Possible content hole at level 17

[Archived Post]

This post is intended as feedback to the dev staff regarding the reshuffling of the leveling rate.

As at this post i'm at level 17. Compared to beta, i believe (intellectually) that it was slightly slower (bearing in mind that I was playing around with my spec this time and I think my spec took a little longer to mature than previously ergo slower is not unexpected anyway) but not so much that I noticed or got frustrated. So far so good.

The main thing i'm noticing is that i've hit 17 and i've basically had no level 17 quests that aren't essentially zone feeders (e.g. "here talk to this person who has level 18+ quests for you") that give little xp. I'm not saying this is going to lead to problems later (I'll have to wait until later to say), however one of AntiProton's (i believe) posts was talking about places where there seems to be a slight lack of quests.

So i'm just pointing a finger at 17 and saying, maybe there's one there.

For reference my travel path was

Tutorial (to 6)
Canada Crisis (to 9ish?)
Desert Crisis (to the middle of 10) (NOTE: i used the "reset the dungeon to go back to canada crisis" trick. P.S. please don't change this :) I like having both desert and canada perks :) )
Desert (to 14) (NOTE: there are signposts that point to MC at 13... these should probably be pushed to 14 as going to MC at 13 would be inadvisable to inexperienced players... the MC quests start at 14. Not saying the xp should change, just the visible quest level)
MC Westside (to 17)

At this point i've run out of west side quests and am running through the level 18/19 quests that lead to the Gadroon and PSI inc in MC.

Hope that is useful. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions you'd like answered.

Thanks for your time.

<edit>
The Antiproton quote i am looking for is here (http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=809567&postcount=25)

The explicit logic was the time to level got way out of sync at the higher levels. We've analyzed the rate at which players were leveling, looked at all our levels, and adjusted the rate to be closer to where we want it, but not create any new holes in mission availability. One of the good effects of this is it enabled us to find some areas where we already had mission problems and come up with a plan for adjusting our content to match it better, we're releveling some missions from bands where there were too many (we had a number where one level was short but the next level or previous had 2x the amount it needed due to adjustments in mission and zone progression throughout beta), this will help immensely since you really want to be doing level appropriate missions, not missions at the level above you. We did identify a band that we will be adding additional missions to cover, and we've adjusted some rates on other XP generating things as well.

We're definitely planning to adjust further to hit our goal: Players take roughly the time we want to level up, that it isn't grindy, and you don't have to do EVERY single mission available in a level range to level up. Right now there are spots where folks have no choice but to do missions above or below their level to level up, we're fixing that as part of this effort as well.

pertinent sections bolded by me.

[Archived Post]

This post is intended as feedback to the dev staff regarding the reshuffling of the leveling rate.

As at this post i'm at level 17. Compared to beta, i believe (intellectually) that it was slightly slower (bearing in mind that I was playing around with my spec this time and I think my spec took a little longer to mature than previously ergo slower is not unexpected anyway) but not so much that I noticed or got frustrated. So far so good.

The main thing i'm noticing is that i've hit 17 and i've basically had no level 17 quests that aren't essentially zone feeders (e.g. "here talk to this person who has level 18+ quests for you") that give little xp. I'm not saying this is going to lead to problems later (I'll have to wait until later to say), however one of AntiProton's (i believe) posts was talking about places where there seems to be a slight lack of quests.

So i'm just pointing a finger at 17 and saying, maybe there's one there.

For reference my travel path was

Tutorial (to 6)
Canada Crisis (to 9ish?)
Desert Crisis (to the middle of 10) (NOTE: i used the "reset the dungeon to go back to canada crisis" trick. P.S. please don't change this :) I like having both desert and canada perks :) )
Desert (to 14) (NOTE: there are signposts that point to MC at 13... these should probably be pushed to 14 as going to MC at 13 would be inadvisable to inexperienced players... the MC quests start at 14. Not saying the xp should change, just the visible quest level)
MC Westside (to 17)

At this point i've run out of west side quests and am running through the level 18/19 quests that lead to the Gadroon and PSI inc in MC.

