PDA

View Full Version : Can we do something about Defiance?


Archived Post
09-29-2011, 01:43 PM
So is there anyway we can have tanks looked at in pvp? Maybe get rid of some resistance..? Because personally all I see now is defiance stacking dodge with enrage bonchi... How boring!

Welcome to Champions Online PvP? No wonder people hate this pvp system.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 03:58 PM
This won't be looked at seriously, ever, because there's a concerted effort to get one of the only things that can even scratch Defiance-based tanks (Dragon's Wrath) nerfed into the ground. If they won't even realize that it serves a purpose (and that the advantage needs to be propagated to more stuff), there's no way in hell they're going to "look at" Defiance. :(

The tank playstyle is sacrosanct, and it's perfectly acceptable for their build choices to invalidate those of others, because being immortal is a total concept build and shouldn't be able to be harmed if someone's "dedicated" to it. But anyone who builds a tank-buster is a deviant powergaming freak that wants to ruin the gameplay of others while running around with a non-thematic character that could never be a superhero.

But it's ok to create high-damage setups using builds based around anything other than Dragon's Wrath, because everything else magically "requires setup" and "is complex to play", while anyone that uses Dragon's Wrath is automatically a mouth-breathing moron only capable of hitting two buttons (lunge and DW). Maybe three, if they use Geyser.

Not to mention that DW won't even let you actually kill a tank without either hold or heal debuff support, but that's usually glossed over too.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:12 PM
I dunno, I run a Defiance HW-Darkness character and non-DW builds can still wreck me

Then again, I don't put IDF or dodge stuff on top of that Defiance, so maybe that's why. It's not just Defiance, it's defense stacking in general.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:14 PM
^What Sage said.

I'd hate DW a whole lot less if it's defense penetration went to other powers, like Ego Blade Annihilation. Alas, with all the DW-hate going around, I anticipate many folks leaving when/if it gets nerfed to the ground and they realize one of the good tools for tank killing is gone. And it's all their fault.

::edited for clarification::

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:14 PM
This won't be looked at seriously, ever, because there's a concerted effort to get one of the only things that can even scratch Defiance-based tanks (Dragon's Wrath) nerfed into the ground. If they won't even realize that it serves a purpose (and that the advantage needs to be propagated to more stuff), there's no way in hell they're going to "look at" Defiance. :(

The tank playstyle is sacrosanct, and it's perfectly acceptable for their build choices to invalidate those of others, because being immortal is a total concept build and shouldn't be able to be harmed if someone's "dedicated" to it. But anyone who builds a tank-buster is a deviant powergaming freak that wants to ruin the gameplay of others while running around with a non-thematic character that could never be a superhero.

But it's ok to create high-damage setups using builds based around anything other than Dragon's Wrath, because everything else magically "requires setup" and "is complex to play", while anyone that uses Dragon's Wrath is automatically a mouth-breathing moron only capable of hitting two buttons (lunge and DW). Maybe three, if they use Geyser.

Not to mention that DW won't even let you actually kill a tank without either hold or heal debuff support, but that's usually glossed over too.OFMFT. I am so sick of the massive ignorance and lack of understanding when it comes to that power and it's relation to combat and building in PvP.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:21 PM
Nerf defiance and nerf dw. Problem solved. everyone is happy.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:26 PM
As much, others are equally sick and tired of the massive cover-up and butterballing attempt to defend a power so obviously overpowered, to the point of coming up with phony excuses for the justification of its existence.

As if, that power, can really kill the typical "supertank" user.

...

In reality, people use that power for much, much different reasons... and none of it has to do with killing supertanks. Its basically a slaughter tool against anyone not a supertank.

Its the single most numerously used power in the game, with PvP players ranging from the competitive to the mediocre, casual players to the top level duelists - most every melee build leaning toward that one single power.... and the excuse they come up with is "hype".


*snicker* Yeah, right.

If this goes on soon they'd probably say the total abundance of TP in the days back were all because of "hype" too. "Hey, STC and Uppertapping was all hype too, you know!"

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:35 PM
^What he said.

I'd hate DW a whole lot less if it's defense penetration went to other powers, like Ego Blade Annihilation. Alas, with all the DW-hate going around, I anticipate many folks leaving when/if it gets nerfed to the ground and they realize one of the good tools for tank killing is gone. And it's all their fault.

Be more clear, please. Whose fault would it be?

Because I've ran a Dragon's Wrath user in PvP since about October of last year, and I finally ragequit on her after coming to the belated conclusion that building a dedicated, conceptually "melee-only" character and trying to use them in PvP is, at best, setting yourself up to fail.

