp or pve and think there regen or PFF should do all the work.

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Just don't run near them? If your held then block... Thats the shift key.

why is this the solution? You can do that to just about any power and negate it ,assuming you're able to block at the time its happening anyway.
(and you can't block while held unless you're already blocking.... which is likely a bug)

Point being look at the damage, the cast time, and the energy cost of the mines and say they are or are not overpowered comparatively to other skills. Not "just use block... the universal counter to everything!!". Thats not how you balance something or even look at balance.

They (the mines) are mildly overpowered in pvp and probably more overpowered in pve. Thats pretty much a double negative, they are LIKELY going to get nerfed (more for the pve than the pvp id imagine)
Plus you can't ignore the fact that they are one of the more popular abilities being spammed in pvp. I would say roughly 50% of the characters I see have it.

They probably need a windup time or a real cooldown or something (or both).
I don't really think the damage is out of line for its energy cost though.

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They are a bit powerful, but there's really not much skill to mmo pvp anyways unless you count teamwork. Certain powers will always counter other powers. If you just happen to enter a duel with someone built to counter your build and he destroys you, does that mean he's more skilled? Not really. It just means that he was lucky enough to have the paper to your rock.

There is skill involved when you can design a build that can adjust to all situations easily, but there's not really much skill to playing it. If the other person had the exact same skills, they'd probably be spamming the same 4 buttons too.

I do think they are powerful and I've never used them myself, but as long as they have to be charged like other AOEs, then I'm ok with some slight tweaks but not gutting the power.

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I do think they are powerful and I've never used them myself, but as long as they have to be charged like other AOEs, then I'm ok with some slight tweaks but not gutting the power.

They don't have to be charged, but I think thats probably the "nerf" that they need (is a chargeup time).

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lol, let me guess. you have both those powers?

its so easy to plant those mines, wait for someone to be engaged with someone else closeby and then just shotgun him in to the mines.

shotgun, mini mines, chill and TP are probably THE biggest FOTM reroller revielers when it comes to pvp. and more and more ppl get all 4 of them just because they are that overpowered. they are bad enough on their own, but used together theres almost nothing u can do but wait and die.

its worse then prenerf Ebon Rift fgs... /edit: and that power was REALLY overpowered in closed beta...

You forgot Taser Arrow.

I wonder if the global nerf to defenses is the major reason we're only seeing a lot of these now.

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Mines in them self arnt a problem at all... you can easily avoid them by flying. you stil lhave 0.5 sec to block if someone drops em on you, theyr static and wont hit you unless you either run into them or your to dumb to move.

Only thing that should be changed is that mines should not activate on people being held.

As for the shotgun the main issue seems to be the increasingly popular instant shotgun glitch.. but I can imagine the 1 sec charge knockback is bad aswell.

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Adding a longer reuse delay to minimines would be a good solution. 30 seconds sounds about reasonable.

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You forgot Taser Arrow.

I wonder if the global nerf to defenses is the major reason we're only seeing a lot of these now.

Taser arrow I am seeing more of, and I've been using it extensively b/c its a nice little skill, but I'm not sure its overpowered. Whats good about it in my opinion is that its one of the few low energy, non maintained stuns, so you can use it and then do other stuff to a stunned guy. But its not something you can spam over and over like pyre in beta, or teleport now as a you lose button.

Its part of a combo, and I think that therefore it is okay. People can interrupt combos or at least respond to them, and there is some degree of timing needed to maximize a combo as opposed to teleport resetting whenever the f you want or chain KBing a guy with the old pyre/shotgun until he's dead.

Minimines I sort of see as okay too. I don't use them myself but when they're just dropped on me I have enough time to get out, and when I don't or I get pulled into some its sorta meh damage considering the setup time. With the explosion delay of what it is, I really think people should be able to handle them by learning to play or block, so to speak.

Maybe its a little overpowered but I don't think skills which are a little overpowered need that much attention. A 20 second recharge would probably do it...but its not really a cheap skill to use if i remember correctly so it sort of has a built in timer.

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longer cast time would probably help more. arcane sigils do much less damage than minimines and take much longer to cast.

