SJ Feedback - Respecs/Character Generation

[Archived Post]

Respec/Character Generation Issues/Feedback 8/22/09

Reposting due to Beta ending put the old post into the "Archives" so was not appearing anymore.

There have been multiple points listed I am sure on this subject. I will do my best to fully illustrate what the current problems are, momentary workarounds, possible fixes, etc.

Short List of Problems


Powers are buffed/nerfed.
New players choose terrible builds while learnng the game.
Game content develops, changing what is actually fun.
Players realize they prefer PvE or PvP later on, but they built their toon for the wrong content.
Leveling... Players realize they prefer another role (tank, dps, support) than they are currently built for.
Players didn't spend hours testing out each new availble power at level up (that gets seriously tedious) and don't realize until later that they missed out on powers they really wanted.



1) Powers are buffed/nerfed.

In any game, things get buffed and nerfed. It is the nature of MMO's. It will happen. It's going to happen. And there is nothing anyone can do about that fact. Currently however a player can level to 40 and then be forever stuck with the changes enforced by CO designers. This in essence can and will change a toon so much as to make someone not want to even play anymore, forcing them to feel like they must reroll a new toon or stop playing to have fun.

Diablo (while not an MMO) was an excellent example where players who spent a few talent points in the wrong thing would delete the character and reroll just to make the builds they wanted.


2) New players choose terrible builds while learnng the game.

As with any new game, players will make a ton of mistakes when picking new "toys". Maybe they're grouping with friends and had to level up quickly to keep up. Maybe they saw a new "toy" that looked aweseome (and they thought performed awesome). Or perhaps they chose all the wrong talents and super stats for their power set.

Players will not always understand the game and they will choose stuff that doesn't synergize well with their "design concept" for how their super hero will perform.


3) Game content develops, changing what is actually fun.

A great example (since this is Cryptic) is from CoH back in the days of AoE farming. Players loved AoE farming and did some stupidly ridiculous things with it while using Invuln tankers. So lots of people played AoE toons. Once Cryptic realized how much of an issue it was, they then changed how AoE performs. While this was a good move, it totally changed game content and how people played. Making builds not play the same.

While sometimes game content changes are practically required, they will also change how characters play. Forcing players to stay in builds focused on old game content options without a method of changing themselves is basically cruel.


4) Players realize they prefer PvE or PvP later on, but they built their toon for the wrong content.

PvE vs PvP. As with every solid MMO I've ever seen, your entire character build changes for PvP or PvE content. While the current power system allows for some leeway in this regard (say take 6 PvE powers, 6 PvP powers, and 4 powers good in both). What looks good on paper doesn't play well in actual game play.

When people level up their characters, their builds tend to be very different than from what they use in end game content. Whether it be PvP or PvE. It is an invariable fact that preferable PvP/PvE builds will not 100% match a leveling build. In addition to that you have the number 1 problem.

Many players find out at level cap that they actually enjoy something more than they realized. You will have players who focused on PvP or PvE centric powers/advantages/talents and then want to try to dip their hand in the other side of life. And they will get owned or suck simply because they are specialized for other game content.


5) Leveling... Players realize they prefer another role (tank, dps, support) than they are currently built for.

This ties directly into leveling. When players level up, they did it by gaining experience points. And to get those at any kind of a reasonable rate, you have KILL things. Which means that your powers and abilities will be focused on DPS. There are far too few instances at the lower levels to show players the value of alternative roles. Support, Tanking, Hybridization, etc only become viable at higher levels, when you've already got multiple powers locked into place.

Many, many, MANY players will level up having a blast being little dps machines. And then when they get to higher level (and locked into their power/adv/talent selections) they will suddenly want to try their hand at other roles. They might wanna be the guy who makes the group win becuase of buffs/debuffs but skipped those powers because they were not good for leveling. Or they may want to tank, only now seeing how nothing they have will get them to be a tank.

MMO's will always reward DPS builds for leveling. Killing things for exp just makes sense. So long as you only reward players for DPS while leveling, how can you imagine they will be purchasing tank or support related powers, advanatages, or talents? While exceptions/minorities always exist, we're talking about the majority of players.


