Champions Online: Attributes and Numbers

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread. Please unsticky!]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]

[Archived Post]

Psst Ego doesn't boost block energy anymore, tank role just got a bonus to block energy gain instead. Unless they reverted it or re added it, also there's a list of the 'life weight' classes somewhere, basically you need a certain amount of points for a weight tier. The top is somewhere around 425 IIRC.

That said nice work

[Archived Post]

Radia, thanks, especially for the Attribute Dependencies, that's something that is written nowhere easily available (understand tooltip), and I always had the most difficulty to figure.

I'l be looking forward to the updates, especially the dodge / avoidance part...

[Archived Post]

Some info on the damage bonus diminishing returns that's in place for Freeform but not ATs seems like it would be in the scope of this guide. Also, does healing bonus have the same sort of DR?

[Archived Post]

First off, let me say that you have put together an amazing resource here. That being said, here are some things to look into:

energy unlocks not scaling linearly when both stats are taken into account; as a specific example, Thermal Reverberation may provide +0.1 Energy per point of endurance when Recovery is 5, but is it the same when Recovery is 50?
diminishing returns on Dodge/Avoidance, Crit Chance, etc. (e.g., you present a +% critical chance per point of Dex, but is that independent of other sources of +Dodge?)
is Audacity giving 30 points of Int/Ego, or a 30% increase in Int/Ego?

[Archived Post]

Bookmarking this thread and asking for permission to re-link it.

[Archived Post]

Thanks for posting this. It's super-useful.

[Archived Post]

This information is great, thanks.
One thing, I've noticed that higher Dex will lower the benefit from Critical Strike gear. Could you elaborate on what "each scales the other" means.
Critical Strike (Increases critical chance; nonlinear. Stacks with dexterity bonus, but each scales the other.)

My bad.
I re-read and saw that the interaction between Dex/Crit Strike is known but "I have not currently documented these interactions at this time" so I'll just keep watching for updates.

[Archived Post]

Psst Ego doesn't boost block energy anymore, tank role just got a bonus to block energy gain instead.

I was not sure about this, since Force Shield's description still says something about scaling with ego. You are right, energy returns do not seem to scale with ego but rather with damage after mitigation. ADDED: Blocking and Force Sheath scale with recovery. (Thanks: serju)

I'l be looking forward to the updates, especially the dodge / avoidance part...

This should be one of the next things on the list of things to test.

Some info on the damage bonus diminishing returns that's in place for Freeform but not ATs seems like it would be in the scope of this guide. Also, does healing bonus have the same sort of DR?

I have placed a link at the top to the thread in question for now and will update as I have time to test.

All +X% bonus healing from attributes and gear appear to be additive with no diminishing returns. The support role bonus is in a separate layer, as is the bonus from stars, but the star and support role bonuses are not in the same layer as each other.


energy unlocks not scaling linearly when both stats are taken into account; as a specific example, Thermal Reverberation may provide +0.1 Energy per point of endurance when Recovery is 5, but is it the same when Recovery is 50?


The two scaling attributes on energy unlocks are independent from one another and will scale it independently from each other. For example, the energy returns one receives from Hunter's Instinct will be from one's ego scaling additive with one's recovery scaling.


diminishing returns on Dodge/Avoidance, Crit Chance, etc. (e.g., you present a +% critical chance per point of Dex, but is that independent of other sources of +Dodge?)


One thing, I've noticed that higher Dex will lower the benefit from Critical Strike gear. Could you elaborate on what "each scales the other" means.


Redacted. (Rather than leave misinformation here.) Kardokis and Kurabian give the correct explanation below.


is Audacity giving 30 points of Int/Ego, or a 30% increase in Int/Ego?


It is points. I have clarified this on the main post. Thank you for noticing!

Bookmarking this thread and asking for permission to re-link it.

Of course! Please enjoy!

[Archived Post]

/subscribed.

Radia this is an amazing thread! Thank you for your hard work. :)

[Archived Post]

I believe the tiers for strength's pick up and throw mechanic are along these lines: 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320

320 is what you need to lift a Titanic class object, 160 for Colossal, 80 for Gigantic and so on as per the blocks in the Powerhouse Mobility room. Having enough strength to reach the subsequent tier means that the prior tier no longer triggers a channeling bar when attempting to lift.