Hope that is useful. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions you'd like answered.

Thanks for your time.

Go to Snake Gultch. There are a lot of quests around your level. Well, one or two above you, but that's how I got to twenty in OB.

[Archived Post]

Go to Snake Gultch. There are a lot of quests around your level. Well, one or two above you, but that's how I got to twenty in OB.

Yeah i've basically leveled using the gadroon/psi inc chains. Once i've finished those two arcs i'm planning a move to desert.

Sorry let me be a bit more specific in the feedback.

I've got westside quests (14-16 one or two 17s like fight club)

I've got Central City quests (18-20ish?)
i've got Snake Gulch quests (18-??)

So i could do the central city quests a level early. or i could go to snake gulch and do those quests a level early. However i don't have many quests that show as level 17.

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This is pretty much where I am atm, except I have no West Side quests left at all, and I'm only a bub or two into 17.

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Do remember folks that both Canada and Desert have quests in those range. Jumping around the various zones can net you stuff to do. Heck, even if you do the lowbie quests in those zones, it could net you one maybe two levels.

Means extra stuff for your crafting to deconstruct as well, plus more perks.

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I've got to 22 so far with no gaps, I was 20 before I had to go to snake gulch. Don't pay too much attention to the quest levels, if you do all the quests you're offered in MC and all the follow ons you should have no problems getting to 19 before needing to leave.
If you've run out of quests by 17 then you've missed something/someone.

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I've got to 22 so far with no gaps, I was 20 before I had to go to snake gulch. Don't pay too much attention to the quest levels, if you do all the quests you're offered in MC and all the follow ons you should have no problems getting to 19 before needing to leave.
If you've run out of quests by 17 then you've missed something/someone.

Cryptic created there quests and content based on a old EXP model. I guesstimate that they lowered the Beta EXP rate by 20 - 25% and now your level versus Quest level will deviate.

The closer you get to level 40 the larger that gap will be, and the more this game will become boring fast.

not to mention that you will always be under geared because you cant use the rewards you earn at that moment.

[Archived Post]

Cryptic created there quests and content based on a old EXP model. I guesstimate that they lowered the Beta EXP rate by 20 - 25% and now your level versus Quest level will deviate.

The closer you get to level 40 the larger that gap will be, and the more this game will become boring fast.

not to mention that you will always be under geared because you cant use the rewards you earn at that moment.

Is this true? I thought they put it back closer to what it was before. They promised they would pace the content along with the XP.

so far its feeling like before the xp nerf but what do I know havent had a lot of time to play. I suppose regardless by the time I hit 30s it will be many months :eek:

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I remember reading that they used the newbie area to benchmark the exp rate.

I don't think they understood that it would great a gap that would increase over time.

the last few days of beta I have a few characters to test out the exp gap before I just went and took the level 40 boost, and it seems fairly even across the board with most classes. You would hit some quest wall around level 17.

People were distracted with the robot war and it slipped under the radar.

The big issues is... If your at the wall, changing the EXP rate for you will probably be too late, it still will not open more quests.

They need more quests to fill in the gap now.. or go back to the old EXP model.

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I did not experience any gap at all; in fact I was overleveling some of my West Side quests in MC. Maybe you guys are missing some quests or contacts in the area?

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With many people well past 17 now and clearly most of them did not grind on mobs, I am not sure I understand the gap problem.

I am about to get there myself so I will see.. but I have seen a lot of people who are well past this 17-20ish range, it is doubtful that these people just grinded on mobs.

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With many people well past 17 now and clearly most of them did not grind on mobs, I am not sure I understand the gap problem.

I am about to get there myself so I will see.. but I have seen a lot of people who are well past this 17-20ish range, it is doubtful that these people just grinded on mobs.