How the hell is it my fault that the character I built around the aesthetics of a two-weapon backstab is the target of nerf-herding by people who can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground with two hands and a map?

Watching the DW complaints from all sides:


The snooty, stuck-up RPers saying it isn't "thematically appropriate" and *****ing about how "knives" don't have a place in their narrow view of a superhero world

The people who complain about it because it makes them actually have to care about being attacked on their 'tanks' when they take a defensive passive and no active mitigation and expect to be able to eat most damage

The squishies that get hit with it as collateral damage and complain without realizing that their defenses are so low that it doesn't give much of a benefit and they'd be instagibbed anyway

The people who use a different powerset that maybe requires one more button or a stacking of a buff and think that makes them a technically-adept master player with the moral authority to condemn everyone else that doesn't use their setup the way they use it (and then throwing backhanded insults at similar builds because one power apparently makes a build "complex" or not)

And even the people who run stacked-heal uber-tank builds that rant about the non-tank peasants having the gall to attempt to scratch them



Those people are growing in numbers and strength, and the constant nerf-herding and ranting (especially from the uninformed) is getting sickening. It's to the point where I don't even like hopping onto the game because I'm tired of having a character I like playing be derided as "idiotic" or being accused of being a power-gaming ****** that wants to ruin the game for others.

You want to talk **** about DW? Build a melee-only character (with a lunge as your only range) and try to take on tanks. When you die, and die repeatedly without getting them down below about 30% health, then you can talk. And then maybe you'll realize that most of the complaints about DW are unfounded, and that it's all the other cheese that goes into those builds that actually lets you apply DW's advantage to what it's designed for.

I guaran-damn-tee you that if the actual power attributes for Dragon's Wrath and Dragon's Claws were switched (DW has DC's stats but keeps the double-stab animation), people would still be complaining about Dragon's Wrath over Dragon's Claws. They'd just make up stupid stuff about how the crit boost invalidates their plastyle or "takes no skill" or is "only used by cowards".

I'm sorry for loosing this rant on you, Potemkin. I like you and respect you, and it isn't directed at you, personally or specifically. Your comment that I perceived as it somehow being "my fault" (and the fault of other DW users) was just the final straw.



In reality, people use that power for much, much different reasons... and none of it has to do with killing supertanks. Its basically a slaughter tool against anyone not a supertank.


Dragon's.

****ing.

Claws.

That outdamages DW on squishies, handily. Yet it's not *****ed about. Why?

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 04:45 PM
The problem with DW is that it's a bit overpowered; defense penetration is extremely valuable and doesn't really seem to have been priced into the power (it should probably be a 2p advantage). Ebon Ruin is problematic for much the same reason (the heal debuff is extremely valuable and should probably be a 2p advantage). The crit severity bonus on DC also doesn't seem to have been priced into the power, though it's not worth 2p (as a 2p advantage, I'd change the boost to 100%; due to ranking mechanics, 1p is a meaningless cost).

Both powers are, to a degree, masking a bigger problem: you can't kill a serious tank without using broken powers; you really don't solo kill a tank unless you're using DW, ER, or falling damage.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 05:05 PM
Nerf defiance and nerf dw. Problem solved. everyone is happy.

Well except those of us who don't stack defences who would need to start stacking defences just to keep playing.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Be more clear, please. Whose fault would it be?

Because I've ran a Dragon's Wrath user in PvP since about October of last year, and I finally ragequit on her after coming to the belated conclusion that building a dedicated, conceptually "melee-only" character and trying to use them in PvP is, at best, setting yourself up to fail.

How the hell is it my fault that the character I built around the aesthetics of a two-weapon backstab is the target of nerf-herding by people who can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground with two hands and a map?

Watching the DW complaints from all sides:


The snooty, stuck-up RPers saying it isn't "thematically appropriate" and *****ing about how "knives" don't have a place in their narrow view of a superhero world

The people who complain about it because it makes them actually have to care about being attacked on their 'tanks' when they take a defensive passive and no active mitigation and expect to be able to eat most damage

The squishies that get hit with it as collateral damage and complain without realizing that their defenses are so low that it doesn't give much of a benefit and they'd be instagibbed anyway

The people who use a different powerset that maybe requires one more button or a stacking of a buff and think that makes them a technically-adept master player with the moral authority to condemn everyone else that doesn't use their setup the way they use it (and then throwing backhanded insults at similar builds because one power apparently makes a build "complex" or not)

And even the people who run stacked-heal uber-tank builds that rant about the non-tank peasants having the gall to attempt to scratch them



Those people are growing in numbers and strength, and the constant nerf-herding and ranting (especially from the uninformed) is getting sickening. It's to the point where I don't even like hopping onto the game because I'm tired of having a character I like playing be derided as "idiotic" or being accused of being a power-gaming ****** that wants to ruin the game for others.