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Well I've been dealing with mines and the other extra-popular powers. For what they are and what they do I find nothign wrong.

The lack of originality when everyone is laying mini mines is sad, though.

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As an aside the only real reason I am waiting to see them tweaked is so that I don't feel dirty when using them. Currently PvP in Champions is more than a little funny anyway, I love the game but the out of control CC isn't much less lame than mine spam really. That being said, I totally recognize that mines in their current incarnation are more than a bit over the top, particularly in PvE.

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Well I've been dealing with mines and the other extra-popular powers. For what they are and what they do I find nothign wrong.

The lack of originality when everyone is laying mini mines is sad, though.

You cant blame the players for a lack of originality.

Cryptic did not give enough viable choices within each framework to even think about having a diverse PvP environment.

When the player base has access to the same pool of powers then the builds become homogenous. Just like in Magic The Gathering. At the Grand Prix level of play you only see 3 or 4 deck archetypes played by hundreds of people.

Cryptic needs to add about 20 powers to EACH framework and make those powers desireable but also make it so you cant just take all the best powers from each framework and mash them together, like my current PvP build which uses Shotgun Mini Mines Pyre Regen Ice and what ever else stands out.

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level 40 pvp = minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam minimines spam

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You cant blame the players for a lack of originality.

Cryptic did not give enough viable choices within each framework to even think about having a diverse PvP environment.

When the player base has access to the same pool of powers then the builds become homogenous. Just like in Magic The Gathering. At the Grand Prix level of play you only see 3 or 4 deck archetypes played by hundreds of people.

Cryptic needs to add about 20 powers to EACH framework and make those powers desireable but also make it so you cant just take all the best powers from each framework and mash them together, like my current PvP build which uses Shotgun Mini Mines Pyre Regen Ice and what ever else stands out.

This was bound to be an issue in any classless (skill based/mix n match) game, there's always the "build scholars" who come up with the one true build for the month. Sooner or later X power gets tweaked and the one true build falls apart until the next true build is discovered and everyone flocks to that one. I don't know that just a ton more powers will fix the issue. More likely it'll just take time to properly balance.

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I don't know of any competitive game out there that at high level doesn't devolve to 3-5 Tier 1 choices and a bunch of second rate Tier 2 ones that have circumstantial value depending on the situation (plus an infi number of Tier 3 garbage).

It's true of Street Fighter 2, SSBM, SSBB, Magic The Gathering, World of ******** Miniatures, Starcraft, etc etc etc.

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I think my biggest pet peeve is that there are cheap players that are building their characters around the mines. They chain stun you with elec arrows (The electric arrows are bugged and ignore the % vs hold), mine field you and then start it over again. One character I played against a couple of times even has the Iron Lariat so he can pull you into the mine field even if he missed with it. Pretty soon you will have PVP empty because this is getting old fast when it comes to spammers.

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Then again mines is the only way you have a chance of killing someone before they teleport of.

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I think my biggest pet peeve is that there are cheap players that are building their characters around the mines. They chain stun you with elec arrows (The electric arrows are bugged and ignore the % vs hold), mine field you and then start it over again. One character I played against a couple of times even has the Iron Lariat so he can pull you into the mine field even if he missed with it. Pretty soon you will have PVP empty because this is getting old fast when it comes to spammers.

Building cool little gimmicks can be fun, that's where I disagree with you. I think there should be more synergies out there. Having one makes PvP seem homogenized, with a couple of non-conforming builds weak for easy pickings.

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Nerf begets nerf begets nerf. If we continue down this road... the game's going to be crappy.

As a mine user myself, I do believe the cooldown could use some tweaking. You can just toss so many of these with the current setting. I'd say double or triple the cooldown time, that'll make things more challenging without rendering the power useless.

As for PVP, I think we really still have a lot more to learn about the powers and their potential combos. This MMO has one of the most flexible power/ability customization systems around, after all. I wouldn't be surprised that these mines are the least of your worries as the game (and players) develops. If you think everything's been done, then it's your imagination that's gimped, not the game.

Let the fun times roll...