6) Players didn't spend hours testing out each new availble power at level up (that gets seriously tedious) and don't realize until later that they missed out on powers they really wanted.

The fact is that the majority of players won't be spending hours at each new power up level testing out all of the new powers available to them. And before you say, "That's their fault" stop and *think* about it for a minute. Playing a game is about FUN!! And for most people, constantly clicking on some trainer dudes and running back and forth to dummies pounding away at them just is not fun at all.

Because of that players will end up selecting powers they learn later are inferior, or improperly suited for their goals. In addition to that they will lose out on power options they will find out later that they want. In the end, the basic problem exists. Players may not find out for a month sometimes that there are powers they'd prefer over others they have selected. And while they would have replaced those older powers with them, they can't afford to replace their most recent ones.




Summation of Issues

While the most fundamental flaw on the in game respecing revolves totally around leveling builds, there are other issues dealing with players not understanding the game and the designers changing the game. So there is the rub. There is literally no way to fix these issues. Players are not going to start off as masters of the game. The designers will end up nerfing/buffing things. And leveling builds will forever and always push players into the tunnel of PvE DPS centric selections.

Because of this, and because these are immutable facts that cannot be fixed, the entire respec system current used by Crypic for CO is flawed to the core. So the simplest answers are right in front of you. Change the respec system and the character generation system.

[Archived Post]

Respecing and Character Generation Suggested Fixes

One of the facts that is probably a universal truth among gamers is that when they start a new character they have a "design goal" in mind for what they want their character to be. Either it's gonna be a caster (magic), a blaster (hurling electricity), or a brute (smashing foes with fists). So one of the first things that should be done is to lock players into their initial power frameworks.

While the idea of "power/custom framworks" is great, you guys really missed something here that could have helped CO. You should have locked players into their initial power framework only, and nothing else. That itsn't to say they can't buy powers outside of the Framework like normal. I only mean their initial power selections.

Short List of Changes


Choose one Power Framework that will be locked permanently.
Choose one additional Power (besides the energy builder) that must be from that Framework.
Choose Talents that will *NOT* be locked permanently.
Respecs will have 2 options. One will be 100% excepting the initial locked in two powers, and another will be for the last 10 levels.
Full respecs need to not have the 10 level respec limit on them the time it is done in the Power House.


1) Choose one Power Framework that will be locked permanently.

The format should be changed, simply put. While all of the current available options should stay, how they are slelected should not stay the same.

When selecting a new character players should choose one power framework. Custom Frameworks should not exist. The first power of every framework should be set in stone as their signature Energy Builder power, and players should never be able to select an additional energy builder power. Any time you respec, this initial Energy Builder should be set in stone.


2) Choose one additional Power (besides the energy builder) that must be from that Framework.

CO, through the respec system, currently allows you to take a secondary power outside of your primary energy builders Power Framework. That isn't going to work. Also it doesn't make sense why there are several choices at the Power Builder when respec'ing at level 6 for that second power.

Simply allow the player to select their second power from any within the same Power Framework that their Energy Builder comes from. In essence you would have your Energy Builder power, and then one more power from the same Framework that would normally be accessible when respecing at level 6. While that second power doesn't have to locked in (respecing would be viable), the fact that it comes from the same Power Framework as the energy builder would be locked it. No questions asked.

While some might rail at a restriction, this in essence locks all characters into a pre-set design goal by the player. Brutes will be brutes, casters will be casters, etc... It at the very least stops someone from using an "ideal/imagined full respec" to become a totally different character.

The advantage here is that no one could do a full respec, name change, and costume change to make one hero become a totally different hero. He/She'd still have the same original Power Framework powers and you'd still have the out of framework power limitation costs.


3) Choose Talents that will *NOT* be locked permanently.

At this point, everything the player ever chooses for their character can be respeced. They choose a talent build of their choice, and the CO design teams add in tooltips suggesting which stats are best for their Framework *ON THAT SCREEN*. That way if someone picked Munitions for example, on the talent screen there'd be a suggestion stating that Dex and Ego are their best stats. People don't always remember what you had several pages back for them.