I only see the gap "problem" as a problem because the devs have stated they don't want it. They want people to be able to level without having to do quests outside their level (see Antiproton quote).

Am I going to hit 40? heck yeah.
Was it painful doing quests at 17? Not at all.
Is it outside of their stated expectations? Yes it is.

Thats all :) no big conspiracy. Not a whine post. Just "level 17 doesn't quite fit your expectations".

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I did not experience any gap at all; in fact I was overleveling some of my West Side quests in MC. Maybe you guys are missing some quests or contacts in the area?

If you've run out of quests by 17 then you've missed something/someone.

This is a distinct possibility.
If its the case then the solution(in my head) would be better signposting. Either through quests or the crime computer. I've followed all but one signpost quest (as i mention below, the Canada signpost seemed outleveled when i got to it).

Question: what level did you get to westside? I was there at 14 but if i did all the quests i'd outleveled in Canada I probably could have gotten to 15 and this would have an effect.

In this respect the signposting is perhaps a bit confused. The irradiates quest chain in Desert ends with a Canada signpost, but that signpost is one level below the MC signposts and thus 2 levels below me when I was ready to move on. I know that my current crime computer has no contacts for me in Canada.

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well im lvl 17 in MC and i have a ton of quest to do still. i left Tutorial at 6 did open quest twice (very good xp)
i left desert at 12 or 13 i did the open quest there 3 or 4 times very very good xp. then i hit Canada to about 14 and some change(well alot of change) then pvped 3 times to 15. now im in MC at 17 with so many quest it isnt even funny quest log is full and just go a new bunch of quest that are about lvl 18ish. try doing the Open Mission a few time witch are very fun IMO and should be done more to alleviate the mission grind and give you the chance to TEAM. i know omg teaming ima noob or must be cuz i like to do it but now im ranting about team grrr teams.

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No idea what level I was when I did west side (i just grabbed all the MC quests and did then in whatever order was nearest) I started MC at 15, originally I went in when I was 13 but I didn't have enough mysticism so I went to the desert to get some rewards to 'research'. I did dry gulch and a bit of the radioactive pools and came out at 15. My BF didn't do any of the other wilderness and he got to 25 so far without any problems, it was a little tougher for him because he got to the psi stuff at level 18 or so whereas I was 20 but its definitely possible to get through 17 without a gap.

If you think you might have missed a contact check the crime computer, it will tell you all the contacts that have missions for you.

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Around 17 you want to check with Antoine, Kinetik, and Mayte in MC in the CIty Center or Snake Gulch/VIPER Project Stein base in the Desert. Plenty of quests there to do. Snake Gulch alone will get you a healthy chunk of the way into 20, then there's stuff to do in Canada until you get high enough to go back to MC and deal with DEMON or Stronghold Prison in the Desert around 25.

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I'm 17 now and there is definitively a content gap. All of the contacts I have available (such as Kinetik, Mayte, or Snake Gulch at desert) will provide only missions from 18 to 20. I'm doing those missions now, but it is an imperfect solution at best: not only there will be less missions available for later levels, widening the content gap, also I'm constantly getting rewards I can't use.

I'm used now to junk all rewards for crafting purposes, but I already reached 200 at crafting and it is now useless. I guess I could expend time doing open missions (the ones that are not broken) but other than that, it looks like it is grinding time.

Perhaps there is some contact I missed, but the crime computer would only show level 18 to 20 mission contacts.

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I remember reading that they used the newbie area to benchmark the exp rate.

I don't think they understood that it would great a gap that would increase over time.

the last few days of beta I have a few characters to test out the exp gap before I just went and took the level 40 boost, and it seems fairly even across the board with most classes. You would hit some quest wall around level 17.

People were distracted with the robot war and it slipped under the radar.

The big issues is... If your at the wall, changing the EXP rate for you will probably be too late, it still will not open more quests.