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Building cool little gimmicks can be fun, that's where I disagree with you. I think there should be more synergies out there. Having one makes PvP seem homogenized, with a couple of non-conforming builds weak for easy pickings.

Unfortunately it is bugged since basically I have a tank that has a high str & ego. Yet 80% of the time I am hit with a electric arrow it locks me down. Don't get me wrong, I like the arrow and have another character that uses it. But when I specifically built a tank that should be nearly impossible to lock down, then have land mines that do a few thousand points of dmg. Then it is silly.

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Minimines have 0 side effects.

No knockback/up, no hold, no nothing. It has only damage, and it can be blocked.

There are ways around that, unlike the hold spammers...

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Ok, tonight I used most of my resources to retcon and get mini mines. The only way they are good is if you have outside dmg buffs to go along with them. Alone there is nothing OP about it. Stop the whining. Its people building things to combo off each other that's deadly. The way pvp should be.

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Lunation, the more you post the more I like you.


Additionally, I find it quite interesting that nobody has responded to my earlier question. Specificly, those who continue to talk about mini-mines...

Have you checked the changes to mini-mines proposed on the test server by the Devs themselves, as relating to Daeke's patch notes posted for those members of the community who take part in actually helping test and balance potential issues?

And:

Having knowledge of that particular set of patch notes, are you continuing to discuss it under the assumption that the mines will remain as they are, or are you taking the "Prevenge" approach and pre-complaining that they're still overpowered with the changes that will, by all evidence, be taking effect at some point in the near future?



Just curious. Honestly, I am. I like finding out how people tick.

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I think you'll find most people talk about what exists now and what's in play now.

I just did the Menton mission with a pub person I found and we both had lvl 1 mini-mines with no bonuses, and we were taking down super villains (+3 on me, even with her) and their henchmen as soon as they appeared. It was pretty silly.

I have them because I only got 3 munitions powers and I want to get snipe and it kind of makes sense to set up a defensive perimeter so I can be ranged. And I need to get the 5 powers in Munitions and not a whole more I want. But as silly as they are for PvP, they are also pretty damn bad in PvE. My lvl 3 chaingun does more in a line, but the lvl 1 mines are better for radius groups close by and with multiple users it's pretty much game-breaking. I can't imagine lvl 2 with wall of fire and 3+ users.

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sorry it took me this long to respond! HEY EVERYONE! i wanna give a shout out to all my peeps! you guys rule


IM NAJAHO

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Hi Najaho, I'm JPX-950, how's it hangin'?

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Whats funny is how I just fought him lmao. I use mini mines because it's a skill of mine, tell mages to not use pyro if you dont like it :)

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In pvp, I can "Root", "Hold", "Chill" whatever you want to call it. Than i can simply go up to them with my travel powers fast. Than i can cast mini mines. Oh and it will hurt then! It will also hit them. Don't come here and tell me they can dodge me cause I DON'T DO IT IN A MANNER WHERE THEY CAN DODGE IT. Do you people don't see this, or understand this?. I use mini mines and they are FU*King over powered. You people telling me you can dodge it are pretty much the lv 20 pvp *****s in Powerhouse. I've pvp SMART great lv 40 vs lv40 players (where skills / stats are max and dmg is much higher) and boy where mini mines damm strong.

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My Main Character is Cypriss.

I made this character without ever having played OB, read up on the powers prior or known anything about them other than the character creation tool tips. (Exception was Regeneration which a friend told me was a good skill to have. That I selected based on his advice as I really had no clue what the other passives did at the time)

I did not even read the PvP forums until this past week.

I wanted to make an AoE/CC based hero.

I did not pre-plan my character at all or know what powers to take to take advantage in PvP. I just thought - well having multiple CC skills would probably be a really good idea.

So just in case you were wondering what you should not spec into because I've killed people in PvP and other people are upset about it... I imagine I will probably get nerfed pretty soon.

Here it is.

