How about.. i dunno.. Knockback Immunity?

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how about Knockback immunity? we already have stun/hold immunities... its anoying with the noobs that will just sit there and spam thier knock-back abilities so you cant do anything, blocking dosent even help since KB can at times ignore blocking, just a thought, and i say make Teleport/Tunneling invalid in PvP... its for cowards that can't stand thier ground.

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You lost me on the teleport/tunnelling thing, but I 100% agree on knockback immunity. Certain abilities also ignore knockback resistances, such as an advantaged shotgun, and have guaranteed knockback that can be applied near-infinitely. It really is ridiculous.

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Shotgun knockback advantage actualy says you have to wait i dunno if its 5-10 seconds before the advantage will stick again. sorry about the teleport/tunneling thing... jsut one of my buttons...

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Shotgun knockback advantage actualy says you have to wait i dunno if its 5-10 seconds before the advantage will stick again. sorry about the teleport/tunneling thing... jsut one of my buttons...

Then it is bugged in game, because there certainly is not such a "kb cooldown" on it now.

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The shotgun cooldown only effects it's charged KB, as it's 100%

The normal shotgun attack can still knockback normally. WAI.

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The shotgun cooldown only effects it's charged KB, as it's 100%

The normal shotgun attack can still knockback normally. WAI.

Right now, my only hope of getting out of the chain shotgun knockback is the briefly tap my confuse, then use that split second to sprint outside of line of sight and heal myself. Without other people hitting and disrupting the person, I have no way of actually fighting back against it, only keeping myself alive.

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... and i say make Teleport/Tunneling invalid in PvP... its for cowards that can't stand thier ground.

Its a useful power- Squishies use it, and use it well. Teleport is not an instant win button, but can be used effectively. Instead of complaining about it, why don't you use YOUR travel power to follow them? I have killed a good number of the TPers with my own TP and killed them on re-entry. With another Travel power, you can even out pace them, because your not having to get away. As for Tunneling- Dunno, Haven't found a counter to it yet, but it also has a really long timer. I would experiment with holds, KB's, Confuse, and whatever supposedly turns off travel powers.

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If you want knockback immunity then I want it to be a 100% knockback. It should also knock flyers out of the air instead of just making them go hiigher. Furthermore I want people to take equivalent fall damage for slamming into things like the wall. Then I could see why you would want immunity.


The shotgun cooldown only effects it's charged KB, as it's 100%

The normal shotgun attack can still knockback normally. WAI.

Shotgun has a VERY high chance of knockback by itself. Much higher than forcebolt and doesn't need to be charged. I will agree this one power needs "an adjustment" but let's not nerf the entire force powerset because of shotgun.

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If you want knockback immunity then I want it to be a 100% knockback. It should also knock flyers out of the air instead of just making them go hiigher. Furthermore I want people to take equivalent fall damage for slamming into things like the wall. Then I could see why you would want immunity.




Shotgun has a VERY high chance of knockback by itself. Much higher than forcebolt and doesn't need to be charged. I will agree this one power needs "an adjustment" but let's not nerf the entire force powerset because of shotgun.

/Agree with everything ^. As you can see by my sig, that would be upsetting. Anyway if shotgun is nerfed or fixed (if its truly bugged) than theres not really a reason for knockback immunity. Knockbacks you get up in like 1 second. Holds/stuns you are completely useless for a few seconds.

Plus if you have knockback immunity like the guy above me said, force will basically be useless... We'll get our 1 knockback every 5-10 seconds just for you guys to spam block and heal back up.

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If you are having issues with knockback, try gearing up for str, or kb resistance on gear.

Chain KB is the entire point of conc beam and PA for stating str. I for one would be very disappointed if suddenly that skill didn't work.

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Concussive beam is a push back and is a hell of a lot easier to deal with then a chain knock back.

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/Agree with everything ^. As you can see by my sig, that would be upsetting. Anyway if shotgun is nerfed or fixed (if its truly bugged) than theres not really a reason for knockback immunity. Knockbacks you get up in like 1 second. Holds/stuns you are completely useless for a few seconds.

Plus if you have knockback immunity like the guy above me said, force will basically be useless... We'll get our 1 knockback every 5-10 seconds just for you guys to spam block and heal back up.

LOL... Ok, Force would not be entirely useless. It would be _balanced_. Just take a look at powersets like Telepathy: Tons of CC and holds on standard attacks. In PVP 98% of those are completely useless. Sure its supposedly a "Support" type of framework but if you've tried making a successful "support" character in game, even for PVE, you'll realize that they don't really work. Go check out the Telepathy threads. Everyone is far more successful just playing fully offensively.

So we _could_ compromise by saying that any sort of "hold" has an equal chance to (= typical KB abilities) to hold the target for an equal amount of time that the typical KB takes from an opponent. So you knock me back, and I hold you, by the time I get up and can act again, the hold would drop for you. Sure that's fine, but then I have no doubt that the force guys would be crying just as much about the chain holds.

Knockback NEEDS a resistance buff. BADLY. 5 seconds of not being able to knock someone back does NOT break your whole power set. It just means you can't endlessly blast someone while they afk to get a drink before coming back to hit respawn. You still do damage, you still have all the bells and whistles your power set comes with. You'll just have to learn to fight when the enemy gets to fight too. Instead of being on his ass the whole time praying he can charge something up to hit YOU with.

Cryptic has obviously tried to prevent chain CC on a target so that people don't have that "stunned to death" that exists in so many other games. I just think that they completely missed the overuse of KB that exists now in PVP. As it is, I've got several characters of various builds ranging from 10-20. I can't say that KB weakens 20+ but given the way things appear to build up, I think it will only get worse, unless you stat and SS your characters from strength. I've PvPd with them all and in games where I'm not fighting 3-5 opponents with KB chains, I think the game has some pretty good balance in many other areas.