They need more quests to fill in the gap now.. or go back to the old EXP model.


The EXP system right now is closer to what it was before the xp nerf in OB- if you hadn't noticed. It IS changd slightly, but they found some middle ground. Pre-nerf I was leaving the tutorial around lvl 7. Now? Level 6. Other than that, progression has been smooth.

I haven't hit any content gap so far. If people only want to do quests that are equal to their level, then sorry for them. I purposely take quests one, two, and three levels over me and do fine.

However, if you have such an issue with the game becoming boring due to lack of content or what have you, what I would recommend is drafting a letter for the devs. Something professional, perhaps (as opposed to every other OMG thiz sux and I quit! post that was here in OB) and send it off. Explain your point, offer suggestions.

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Currently I'm level 13 entering MC and only have level 14 quests. I was pretty thorough about picking up everything in Canada, but of course there's the whole of the desert I missed. Nevertheless this is definitely sub-optimal, I should definitely have more freedom than which zone to pick.

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Before the OB XP nerf i did 1-5 tutorial, 6-14 canada, 14-19 MC (westside and after that the upper side with city hall and everything), 19-24 snake gulch, 25-30 split between going back and forth from canada and MC, monsterisland crisis at 30 (but the rest wasn't in yet), MC and Dr.destroyer's robot factory till 32....

Then i bought lifetime and stopped leveling so damned fast :p But otherwise i would've done the yeti quests in canada at 32 till 35, lemuria after that (if it gets fixed) and that should propel ya pretty close to around 40. Use the crime computer for the rest.

I actually ran around the desert at level 32, trying to find grond with a buddy. I came across loads of area's of lvl 10's (when i was in canada) and level 21-24's (when i *was* leveling in the desert) that i hadn't come across in quests.

I haven't seen any content gaps so far. I heard the adjusted XP is 1 more top level (40 is now what 41 was before the nerf), so i don't imagine there are any now either.

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It does appear that the rebalancing of xp has left a bit of a gap here. I went tutorial, canada crisis, desert to 14, MC to 17.2 and now I'm back in Canada doing the level 9 - 14 content Just running Justicar's missions has gotten me to 18 so while there is a bit of a gap it isn't horrible.

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at 13 i went to MC and that took me to 19
The desert rounded it out to 20 in no time flat - now I can bounce between the desert & Canada

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I'm level 25 now, and there's still a TON of content for me to do in both Canada and the Desert.

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I'm at 17 and have tons of quests to do still. I'm still running around in Westside! I still haven't done Foxbat's quest line! I haven't done a thing around mid town (city hall, etc). I did go do a few quests in Canada (started out in the Desert) and got about a level out of that (14ish). I haven't PvP'ed once. Aside from the tutorial, the only open world quest I've done was Hangman in the desert.

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I am just shy of 17 and was having this problem. I did all of the quest lines in the desert and canada as well as MC until it stopped giving me more. I was doing quests right up until the 18-19 range and completed those too.

That was helpful mentioning snake gulch. I got a few quests done there.

I just found a few quests that just unlocked, so hopefully I will be fine. I know there's plenty to do, I just couldn't find any quest givers!

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I am now level 20 and have zero quests of my level available, in all three zones. For the latests three levels, I've been doing quests up to +3 because there was nothing to do otherwise.

Those who made it past those levels, did you do a lot of open quests or PvP? Perhaps my problem is that I didn't do the early level Canada, concentrating instead on the desert. Level progression looked fine without doing them and the game didn't direct me to them anyway.

By the way, the 'crime computer' feature is broken. It didn't direct me to quests of my level, even when some were clearly available. Instead it directed me to +3 level quests that would get me killed.

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I am now level 20 and have zero quests of my level available, in all three zones. For the latests three levels, I've been doing quests up to +3 because there was nothing to do otherwise.