I am currently spec'd as the following at lvl 30:

Powers:

[I]Electric Bolt - 1 (I thought it would arc more often for more AoE)
Ice Blast - 1 (It's always good to have a snare)
Ice Burst - 1 (Large and strong AoE that knocks people up)
Force Eruption - 1 (To knock away mobs or just spam trap them in alleyways)
Mini-Mines - 2 (w/ double mine advantage) (I needed more AoE damage and this seemed like a good alternative since I didn't feel I needed another knockback)
Wall of Ice - 2 (It was my first cc, I love it. It hardly ever lands on people because they keep moving but I use it when someone tries to teleport away so that I can follow them)
Shotgun Blast - 3 (w/ Energy regain advantage) (This was my second cc/dmg spell. It has carried me through many levels and is one of the only knock back powers that does NOT give a bonus knockback resist % to it's victims)
Frag Grenade - 1 (Another Knockback)
Condemn - 1 (A small AoE Nuke/Hold. The charge time is long but since the Hold Protection is broken it can currently almost Perma hold monsters and opponents)
Regeneration - 3 (My friend told me it was good. Free passive healing is always a good idea)
Force Shield - 2 (w/ Force Sheathe advantage) (I thought having a block skill would be good. I liked the fact it gave me energy regeneration)
Flight - 2 (I like to fly. Teleport would have probably been a better PvP Twink choice but then again I prefer being able to stay above a fight and examine things or hover above groups of mobs and totally take advantage of their terrible AI so that they clump together and I can kill them more easily.)

Innate Characteristics:

Electric Potential
Super Dexterity
Super Endurance (I actually though Endurance worked like Recovery and Recovery worked like Endurance at character creation. I got lucky)

Talents:

Agile
Accurate
Energetic
Shooter
Tireless
Amazing Stamina

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Ok, tonight I used most of my resources to retcon and get mini mines. The only way they are good is if you have outside dmg buffs to go along with them. Alone there is nothing OP about it. Stop the whining. Its people building things to combo off each other that's deadly. The way pvp should be.


You obviously didn't rank them up properly or outright lying. Even a glancing the minefield can easily rip half your health off.


I don't know what is more amusing. The muppets trying to defend their "I WIN!" button or the fact we have been pointing this out to Cryptic since CB and they are still only just getting around to putting a half-hearted nerf in on them.

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Tonight I was hit by one set of mini mines after the bugged elec arrow hit my block 2 times and broke me into a over extended bugged hold. The mini mines did over 4k to me, since that was my health at the time.

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looks like cryptic missed a few powers to nerf on the first Mini Mines and Shotgun spammers...

so if you wana be op in pvp just get a hold and mini mines and you can win in all the arenas not sure why cryptic has not made a longer cool down on this power it is worse then ego choke that they made usless as a mantain power..

Shotgun Sallys are all around now spamming knock back that has no def at all in game..

So if you would like to be op in pvp just spam knock back gun and mini mines

And I am seeing the same player Najaho 10-0 in bash every game and thinking wow all he does is mini mines what great skill he has ....

careful, don't wanna clog those tear ducts.

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In pvp, I can "Root", "Hold", "Chill" whatever you want to call it. Than i can simply go up to them with my travel powers fast. Than i can cast mini mines. Oh and it will hurt then! It will also hit them. Don't come here and tell me they can dodge me cause I DON'T DO IT IN A MANNER WHERE THEY CAN DODGE IT. Do you people don't see this, or understand this?. I use mini mines and they are FU*King over powered. You people telling me you can dodge it are pretty much the lv 20 pvp *****s in Powerhouse. I've pvp SMART great lv 40 vs lv40 players (where skills / stats are max and dmg is much higher) and boy where mini mines damm strong.

The mines won't explode if the person near them doesn't move. Not that that fact proves they aren't overpowered or anything.

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Public Test patch notes for anyone interested:

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=55325

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=56042

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What's funny is that it's been a long long time since I've been excited about a MMO patch, and it's for all the wrong reasons.

Munitions: Shotgun Blast: Now applies a small amount of knockback resistance.

I've stopped doing any pvp thanks to this lovely skill, I can hardly wait.

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I've stopped doing any pvp thanks to this lovely skill, I can hardly wait.


lol are you really that bad?

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Last night I really started to get in the PvP mood, played around 20 UTC Cage matches in a row, while lving from 15-18. Shotgun blast I really don't care about, its annoying to get knocked around, but it doesn't do enough dps to worry me, besides as mentioned before the plan is to add knockback resistance to the shot.