But when I get into a game with say, a Melee character and I've actually got to run TO my target, THEN try and dps, 9 times outta 10 I get knocked back by either a munitions guy or a Force user before I can even do some dmg. Sure I'll throw out a hold, which will stop em for 6-8seconds IF they haven't been held in the last 15seconds, and IF they don't resist it. So by the time I get to my target, I get off a few attacks (mostly negated by regen, Invulnerability, PFF etc) and then they shotgun me, or charge another knockback and shoot me across the room. At which point, its unlikely that I'll get up, and have a snowballs chance in hell to get all the way back to them, before their next KB (that they've already been charging while I was down) knocks be back further than I was before.

Currently, and I think most non-KB players will agree, Knockback in PVP is probably BY FAR the most irritating game mechanic. Second being the ridiculous defensive powers, which are irritating to kill through, but ATLEAST the defensive powers don't prevent me from actually PLAYING my character. Sure its hard to beat through a healing, invulnerable enemy, but I can still sling spells and cut big chunks of their flesh off them to wear them down.

Final Summary

-One should NOT have to superstat and gear focus STRENGTH simply to enjoy PVP and remain standing up for more than 50% of the match. Holds and snares don't bother me, just a challenge to push through. They have limitations (well atleast hold does) on usage.

-Knockback is a fun and effective mechanic when its under control. If there were even a 5 second KB resistance, it would go a long way. I still think 10 seconds is more than reasonable. It works great versus runners and knocking the melee off of you. But it should not be a crutch that everyone has to use, because everyone else uses it.

-If knockback doesn't get a resistance timer, then instead take away hold resistance, and introduce a 'reduced duration' so that any hold will still momentarily stop the target with each application, even if thats 1-3 seconds of interruption.

________________________________

As it is, I've been planning out a PvP specific character, and he's going to have all the knockbacks and KB resist possible, because lets face it. Thats whats winning and controlling PVP right now. See you all in the Hero Games :)

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how about Knockback immunity? we already have stun/hold immunities... its anoying with the noobs that will just sit there and spam thier knock-back abilities so you cant do anything, blocking dosent even help since KB can at times ignore blocking, just a thought, and i say make Teleport/Tunneling invalid in PvP... its for people who play smart and dont sit around waiting to be killed.

Fixed...

He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day.
-Sun Tzu

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If you are having issues with knockback, try gearing up for str, or kb resistance on gear.

Chain KB is the entire point of conc beam and PA for stating str. I for one would be very disappointed if suddenly that skill didn't work.

qft.

Let's not start dumbing down the game like CoH did.
You want kb immunity? It's called +str.

There are (and should be) powers that do extra large amounts of kb that will bypass +str. There won't be many and they should be on either cooldowns or DR, but they should still exist.
With my autoleveled to 40 toon with 100+ strength, I was able to kb most players (not all) with my Force Bolt consistently, and on rare occasions could I do chain kbs (3-4.)
Emphasis on 'rare' though.

Having to put so many stats in strength forces me to not put as many in other areas. Like dex/ego for damage, for example.

This is balanced, afaic.

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It's not so much the knockback from abilities that are the problem rather then knockdowns.

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If you are having issues with knockback, try gearing up for str, or kb resistance on gear.

Chain KB is the entire point of conc beam and PA for stating str. I for one would be very disappointed if suddenly that skill didn't work.

qft.

Let's not start dumbing down the game like CoH did.
You want kb immunity? It's called +str.

There are (and should be) powers that do extra large amounts of kb that will bypass +str. There won't be many and they should be on either cooldowns or DR, but they should still exist.
With my autoleveled to 40 toon with 100+ strength, I was able to kb most players (not all) with my Force Bolt consistently, and on rare occasions could I do chain kbs (3-4.)
Emphasis on 'rare' though.

Having to put so many stats in strength forces me to not put as many in other areas. Like dex/ego for damage, for example.

This is balanced, afaic.

I sincerely wonder if people who say "build for high STR" have a STR toon themselves. If you did then you would know that high STR does not prevent you from being chain KBed. In fact I think that STR doesn't do much at all when it comes to KB resistance. It *does* help with KB strength. Resistance? It either does nothing or the bonus is so small that it doesn't matter.

I ran into some dude in arena on my STR/CON Might toon and he was constantly KBing me with shotgun. I thought they nerfed it? Granted, he didn't KB me with every shot, but it was often enough that I couldn't mount ANY type of attack. If I tried closing the distance I got KBed. If I rooted him with Mighty Leap I got Kbed before I got get my next attack off. It was ridiculous. It competely nullified damn near every offensive option I had. I guess that's my fault for being one of the few remaining idots trying to melee. :rolleyes:

There absolutely needs to be some form of KB suppression. Quite honestly that will kill my Might toon since I heavily rely on the KB + fall damage from Roomsweeper, but it needs to be done ASAP.

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knock back resistance is a % chance knock backs will become repels, and some powers are non-resistible

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Also I don't think any of you realize how ridiculous KBing will become when/if organized guils start playing this game. Even if the devs nerf the KB powers individually, teams will still be able to chain KB players by having everyone rotate on their KB powers. So if you think it's bad now, just wait until you fight a team where EVERYONE has shotgun (or whatever) and they each take a turn KBing you while the others DPS.

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I sincerely wonder if people who say "build for high STR" have a STR toon themselves. If you did then you would know that high STR does not prevent you from being chain KBed. In fact I think that STR doesn't do much at all when it comes to KB resistance. It *does* help with KB strength. Resistance? It either does nothing or the bonus is so small that it doesn't matter.