Those who made it past those levels, did you do a lot of open quests or PvP? Perhaps my problem is that I didn't do the early level Canada, concentrating instead on the desert. Level progression looked fine without doing them and the game didn't direct me to them anyway.

By the way, the 'crime computer' feature is broken. It didn't direct me to quests of my level, even when some were clearly available. Instead it directed me to +3 level quests that would get me killed.

Odd I'm at 19.2 and still have 3 different quest givers in MC to do, the entire snake gulch mission chain, and then I can move on to the hunter patriots in canada for a bit.

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It does appear that the rebalancing of xp has left a bit of a gap here. I went tutorial, canada crisis, desert to 14, MC to 17.2 and now I'm back in Canada doing the level 9 - 14 content Just running Justicar's missions has gotten me to 18 so while there is a bit of a gap it isn't horrible.

Don't think so. I hit MC with lvl 14 after I did Canada crisis and desert. MC has a dozen+ quest that start from items, one point I hate because our UI, special the inventory is bad. So maybe you miss a few right there.
Then we have some quest chains out there. And the next chance could be that you miss quest in the north/ne part of the city

Honestly it's easy to hit even lvl 20/21 if you add in PQ, bank robbery and some other stuff like doing a few pvp rounds...................

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Odd I'm at 19.2 and still have 3 different quest givers in MC to do, the entire snake gulch mission chain, and then I can move on to the hunter patriots in canada for a bit.

I finished all quest givers in MC around level 18, and the entire snake gulch missions made me from about 18.5 to 20.

Definitively the game needs a better way to direct players to missions. Having a few more wouldn't hurt, right now you need to hunt for every last quest and I would like to see something different when I try an alt.

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I finished all quest givers in MC around level 18, and the entire snake gulch missions made me from about 18.5 to 20.

Definitively the game needs a better way to direct players to missions. Having a few more wouldn't hurt, right now you need to hunt for every last quest and I would like to see something different when I try an alt.

Have you checked the mission computer to see if you are missing any quest givers? Ie open the mission window the J key. In the lower left corner click the computer button to bring it up and scan for emergencies.

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However, if you have such an issue with the game becoming boring due to lack of content or what have you, what I would recommend is drafting a letter for the devs. Something professional, perhaps (as opposed to every other OMG thiz sux and I quit! post that was here in OB) and send it off. Explain your point, offer suggestions.

That was basically the intent of this thread. I didn't offer any suggestions because I don't believe i have a large enough view on the system to say that what i'm seeing is actually true.

It's possible there was a huge motherload of level 17 quests that I never found and never appeared on the crime computer at 17. This would suggest better signposting.

If 17 is actually light then the solution is to craft some extra level 17 side quests and add them to someone. There's one or two contacts that you talk to once and only have one quest, these could be extended. Alternatively adding them to socrates works as well.

Heck it's even possible that this is all in my mind and the reason I don't have any level 17 quests is because I did them without realising. I don't THINK that's the case and If I did then it'd suggest a possible problem with 16 since I would have done them then. Note that I hit Westside at the most appropriate level according to the quests (14) and leveled there exclusively. Afterwards I was signposted to an area I could do but started at 1 level higher than me.

Yes I could have switched to a different area in the middle of Westside. However i'd like to note that travel time is down time. It is far better to craft content so you stay in one node and then move on, than to alternate between 2 nodes on a regularish basis. As well, if that is what is intended, it would be better to signpost it (i.e. give me a quest to go to node 2 from node 1).

I'm a relatively competent MMO player so I'm not having any problems working around this. The only reason i've only got to 20 is because life decided to give me a ton of things to do over this weekend. It's just not optimal and Antiproton did mention they were taking the opportunity to look for these things.

To all those who pointed to Antoine, Mayte, Kinetik and Snake Gulch, I'd point out that, definitely for the first 3 and from memory Snake Gulch as well, those are all 18+ quest givers. Ergo they don't fill a content hole at 17, they merely work around it.

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Well for level 17 - 18.X I went to Canada and did the level 9 - 13 missions. they seemed to fill in that gap nicely. I just went up to justicar and took the two level 9 missione he always is trying to offer and away I went.

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What is this "reset the dungeon to go back to canada crisis" trick that you speak of?

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What is this "reset the dungeon to go back to canada crisis" trick that you speak of?

Basically you do canada crisis but instead of zoning back to canada after defeating rakshasa you log off for 30 minutes or so to let the instance reset. The way the game deals with that is by booting you back to the entrance which means you're still in Canada Crisis but you've already done everything necessary to get Raiders of the Storm except talk to Justicar, which you can do after completing Desert.

From a balance perspective it's almost irrelevant. You get about a level out of it at most and some gear thats mostly identical to what you get in the other crisis. The only reason to do it is to get the perks from both crises.

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I did not experience any gap at all; in fact I was overleveling some of my West Side quests in MC. Maybe you guys are missing some quests or contacts in the area?

This has been my experience over the last three days. It appears they may have adjusted the xp back towards the beginning of OB range (not sure if they put it all the way back).

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I was in the same boat, I hit lvl 18 in MC and was like stumped. Everything was 20+. Luckily I ran into someone that sent me to the desert and voila, everything in my range to get me over the xp hump.

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Well for level 17 - 18.X I went to Canada and did the level 9 - 13 missions. they seemed to fill in that gap nicely. I just went up to justicar and took the two level 9 missione he always is trying to offer and away I went.

That's not even a band-aid solution, that's a sticky tape solution. Game needs more content or faster xp pretty drastically.

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That's not even a band-aid solution, that's a sticky tape solution. Game needs more content or faster xp pretty drastically.

It is launch. More content will show up over time just as it does in every other game. I'm confident that we will see more content over the next few issues.

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That's not even a band-aid solution, that's a sticky tape solution. Game needs more content or faster xp pretty drastically.

Now thats not really fair. If you do all the quests you can get to 40 (presumably... Still looking good for it so far). The progression is neither frustrating nor mind numbing like other AAA mmos. There's not much more you should really expect from a just launched MMO.

My point is not and has never been that progression sucks or needs drastic help/changes. My point is that with some tweaks it might be pushed slightly closer to the original design vision.

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It's not that the design needs drastic changes, just that those changes need doing as a matter of urgency. Add a couple of level 15 arcs, a bit more at level 30, throw in a level 20 instance, double the xp for civilian missions, triple it for PVP and you have a very solid base for a launch or near launch MMO. I don't think those are major changes, Issue 1 of CoH had all that plus almost an extra CO sized zone. The game is pretty structurally sound, but if you require people to do level 9 content at level 19 then they're going to leave so it's important something is done as quickly as possible.

My only fear is that with people able to reach level 40 so quickly the temptation is going to be to end-load the content even more. If that's the case then for now we need at least a band aid solution.

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Basically you do canada crisis but instead of zoning back to canada after defeating rakshasa you log off for 30 minutes or so to let the instance reset. The way the game deals with that is by booting you back to the entrance which means you're still in Canada Crisis but you've already done everything necessary to get Raiders of the Storm except talk to Justicar, which you can do after completing Desert.

From a balance perspective it's almost irrelevant. You get about a level out of it at most and some gear thats mostly identical to what you get in the other crisis. The only reason to do it is to get the perks from both crises.

Didnt some dev post something about being able to get back to the crisis after you finish the dungeon ?

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Didnt some dev post something about being able to get back to the crisis after you finish the dungeon ?

Only applies to MI and Lemuria at this point, not the other two. Once you're out, you're out.
And for Canada to only way to get back into the regular Crisis, is by logging off for 20 minutes. Going through the portal always take you to non-Crisis Canada.

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I hit the wall at 17 also, did all Mill city, canada and desert quests that I could, everything else in my quest log was lvl 20