I haven't re-tested the values in some time though so they may be a little off.

That said, great thread. d('-' )

[Archived Post]

I don't have the numbers, but my friend who has been testing these things says Critical Strike works like the equivalent amount of Dex, so 200 Dex and 100 CS is exactly the same as 300 Dex for your critical rating. Nothing more complicated than that.

Also, for recovery, I know Energy Strength affects more than just your energy builder, like the old energy on kill items, but I've never been clear on what all it affects.

[Archived Post]

some corrections need to be made:
-defiance's energy return also scales with recovery.
-energy returns scale with recovery as well... but that's alittle obivious :)
-unstoppable energy scale with rec
-way of the warrior scales with str/dex
- force shield+adv and blocking in general now scale with rec

will post more when i find it.

[Archived Post]

I don't have the numbers, but my friend who has been testing these things says Critical Strike works like the equivalent amount of Dex, so 200 Dex and 100 CS is exactly the same as 300 Dex for your critical rating. Nothing more complicated than that.

This is also the way that cost reduction on gear works. [Int + Cost Reduction] is looked up on a single diminishing returns curve. Ignore the intelligence tooltips, look at the actual cost of abilities, and you can confirm this yourself. Same deal for [Dex + Crit Strike].

Cooldown reduction does not work this way, however. Intelligence yields a certain percentage from a curve, gear cooldown yields .27777% cooldown speed per gear stat point (at level 40, not sure if this is a level-relative stat). These two percentages are then added together.

E.G.: 100 intelligence gives 15% cooldown speed, 36 gear cooldown stat gives 10% cooldown speed. End result is 15+10=25% faster cooldowns. (Which is a 20% reduction in cooldown duration, if you want to look at it that way. Cryptic didn't invent this concept; there's no reason to call it "Cryptic math".)

[Archived Post]

I believe the tiers for strength's pick up and throw mechanic are along these lines: 5, 10, 20, 40, 80, 160, 320

320 is what you need to lift a Titanic class object, 160 for Colossal, 80 for Gigantic and so on as per the blocks in the Powerhouse Mobility room. Having enough strength to reach the subsequent tier means that the prior tier no longer triggers a channeling bar when attempting to lift.

I haven't re-tested the values in some time though so they may be a little off.


Thank you! I will note this at the top.

I don't have the numbers, but my friend who has been testing these things says Critical Strike works like the equivalent amount of Dex, so 200 Dex and 100 CS is exactly the same as 300 Dex for your critical rating. Nothing more complicated than that.


I believe your friend is right about this. I will make corrections. Thank you for this information!


Also, for recovery, I know Energy Strength affects more than just your energy builder, like the old energy on kill items, but I've never been clear on what all it affects.


I'm not really sure either. It does scale most energy unlocks, and those numbers have been noted above. If anyone has more information on this, please let us know!


some corrections need to be made:
-defiance's energy return also scales with recovery.
-energy returns scale with recovery as well... but that's alittle obivious :)
-unstoppable energy scale with rec


These were already noted in the third post. No numbers for Unstoppable's energy return because the tool tip does not display it. I may test it in the future.


-way of the warrior scales with str/dex


Way of the Warrior scales with your chosen super stats.


- force shield+adv and blocking in general now scale with rec


You are right! Hopefully, I can get some numbers for blocking.

This is also the way that cost reduction on gear works. [Int + Cost Reduction] is looked up on a single diminishing returns curve. Ignore the intelligence tooltips, look at the actual cost of abilities, and you can confirm this yourself. Same deal for [Dex + Crit Strike].

Cooldown reduction does not work this way, however. Intelligence yields a certain percentage from a curve, gear cooldown yields .27777% cooldown speed per gear stat point (at level 40, not sure if this is a level-relative stat). These two percentages are then added together.

E.G.: 100 intelligence gives 15% cooldown speed, 36 gear cooldown stat gives 10% cooldown speed. End result is 15+10=25% faster cooldowns. (Which is a 20% reduction in cooldown duration, if you want to look at it that way. Cryptic didn't invent this concept; there's no reason to call it "Cryptic math".)