I ran into some dude in arena on my STR/CON Might toon and he was constantly KBing me with shotgun. I thought they nerfed it? Granted, he didn't KB me with every shot, but it was often enough that I couldn't mount ANY type of attack. If I tried closing the distance I got KBed. If I rooted him with Mighty Leap I got Kbed before I got get my next attack off. It was ridiculous. It competely nullified damn near every offensive option I had. I guess that's my fault for being one of the few remaining idots trying to melee. :rolleyes:

There absolutely needs to be some form of KB suppression. Quite honestly that will kill my Might toon since I heavily rely on the KB + fall damage from Roomsweeper, but it needs to be done ASAP.

Totally this. I want to respec super strength out because its useless against knockback, which is why I got it damnit! I don't care about picking up huge crap, and i'm DB so I don't need knockback strength, I wanted the resistance! I've stacked it as high as I could before, and i'm still just getting bounced around by a shotgun without mercy. Soloed by a guy using only a shotgun, didn't help that I had LR as defense either *chuckle*

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You want kb immunity? It's called +str.

Having to put so many stats in strength forces me to not put as many in other areas. Like dex/ego for damage, for example.

So In your example, because you give up dex/ego for KB power, you sacrifice other stats. However, to be able to even deal with your KB which is buffed by your strength, I have to "put so many stats in strength it forces me to not put as many in other areas." Which means that I can't stat for what makes MY build good. I have to take STR which aside from KB resist, does nothing additional for my character/build (Aside from the +dmg that you would get with any other stat you SS as well).

With my autoleveled to 40 toon with 100+ strength, I was able to kb most players (not all) with my Force Bolt consistently, and on rare occasions could I do chain kbs (3-4.)
Emphasis on 'rare' though.

This is balanced, afaic.

Have you played in PvP recently? It is not rare it is very common, add in the fact that most people are now running KB builds. So lets say that 50% of the time you hit with X ability, it successfully knocks back. Now take yourself and multiply by 3-5. So 50% of the time, 3-5 people on your team are also using KBs. Many of them AREA knockbacks. Even if you alone Chaining them is rare, having 2-3 other teammates consistently knocking people back = consistent chain knockbacks.

Go play 10 games of PvP in say the 11-20 bracket as a melee character, or even another caster, that isn't statted for STR and has NO knockbacks of your own. Any other stat besides maxing STR. Then tell me it isn't the most unbalanced and overused CC in PvP and needs to be fixed.


This is not a flame, just trying to argue my side :)

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I personally think that a KD should give you a KD immunity if only for a few seconds but having said that, I have never found it an issue when I am with a decent team. The idiot with the KD can and should be wasted while he is spamming that. If i see ANYONE chilling or KBing people the first thing I do is tab target to them and give them a full dose of love in their poop shoot. It IS annoying but a good team trumps almost any "one power/stat build". There is an item from the Desert that provides +100% KB immunity. I saved it and sometimes use it if there is a shotgun squad though usually I just let em beat on me while my team picks one for execution the dmg is next to nothing and I do notice a massive increase in KB protection with block but it may be from a fix after these posts.

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Sorry but I dont agree with needing to tone down KB... yes I play force, yes at times I get tossed around as well...

But guys seriously, there are so many things in pvp that are insane, kb is just one of them.... if you want to counter it, slot up STR..... end of story...

Its fair for you to slot up dex and ego and crit me to death from 50 ft, but I cant slot up my str and blow you all over the place?

Its fair that you can slot up int and have your pets kill me quckly?

Its fair that you can take invul and slot up str and pick up a tank and kill me in 2 hits? and I hit you for 6 dmg?

Its fair that regen plus healbots = cant die?

The point is this, there is ALWAYS somthing that can beat your build... get used to it.... you spend your points on somthing besides str you will have a weakness to kb.... I think that is the way its designed...


At least that is how i see it...

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Sorry but I dont agree with needing to tone down KB... yes I play force, yes at times I get tossed around as well...

But guys seriously, there are so many things in pvp that are insane, kb is just one of them.... if you want to counter it, slot up STR..... end of story...

Its fair for you to slot up dex and ego and crit me to death from 50 ft, but I cant slot up my str and blow you all over the place?

So I slot up dex and ego. Now I can crit you more often and pretty hard. Does this mean when I cast and crit you, that you are now disabled for X seconds each time? Now that I have this amazing damage potential, does this mean I can even get a cast off?

Lets make this apples to apples:
I'm playing a Telepath/Darkness/Sorcerer. Each blast I have a chance to Hold/Fear/Root. There is currently no stat I can take that improves the chance nor the power/duration. (Ego does not, as stated Here (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=46699))

So I cast first and lets say the hold sticks, I may get off another attack before your hold/fear/root breaks. In the case of root, I do not, as you are able to cast back. Now that I've hit you once with that effect. It is completely worthless for another 10-15seconds. In the meantime, or likely before my first attack even hits, you are able to knock me back/down. You can then keep doing this with every attack.

Your KB and damage are therefore effective on me 100% of the time while you chain attacks.
My secondary effect hold/fear/root are only effective once every 10-15 seconds, and don't necessarily even disrupt your casting/attacking.

Tell me please how this is balance. I have a munitions character that is full Ego and Dex, no STR and his shotgun knocks back so reliably, that I have both the crit % and crit damage you mention above, AND I have a knockback.

Its fair that you can slot up int and have your pets kill me quckly?

I don't mean to be rude, but this is absolutely ridiculous. Have you ever tried pets? INT does almost NOTHING for them and their damage is a complete joke at best.

Its fair that you can take invul and slot up str and pick up a tank and kill me in 2 hits? and I hit you for 6 dmg?

Nope, defensive powers are also imbalanced at the moment. But remember, there's not a lot of tanks littering the arenas and who's to say you don't just KB through his str->KB resistance, and prevent him from picking it up in the first place. Second, if he's a melee it's probably his only option given your KB and the complete inability to get to you to melee you.