You want to talk **** about DW? Build a melee-only character (with a lunge as your only range) and try to take on tanks. When you die, and die repeatedly without getting them down below about 30% health, then you can talk. And then maybe you'll realize that most of the complaints about DW are unfounded, and that it's all the other cheese that goes into those builds that actually lets you apply DW's advantage to what it's designed for.

I guaran-damn-tee you that if the actual power attributes for Dragon's Wrath and Dragon's Claws were switched (DW has DC's stats but keeps the double-stab animation), people would still be complaining about Dragon's Wrath over Dragon's Claws. They'd just make up stupid stuff about how the crit boost invalidates their plastyle or "takes no skill" or is "only used by cowards".

I'm sorry for loosing this rant on you, Potemkin. I like you and respect you, and it isn't directed at you, personally or specifically. Your comment that I perceived as it somehow being "my fault" (and the fault of other DW users) was just the final straw.




Dragon's.

****ing.

Claws.

That outdamages DW on squishies, handily. Yet it's not *****ed about. Why?

Wasn't directed at you, Sage, was directed at the Defiance-running folks calling for DW to get gutted after someone DARED to shave off a couple HP or *gasp* kill them. I know DW alone can't kill tanks after actually using it (it fits his concept, I swear!).

As for the wall-o'-text rant, no worries, I've got thick skin. :)

::edit:: I'm no stranger to the DW hate. After making a dual-blades tank, I've gotten tells and mails deriding my build like you....probably would believe, all things considered. And yet, I get no such hate when I spike them to oblivion with Ego Annihilation because it "requires skill" (read: one TK Maelstrom gets me all the stacks I need for full damage). Or when I imbue-sigil them (soon to be phased out), or Haymaker, or...well, you get the idea.

This DW hate needs to stop. Or at least be made equal. Somebody rage about Ego Annihilation or something.

Archived Post
09-29-2011, 08:16 PM
The problem is not defiance itself. Its people who stack multiple heals and defences on top of defiance to enter godmode. Defiance by itself is more than good enough defense, but people to make it seem more potent than it is with this type of stacking.

And this stacking is not limited to defiance. Works just as well or better even with LR and Invul.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 01:00 AM
The problem is not defiance itself. Its people who stack multiple heals and defences on top of defiance to enter godmode. Defiance by itself is more than good enough defense, but people to make it seem more potent than it is with this type of stacking.

And this stacking is not limited to defiance. Works just as well or better even with LR and Invul.

Meh, defiance or invuln BY THEMSELVES is already a good defence, and what is LR by itself? Nothing If u don't stack EM+IDF+BCR+LK on top of LR it's useless. So i don't see a problem if we nerf those 2 defensive passives to work similar to LR, where u have to spend more powers to become tanky, but not unkillable(in LR's case, no matter how much defence u stack, 1 good maintain would still kill u, that's why i think LR is balanced)

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 01:41 AM
Basically what kien said is true. Yes Dodge is annoying, but to be godmode in dodge ( not likely unless you sacrifice a load of damage).

Where as defiance and invul... YOU ARE GOD MODE if you just pick up a defensive active and 1 heal really... Its just sad... In my opinion STOP TRYING TO BE A SUPER SAIYAN

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 01:48 AM
Nerf defiance and nerf dw. Problem solved. everyone is happy.

Yet another great contribution from PvPer (not targeting the whole community of PvP, mind you)...

Basically what kien said is true. Yes Dodge is annoying, but to be godmode in dodge ( not likely unless you sacrifice a load of damage).

Where as defiance and invul... YOU ARE GOD MODE if you just pick up a defensive active and 1 heal really... Its just sad... In my opinion STOP TRYING TO BE A SUPER SAIYAN

When you're done with defiance, pick any other skill and restart the rant...
Defense stacking is the issue, not a single skill / passive.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 02:05 AM
I'm not too big on the PvP scene so I'll chime in from the PvE'ers side.

If you start swinging the nerfhammer around, trying to lower the effectiveness of a power that some might deem OP'd, it causes a domino effect. Suddenly this power is too strong in correlation to this, power, and now THIS power needs to be nerfed, but wait, not ANOTHER power is OP...

It isn't as simple as saying "If we nerf this, everything will be roses and rainbows"

The problem that I see is not that Defiance or Invul plus one heal is instant god mode. It's the ability of people to stack Defiant+IDF+high dodge gear+BCR+RR(god forbid the player has SS pre so any other heals they might have will be even more effective)

Maybe somebody should complain that when put together like this, the sum of the parts is so incredible it outweighs most everything it is compared to.

I would like for everything to be looked at with a fine tooth comb. Any changes the PvP group want to see instituted will effect me regardless, so please try to look at this from both sides of the spectrum. If such drastic nerfs were to be implemented, I can bet many a PvE'ers would find their toons rendered useless.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 02:38 AM
This won't be looked at seriously, ever, because there's a concerted effort to get one of the only things that can even scratch Defiance-based tanks (Dragon's Wrath) nerfed into the ground. If they won't even realize that it serves a purpose (and that the advantage needs to be propagated to more stuff), there's no way in hell they're going to "look at" Defiance. :(

The tank playstyle is sacrosanct, and it's perfectly acceptable for their build choices to invalidate those of others, because being immortal is a total concept build and shouldn't be able to be harmed if someone's "dedicated" to it. But anyone who builds a tank-buster is a deviant powergaming freak that wants to ruin the gameplay of others while running around with a non-thematic character that could never be a superhero.

But it's ok to create high-damage setups using builds based around anything other than Dragon's Wrath, because everything else magically "requires setup" and "is complex to play", while anyone that uses Dragon's Wrath is automatically a mouth-breathing moron only capable of hitting two buttons (lunge and DW). Maybe three, if they use Geyser.

Not to mention that DW won't even let you actually kill a tank without either hold or heal debuff support, but that's usually glossed over too.

You sound very bitter.

Still 100% correct though.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 05:34 AM
Meh, defiance or invuln BY THEMSELVES is already a good defence, and what is LR by itself? Nothing If u don't stack EM+IDF+BCR+LK on top of LR it's useless. So i don't see a problem if we nerf those 2 defensive passives to work similar to LR, where u have to spend more powers to become tanky, but not unkillable(in LR's case, no matter how much defence u stack, 1 good maintain would still kill u, that's why i think LR is balanced)

Hey Kien I was in Ren Center today and I saw Relm Totally Own you ^^

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 09:18 AM
Hey Kien I was in Ren Center today and I saw Relm Totally Own you ^^

Meh, why not let this guy win at least one time :P never saw him win a duel vs anyone good before o.o

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 09:32 AM
I think Defiance stacks should fall off when they give you Enrage (down to Defiance rank), but mostly because I always thought that made playing Defiance more interesting.

But I agree with those who say Defiance by itself is not a game breaker. But it has perfect synergy with some terrific powers - Enrage, MSA, IDF, MD, Unbreakable, Imbue, Ego Surge+adv, Aspects, and various melee knocks. It's certainly not as dodge friendly as Invuln, but is much better for ranged stuff.

Regarding DW, I'd like to see Rush get yanked off of it (minor change, I think), and I'd like to see armor piercing put as a 3-point adv on a lot of powers, maybe on most/all ranged piercing attacks, or maybe on most/all powers that have crippling challenge. I think the suggestion to make an offensive role with armor piercing is intriguing as well. I think that would help demystify DW and increase build variety.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 09:33 AM
Hey Kien I was in Ren Center today and I saw Relm Totally Own you ^^

May we all be lucky enough to witness the glory of force geyser, ego weaponry, force geyser, ego weaponry.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 09:38 AM
One thing about TK is you can at least swap in a +.50 primary def for it. It's probably useful anyway if you're seeing Ebon Ruin and Ego Storm. That may not help Defiance toons a lot, but it makes a big difference for most other passives.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 11:46 AM
Hey Kien I was in Ren Center today and I saw Relm Totally Own you ^^

That couldn't have been Kien, it must have been his mascot doppleganger Warz xD

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 01:16 PM
That couldn't have been Kien, it must have been his mascot doppleganger Warz xD

Nope saw it with my own eyes. I was like O.O... and kien had a DW build. How ironic that DW is being mentioned here ^^.

Archived Post
09-30-2011, 07:27 PM
From what i've seen kien doesn't take rencen dueling very seriously, so there is a high chance he let him win lol

Archived Post
10-01-2011, 12:10 AM
The squishies that get hit with it as collateral damage and complain without realizing that their defenses are so low that it doesn't give much of a benefit and they'd be instagibbed anyway





This is the one I get a chuckle out of when I see someone complaining about how their dueling opponent only beat them because he had the OP DW. I try to explain that DW's defense penetration doesnt matter that much against someone running Fireform/IceForm/Shadowform/etc. You dont have much to complain about DW's penetration if you could be one shotted by Dragon Kick.