Mini-mines, well at first it was tough I am a melee character with rocket jump for my travel power. I only have a few issues with them:

1) DPS is fine, I typically didn't die from them, and didn't feel that the DPS was too much

2) There needs to be a casting timer, or a longer recharge time. My thoughts on the are, its a maintained skill that costs X + Y/s amount of power, the longer you maintain the more mines are layed, so a quick press yields maybe 2-3 mines. Putting spec points into it could yield additional initial mines.

3) There needs to be a colour difference between Red Team and Blue Team, one match I had 2 mini-mine specc'd players on my team and one on the other team, there were mines everywhere, and I spent alot of time just avoiding them becuase I didn't know whose they were.

Now a few questions I had about them:

a) Are they destroyable?
Last night I swear I was able to destroy them with force eruption or telekinetic eruption? If the are not destroyable then they should be.

b) Do they have an activation timer?
I also swear I was able to rocket jump into enemy mines and rocket jump out, setting them off but taking only a small amount of the total capable damage.

c) Do they destroy themselves after a preset timer?
This would be a balance issue, to prevent too many from being layed at once, say after 10s they blow up whether activated by a person for not.

BTW the only time I felt overwhelmed by them was when I fought against what seemed to be a pre-made grp that made 4 mini-mine layers, We got worked, it was near impossible to move without hitting them.

Cheers

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seems to me all the mini mine problems would be solved if they made it so they can only explode 1 sec after casting. there by eliminating the problem of someone just doing instant aoe dmg with 1 click and no way to dodge. as for ppl pulling you into mines or any kind of TACTICS. im down for that still being viable.

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seems to me all the mini mine problems would be solved if they made it so they can only explode 1 sec after casting. there by eliminating the problem of someone just doing instant aoe dmg with 1 click and no way to dodge. as for ppl pulling you into mines or any kind of TACTICS. im down for that still being viable.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines (http://forums.champions-online.com/announcement.php?f=2&a=6). Thank you, Dionaea

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Ugh. No, guys, not a charge up time. I have to assert that it would be better if they still came out with just a tap, but if they would sit inert for a second or two before they'll actually explode.

Only thing that should be changed is that mines should not activate on people being held.

That idea is intriguing, actually. I wonder if they could make them movement-sensitive in general? No, never mine.. err, mind. A "pretend you're rooted.. OR ELSE" move wouldn't be much fun.

OOOH! What if they were detonated by doing attacks within their proximity? Like, OOPS, I accidentally punched your explosive device. D:

.. ... .. .. Nah. Forget it. Let's just get a 1 or 2 second period of inert-ness after summoning and call it fixed. Yeah?

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yea it would be awsome if an AOE blast hits m from afar but before it actually gets to me i can have 1 second to get out of the way.
Seriously?
Maybe if i see it coming i could hold block. oh block. how i love thee let me count the ways.

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*cough* Umm.. let me just say that on my main character, who is a defensive melee/aoe crazyman, Mini Mines is probably one of my favorite powers.

With that said, I believe it is kind of OP'd for the role of "melee attack you can tap to do 1000 damage"

BUT! ... I do NOT think the right way to fix it would be a damage nerf or anything like that. I propose that they make the mines take time to arm. I don't mean a charge up... you should still be able to just toss them out between attacks... what I mean is that AFTER you deploy them, they should just sit there harmlessly for a couple seconds before they'll respond to the presence of enemies.

That way, you can still use them for area denial, as they are intended. And if you immobilize a melee opponent, you can still totally @#($ him with a bunch of mines in the face. But if someone is on their gaurd and you throw all those mines out, they should have a second or two during which they can backflip the heck out of there.

Sound fair enough?

............No

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lol are you really that bad?

really that bad ? hes highly justified in his comment, shotgun knockback has had a much more damaging effect on pvp then mines ever did tough, I must agree that they do WAY to much dmg in lvl 20-30 pvp, 10-20 it seemed ok. when it comes to being knockback spammed it has nothing to do with ur skill, yes you can block normal shotguns knockback, but if they have the charge they will still knockback you.