Its fair that regen plus healbots = cant die?

Nope healbots and regen are also currently imbalanced. The game isn't perfect and KB isn't the only issue. But it certainly is an issue

The point is this, there is ALWAYS somthing that can beat your build... get used to it.... you spend your points on somthing besides str you will have a weakness to kb.... I think that is the way its designed...

So lets disregard the above posts that talk about STR not being effective in resistance against KB (which I don't fully agree with)


To beat a strong KB build (the kind that are flooding pvp) that can keep me on my ass all day. You're saying

you spend your points on somthing besides str you will have a weakness to kb

Therefore we now dictate that:
All builds who want to PVP must
-Take STR as their superstat
-Take CON as their other SS
-Take Invulnerability
-Take Healbots
-Take Knockback attacks (because c'mon, we've got STR superstatted)
-Tell people who would like to Super Stat in a way that complements THEIR build, not yours, that they just need to L2P and stop QQing because KB is balanced.

Noted :cool:

Force and Munitions player just need to realize that their KBs are currently not balanced and need to be reworked to allow the game to have variety and utilize the broad range of builds and powers. Saying "Slot STR" to survive is ridiculous. Do I force you to slot EGO so that I don't chain intangibly hold you and bend you over while you sit helpless to my onslaught? Oh wait, nope, none of the other stats really have that effect.

Not a flame, just arguing my opinion

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Everyone seems to be arguing kb and giving shotgun as the only example.
Maybe kb isn't the issue... maybe shotgun is?

Let's not nerf an entire game dynamic based on one power... let's look at the one power causing all the commotion instead.
I read it was nerfed at least once, so we know the devs are listening.

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Shotgun's the easiest spam KB, but there are a lot of KBs in the game. For example, if someone repeatedly spams charged Force Blasts at you they have a fair chance of getting high damage chain KB. And that's a level 1 power.

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Shotgun's the easiest spam KB, but there are a lot of KBs in the game. For example, if someone repeatedly spams charged Force Blasts at you they have a fair chance of getting high damage chain KB. And that's a level 1 power.

Indeed, you'll notice the numerous "I play force and KB is fine" responses. Sure its fine if you're the one knocking everyone else back.

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Shotgun is pretty bad right now even without strength. Also what about might and their guaranteed knockback. Both have insane knockback chances with no charge time.

I'm just saying, force is mildly annoying compared to these other powers. I have seen and been victim to being juggled by both might and shotgun, but in a fight with another force user it was pretty even.

Mob mentality right now is nerf the effect of a couple of overpowered abilities without thinking of the consequences of an entire powerset. I say adjust the offending abilities instead. Yes there maybe a cooldown on holds but a good hold will last 10-15 seconds. As a force user I would be friggen lucky to get more than 2 knockbacks in a row. Tapping force blast is like a 1 in 10 chance of knockback no matter how high my strength is. Charging each time is hardly spamming.

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Well, honestly I dont want to flame either, I just stated my opinion... right or wrong, its just an opinion lol...

However I do know for a FACT that in pvp with my force guy, there are people that YES, it blows them all over the screen... and there are others that it simply will KB only 1 out of every 10 hits.... now go figure how they are not getting KB'd.... I assume its STR....

I speak only for force powers as that is the entire reason I picked it.... I cant say for shotgun but if you advantage it up so it charges for a KB.... then seems to me, it should KB.... now spamming is another story... Make it have a 6 sec charge or somthing instead of 3.... thats a simple fix....

As for force, maybe lower the "chance" of KB, who knows....

I can understand the "CHAIN" KBs as being annoying, but I also get annoyed when a guy picks up a box and hits me for insane dmg while blocking and then another insane amount when i hit the ground from the KB... How do I counter that?

There are a million how do I counter things we can talk about all day long...

And for the record, its not a "defend kb " post as much as it is a "dont nerf this game to death" post...

I play several different toons and each have great advantages... tons of which I could say needs attention...

From a force standpoint, thats the whole point of taking it, the chance to street sweep your opponent...

Again, Im not trying to flame either, just looking with a different perspective...

Im just here to play lol....

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How about this, we put s 10 second immunity on every innate powerset ability. that means immunity on bleeds, chill, clinging flames, negative ions, fear, confuse, root, toxic, stun, etc... Could you imagine if there was an immunity on every innate function of every power. Giving immunity is NOT the answer maybe adjusting the chance would be better.

If they put immunity on knockback I wont rage quit, oh no! I will drop force and start using every FOTM, teleporting, regen using, ice bursting, over powered power in the game. I will find every insane power combination and spend all my time in the arena. See ya there.

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Seriously folks, you can't please everyone, and there will always be someone that can beat you silly. Sure, let them alter KB's, you'll only find something else putting you in your place soon enough. That's how these things work.

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Indeed, you'll notice the numerous "I play force and KB is fine" responses. Sure its fine if you're the one knocking everyone else back.

I play Super/Darkness. I have a single Knocktowards that I can use once every 6 seconds. The rest is fear and hold. That said:

Knockback is annoying, but I can get out of it with a bit of timing. I have gotten out of situations where I had 3 people spamming me with knockback powers, two of them were shot guns.

I don't think its really all that OP. It actually feels balanced right now, with what I have fought. Frustrating, yes, OP, don't think it is.

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Generally speaking I think that for the interest of a game pretty much all CCs except maybe snares must not be something you spam, but rather something you use at the right time, and that's incompatible with long immunity timers. As other games examples Warhammers really sucks for that, nothing worst than using a CC to try to get out of a bad situation and figure all your opponents are immune to it because some other guy was randomly using an AoE CC almost a minute ago, it even ends with people waiting to get CCed for nothing to get the immunity and then go attack because they know they won't be CCed, so far the most interesting diminishing return system I've seen is in WoW with CC duration being reduced if you apply several times the same kind of CC in a short time.