Thank you for more input! I will note it at the top. I suppose that is what happens when I think of it as more complicated than it needs to be. As for "Cryptic math", it is a colloquialism commonly encountered on the Champions Online forums to denote the method of computation used for some values, not something I decided to name it.

[Archived Post]

Glorious spreadsheet queen is glorious. :D

[Archived Post]

As for "Cryptic math", it is a colloquialism commonly encountered on the Champions Online forums to denote the method of computation used for some values, not something I decided to name it.

Oh, I know. It's not a shot at you, just at the community in general. :P

[Archived Post]

Awesome guide.

Unstoppable seems to be roughly 1/3 of Rec. Only tested it with two sets of numbers, but both was very close to 30% 132 Rec or so gave 42 energy back, and 214 (or so I need to log in to get exact number) gave 76 energy back.

but there is probably a larger number under 70 Rec, and the usual smaller returns over 70.

[Archived Post]

Glorious spreadsheet queen is glorious. :D

I don't think the spreadsheet is that glorious. It's rather messy. :p

Oh, I know. It's not a shot at you, just at the community in general. :P

It's hard to tell when just reading words sometimes, my apologies hehe
I do feel silly for not looking for a simpler solution, and fixating on the changing tool tip, so thank you for that! I am assuming the critical strike portion is calculated first and the contribution from dexterity is added to that, hence the changing tool tip, but it is just a guess.


Unstoppable seems to be roughly 1/3 of Rec. Only tested it with two sets of numbers, but both was very close to 30% 132 Rec or so gave 42 energy back, and 214 (or so I need to log in to get exact number) gave 76 energy back.

but there is probably a larger number under 70 Rec, and the usual smaller returns over 70.

Thank you for looking into this. I'll take another look too when I can, but I'm rather lazy after the first round of testing.

[Archived Post]

These were already noted in the third post.

yep, but for defiance the scaling for energy return is simillar to how str is also scaled with the forms.... con is the main one, rec is the secondary. seems like rec has to do with anything energy >.>

Way of the Warrior scales with your chosen super stats.
yea, but the energy return scales on str/dex (http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=1928699&postcount=3) :)

[Archived Post]

yea, but the energy return scales on str/dex (http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=1928699&postcount=3) :)

I'd like to find someone making regular use of that energy return. Trolololo ;)

[Archived Post]

VERY nice work in progress here :eek:
Havent book marked anything in a while until now :D

GJ, and keep up the good work! ;)

[Archived Post]

I am assuming the critical strike portion is calculated first and the contribution from dexterity is added to that, hence the changing tool tip, but it is just a guess.
That has been my assumption as well, but I haven't confirmed it since it honestly doesn't matter as long as we understand the underlying numbers. :P

Lemme see if I can dig up anything from my spreadsheet that hasn't been mentioned in the thread... This is either minor or incomplete stuff, but hey, the server's down, might as well sit here typing.

The curve for levels off pretty crazily at higher values. I wasn't able to measure any difference between 500 and 600. Both yielded a 92% efficiency increase. Maybe if I was using something super expensive like Force Cascade instead of Mindful Reinforcement I could have measured a difference, but the added resolution wouldn't really change the conclusion of "don't bother raising it that high". :P

(One sad thing about this patch is that utility gear can easily push you into diminishing returns on cost reduction, leaving intelligence without as much utility as it used to have.)

My testing setup wasn't suitable for learning about dodge and avoidance ratings, all I can provide is that 109 gear dodge rating at level 40 yields a 36.4% dodge rate, and 109 gear avoidance rating at level 40 yields 53.8% total avoidance. I'm sure anyone studying the subject already has those values.

Are the mechanics of knock resist something you feel is appropriate for this thread? I have a small bit of data on that, and could easily do more tests, but I don't know if someone else has already figured it out or not.



As for cooldown speed, I realized that my earlier explanation could have been simpler--I mistakenly thought that cooldown from intelligence was on a curve, which isn't true. Neither of them are on a curve, so the whole thing can be expressed more simply:

CooldownSpeed = (0.15% * Intelligence) + (0.275% * GearCooldownRating)

Which gives us how much more often one can use powers.