I also see no reason to not include the 12/12/5's builds that come predesigned for you. They're actually subpar imo. But whatever, it's not a dealbreaker.


4) Respecs will have 2 options. One will be 100% excepting the initial locked in two powers, and another will be for the last 10 levels.

Full Respecs

While I don't think there should be a restriction on respecs at all, outside of a prohibitive in game cost, it seems Cryptic will not leave this design concept behind. IMO they should take a page out of WoW's book on this one however and let it go to make their players happy.

That said, if they refuse then I'd suggest a similar option to CoH where you have to do a quest/mission line with a difficult instance allowing you to do a full respec. This of course would have a limit on how many times you could get the reward (the respec), but not a limit on how many times you could go (to help friends).

Both systems are simple and easy, and proven to work.

Partial Respecs

Sometimes people goof up and messed up. Versus forcing them to blow a crap ton of in game money for a full respec (or a highly valued full respec from a mission that is near impossible to replace) there should be an in game method to quickly fix a mistake only just recently made.

In addition to that this would allow a player to easily choose a power to go try out and see if they like it. After a mission or two if they didn't like it, they could just go change it in. This would be an amazing option combined with the Full Respec concept.

In essence, this is the current in game respec method except it goes back 10 levels.


5) Full respecs need to not have the 10 level respec limit on them the time it is done in the Power House.

When a person does a full respec in the Power House, the last 10 items purchased limit on Respec needs to be lifted for that instance of the Power House. The worst possible thing would be using a full respec, and then accidentally buying something you never meant to and missing that fact until you were past the point of respecing.

Honestly, it needs to be a part of the Full Respec that stays on you until you actually exit the building. So logging out and dc'ing need to not reset your Respec limit either.



Summation of Fixes

Because the current respecing method is flawed to the core, I see these as the only viable fixes. It locks players into certain stylized builds by forcing them to stick with their initial two powers, while at the same time allowing them to change their character for whatever reasons they may find. Again I hope they decide to take a page from WoW's book and offer Full Respecs based off of in game currency, but they seem more close minded now about Respecs than they were in CoH.

As things stand however, people will leave/quit CO for no other reason than they feel like they screwed over their "Main". People love their characters. They spend upwards of hundreds of real life days playing on them. If you make someone feel like they fundamentally screwed up their "Main" and favorite character permanenly, a lot of people will simply stop playing versus starting a new character they will never love as much.

[Archived Post]

The ORIGINAL post, now in Archives can be found here with previous responses, etc...
http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=38983

A quick workaround trick for people...

Want a power to stay on your respec list? Every few levels (4-5 tops) go back to the Power Builder and respec everything down to what you're not sure of. Then train up again.

When you train up, train up the things you know you will never change. Like talents, or a power you will never give up. Once you've done that, train up any advantages and powers you're not sure of.

As you keep leveling up, the most recent selections from training are the ones that stay at the top of the Respec list. You could keep a level 6 travel power at the top of your Respec list if you really wanted to test out each one every few levels for example.

[Archived Post]

As things stand however, people will leave/quit CO for no other reason than they feel like they screwed over their "Main". People love their characters. They spend upwards of hundreds of real life days playing on them. If you make someone feel like they fundamentally screwed up their "Main" and favorite character permanenly, a lot of people will simply stop playing versus starting a new character they will never love as much.

Well said and I agree 100%.

You should read this article, SJ:

Champions Online Will Fail Without a Full Respec Option (http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/47085.aspx)

Thanks for the detailed post. I hope the devs listen and act accordingly. I think they will. I have faith in them. They worked hard on a great game. Surely they won't ruin it by clinging to some idea that people shoudn't be allowed to fully respec fully/almost fully.

[Archived Post]

Want a power to stay on your respec list? Every few levels (4-5 tops) go back to the Power Builder and respec everything down to what you're not sure of. Then train up again.

That is a good tip, and it is one that even the developers have recommended to people.

Unfortunately, right now the respec cost formula is so insanely broken that there is no way anyone could possibly afford to do this.

Most people cannot even afford to respec a single power one time. :(

[Archived Post]

Very well written SJ

Awesome stuff...