So personally I'd rather want to see knockbacks being a bit high cd abilities so a coordinated team could still use a bit of chain kb as a tactic, or one person could use it to help in either a defensive or offensive situation but one character spamming it is just wrong.

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Indeed, you'll notice the numerous "I play force and KB is fine" responses. Sure its fine if you're the one knocking everyone else back.

You'll note that the force powers don't offer any protection from KB, so it happens to them as much as it happens to you.

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How about this, we put s 10 second immunity on every innate powerset ability. that means immunity on bleeds, chill, clinging flames, negative ions, fear, confuse, root, toxic, stun, etc...

You're missing the point of what I said. Bleeds, Clinging Flames, Negative Ions, etc aren't CC. They don't prevent your character from acting. Thats the complaint at the moment. The devs have already built in the mechanic advantage for someone who's knockback immune. Read the ability, I'll paraphrase:
"[X Ability] does increased damage to a target that is knockback immune"

So you can't knock them to the ground, you get more damage! Seems like a win to me. I know my hold/root immune targets don't give me more damage.



Could you imagine if there was an immunity on every innate function of every power. Giving immunity is NOT the answer maybe adjusting the chance would be better.

Adjusting the chance is another option, but I think that would actually upset KB users more than an immunity. For example, you'll get a lot of people saying things like:

"Why even use a charged Force Blast, its chance to KB is terrible, you can't ever rely on it, its just a weaker damage power. Why use Force Blast when I could use Ice or Fire?"

Instead, as someone posted above, put the KB power on a CD so that its chance to KB is pretty reliable, but you can't spam the power. Which is good, but wouldn't give KBers the increased damage advantage. A 5 second immunity would let you KB every 5 seconds. Given that it usually takes 1-3 seconds to get back up and casting again depending on distance and angle, that means in the meantime you just do increased damage. Then 2 seconds after he's up, he can be knocked back again. It's a pretty lenient immunity timer, and gives you a damage bonus. To me I'd think you force guys would love that. Since one of the downsides to force (as many of you have stated) is that your damage isn't the greatest.

In my opinion, thats not nerfing powers into the ground
-its maintaining your advantage.
-Giving you a needed bonus when your secondary ability is on timer
-Keeping the game from becoming a chain-CC FTW... especially in competitive play
-Hell, I'd love if they made my holds chainable. JUST TAKE EGO vs Intangible!!! /sarcasm off

If they put immunity on knockback I wont rage quit, oh no! I will drop force and start using every FOTM, teleporting, regen using, ice bursting, over powered power in the game. I will find every insane power combination and spend all my time in the arena. See ya there.

Everyone is already using a FOTM teleporting, regen, force blast, shotgun, ice burst, force exploding build for PvP.

I created a character named PVP OP to prove my point. He's only died once in PvP, only level 10 atm though by 20 he'll be ungodly. But the thing is, as ridiculously powerful as he is, it bores the hell outta me to play something so imbalanced and overpowered. I personally enjoy the challenge and unique style of play to the "I'm just so ridiculous that I destroy other players"


My Point
The problem is, that the little kids who go around "ganking" gray players in other games. The same kids who hack their way through Counter Strike. The same kids who grief other players if they find an opportunity. Are the same kids who will keep flooding the PVP arenas with the most overpowered and absurd builds possible.

If you don't balance a game to some fundamental level, not only will cryptic lose players, but the game will lose a part of itself. Just like respecs have been way overpriced, if pvp becomes a standard rapefest for anyone not using the same exact necessary abilities, many players won't even bother with it. They'll cut pvp out of their Champions experience and as such, the game just won't be as rich to them.

Not to mention PVP will lose any sense of variety. I for one love encountering new and wildly successful builds of types that I haven't encountered before. With powers and combinations that make me say "Dang, I shoulda thought of that!." I'm not speaking about just KBs here. I'm talking about all the powers we ALL know are just over the top right now. I'm not all about nerfing, I hate when a game becomes a castrated "we were once superheroes" impotent shadow of its' former self. But that doesn't mean that if a power/combo essentially "nukes the earth for 10million" we shouldn't reconsider its effects and the numbers a little bit.


Anyway, patching for game day is done. I can't wait to play :D

In closing, no hard feelings toward anyone and I really am interested in resolving KB and the other issues fairly and with good results. I have a munitions guy myself and his shotgun is just too good to not use. But I'd be glad to have it toned down a bit or changed so that it doesn't smell of cheese every time it fires. Plus I've always like the Force style (from CoH and other games) So I look forward to successful compromises that will make force users shrug and say "Fair tradeoff IMO"

ENJOY THE GAME GUYS!!
I'll see you in the field ;)

[Archived Post]

You're missing the point of what I said. Bleeds, Clinging Flames, Negative Ions, etc aren't CC. They don't prevent your character from acting. Thats the complaint at the moment. The devs have already built in the mechanic advantage for someone who's knockback immune. Read the ability, I'll paraphrase:
"[X Ability] does increased damage to a target that is knockback immune"

So you can't knock them to the ground, you get more damage! Seems like a win to me. I know my hold/root immune targets don't give me more damage.





Adjusting the chance is another option, but I think that would actually upset KB users more than an immunity. For example, you'll get a lot of people saying things like:

"Why even use a charged Force Blast, its chance to KB is terrible, you can't ever rely on it, its just a weaker damage power. Why use Force Blast when I could use Ice or Fire?"

Instead, as someone posted above, put the KB power on a CD so that its chance to KB is pretty reliable, but you can't spam the power. Which is good, but wouldn't give KBers the increased damage advantage. A 5 second immunity would let you KB every 5 seconds. Given that it usually takes 1-3 seconds to get back up and casting again depending on distance and angle, that means in the meantime you just do increased damage. Then 2 seconds after he's up, he can be knocked back again. It's a pretty lenient immunity timer, and gives you a damage bonus. To me I'd think you force guys would love that. Since one of the downsides to force (as many of you have stated) is that your damage isn't the greatest.

In my opinion, thats not nerfing powers into the ground
-its maintaining your advantage.
-Giving you a needed bonus when your secondary ability is on timer
-Keeping the game from becoming a chain-CC FTW... especially in competitive play
-Hell, I'd love if they made my holds chainable. JUST TAKE EGO vs Intangible!!! /sarcasm off



Everyone is already using a FOTM teleporting, regen, force blast, shotgun, ice burst, force exploding build for PvP.

I created a character named PVP OP to prove my point. He's only died once in PvP, only level 10 atm though by 20 he'll be ungodly. But the thing is, as ridiculously powerful as he is, it bores the hell outta me to play something so imbalanced and overpowered. I personally enjoy the challenge and unique style of play to the "I'm just so ridiculous that I destroy other players"


My Point
The problem is, that the little kids who go around "ganking" gray players in other games. The same kids who hack their way through Counter Strike. The same kids who grief other players if they find an opportunity. Are the same kids who will keep flooding the PVP arenas with the most overpowered and absurd builds possible.

If you don't balance a game to some fundamental level, not only will cryptic lose players, but the game will lose a part of itself. Just like respecs have been way overpriced, if pvp becomes a standard rapefest for anyone not using the same exact necessary abilities, many players won't even bother with it. They'll cut pvp out of their Champions experience and as such, the game just won't be as rich to them.

Not to mention PVP will lose any sense of variety. I for one love encountering new and wildly successful builds of types that I haven't encountered before. With powers and combinations that make me say "Dang, I shoulda thought of that!." I'm not speaking about just KBs here. I'm talking about all the powers we ALL know are just over the top right now. I'm not all about nerfing, I hate when a game becomes a castrated "we were once superheroes" impotent shadow of its' former self. But that doesn't mean that if a power/combo essentially "nukes the earth for 10million" we shouldn't reconsider its effects and the numbers a little bit.


Anyway, patching for game day is done. I can't wait to play :D

In closing, no hard feelings toward anyone and I really am interested in resolving KB and the other issues fairly and with good results. I have a munitions guy myself and his shotgun is just too good to not use. But I'd be glad to have it toned down a bit or changed so that it doesn't smell of cheese every time it fires. Plus I've always like the Force style (from CoH and other games) So I look forward to successful compromises that will make force users shrug and say "Fair tradeoff IMO"

ENJOY THE GAME GUYS!!
I'll see you in the field ;)

Well as a closing statement as I may not even play this game after today's super gamewide nerf.

I didn't think the knockback immunity=more damage worked in pvp. If that were the case then I would gladly give a 5 sec immunity for increased damage.

[Archived Post]

I haven't tested this extensively, but if you notice in your tooltips for powers with guaranteed KB, it looks like they grant additional KB resistance for a certain duration. On my Force Eruption, it was +34% KB resistance for 12 seconds. Dunno if that's worth anything, but it looks like the devs are trying to do something, at least.

[Archived Post]

If the percent made the KB less effective then I'd buy that response, but since all it does is provide a toHit check on it, it doesn't cut it.

KB res % means that there will be a chance KB you based on your amt of res and the % chance to KB. So since this game is decided like every other game on what lands, a random number generator, even with the lower % you could still be chain KB'd if somebody hit their rolls.

Their needs to some kind of timer equal to the other mezzes or diminishing returns. Otherwise people will be chain KB'd and PvP will become a game of who can KB who into a spike.

Any kind of chain KB is wrong...wrong wrong wrong. Rare or not.

[Archived Post]

Any kind of chain KB is wrong...wrong wrong wrong. Rare or not.

Change "KB" to "CC" and I agree with you completely. KB is just another form of CC. In this case, it's 'special' since it lacks an immunity timer. Give it the immunity timer and everything will end up better. For that matter, go a little over and give KB a bonus +end to the target as all the other CC's end up doing. Then KB'ing becomes a tactical choice instead of constant spam... you can't always knock the other guy down, and if you know he's charging for his Big Bad Attack, you might just want to wait on using it.

[Archived Post]

Chain Repel is alright, though. I guess Repel isn't real CC.

[Archived Post]

While I didn't read all the post in this thread I will have to disagree with nerfing the knockback. As a pure dps character it is my only defense in PVP. Yes i will agree that it is annoying I have been knocked back, jerked toward players and even knocked to the top of the cage and somehow held there while annihilated. Its pvp thats what happens.
The knockback is part of the game and part of what my character does, when the melee character runs up and starts hitting on me I knock them back out of my space. Sorry if it is annoying but I can say the same thing about the Ice holds lets nerf them to because omg I am all frosty and can't move. I am not an expert by any means but pvp is pvp and there is going to be some players that can just beat you every time, be it they have better stats, in game talents, or well just the skill to know what to do at the right time. That being said my shot gun does not work on every player I have blasted away at numerous players and it not even phase them, so if my shot gun and grenades are annoying then make a toon that can resist such. And I will keep dealing with the the Ice cage that I find myself in quite often.

[Archived Post]

The ONLY way I can get out of a knockback chain is teleport. Sure, I could spec stuff that makes my character totally useless and rename him KB ImmuneMan and go around laughing at people trying to knock me back and simply killing me instead (but while I'm standing!!!).

This game isn't rock scissors paper, please don't make it such where you've got a rock the size of Mount Everest and you can only beat it by totally changing your entire character focus.

I think we're getting really close on balance. But every major state change should have an immunity timer. Confuse, hold, root, knockback. If it involves you helplessly watching your character and glancing over at the clock on the wall or maybe checking out America's Next Top Dishwasher, then it needs to have a timer.

[Archived Post]

I'm not for nerfing anything. I like to find unique solutions to get around the problem. However, I'm of the mindset that KB should have an immunity timer just like the other forms of CC. That isn't a nerf... that is an even playing field. I use KB all of the time, so I'm not coming from the outside whining about KB used on me. I just think that in all fairness if all CC powers give immunity timers, then KB should also.

I use a shotty in my munitions build (duh). Many people complain about shotty spam ( I personally get KB chained by force much more often, I think people just hear the distinct sound of the shotgun and have a kneejerk reaction to it). I agree with them when I'm up against someone that only uses that attack over and over and over (I use all of my powers...umm... thats why I got them). But the thing about the shotgun.. it doesn't KB all of the time. If I am trying to knock somone down to prevent them from escaping to heal, I may have to pop of shotty a half dozen times to get a knockdown. I think that is the way it should be on the click portion. Now if they added in an immunity timer, that would make it fair with the same thing as hold spammers. You get to break out and they can't redo for awhile. Spamming shotgun or force just for the KB would be diminshed then and people would have to adapt to using their other powers and tactics.

Not defending or demonizing KB. It is a sound tactic, and all is fair in love and war :) But, in closing, I think there should be an immunity just like other CC.

It is funny, in PvP last night, I ran into sooo many people that had combined all of the myriad powers that are listed as OP in these forums. That was their build, just whatever people posted was OP. They still get taken down, just takes a little more concetrated effort. I thought it was neat, because I make a theme character and do fine in PvP and they are going to be in tears when the nerf-bat swings their way. :P



Howdy, Pardner... bbzzzzrt..

Doc Dregware@nemissary Snake Gulch escapee.

[Archived Post]

How about building up the STAT that helps your hero mitagate knockback? Would this not be a better answer than "nerfing" yet again?

[Archived Post]

Everyone keeps bringing up the "stack str" thing, but that hardly helps you! I've been bounced to hell by multiple shotguns, though I started off blocking, Str is my superstat and only 3 or so points away from my highest other stat (dex) when I last dueled. STR needs more reliable resistance, and diminishing returns might be nice as well. Don't take down the power of knockback, make it not spammable. This is just like uppercut juggles.

[Archived Post]

How about building up the STAT that helps your hero mitagate knockback? Would this not be a better answer than "nerfing" yet again?

Seriously.
You don't need to stack a stat. In fact, the more you stack it, the less of an affect you get from it.

Str and int are my superstats, and I stack int for damage, and the energy reduction on skills.
But I still need to stack cons to some level to buff my invul, and to give me more hp in pvp, I still need to stack end a good deal to get more energy on builders, and have a large enough pool to actually use abilities.
My dps is far lower then someone stacking dex and ego. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

don't think you can stack 2 stats and only 2 stats and be effective in all situations.

If you are getting kb nonstop, let me guess. you have 10 str.

As someone that uses a kb ability with str as a super stat. I assure you, the chances of resisting it constantly are reduced the more str I get. At 15 str or so at level 10, my kbs were resisted probably 30% of the time. Now, pushing 100, they are resisted probably 5% vs targets that don't match my str.

[Archived Post]

I don't think putting an immunity on it just like holds is a nerf. It is a fix. This is my opinion.

Factually though: KB/knockdowns are hold equivalent. You can't do anything while bouncing off of the floor. You can't do anything while held (a few def powers let you click 'em when held).... same effect different special effects. Needs same immunity to be equal use and defense equivalent.

I am a Str super-stat character with KBs. Not trying to nerf myself, I assure you. But the old MMO rule of "If everyone is using it, there must be something wrong with it" applies here. I know "everyone" isn't using it but it is so wide spread it may as well be.

I can sepculate on another thing. If everyone keeps taking KBs and thinks that it doesn't need an immunity, even more players will take 'em, then more will nerdrage about it and then the over-nerf bat will drop on it and then people will nerdrage about the super-nerf and the cycle will just go on and on ...

Ah well! I'm done stating my opinions about it needing an immunity timer like holds.

I'll sit back and watch it happen. :)

See you in the game and remember: Have fun! It is just a game :)

[Archived Post]

What if the mechanic was 2 KBs from any player character within x seconds grants you n seconds of KB immunity?

More or less equals the length of a hold. You can't be chain KB'd. You have a chance to resist the second KB (equivalent to breaking a hold). No nerfs needed to powers directly, can spam KBs in pve all day long...

[Archived Post]

What if the mechanic was 2 KBs from any player character within x seconds grants you n seconds of KB immunity?

More or less equals the length of a hold. You can't be chain KB'd. You have a chance to resist the second KB (equivalent to breaking a hold). No nerfs needed to powers directly, can spam KBs in pve all day long...

Not a horrible idea. Dunno if that can easily be coded (I'm not that smart..not even close), but this sounds doable.

[Archived Post]

Seriously.
You don't need to stack a stat. In fact, the more you stack it, the less of an affect you get from it.

Str and int are my superstats, and I stack int for damage, and the energy reduction on skills.
But I still need to stack cons to some level to buff my invul, and to give me more hp in pvp, I still need to stack end a good deal to get more energy on builders, and have a large enough pool to actually use abilities.
My dps is far lower then someone stacking dex and ego. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

don't think you can stack 2 stats and only 2 stats and be effective in all situations.

If you are getting kb nonstop, let me guess. you have 10 str.

As someone that uses a kb ability with str as a super stat. I assure you, the chances of resisting it constantly are reduced the more str I get. At 15 str or so at level 10, my kbs were resisted probably 30% of the time. Now, pushing 100, they are resisted probably 5% vs targets that don't match my str.


I don't stack two stats only. What sort of idiot would do that? Depending on my build I pick my 2 superstats to get the best viability, then I will stack my other stats to support my concept. IE: my TK hero is DEX/EGO as my mains with CON/INT/END/REC as my secondaries. I was trying to make the point that if you are suffering from alot of KB and wish to see it stop or at least become less, then put some points towards the stats (EGO I think) that buff your KB defense. My TK hero hardly ever suffers from KB while fighting NPC's.
If SHOTGUN is still causing a lot of grief from its KB ability, then;
a) it needs to be toned down some.
b) the STATS that effect KB resistance need to be buffed some

Putting a KB immunity in the game is not the answer IMO.

I always have my cake and eat it too. It is my cake. I baked it afterall:)
what I can't do is have your cake and eat it too, unless we live in a socialist society - in which case we all have somebody elses cake spread evenly among us. Unless we then have more cake then others in which case cake will be redistributed evenly among those who don't have cake - unless that would mean they now have more cake than us............ screw it I'm having a bearclaw.

[Archived Post]

I was agreeing with you, roach.

Anyway, went up vs 3 shotgun spamming people in high tech today.
I have no idea what their str was, but mine is about 91 atm. I resisted the shotgun blasts at least 50% of the time, if not more. Probably more.

Str does work. Now, I wiill freely admit these clowns did nothing but fire shotgun over and over and over and over again, the ENTIRE fight. and that was certainly getting on my nerves. There probably should be a cooldown on the ability, or perhaps less damage, or much higher energy costs.

The balancing factor for concussor beam with PA is very high energy costs.

[Archived Post]

I was agreeing with you, roach.

Anyway, went up vs 3 shotgun spamming people in high tech today.
I have no idea what their str was, but mine is about 91 atm. I resisted the shotgun blasts at least 50% of the time, if not more. Probably more.

Str does work. Now, I wiill freely admit these clowns did nothing but fire shotgun over and over and over and over again, the ENTIRE fight. and that was certainly getting on my nerves. There probably should be a cooldown on the ability, or perhaps less damage, or much higher energy costs.

The balancing factor for concussor beam with PA is very high energy costs.

Sorry , I got caught up in the touchiness going around this forum I guess. My apoligies.:D


On this note, I think a cooldown would be great or something that keeps them from spamming. Or maybe just make the KB effect lessen the farther away the target is from the shooter. Real shotguns shot spreads wide with less effect as the range increases, so why not in game as well. If the hero using shotgun wants to keep his knockdown strong - have them buy an advantage "SLUG"= same high KB but only single target.

[Archived Post]

Invest in Strength it's the KB resist stat :P

[Archived Post]

Invest in Strength it's the KB resist stat :P

Again... and I can't stress this enough:

Are you finding yourself forced to stack EGO to resist intangible hold spam? Do you find yourself suffering from chain holds to such a degree that you see numerous threads talking about "nerf chain holds"?

OR

Do you find that, typically, so many base abilities hold you for maybe a couple seconds and then you're gleefully free from holds for a good 15+ seconds. Do you find that you rarely even notice a hold? Excepting maybe that one really good maintained hold by one guy, while his team pummels you to death.

Once again my point is this, I think KBs should have a KB strength similar to holds:
-I.E. for holds if you read the advanced description, it'll read: .75 hold for 3 seconds, then inflicts hold immunity 15seconds
-So why not have the advanced description be: .75 knockback, then inflicts knockback immunity 5seconds..... but have the listed knockback strength increase with YOUR strength stat. That way having higher strength will insure that when you need it to, your knockback WILL hit them and more likely than not, it WILL knock them back.

With this system, knockback won't be the crutch of poor players as their 'win button'. It will be a strategic tool to be used with other tools in their arsenal. "Oh no! He's charging up his 'crazy-XYZ' attack!" Boom, knockback, aha!
Instead of: "shotgun-shotgun-shotgun-shotgunshotgunshotgunshotgun WIN" or "Forceblast-Forceblast-ForceblastForceblastForceblastForceblast WIN"

i love Knockbacks and Knockups and Knockdowns and Knocktowards. They are really fun game mechanics and have their place in both PvE and PvP. All I'm saying is that NO CC ABILITY should be spammable. Whether you implement diminishing returns, immunity (like every other CC except snares, which need to be looked at), or some other method of reasonably balancing them.

So instead of having essentially two viewpoints:

KBer - "Its just fine, I use it all the time, stack STR nub"
Victim - "Can we please find a happy medium"

...we can compromise in a way that will make KB's more useful tactically without being a constantly irritating spam that forces all players to stack excessive STR which (aside from pvp) fits neither their character's concept, nor truly benefits them much in most other aspects of the game.

And once again, telling people to stack a specific stat to balance KB is flawed logic. As it is really the only stat in the game that players are currently being forced to stack for pvp. Sure Con is great too, but that just increases your lifespan. It's not required to counteract a currently unregulated ability in pvp.

In closing: Take away immunity timers on Holds and Roots for a week and reduce their duration to around 2-4 seconds in pvp. When the KBers find themselves being held every couple seconds for a few seconds, chain held to death, etc. You will see what we mean and why they put an immunity timer on CC. Given Knockback's shorter 'duration' on affected enemies, it should have a shorter immunity timer. However, Knockback should not be the only freely spammable CC.

Also, these suggestions are largely geared towards PvP, so I don't mean to take away Force's PvE effectiveness or uniqueness against mobs. I think its a blast (pun intended) to knock mobs around like ping pong balls while enjoying PvE. Nothing like knocking a henchman off a building to his death. I'd just hate to see it ruin what is shaping up to be an extremely well balanced PvP portion of an awesome game.

Anyway, still having a blast with the game. Just adding my thoughts to the issue. :)