[I](General note for those who don't understand 'Cryptic math': Really, most of the confusion comes from Cryptic's terminology--they call things "reductions" when they mean increases. e.g. Using normal language, a "100% reduction in cost" would mean something is free, whereas a "100% increase in efficiency" would mean you get twice as much for your cost, or in other words, that the cost is cut in half. They label it as the former, but we get the latter. This is true for cost 'reduction', damage 'reduction', etc. Consider on top of this that most bonuses are additive rather than multiplicative, and 'Cryptic' math is no longer so cryptic.)

[Archived Post]

Heh was just coming to post to say this needs a sticky... only to see it stickied. Good job :)

[Archived Post]

I'd like to find someone making regular use of that energy return. Trolololo ;)

it's very situational, but you get energy back nonetheless. i'd pick unstoppable over that one personally :)

[Archived Post]

Does bonus healing from items and SS and PRE all stack together, is there some DR mechanic layered on top of all this? I tried out a +23% or so Primary Offense item and it added only like 5% to my heals.

[Archived Post]

Gratz on the sticky Radia!

And thank you for sharing all your hard work with the community!

:)

[Archived Post]

For Telekinesis and liftable objects, at Rank 3 Telekinesis, the scaling is the same as for Strength (so you need 320 for the largest objects).

I'm not sure how it drops off if you have less than R3 TK, though.

[Archived Post]

For Telekinesis and liftable objects, at Rank 3 Telekinesis, the scaling is the same as for Strength (so you need 320 for the largest objects).

I'm not sure how it drops off if you have less than R3 TK, though.

Even more than 320. Prior to On Alert I wasn't able to lift the largest box in the PH until my STR hit 328. I haven't checked since because there is no reason to push STR that high with 3 superstats contributing.

[Archived Post]

Sorry for the delay, I have been busy and a bit ill lately. Numbers for the attribute tree specializations have been posted. Thank you everyone for your contributions!

[Archived Post]

Updated for changes in the latest patch. (Mainly auras and forms.) Please notify me of any errors and undocumented changes to powers. Thank you!

[Archived Post]

Overdrive's scaling is backwards, dunno if that got fixed or not(scales on END then INT)
not sure about this, but telepathic reverb's tooltip mentions ego...

blocks:
force sheath has a 8% bubble.
tk shield+adv has a 16% bubble

specs:
brutality's scaling is less than it shows, might be a tooltip error since the numbers on the C window show different values.
bulwark's values are the same as in tank role afaik.


will post more when I find it.

P.S thanks for the mention :D

[Archived Post]

Thanks. Seraph Very handy !

[Archived Post]

Thanks. Seraph Very handy !I concur. Thanks for keeping the thread updated.

[Archived Post]

Overdrive's scaling is backwards, dunno if that got fixed or not(scales on END then INT)
not sure about this, but telepathic reverb's tooltip mentions ego...

blocks:
force sheath has a 8% bubble.
tk shield+adv has a 16% bubble

specs:
brutality's scaling is less than it shows, might be a tooltip error since the numbers on the C window show different values.
bulwark's values are the same as in tank role afaik.


will post more when I find it.

P.S thanks for the mention :D

Overdrive's scaling is backwards, but the issue is between Endurance/Intelligence versus Recovery. I have removed it for now, since it is not an available power on live.

I have not seen discrepancies for Brutality's numbers aside from rounding, but I can look into it again.

Bulwark's values are indeed the same, but they only apply in Hybrid role, assuming the tooltip is accurate.

Aura of Arcane Clarity's team +X% Charge Speed also does not interact with presence, but scales with the player's super statistics instead. It also does not scale with rank.

Any layout suggestions would be helpful. (Colors, formatting...) The current version is rather difficult to read. (At least for me.)

[Archived Post]

[Deleted: PWE/Cryptic forum account mergers will make it impossible to continue updating this thread.]Too bad you nuked the numbers... I had this great thread bookmarked for future use... :(

[lawblack]

To the original author of the post/thread: could you repost your topic elsewhere and ask to a moderator (if there's any) to pin/stick it, please? It was very useful intel; too bad it would be lost in limbo!

Thanks

[deliverything]

[Deleted: Google's cached copy's replaced too now.]

[gonzolo4584]

Does anyone have a copy of the info that used to be posted here? Seems like it would have been great info not readily found.