;)

[Archived Post]

SJ Feedback - Munitions Lead Tempest bugged and munitions numbers (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=897521#post897521)

Please take a look at that thread. It's just another example of how you can get permanently screwed by Cryptic to have a power forever. I did not have enough money to purchase a respec at level 6 to get rid of Two Gun Mojo like I wanted to. Cryptic even acknowledged the fact that they screwed up the Respec costs. So now, I am forever stuck with an attack I did not want?!?! How is that remotely fair?

[Archived Post]

Yeah I second what SJ said.

Hey Cryptic, if you're gonna throw around buggy powers and super nerfing, give us full re-spec and stop f-ing with us. Making us re-roll is player hating

[Archived Post]

Cryptic even acknowledged the fact that they screwed up the Respec costs. So now, I am forever stuck with an attack I did not want?!?! How is that remotely fair?

At level 24, selling every single drop I get, I made about 35s (3,500) per hour. I also made about 50% of the xp for my level in an hour, so I don't think I'm playing slowly at all. I'm powering through quests and mobs non-stop.

A full respec would cost about 3.2 million.

So it would take over 914 HOURS to earn enough money for a respec. If I play 4 hours a day, that's 228.5 days, or 7 months, 15 days.

Cut that by 100, and its 32,000 resources to respec. That's over 9 hours of grinding. Wow. That's still crazy. For a good baseline, compare to the respec trial in CoH. That takes about an hour.

So that makes the current system about 900 times too expensive.

[Archived Post]

Good post but I do have something about the New players choosing wrongly.

Its a superhero game, the selling point, at least for me, its the ability to DIY your very own Superhero and customise the hell out of it.

Why should I choose abilites and stuff, that does not to suit my character design concerpt I have in mind?

If I did so, wouldn't me, personnally turned it into a Min/Max game? Where, we all choose the same thing, and have the same best abilites? Take a look at Roper's CO interview on character creation.

Right now the only beef I have with this game is the cost for retcon and costume. If they are brought down to highly reasonable levels, I'll find ways to level and play the char I created.

[Archived Post]

*bump*

Do read the OP.

[Archived Post]

Good post but I do have something about the New players choosing wrongly.

Its a superhero game, the selling point, at least for me, its the ability to DIY your very own Superhero and customise the hell out of it.

Why should I choose abilites and stuff, that does not to suit my character design concerpt I have in mind?


I'm not sure what you are asking, but I'll try to answer.

Character concept evolves and changes over time. Sometimes what you thought fit, or you thought would be fun, ends up not being fun or not fitting later.



Take a look at Roper's CO interview on character creation.


Roper shouldn't be anywhere near a discussion of game design. He needs to stick to what he is good at and has the most experience with - voice overs and writing manuals.

[Archived Post]

I'm not sure what you are asking, but I'll try to answer.

Character concept evolves and changes over time. Sometimes what you thought fit, or you thought would be fun, ends up not being fun or not fitting later.

Still have not answered the question, "Why should I choose powers/abilities, that don't go with my character concept."

If I thought of another fitting concept, I'll make another character for that concept.

If I ran into a situation that is totally negative to my current build I'll go get help from another superhero.


Roper shouldn't be anywhere near a discussion of game design. He needs to stick to what he is good at and has the most experience with - voice overs and writing manuals.

Ya. I noticed...

Since Crapgate: London :(

[Archived Post]

Still have not answered the question, "Why should I choose powers/abilities, that don't go with my character concept."


I don't know why you should or should not. That's really up to you. If you are saying you feel like you have to, in order to be viable right now, then I would agree that is unfortunate and its something they need to fix.

If you are saying that people picking for concept would never need to change for concept, well:

Many people start off with a general concept of their character, and they let it evolve over time as they play. Incidentally, a lot of writers do the same with their characters in books. They have a general idea, and as they craft the story the character evolves. Sometimes they go back to the beginning and change things as the process of crafting the story alters the characters.

So even from a pure, 100%, character/RP/concept standpoint, there are plenty of justifications and good reasons for why someone would want and need a full respec.