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great more nerf callers to ruin my PVE toons. I wish companies would realize all the pvp cry babies ruin it for PvE and their should be separate powers for the 2.

how would that even work a completely seperet power tree for pvp and pve? may as well make it a different game, campions online PVP edition coming soon

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i played pvp all day yesterday and out of 20 games 19 had at least 1 toon just spaming crippling challange,lariats and mines

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i love all these threads crying for nerfs when you have ppl who dont block. dont have holds, dont use Crip challange, lets not talk about powers that can cancel Travel powers and put a lock on the too.

how about we just nerf everything even the graphics and go around fighting with stick figures like old school atari Shootout.

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What does any of that have to do with mines?

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really that bad ? hes highly justified in his comment, shotgun knockback has had a much more damaging effect on pvp then mines ever did tough, I must agree that they do WAY to much dmg in lvl 20-30 pvp, 10-20 it seemed ok. when it comes to being knockback spammed it has nothing to do with ur skill, yes you can block normal shotguns knockback, but if they have the charge they will still knockback you.

lol seriously?

ever heard of evasion through movement?

dying in this game requires work unless you are getting hold spiked by a 5 people with decent builds which is a real rarity...

i bet that quitter dude was running around in glass cannon build with no defensive passive, cause seriously, it takes a lot of work to die just because you're getting kb'd around in this game. it's not like there's a stalker ready to AS you when you get kb'd here...

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Last mmo i played where devs was following all the calls for nerf about pvp was warhammer online . Nowadays majority left it and only one build is fun : Bright Wizard . The others ? Nobody arent playing them anymore :p

Nerfs are a vicious circle after gimping one it will be another one and another one ... Until the entire game sucks Pvp and Pve

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Last mmo i played where devs was following all the calls for nerf about pvp was warhammer online . Nowadays majority left it and only one build is fun : Bright Wizard . The others ? Nobody arent playing them anymore :p

Only if you believe forum trolls :rolleyes:

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Actually there are multiple premade teams that everyone has Mini mines rank 2 + wall of fire in the 31-40 bracket.

Wall of fire and the cooldown are really what makes this ability OP.

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I think small imbalances are healthy. I think mini-mines are over the top, though. Way way way too powerful.

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Hmm..

I have played a TON of PvP and I hardly see mini-mines. I have also never been killed by them. I've played probably 100 PvP matches.

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So.. yesterday I played a bunch of great PVP games, lots of variety of powers, interesting fights.

Today I played a series of ****ass pvp games where there were 3+ players in each match spamming minimines.

I went and checked the combat log afterwards... a regular minimine hit me for (pre-resists) 2281 damage, and a wall of fire minimine hit me for (pre-resists) 3953 damage. Post resist it came out to 1966 and 3189 respectively.

this on a near instant cast power with short CD.

And of course most of the guys with minimines had ranked taser arrows too. Hooray. One time a guy on our side was holding 3 guys on their side simultaneously.

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lol seriously?

ever heard of evasion through movement?

dying in this game requires work unless you are getting hold spiked by a 5 people with decent builds which is a real rarity...

i bet that quitter dude was running around in glass cannon build with no defensive passive, cause seriously, it takes a lot of work to die just because you're getting kb'd around in this game. it's not like there's a stalker ready to AS you when you get kb'd here...

Want to know what the biggest problem is with mines (other than their outrageous damage and spamability :rolleyes: )....it's the simple fact that it makes it nearly impossible for a melee player to get close to someone using them. Just how am I supposed to build END and attack someone if I have to instead evade and block all the time?

Not to mention the fact that any time I use condemn on one of these spammers they dump out mines just before I condemn them so I either have to take the hit when I charge in, wasting most of the time I'm holding them blocking or I have to move to another target.

And yes, when any single attack hits me normally for 2.5k damage there is a problem. I do my best to avoid most mine spam or block it but this strategy is only about 70% effective. PvP combat is often very chaotic so taking it on the nose occasionally (especially for melee) is going to happen and I would like a melee attack I can spam that can dump 2.5k AoE damage every few seconds. :rolleyes: