This _is_ too easy

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Build:
Superhuman

Shadow Bolt EB
Ebon Void (R2,R3 asap)
Spirit Reverberation (useless, build never uses energy, needed the power to qualify for regen)
Regeneration (R2, R3 after EV)

Super Con
Super Str

Acrobatics

No Talents
No other powers
I'll probably rank acrobatics when i get that far.

Currently level 11 (no R3 on regen yet)
I only play on elite (where possible)

Finishing Canada Crisis
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg42/Squirrelloid/CO%20is%20easy/01CanadaCrisisRakshasa.jpg

Killing some level *28* henchmen on my way to Resistance
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg42/Squirrelloid/CO%20is%20easy/02MCdowntown.jpg
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg42/Squirrelloid/CO%20is%20easy/03MCdowntown.jpg

Soloing 2 Mega-Ds (battle ongoing at time of posting)
http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg42/Squirrelloid/CO%20is%20easy/04MultifariaMegaDestroids.jpg

Shouldn't we have an elite setting where enemies were *actually threatening*? Say, had ways of breaking blocks and countering healing? I mean, elite should require some actual thought or activity from the player, right?

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You're 11.
Everything is easy at that point.

...Why are you posting a build at 11?

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I got through the Millenium City crisis with no travel power, no superstats, just one Tier 0 power, and no talents.

This game is too easy.

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You're 11.
Everything is easy at that point.

...Why are you posting a build at 11?
Because there seems to be a rise of "OMG! The game is too easy!" mentality atm?

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You're 11.
Everything is easy at that point.

...Why are you posting a build at 11?

level 28 henchmen at level 11?

elite megadestroids in Resistance at level 11?

with a patently stupid build?

Come now, if that isn't proof of stupid easy, i don't know what is. (Maybe leveling all the way to 40 like this? I'm not sure if i can take it, i think i'll run out of books to read).

(Mega Destroid battle still ongoing, i think its almost half dead. Seriously, i can just tab out of that fight and check forums, upload screenshots, etc...).

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Because there seems to be a rise of "OMG! The game is too easy!" mentality atm?

Of course Rakasha is also as hard as Corrupted Amphibian :o

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So you made a character with powers that someone probably told you were overpowered, and the game is too easy? maybe you should be posting that them powers are broken.

Most of my level 11 guys can't take out a level 28. Hell my level 13 darkness dude sucks.

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level 28 henchmen at level 11?

1) They are just henchmen
2) It took you 3 minutes to take out 2 henchmen

elite megadestroids in Resistance at level 11?


They can to your level so it isn't that big of a deal.

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In the end .. what do you want to tell us .. that Regen is overpowered and needs to be nerfed ? :p

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SL ain't that tough in that tier, solo, with less enemies.

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why would you even want to do any of that only using an energy builder, block, & regen? it's not that it's easy, it's straight up boring.

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Just wait till he uses regen at higher levels over powered becomes usless. ;)

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So what would be evidence that the game is too easy? I mean, beating elite legendary content just by holding block seems kind of trivial.

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I can solo elite to 40 in two and a half hours with nothing but an energy builder.


true story.

. but entirely false

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So what's your angle? You want the game to be harder or the block to be nerfed?

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So what would be evidence that the game is too easy? I mean, beating elite legendary content just by holding block seems kind of trivial.

Kill a Legendary with an AT like Inferno or Blade ;)

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So what's your angle? You want the game to be harder or the block to be nerfed?

Harder. Elite should feature attacks that break blocks, counter heals, and otherwise have ways to defeat common player tactics, and thus require actual tactics and good builds or teamwork to beat. (OP updated slightly).

Kill a Legendary with an AT like Inferno or Blade ;)

How about a become device? Or are those too good?

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I got through the Millenium City crisis with no travel power, no superstats, just one Tier 0 power, and no talents.

This game is too easy.

I lol'd.. until I saw that avatar. Then I cried. But only a little. And then a lot after that.

On a side note... what were we talking about again?

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I have to say if this game is so easy why do I see so many people asking for help to do missions. Or is it just that the OP wants to brag and show he can do things with his block and energy builder. I mean I can fish with a stick some string and a bent safety pin so why bother with all this fly fishing. I mean fishing is so easy.

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Sounds god-awful boring. Though, if you want 'This is way too easy' level shenanigans...

Take out an Elite Legendary, with only your energy builder contributing any damage at all. Only allowed passive is Personal Force Field (or none, if you prefer - the amount of difference would be minimal). No block enhancers. No devices. You, your EB, and a very angry Legendary.

Bonus points if it's a melee-only EB.

While I don't exactly disagree that Elite should be harder, I think you're still way off base for what I'd consider 'too easy'.

Quite literally anything else is employing either foreknowledge or some level of planning into the equation, and even the constraints I gave leave plenty of room for exploitation. I don't find situations where you've specifically gamed the system (in an open system) for the most advantages exactly something worth using as a metric for whether something is 'too easy' or not.

You can do a lot of crazy stuff with just an AT, research, experience, and skill. You can even build 'the worst build imaginable' and have it be the most perfect satire on the entire concept of terrible builds (XKCD's farewell to Netscape level artistry of bad), and it'll still showcase how well you know your opposition, personal player skill, and experience building.

Color me unimpressed with this malarky.

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I have to say if this game is so easy why do I see so many people asking for help to do missions. Or is it just that the OP wants to brag and show he can do things with his block and energy builder. I mean I can fish with a stick some string and a bent safety pin so why bother with all this fly fishing. I mean fishing is so easy.

Normal can and should be easy.

Elite should not be. Elite should be geared to challenge the top 5% of builds. It doesn't even challenge the junk i posted in the OP. This is a problem. The point of an elite setting is so that people who want a challenge can get one, right? Being challenged should not require intentionally gimping power selection so badly that some ATs look appealing by comparison.

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.... I can fish with a stick some string and a bent safety pin so why bother with all this fly fishing. I mean fishing is so easy.

:cool:

very :cool:

.

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Harder. Elite should feature attacks that break blocks, counter heals, and otherwise have ways to defeat common player tactics, and thus require actual tactics and good builds or teamwork to beat. (OP updated slightly).



How about a become device? Or are those too good?

If you can do this with any combination of block and energy builder, then fine. otherwise it's the power that's broken.

Let's see you do it with Guard and Force Bolts.

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Sounds god-awful boring. Though, if you want 'This is way too easy' level shenanigans...

Take out an Elite Legendary, with only your energy builder contributing any damage at all. Only allowed passive is Personal Force Field (or none, if you prefer - the amount of difference would be minimal). No block enhancers. No devices. You, your EB, and a very angry Legendary.

Bonus points if it's a melee-only EB.

While I don't exactly disagree that Elite should be harder, I think you're still way off base for what I'd consider 'too easy'.

So, your definition of too easy is 'and the enemies don't even attack'? Really? Since that's the only way that, mathematically, the scenario you lay out could ever happen.

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Easy also implies that a player can go through the content quickly. Being able to defeat an opponent (regardelss of who or what it is) but having it take a very long time is another way of saying the content is difficult.

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So, your definition of too easy is 'and the enemies don't even attack'? Really? Since that's the only way that, mathematically, the scenario you lay out could ever happen.

Is it? With my loosely applied constraints (EB being the only damage contributor, no block enhancement, and just PFF as a passive) I see a lot of room for adding defensive measures, or damage boosting. I don't see it happening, but I gotta admit. It's a curious thing.

I'm intrigued by how you arrived at your conclusion with such speed that you can declare mathmatically that it's impossible. Would you be interested in showing your work, accounting for all possible variables?

EDIT: Nevermind that I still disagree with how you're attempting to make your point. We agree in concept (Hard+ difficulties should be more meaningful), but the way you're attempting to go about it is distinctly unlikely to produce results. I look forward to the expected counter-arguments to that being pointed out, and hope to be surprised in either the way they're stated or (gosh) an unexpected point of rebuttal.

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So what your saying is you want content that can only be run by a select few powerful builds and like pvp not to be used by concept builds. Is this so you can have bragging rights "I made an uberbuild that can do elite look at my power Muhahaa" Sorry I can't stand this elitism I enjoy playing Champs as it is and would hate it to become not about the concept of my comic book hero but about those who cherry pick powers just to make uber toons.

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So what your saying is you want content that can only be run by a select few powerful builds and like pvp not to be used by concept builds. Is this so you can have bragging rights "I made an uberbuild that can do elite look at my power Muhahaa" Sorry I can't stand this elitism I enjoy playing Champs as it is and would hate it to become not about the concept of my comic book hero but about those who cherry pick powers just to make uber toons.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

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Easy also implies that a player can go through the content quickly. Being able to defeat an opponent (regardelss of who or what it is) but having it take a very long time is another way of saying the content is difficult.

Disagree in principle, difficult implies it takes skill to accomplish. Spending time is not a skill. (And really, it doesn't personally cost me time, i'm reading a book and posting on the forums while the game virtually plays itself).

Is it? With my loosely applied constraints (EB being the only damage contributor, no block enhancement, and just PFF as a passive) I see a lot of room for adding defensive measures, or damage boosting. I don't see it happening, but I gotta admit. It's a curious thing.

I'm intrigued by how you arrived at your conclusion with such speed that you can declare mathmatically that it's impossible. Would you be interested in showing your work, accounting for all possible variables?

Sorry, i interpreted your post to mean 'no powers except an EB' for some reason. I'll think about it, especially since you apparently didn't limit gear. Can probably be done, although getting the gear to prove it would not be cheap.

So what your saying is you want content that can only be run by a select few powerful builds and like pvp not to be used by concept builds. Is this so you can have bragging rights "I made an uberbuild that can do elite look at my power Muhahaa" Sorry I can't stand this elitism I enjoy playing Champs as it is and would hate it to become not about the concept of my comic book hero but about those who cherry pick powers just to make uber toons.

So people who enjoy a challenge don't have to intentionally gimp themselves to be challenged. If you want to use concept builds that aren't especially powerful, there are other difficulty settings for that. The whole point of a difficulty slider is so that *players can scale difficulty to challenge themselves*. What's the point of a difficulty slider if the top setting isn't actually difficult?

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I'm not averse to a challenge, but I'm afraid this doesn't prove anything in terms of difficulty. All it does is display a simple way to trick the mob AI. Also, it uses a method that is way outside the realm of normal gameplay. No one is going to slog through this entire game from 1 to 40 with a block power. Who would sit through the boredom of standing around blocking for hours and hours?

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So what your saying is you want content that can only be run by a select few powerful builds and like pvp not to be used by concept builds. Is this so you can have bragging rights "I made an uberbuild that can do elite look at my power Muhahaa" Sorry I can't stand this elitism I enjoy playing Champs as it is and would hate it to become not about the concept of my comic book hero but about those who cherry pick powers just to make uber toons.

Indeed. I agree.

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So people who enjoy a challenge don't have to intentionally gimp themselves to be challenged. If you want to use concept builds that aren't especially powerful, there are other difficulty settings for that. The whole point of a difficulty slider is so that *players can scale difficulty to challenge themselves*. What's the point of a difficulty slider if the top setting isn't actually difficult?

Can I suggest you try PVP or maybe if you find the difficulty to easy that you move on to another game that challenges you rather than asking a game to be changed to suit you. I don't want to be negative towards you it is not my style I just don't get people who want a game to suit just them screw everyone else. I met enough people like that in other games.

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Can I suggest you try PVP or maybe if you find the difficulty to easy that you move on to another game that challenges you rather than asking a game to be changed to suit you. I don't want to be negative towards you it is not my style I just don't get people who want a game to suit just them screw everyone else. I met enough people like that in other games.

How does playing on lower difficulties screw players who don't make powerful toons? Seriously. Difficulty *slider*, set your own challenge level. Why is the top level still trivially easy?

Heck, my toons are all concept toons. They also have at least some synergy. I'm no pro-builder like some people on this forum, but even I can see how trivial *elite* settings are.

I do some PvP. The power imbalances in the game become increasingly unfun as you get higher in tiers in PvP. I'm not interested in playing a cookie-cutter build. Even with lower tier PvP i'd get bored pretty fast if i did nothing but. What's so wrong with expecting that I should be able to *make PvE challenging* if i *choose to do so* by using the difficulty slider provided?

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btw, you skirted the 'try PvP if it's so easy' thing .....

.

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btw, you skirted the 'try PvP if it's so easy' thing .....

.

Above post edited while you posted this.

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Heck, my toons are all concept toons. They also have at least some synergy. I'm no pro-builder like some people on this forum, but even I can see how trivial *elite* settings are.

Your concept was a regenerating dark blocker?

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How does playing on lower difficulties screw players who don't make powerful toons? Seriously. Difficulty *slider*, set your own challenge level. Why is the top level still trivially easy?

Heck, my toons are all concept toons. They also have at least some synergy. I'm no pro-builder like some people on this forum, but even I can see how trivial *elite* settings are.

You know something I don't think any one will change your mind. You know what's best for the game and I will have to agree to disagree.

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Your concept was a regenerating dark blocker?

This particular toon i don't consider a real character. Its a demonstration piece. At least until I work out exactly what I want to do with it (easy to retcon and rebuild later)

I have 10 other real toons, all of whom are concept.

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This particular toon i don't consider a real character. Its a demonstration piece.

I have 10 other real toons, all of whom are concept.

Great, so, if your fake character is just an example, and you can't do this with any other, or most other energy builder + block combinations, then I think it's the powers you chose, not the difficulty, that's broken.

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I think some of the people who post around these parts just have a highly idiosyncratic definition of "too easy".

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Great, so, if your fake character is just an example, and you can't do this with any other, or most other energy builder + block combinations, then I think it's the powers you chose, not the difficulty, that's broken.

I haven't said can't yet. Certainly doing Mega-Ds will take time, quite a bit of time, i doubt i'll be able to do it tonight, especially since you're asking for a far more involved demonstration.

So, Force Bolts (EB) + random HW starter power (removed from power bar, prereq) + guard + regeneration? A level 11 vs. level 28 henchmen demonstration might be doable tonight. Anything else is going to take more time than i plan on being awake for.

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I really think you've got your homework cut out for you. If it's not the energy builder and block, then maybe it's the passive defense that can be to blame. Maybe after you try some of those combos, you can spice it up with Personal Force Field or Lightning Reflexes. Also, can you do this throughout all level brackets, or is it just this easy in low levels?

If it comes down to the "problem" being the passive, then you've got to make sure it's overpowered all around, not just at lower levels.

You just can't be so jumpy to say that the whole game is too easy based on such a small sample. It's a ludicrous statement to make unless you pursue it fully.

Really the only statement you can make right now is "The game is too easy with Ebon Void, Regeneration, and this energy builder at level 11ish. You've seriously overextended your initial claim, I think.

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the game CAN be to easy at points...but we're supposed to feel heroic, so the real challenge shouldn't be every battle, so to speak. we have hard bosses. a level 11 analysis is amusing but pointless. I must admit I running a pretty gimped toon atm (PFF FTW!!!! ;)) I'm still ok at level 22, but I jump onto the black talon device on and off (that's the concept - brilliant but weak inventor, puts on power armor for the big fights...it works too. take PFF and the become black talon device seems very powerful :)) I'm confident I could get my inventor to 40 without it though. He's getting annoyingly competent, but that's ok I guess....he's still not "brute force" feeling.

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Suggestions for making the game harder:

(1) bigger numbers are NOT the answer
(2) As you increase the difficulty slider, enemies, especially master/supervillains and legendaries (etc..) should unlock additional attacks
(3): These attacks should be used *in response* to player defenses being encountered, not indiscriminately, and work to negate the defense.

Example:
An attack which is low damage but *if* it is blocked it breaks the block, deals substantially more damage, and applies crippling challenge to the player (preventing him from blocking for 10s). If it isn't blocked its just a low-damage attack. Attack should have a distinctive charge-up animation. The villain only throws the attack if its attacks are frequently blocked.

Note:
-Players can adapt to the attack to reduce its usefulness.
-A devastatingly successful (that is, hits a player who is blocking) blow by the power negates one of a player's defensive options both against the attack and for additional time afterwards.

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The game's difficulty as of now is the one most accessible to the largest number of people, and messing around too much with the established difficulties could potentially harm players.

Why not add one more tier over Elite, if the game really is too easy for you? Cause a majority of casual players, like myself, find the game to be perfectly fine. Admittedly, I only switch to Elite to give myself a challenge, but that's the point. It DOES give me a challenge. I don't have perfected builds, I don't specifically get the best powers available and combine them. I always flow with a particular theme and idea, and work till I can perfect it. (admittedly with a lot of help from a good friend)

Maybe have a hardcore mode or something that institutes the changes you suggested, but please leave the established challenge levels alone. I know my limits.

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Huh. So, Regen, Ebon Void, and the EB. Oh, and Spirit Reverb.

Shadow Bolts can fear target. SpritiReverb gives you END for hitting a feared target with dimensional energy. There's your END problem solved.

Regen is ridiculous at lower levels. Health problem solved.

Now, with unlimited health and unlimited END, what's the problem from outlasting everything? I dont see one.

Build makes things easy, not the difficulty. Besides the obvious, the difficulty slides with level. Comparatively, Elite at lvl11 will be easier than Elite lvl40.

On another note man, what's your endgame here? Are you trying to petition for the NPCs to have an un-fun godmode? I mean, posting "Hey, look at what I can do with unlimited END and HP!!" seems kind of...random and self-defeating.

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Suggestions for making the game harder:

(1) bigger numbers are NOT the answer
(2) As you increase the difficulty slider, enemies, especially master/supervillains and legendaries (etc..) should unlock additional attacks
(3): These attacks should be used *in response* to player defenses being encountered, not indiscriminately, and work to negate the defense.

Example:
An attack which is low damage but *if* it is blocked it breaks the block, deals substantially more damage, and applies crippling challenge to the player (preventing him from blocking for 10s). If it isn't blocked its just a low-damage attack. Attack should have a distinctive charge-up animation. The villain only throws the attack if its attacks are frequently blocked.

Note:
-Players can adapt to the attack to reduce its usefulness.
-A devastatingly successful (that is, hits a player who is blocking) blow by the power negates one of a player's defensive options both against the attack and for additional time afterwards.

This would have made a much better original post. I don't disagree with your suggestions here.

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Keep in mind that this is a poor benchmark to make a sweeping conclusion that the game is too easy by using just one or two purely anecdotal combat scenarios.

Experiencing the game's full content (or most of it) should make for a better, fairer judgement.

Anyway I noticed that the OP is using Regen that's higher than R1, and that he/she's blocking. What's more he/she was fighting the weakest class of enemy, and they generally deal very measly damage regardless of level difference. The damage they deal don't really scale that significantly the higher levelled they are, so it shouldn't be a hard thing to do to maintain block while having Regen heal you when needed, then attack and chip away at their health points (keeping in mind that they don't heal themselves at all).

Now, have someone use LR as their defensive passive and without the constant HoT effect that Regen gives, while just relying on maybe BCR for their first and only heal power so far at level 11. Have that player with that build go against a lvl 28 henchman and see how it goes. Let's make it more interesting by having the player not use any defensive passive, but an offensive one like Quarry.

I'm not holding my breath for any great results.

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Early game vs. weakest foes is easy with broken builds shocker! News at eleven.

The troll is strong with this one...

I'm with Smackwell. This is just silly, and not even the good kind of silly. And really, there's not a rise of "OMG this game is too easy!" at the moment, that's fallacious. There are a few of the same people whom are mostly reasonably requesting that the difficulty of Elite is ramped up a bit.

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This thread is a bit grating seeing as I had the pleasure of doing Serpent Lantern on a team where I was the only freeform, an under performing one at that, the rest being a bunch of ATs with relatively inexperienced players. Even on normal, it was a deathfest. Freon wiped us 4 times I think. Well, them rather, I managed to hang on without dieing, and probably would have killed him, but I hit EM on reflex and wiped threat at one point.

After that, I switched to my Unarmed MA character and it went mostly smooth after that. Our Tempest still managed to die repeatedly, but my ability to stunlock groups of enemies eased things out a bit.

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Suggestions for making the game harder:

(1) bigger numbers are NOT the answer
(2) As you increase the difficulty slider, enemies, especially master/supervillains and legendaries (etc..) should unlock additional attacks
(3): These attacks should be used *in response* to player defenses being encountered, not indiscriminately, and work to negate the defense.

Example:
An attack which is low damage but *if* it is blocked it breaks the block, deals substantially more damage, and applies crippling challenge to the player (preventing him from blocking for 10s). If it isn't blocked its just a low-damage attack. Attack should have a distinctive charge-up animation. The villain only throws the attack if its attacks are frequently blocked.

Note:
-Players can adapt to the attack to reduce its usefulness.
-A devastatingly successful (that is, hits a player who is blocking) blow by the power negates one of a player's defensive options both against the attack and for additional time afterwards.

This all sounds wonderful on paper,and was suggested in beta, even variations on it attempted, but all came to the same startling conclusion; It's too hard and makes the game unfun.

Combat in Champions online is fast, and a group or two of foes if you pull badly, can have a lot going on at once, and it's worse in teams. With thirty attacks flying around every four seconds, how are you to identify when to block, and when to attack?

It works fine to have a rock, paper, scissors mechanic in fights with just a couple of foes, since you can concentrate on the tactics needed to beat them one at a time, more or less. With many foes all on you and your friends all at the same time, you can easily be blocking a big charge up coming from one foe, while another one pegs you with this "weak but disables blocking and heavily damages blocking player" attack, thus two-shotting you in an instant.

Not fun.

I already have a personal beef with Knocks and Micro knocks disabling blocking, and more over leaving a window of "hard to tell" time that you can't re-block, as it is! It makes combat on any non defense passive user against knock spamming foes irritatingly hard.

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-yawn- Yet another post of "I pown this game so bad using good powers and boring my @ss off, please nerf!!!"?

-sigh- Seriously, guys, if this is too easy, I dunno, take the worst skills like PFF and Eye Beam and go have a blast...

It's tiring to see how many people love to whip themselves all day long...
You want challenge, create it for yourselves, stop moaning and asking that they affect everyone else.
I could say "Hey, I'm a chatty one, please nerf all powers so they auto attack while I chat please"...

So early... let me crawl back to bed and hope this will go away...

PS: Devs, please make them a super-uber-duper-blast-your-@ss-Elite mode please, so they can make themselves suffer and leave us to our entertaining game...

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I apologize for the tone of my earlier post. I'm not averse to a challenge, but these "too easy" threads irritate me, and my temper got the better of me just a bit.

Really, my problem with these threads is with the way they're presented. They start with the assumption that the game is too easy, and try to present it as an indisputable fact. But no amount of screenshots, videos, or demonstrations can definitively "prove" that the game is too easy. That's because "too easy" is a value judgment, just like whether someone thinks the weather is "too hot" or "too cold." It's highly subjective by its very nature, and the preferred amount of difficulty varies greatly from one player to the next.

So, when someone tries to "prove" something that's essentially a matter of opinion, it's bound to cause irritation to those who don't share that opinion. I think that's the reason why these threads always turn into the same tired old "hardcore vs. casual" nonsense that we're so sick of listening to. It starts the same, and it ends the same each time: It disintegrates into insults and name-calling. Clinging Flames and Fiery Escalation ensue until the thread gets locked.

Here is my suggestion: Instead of posting in this section saying "This game is too easy" and being subjected to a flame war, why not make your proposal in the suggestion box, and present it as something like "ideas to make elite enemy encounters more interesting." If the player base likes your ideas, who knows, they might get support. If not, then at least you'll have a better chance of having a constructive conversation about it. :)

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Looks like perfect match to me. I am easy, game is easy... we are happy. :D

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Because there seems to be a rise of "OMG! The game is too easy!" mentality atm?
...The troll is strong with this one (OP)...
...And really, there's not a rise of "OMG this game is too easy!" at the moment, that's fallacious...
"seems to be": sentiment, persuasion, view, thought, view, impression, feeling, belief, notion...

...Your statement that i "intended to mislead others with my words" (a definition of "fallacious") is itself fallacious.
Please don't put words in my keyboard i didn't put there, thank you :mad:

On the other hand, i do agree with the other part of your opinion.
Reminds me of a certain female zombie poster from a while back.

No opinion but their's matter... :rolleyes:

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Change Regen to AoAC and use your Energy builder.

Have fun.

[Archived Post]

Suggestions for making the game harder:

(1) bigger numbers are NOT the answer
(2) As you increase the difficulty slider, enemies, especially master/supervillains and legendaries (etc..) should unlock additional attacks
(3): These attacks should be used *in response* to player defenses being encountered, not indiscriminately, and work to negate the defense.

Example:
An attack which is low damage but *if* it is blocked it breaks the block, deals substantially more damage, and applies crippling challenge to the player (preventing him from blocking for 10s). If it isn't blocked its just a low-damage attack. Attack should have a distinctive charge-up animation. The villain only throws the attack if its attacks are frequently blocked.

Note:
-Players can adapt to the attack to reduce its usefulness.
-A devastatingly successful (that is, hits a player who is blocking) blow by the power negates one of a player's defensive options both against the attack and for additional time afterwards.

Sorry for double posting, but I'd like to respond to this idea also. I like the idea of mobs being smarter, but I can't get behind this suggestion. I don't like the way it abuses the rules of blocking.

From the very beginning, players are taught: Charge-up Attack = "BLOCK!"

This point gets hammered home all throughout the tutorial. It's a core mechanic of the game, and it's generally consistent from beginning to end in PVE. Yes, there are some attacks that can badly damage you even while blocking, and some that outright ignore blocking, but as far as I know there are none that actually hurt you more because you block them. Players are trained to block when they see the tell, and I think they'd consider it pretty dirty and underhanded to have a shtick attack that penalizes them for blocking it. A mechanic that punishes players for reacting the way the game says they're supposed to react is likely to cause more frustration than fun.

I do think mobs acting more intelligently to keep players on their toes is a good thing, but I don't think this is the way to do it.

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10 Chars...

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Easy also implies that a player can go through the content quickly. Being able to defeat an opponent (regardelss of who or what it is) but having it take a very long time is another way of saying the content is difficult.

Afraid I have to disagree with this. Taking longer is not more difficult, it is merely more time consuming.

Try to pick up and move a stack of 2.5kg (50 of them) weights. Now pick up and move them one at a time. Even for the fellow actually capable of picking up and moving the 125kg stack the second option will be easier (excluding specific individual problems with repetitive motion).

Bundle together 100 straw reeds and try to break the bundle. Then break them individually. For the individual capable of breaking the bundle the second option will still be easier.

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Another thread of if I rank up a block that also causes damage and Regen I can actually block, out heal and kill weak enemies and enemies who's attacks tic slow enough and low enough to allow regen to do it's job? Welcome to 2009...again. Sadly, two years later, that's still not indicative of the entire game in any way.

Why does it seem like one person recently got their exit papers so someone else has to make a duplicate of something the departed posted last week that was already a duplicate of stuff posted years ago...

War... never changes...

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Despite the problem being argued poorly (in a familiar way, at that), I think they should look into doing stuff to increase difficulty (or even add in a new difficulty layer for people that really want a challenge). However, there's a few issues that I'm well aware of that I'd like to point out:

1) Most of the changes, at the most functional level, require adding new mob behaviors. From some recent discussions in how powers work, and the PVP gear update, I don't think that this portion of the codebase was handled any better then it sounds like powers/gear are. To wit, I have a bad feeling that any sweeping changes to mob behavior at any point is going to be incredibly time consuming and likely revolve around going through and hooking up new behaviors on an almost individual mob basis or at least on a per-enemy-group basis. That's a redonkulous amount of work. I sure hope I get proven wrong on that one.

2) Even barring that, it still requires a lot of time investment hooking up a few things that are generally overlooked in mob behavior - specific conditional triggers. I'm not talking about 'If Target = Blocking' stuff, I mean basic things like 'Difficulty Scale set to OhSweetGeebusThey'reGonnaEatMe' or not. Otherwise, it's not locking that behavior to that difficulty - it's changing how all of the mobs think, act, and work. That goes contrary to all of the statements that any change in difficulty should leave Normal alone. That alone adds additional developer time into this.

This is all basic level stuff. Any change that does happen, isn't going to happen anytime soon and it may cut too heavily into development time somewhere along the line that could be better spent on things to keep the majority of the playerbase happier. I'm not even going to speculate on who exactly the 'majority' is - that's beyond the scope of my point.

The point in a concise fashion: This is core engine material we're asking for here, and that stuff in specific is time-consuming.

All that said, I really hope someone in the development team is at least looking into doing something in this direction. It'd certainly make me a bit happier as a player, and I can't really be the only one. Cleaning up some of the mob code (pathing - for the love of baby raptor Jesus, have someone look at pathing) might be a good idea at this point anyway.

I don't expect anything soon though.

We now return you to your thread in progress. ob

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Oh look, someone else found out regeneration is crazy powerful early in the game.

Wait till you get to the 30's and come back and let us know how that rank 3 regen is working for ya in VB or whatever.

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My friend told me the game was too hard, then he went back to City of Heroes :(

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Oh good this thread again .

The topic that misses the obvious point .

Was anyone expecting the games learning curve to be so difficult so as to always outpace the experienced player's potential ?

Players are getting more familiar with the game , and with consolidated stat changes , access to pretty much whatever they need gear wise on the ah to hit stat targets , familiarity with the scenarios they are presented with , etc etc , I would submit that this is a complaint from very good or experienced players and in no way shape or form reflects the experiences of casual players .

A higher level difficulty setting that yields slightly better gear than elite currently provides for ? Sure . Why Not ?

A game wide increase in difficulty reflected in even incremental differences on "normal" or "difficult" settings no . No . Just no .

We need potential new customers to feel heroic , and I think the current levels of difficulty provide for that . Harder setting fine . As long as it does not impact new / potential customers .

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If difficulty is increased, do you think game would:
a. have more players, earn more money
b. have less players, earn less money

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So you can take a R3 block and R3 Regeneration and outlast non-regenerating enemies?

That's a shocker.

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Because there seems to be a rise of "OMG! The game is too easy!" mentality atm?

Its a fad.

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-sigh- Seriously, guys, if this is too easy, I dunno, take the worst skills like PFF and Eye Beam and go have a blast...

Naw, if the AI's too easy and you really want to feel uberleet playing against a computer, go play chess against Deep Blue. When you've beaten that, you can have a few words with Gary Kasparov about how "leet" your AI-defeating skillz are.

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if the game is "too easy" or boring, why are you still playing it? :rolleyes:

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10 Chars...

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I did wind up stopping at level 17 because I felt the game was too easy. I have to agree.

To be honest though, I think it's more this format of MMO has been done to death so much. The whole "get a quest, do a quest" with minimal focus on storyline is about 8 years old, and when GW2 and Star Wars The Old Republic comes out, it's going to challenge this format to the core.

Now, I *did* enjoy Aftershock. If that had been more challenging and the entire progression was based around mini-missions like that, where you actually felt like a superhero and not an errand boy, I'd have been much more impressed.

Lots of things I love about CO, and I don't regret going gold for a month... there was just no lasting appeal here for me.

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*sigh*

I'd rather have a game that slightly easy, and fun...then super hard, and for 'elite' number cruncher players only.

Sure a challenge can be fun sometimes, but I'd hate to see CO become a 'job' MMO.

There are pathing, and AI issues, but other than that the difficulty is just fine as it is.

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Naw, if the AI's too easy and you really want to feel uberleet playing against a computer, go play chess against Deep Blue. When you've beaten that, you can have a few words with Gary Kasparov about how "leet" your AI-defeating skillz are.
Neh. Will not work.

It goes like: If I win its ez-mode. If I lose, get pwned, its crazy broken.

Some people just like to whine. Whatever you do they'll never be happy. There will always be something.

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.... when GW2 and Star Wars The Old Republic comes out, it's going to challenge this format to the core.....

whoa ...deja vu !

what were the end-all-beat-all games that were touted before in this same forum? APB? ****? Rift? DCUO ? .....

heh :cool:
.

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So what your saying is you want content that can only be run by a select few powerful builds and like pvp not to be used by concept builds. Is this so you can have bragging rights "I made an uberbuild that can do elite look at my power Muhahaa" Sorry I can't stand this elitism I enjoy playing Champs as it is and would hate it to become not about the concept of my comic book hero but about those who cherry pick powers just to make uber toons.

Totally agree. Locks like we have Snake Number 2 here :rolleyes:

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whoa ...deja vu !

what were the end-all-beat-all games that were touted before in this same forum? APB? ****? Rift? DCUO ? .....

heh :cool:
.

Everything points to preorder sales for SWTOR alone being over 1 million, and there hasn't even been a release date announced. Regardless, I'm sure I'm not going to like a lot about SWTOR, but I doubt I'm going to miss the lackluster stories given as window dressing for the "kill 12 mob quests".

Anyway, don't mean to derail the thread. As I said, I think CO had a lot to offer, just the extreme ease of the game made it not my cup of tea. I mean, I'd solo boss mobs and be at 100% life afterwards. I wasn't using phenominal strategy or being pro. I just mashed two buttons, one when my blue bar was filled, one when it was empty. And that's not even an extreme example like the OP was giving. Killing a mob 17 levels higher and being at full life afterwards? That's ludicrous.

In COs defense though, I tried leveling a WoW character again in Cataclysm. Gave up by level 21, deciding it would be more challenging/entertaining to watch TV instead. Dumbing down MMOs to EXTREME levels seems to be a recent trend. Can't fault Cryptic for making their game more accessable - I just hunger for a puzzle/challenge in the gaming format I love.

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So what your saying is you want content that can only be run by a select few powerful builds and like pvp not to be used by concept builds. Is this so you can have bragging rights "I made an uberbuild that can do elite look at my power Muhahaa" Sorry I can't stand this elitism I enjoy playing Champs as it is and would hate it to become not about the concept of my comic book hero but about those who cherry pick powers just to make uber toons.

Hit the nail right on the head...it's like this:

'Only I have this gear'

'Only I have this item'

'Only I can access this area'

'Only I can see this content...and you can't'

How is that even close to fun?

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Everything points to preorder sales for SWTOR alone being over 1 million
Preorder sales for Warhammer Online was over 800,000; it launched with over a hundred servers. Six months later they were down to 300,000 players and a lot of closed servers, now three years later the game is dead in the water with a guesstimated 10,000 players on four servers.

Preorder sales mean nothing.

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if the game is "too easy" or boring, why are you still playing it? :rolleyes:

I'm with this guy.

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I've played quite a few different MMO's over the years. In every single one of them, people have complained about the game being too easy. I've seen it so much that I just can't take threads like this seriously any more.
I personally feel the challenge level of CO is just fine.

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I did wind up stopping at level 17 because I felt the game was too easy. I have to agree.

To be honest though, I think it's more this format of MMO has been done to death so much. The whole "get a quest, do a quest" with minimal focus on storyline is about 8 years old, and when GW2 and Star Wars The Old Republic comes out, it's going to challenge this format to the core.

Now, I *did* enjoy Aftershock. If that had been more challenging and the entire progression was based around mini-missions like that, where you actually felt like a superhero and not an errand boy, I'd have been much more impressed.

Lots of things I love about CO, and I don't regret going gold for a month... there was just no lasting appeal here for me.

All MMO quests.. Wait. No. ALL computer game quests, ever, boil down to the EXACT same thing.

Verb Number Noun.

Kill 3 rats
Collect 10 packages
Escort 1 NPC
Rescue 3 hostages

Every. Single. One.

Why? Because artificial intelligence isn't up to duplicating that part of a GM's job in tabletop RPGs/Adventuring.

ToR's gonna be EXACTLY the same way. Verb number noun. Sure, it has full voice acting, and a proper story, all the things that BioWare is famous for - And don't get me wrong, I love BioWare. I'm one of those gajillion pre-orders. I have 1200 hours logged in Mass Effect 2, according to Steam. For a $60 game, I reckon that's value for money, right there.

But I'm not gonna fool myself into thinking it's going to be something new and revolutionary in terms of quest mechanics. Once you strip away the story, the voice acting, all the bells and whistles, what are you gonna get?

Verb number noun. Every time.

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I honestly wish Cryptic would just add block breaker attacks to mobs so people would shut up. Seriously, that alone would ramp up the difficulty drastically.

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Congrats you've beaten the game (insert random fanfair).
Please submit this topic and all proof of the accomplishment to the department of "oh god, not this again" to redeam your 20 quatloos

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I find if im finding it to easy I jump off the op build and use my soldier . plenty of ways of making the game easy or harder not just with the slider in options.

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I honestly wish Cryptic would just add block breaker attacks to mobs so people would shut up. Seriously, that alone would ramp up the difficulty drastically.

Only some of them. All the people who like it just the way it is would start up then (me included). Personally, I don't think block's powerful enough, but that's just me.

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I honestly wish Cryptic would just add block breaker attacks to mobs so people would shut up. Seriously, that alone would ramp up the difficulty drastically.
I only need one word to counter that: Brickbusters (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=129371).

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Only some of them. All the people who like it just the way it is would start up then (me included). Personally, I don't think block's powerful enough, but that's just me.

I agree. Also the nature of block, and how it's used in game (manual key press not auto triggered when attacked), means that your going to be 100% accurate with it all the time. You can be stun locked, or knocked back so much, that even if you hold the button down you aren't blocking anything.

While block breaking isn't a bad idea, perhaps add that feature to a 'super ultra uber hard' difficulty option.

That could work.

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Exactly. I'm not talking about the damage reduction. DR's fine. If you block forever, with no healing, you should fail, I think that's perfectly reasonable.

But Knocks and such, while blocking? Very annoying. What's even more annoying is that if I don't block and get Knocked, I get a stack of KB resist.

If I do block and resist the knock, I don't get a stack of KB resist. Okay. That's mildly annoying, but I understand where they're coming from.

But if I do block and DON'T resist the knock and still get sent flying halfway across the map because some ARGENT guy is overly enthusiastic with his grenades..... I still don't get any frickin' KB resist stacks.

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Because there seems to be a rise of "OMG! The game is too easy!" mentality atm?

The game is too easy.

It's been too easy since the game began.

This is nothing new.

I've gotten 1-40 with nothing but Pestilence and Devour Essence, without ever upgrading my equipment past the freebie stuff you get at level 6 from skipping the tutorial.

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Only some of them. All the people who like it just the way it is would start up then (me included). Personally, I don't think block's powerful enough, but that's just me.

They could add it to elite-only or whatever. And fix all the imbue exploits while we're at it. Everyone bragged how they could solo TT until they fixed a bug and solo Murdersaurus while she was bugged as well.

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The game is too easy.

It's been too easy since the game began.

This is nothing new.

This game can be, if you know what you're doing, very easy. How easy is too easy? But only if you know what you're doing. If you don't, then like everything else it's difficult, and a standard 1V2H spawn will prove challenging, out in the open world.

The discussion, I think, arises from whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing.

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To be honest though, I think it's more this format of MMO has been done to death so much. The whole "get a quest, do a quest" with minimal focus on storyline is about 8 years old, and when GW2 and Star Wars The Old Republic comes out, it's going to challenge this format to the core.


At least one of those games mentioned doesn't break the mold when it comes to MMO's, the other one I don't even know about. Point in fact one of those games is exactly like all the other games with missions I've played. Run here. Kill him. Get that. Go back to the contact.

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At least one of those games mentioned doesn't break the mold when it comes to MMO's, the other one I don't even know about. Point in fact one of those games is exactly like all the other games with missions I've played. Run here. Kill him. Get that. Go back to the contact.


GW2 really isn't a MMO either.

The other one is really really refined but its boilerplate 1st gen MMO gameplay. Its really well done but its going to disapoint people looking for a third generation MMO.

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You really don't even have to know what you're doing most of the times. The later stuff Cryptic has been pumping out is kinda fixing the problem. But for the most part, I can't even play this game anymore because of how mind-numbing easy it is.

Press 1, start energy builder.

Press 2, Single Target attack OR Hold 3, Channel AOE attack

Repeat until everything is dead.

UGH SO BORING.

How awesome would it be if more mobs were like the improved Viper? With Block breakers, Regen stumpers, summoners, banishers, tanks, heavy hitters, etc.

While technically the Viper group is still a pushover, it's a step in the right direction that Cryptic can't afford to do any more.

Right now the game is just a war of boredom. I don't have to select certain targets because they are more of a threat to me, I don't have to using ANY crowd control effects, I can just walk in a room and watch everything die.

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The game is too easy.

It's been too easy since the game began.

This is nothing new.

I've gotten 1-40 with nothing but Pestilence and Devour Essence, without ever upgrading my equipment past the freebie stuff you get at level 6 from skipping the tutorial.

May I?
I'm to strong.... blah blah blah..... leet.... blah blah blah.....uber-pwnage.... blah blah blah.....can do it all.... blah blah blah.....

I'm sorry, this might seem like a personal attack, but since you're telling us that the difficulty should be set following your standards... I guess it's fair.

Not everyone can do it.
Not everyone is Freeform.
Not everyone wants to cry in frustration just so the upper tier of players (PvE/PvP doesn't matter here) is satisfied.

Either ask for a new "Super-Elite" mode, after all, this is a super game.
Or ask that Elite be reinforced (With previous suggestion: superior AI, block-breakers, etc.)
But please don't impose your standards for difficulty on everyone.

Showing off your accomplishments in here brings nothing to the table.
Please, post solutions, that'll help.

EDIT: Bleeeeehhh, you pretty much did that in your second post... :-p

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GW2 really isn't a MMO either.


GW2 is not like GW1 .. so it should be a "real" MMO.

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At least one of those games mentioned doesn't break the mold when it comes to MMO's, the other one I don't even know about. Point in fact one of those games is exactly like all the other games with missions I've played. Run here. Kill him. Get that. Go back to the contact.


Guild Wars 2, pretty much what MMOs really should strive for.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/

It doesn't have anything of what you listed.

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The discussion, I think, arises from whether or not that's a good thing or a bad thing.

My votes with 'it's a good thing'.

I like how I can log in, play a super hero, see some cool attacks and animations, and just relax. I'm not arguing over gear or stats, or lamenting that I'll never be able to see the new adventure pack due to my low....iLevel gear *ahem* and that I'd never get better gear, because no one runs 'old content' anymore.

Sure I ask for build advice if I find something isn't working for me, but generally I do my own thing and try not to abuse the OP flavor of the month.

I'm not saying that folks who crave difficulty are wrong...it's just...why is an 'easy' game wrong?

This game at default is just right, it's not to harsh that new people run, and not to soft that it gets boring.

I really think the addition of a 'Lunatic' or some forum of ultra super mega hard difficulty, would quell the urges of those who crave elite challenges.

Then we can all be happy. ^_^

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You really don't even have to know what you're doing most of the times. The later stuff Cryptic has been pumping out is kinda fixing the problem. But for the most part, I can't even play this game anymore because of how mind-numbing easy it is.

Press 1, start energy builder.

Press 2, Single Target attack OR Hold 3, Channel AOE attack

Repeat until everything is dead.

UGH SO BORING.

How awesome would it be if more mobs were like the improved Viper? With Block breakers, Regen stumpers, summoners, banishers, tanks, heavy hitters, etc.

While technically the Viper group is still a pushover, it's a step in the right direction that Cryptic can't afford to do any more.

Right now the game is just a war of boredom. I don't have to select certain targets because they are more of a threat to me, I don't have to using ANY crowd control effects, I can just walk in a room and watch everything die.

I'm sorry you think it's boring.

I guess you're not Cryptic's target audience anymore (if you ever were).

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Guild Wars 2, pretty much what MMOs really should strive for.

One can only hope...

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It's not a matter of just upping the HP and stats of the enemy. It's improving the AI, and skills of the enemy. It's not making it arbitrarily "harder" IE Longer to kill a baddie. But making the baddies an actual threat. Instead of jsut walls of meat to cull.


I'm sorry you think it's boring.

I guess you're not Cryptic's target audience anymore (if you ever were).

What audience is that?

Sorry you feel the need to play Cryptic Defense Force. But it's not wrong to want a game to improve.

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GW2 really isn't a MMO either.

The other one is really really refined but its boilerplate 1st gen MMO gameplay. Its really well done but its going to disapoint people looking for a third generation MMO.

Anyone expecting TOR to be a '3rd generation' MMO hasn't been paying attention to what Bioware have been saying. They stated early on - in no uncertain terms - that they are not trying to reinvent the wheel. They are simply aiming to create a quality game that is fun to play while improving on the storytelling, which to date has probably been the most lackluster aspect of MMOs. But I digress...

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Try the same thing with A blade AT take first 3 skills and lets see how it works out or marksman or savage?

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May I?

Not everyone can do it.
Not everyone is Freeform.
Not everyone wants to cry in frustration just so the upper tier of players (PvE/PvP doesn't matter here) is satisfied.

At the end of the day... this...this is what it all boils down to.

The same old song over and over 'I want to hold my accomplishments over everyone else.'

'I want to have content that only I and the top 2% can see.'

'I want other plays to look at me in wonder and awe.'

'I have what 'they don't' that makes me a better player.'

Every single MMO...it never fails....from GW2 and beyond...

CO is that rare MMO that lacks, for use of a better term, Ego stroking.

...and I personally could not be more pleased about that.

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It's not a matter of just upping the HP and stats of the enemy. It's improving the AI, and skills of the enemy. It's not making it arbitrarily "harder" IE Longer to kill a baddie. But making the baddies an actual threat. Instead of jsut walls of meat to cull.
Difficulty should always be represented in ways other than big sacks o' HP. It's why I hate boss fights, because for all of their artificial tricks, at the end of the day, they're just big sacks o' HP. You and do not disagree on how to make encounters more difficult in CO, merely on whether its at all necessary.

What audience is that?
Well, the ones that like CO in its current state, aren't full of negativity about it, and, as stated in the "What would make champs stand out" thread, support and encourage Cryptic to make CO just like it is now, but with moar CO, instead of the ones who ***** and whine and complain and try and turn it from the game that it is, into the game that they want.. perhaps?
Sorry you feel the need to play Cryptic Defense Force. But it's not wrong to want a game to improve
Improve is a subjective term. Your kind of changes do not count as improvements by my definition.

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Doesn't mean that your game has to suffer because of it. An additional difficulty called "Gamer" with improvements to the enemy groups there would be fine.

Difficulty should always be represented in ways other than big sacks o' HP. It's why I hate boss fights, because for all of their artificial tricks, at the end of the day, they're just big sacks o' HP. You and do not disagree on how to make encounters more difficult in CO, merely on whether its at all necessary.

I think it couldn't hurt. And being able to target an audience of gamers would be nice.

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GW2 really isn't a MMO either.

The other one is really really refined but its boilerplate 1st gen MMO gameplay. Its really well done but its going to disapoint people looking for a third generation MMO.

How is Guildwars 2 not a MMO?

I think you need to do a bit more reading up on GW2 before you state those facts 1. its nothing like GW and 2. its modeled off similar to WoW this time around. no more linear.

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The_Last doesn't bother with facts. The universe rearranges itself to be more in line with The_Last's facts, so as not to incur The_Last's wrath.

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The_Last doesn't bother with facts. The universe rearranges itself to be more in line with The_Last's facts, so as not to incur The_Last's wrath.

That's sig worthy haha love it :)

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Improve is a subjective term. Your kind of changes do not count as improvements by my definition.

I would rather see this than a new plethora of hats to sell on the C-Store.

That's just me.

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Like I keep saying...it's all bout the Ego stroking.

Always has been....

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I'm not saying that folks who crave difficulty are wrong...it's just...why is an 'easy' game wrong?

This game at default is just right, it's not to harsh that new people run, and not to soft that it gets boring.


Jepp .. i'm totally fine with it since i prefer relaxed gameplay and it really get annoying in other MMOs that
you were always a second class player only because you don't liked running Raids or other Mega-Hard
Dungeons all day.

For Challenge .. things like Bunker Buster or Mutated Mayor even on normal are enough for me ;)

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I would rather see this than a new plethora of hats to sell on the C-Store.

That's just me.

Well, that's kinda my point. I'd rather see the hats. But I suspect they're different teams. Our current proliferation of costume pieces doesn't necessarily negate the chance of Robobo coming to the forums and saying "Well, guys, while our costume guys have been busy keeping the lights on here, cuz, y'know, we have to sell -something- to make money here, our other guys have been working on an 'UberLeetPwnUN00b' difficulty level. 2000 CPs allows you to play all of our content at a higher difficulty level. Cheap at twice the price."

Also, since we've been over this before, I'll ask again. Would you play this hypothetical difficulty level if you got the same rewards as VH?

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Guild Wars 2, pretty much what MMOs really should strive for.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/

It doesn't have anything of what you listed.

Heh for a moment I thought I mis-clicked for Dragon Age website. Creativity, at least for art design is not new... I couldn't care less about game itself.

What I do here (maybe I am speaking for some other players too) not simply playing a game. Game is just a tool for us to reach our superheroes. I am more focused to my heroes than game itself. To be honest I am very pleased with CO mission mechanics, especially with Adventure Packs and Comics. With more Comics and AP on its way, at least this game promise a future.

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Yes, because the game would actually be challenging and fun. Instead of a superhero IMVU.

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Like I keep saying...it's all bout the Ego stroking.

Always has been....
You're not wrong there.

And in truth, CO will never really cater to those types of people. I made an extremely long and involved post about why, during F2P beta, and I can't be bothered to go find it again, but essentially it boils down to this:

Those kinds of gamers will always be essentially dissatisfied with CO, because CO has no epeen factor. You can't raid for months to get the uber leet sword of dragon slaying +20, because there is no such item. And even if you could, gear doesn't have any effect on your appearance anyway, so you can't show it off.

The closest anything comes to that would be something like Therakiel's wings, or Destroyer's cape, and I have both of those, and I'm a pretty casual player. No boasting needed, no chest pounding, no ego stroking. Besides, they're tradeable.

CO has no epeen factor. And I, for one, am very glad of it.

CO's a game you play for fun, not bragging rights. And if you're not having fun, why are you playing it?

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GW2 really isn't a MMO either.

The other one is really really refined but its boilerplate 1st gen MMO gameplay. Its really well done but its going to disapoint people looking for a third generation MMO.

Never cared for GW, but yes I agree with you on the second point.

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I find the game challenging and fun now ....

or easy and social ...

or crazy fun with CC's

.... or

I need not go on.

the greatest thing about CO is the ability to do whatever, and at whatever level of play I feel is fun at the time.

...heck...this is a game I even like to do NOTHING in...jsut people watching in RC is fun for me.

.

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An additional difficulty called "Gamer" with improvements to the enemy groups there would be fine.


So everyone who don't wants to play on extra very hard for you is not a "gamer", or why would you
call it "gamer" ? Should "normal" then also be renamed to "looser" ? :rolleyes:

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CO has no epeen factor. And I, for one, am very glad of it.

Yes, because wanting a game to have a challenge instantly means EPEEN.

I guess I should call Hasbro and say Monopoly is too much of an EPEEN GAME.

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You're not wrong there.

And in truth, CO will never really cater to those types of people. I made an extremely long and involved post about why, during F2P beta, and I can't be bothered to go find it again, but essentially it boils down to this:

Those kinds of gamers will always be essentially dissatisfied with CO, because CO has no epeen factor. You can't raid for months to get the uber leet sword of dragon slaying +20, because there is no such item. And even if you could, gear doesn't have any effect on your appearance anyway, so you can't show it off.

The closest anything comes to that would be something like Therakiel's wings, or Destroyer's cape, and I have both of those, and I'm a pretty casual player. No boasting needed, no chest pounding, no ego stroking. Besides, they're tradeable.

CO has no epeen factor. And I, for one, am very glad of it.

I wish i could use this whole reply as a quote. I really wish i could.

This is it in a nutshell folks...this right there....

100%

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This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.champions-online.com/announcement.php?f=19&a=8) ~GM Tiyshen

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I wish i could use this whole reply as a quote. I really wish i could.

This is it in a nutshell folks...this right there....

100%

Lotta people are saying that about my posts these days.

I just call it like I see it. *bows*

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I wish i could use this whole reply as a quote. I really wish i could.

This is it in a nutshell folks...this right there....

100%

Yeah .. i also directly thought that much of that post is very sig-worthy ;)

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So I guess Cryptic making the Viper Group harder when the first adventure pack hit was just them being ego-maniacs?

mhm

Sure.

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And to clarify, I'm not saying they're -WRONG- for wanting to play that way. I did, for years, in EQ1. And I had fun doing it.

I'm just saying that CO isn't the game where you're gonna find it. This isn't your standard MMO with gear progression, raiding and top-tier guilds. This is a different beast altogether.

And for some of us, it's -exactly- the MMO we've been looking for for years.

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I've never played an MMO like that. I don't want an MMO like that. You're not listening to me.

Upgrading the enemies was something that Cryptic started to do. All I want is for them to continue doing that. Why is this such a big deal?

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Y'know, guys, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, maybe CO just isn't the game for some of you. It's okay, not every game can be for everyone - personally, I started off on WoW, and I might look back in one of these days if I'm feeling flush, but mostly it turns out to not be my cuppa. My roommate is a huge fan of EVE Online - I tried it, hated it. His wife loves the Sims, which leaves both of us cold.

If you aren't enjoying the experience of playing CO, feel free to find another game that suits you better. There are plenty of them out there now - it's not like the bad old days of original-flavor EverCrack, where this whole MMO fad was predicted to flame out soon and nobody else was even bothering. If you're LTS, by all means keep your account and check back in from time to time to see how you like it now - you must have liked it at some point, or you wouldn't have gone LTS. If you're Gold, play out the rest of your month, and if you're still dissatisfied, let your sub lapse.

Now, mind you, if you are enjoying it, and just have suggestions for improving it, by all means, suggest away. Heck, there's an entire subforum for that a little further down the menu! But if it's "boring", "too easy", and just disappoints you on all fronts - well, this is a game, a leisure-time activity. Why waste your leisure time on something you don't think is fun?

For myself, I enjoy this game immensely. It's fast-paced, it has interesting stories of which I get to be the hero, and it gives me a sense of agency often missing from my real life. (Ah, if I only had the power of Meteor or Death Metal, how much easier some parts of my life would be...) The graphics are good, too, and I really, really like the character creator. The casual aspects are great for me too - my real life is often demanding, and it's nice that I don't have to log a certain number of hours per day in order to accomplish anything. There are things I think could be improved, and I have made suggestions in the appropriate places - but I'm voting with my wallet, and my vote is in favor.

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So everyone who don't wants to play on extra very hard for you is not a "gamer", or why would you
call it "gamer" ? Should "normal" then also be renamed to "looser" ? :rolleyes:

Wowification is coming .... :D

In all seriousness, I can see that some sort of improvement in challenge for the next events would be nice.

For trash mobs, please don't bother. The trend should be to decrease the time sink trash mobs. If some, the concentration should be on boss encounters and make them more interesting in terms of team dynamics.

For the issue of block gods, just put some incremental enrage buff to the supervillain so if the players takes too long time, it will start debuffing defense and/or increasing damage.

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I've never played an MMO like that. I don't want an MMO like that. You're not listening to me.

Upgrading the enemies was something that Cryptic started to do. All I want is for them to continue doing that. Why is this such a big deal?

We've moved on from why I, personally, don't think you're the target demographic, Supreme. You don't want raids. I never said you did. But you do think the game's boring. The target demographic for this game doesn't really have anything to do with superheroes or comics or anything like that. I, myself, had never really read too many before playing it, outside of 2000AD, which is really that much of an American style suoerhero-comic to begin with.

No, my suspicion that you're no longer the target demographic for this game (If you ever were, I don't know) is purely based on your assertion that you find the game boring and dull. If you find it boring and dull, it seems obvious to me that it's probably not aimed at someone like you. You want things this game doesn't deliver. That's okay. I'd suggest, in order for you to have fun during your entertainment time, that you go find a game that -does- deliver the things you want. There's lots of games out there.

Who is the target demographic for this game?

People who like it.

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Yes, because the game would actually be challenging and fun. Instead of a superhero IMVU.

Ok, I don't do this often, and I almost didn't do it this time, but I'm gonna have to call BS on this.
If the Devs did add a higher difficulty setting that was make-your-fingers-bleed hard, and it gave the exact same rewards as Elite does now, these forums would fill up very quickly with statements like "I should be rewarded for my increased challenge." You and I both know it. And if the Devs did add new "uber" gear to this difficulty setting, once people got fully kitted out in that gear the complaints of "it's too easy" would start right back up.

It's a never ending cycle that thankfully Cryptic has not allowed itself to fall victim to. And I hope they never do.

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Ok, I don't do this often, and I almost didn't do it this time, but I'm gonna have to call BS on this.
If the Devs did add a higher difficulty setting that was make-your-fingers-bleed hard, and it gave the exact same rewards as Elite does now, these forums would fill up very quickly with statements like "I should be rewarded for my increased challenge." You and I both know it. And if the Devs did add new "uber" gear to this difficulty setting, once people got fully kitted out in that gear, the complaints of "it's too easy" would start right back up.

It's a never ending cycle that thankfully Cryptic has not allowed itself to fall victim to. And I hope they never do.

Yeah, back in the day we called it mudflation. Like you, I'm glad I haven't really seen much of it here. The SL blues are the only things that we've seen here that fall under that heading, and they've already admitted that they made a mistake making them that powerful.

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That's fine. But saying "IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT GTFO" doesn't help anyone. The game is boring for the sole reason that it's too easy. Just because my name isn't green and I am not on my knees in front of Tumerboy, doesn't make my opinion any less valid.

I'm not the only one that thinks this. I didn't make this topic.

And for the record. I did play the game since it came out. It was heading in good directions at the time. But the sudden need to pander to casual players just sunk the game. I have Devslayer. I have the pre-order bonuses. I know what I am talking about.

I was really hyped up when Serpent Lantern came out, as Cryptic understood the fact that the game wasn't really challenging. Then, as the money dwindled, the IMVU market looked the way to go, and here we are.

This game used to be going places. It would hit almost any crowd that came to it.

And for the record. There is a reason why Cryptic has difficulty levels. There's a reason why Elite gives certain better rewards. There's a reason why there are baddies that only show up with more people in the group. Cryptic understands that a game needs to have a certain bit of challenge before not being a real game any more.

And for the record. I don't want them to "Make it Harder" I, personally, want the game to require thought.

I don't want inflations for raids, or numbercrunching requirements. I don't want enemies jsut to hit harder. I certainly don't want the game to be mind-numbingly hard for more casuals. But more dynamic enemy groups would be wonderful. I want more of what VIPER is RIGHT NOW. They are by for the most interesting enemy group in the game because they are so interesting and challenging to fight.

This is ALL TALK however. Cryptic will never do it. It's too much manpower, without too much rewards, other than catering to a group that actually likes to have interesting encounters. Instead of playing as meatgrinders. Making more ATs and hats to sell to those people that are loose with thier wallets is just too profitable.

Why have such a fast-paced battle system with interesting powers and dynamic itemization and advantages to add to them and not use it. That right there is what frustrates me more than anything else! There is just so much untapped potential.

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Edit to remove because I'm just far too stunned, by whats above me to, say anything that isn't pure anger....I mean it I'm going to save myself from some kinda forum ban but just not saying a thing....nothing.

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Who is the target demographic for this game?

People who like it.


Um... What more needs to be said...

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That was really really cold.

I'll retract that.

More thought than it is now.

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Yeah, back in the day we called it mudflation. Like you, I'm glad I haven't really seen much of it here. The SL blues are the only things that we've seen here that fall under that heading, and they've already admitted that they made a mistake making them that powerful.

The SL Blues also have rendered all Nemesis Gear worthless, at least all Purple Secondaries.

Just recently i found a lvl 40 purple secondary .. +23 Int .. that was it .. totally crap compared to the +36-39 stuff
from SL. I also have some old character with +26 Nemesis items .. also worthless after the built in the Difficult Slider.

But of course everyone was also saying they only want the challenge before that was invented.

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How about this... Challenge yourself.

Instead of taking a synergistic model of might and mayhem, gimp your toon.

Take an Egoist (no powers from Telepathy), no Ego Storm or Collective Will and lets say Serephim for your passive. It's playable but very challenging.

You won't get elite equipment drops, but that's okay, you just want a challenge.

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The SL Blues also have rendered all Nemesis Gear worthless, at least all Purple Secondaries.

Just recently i found a lvl 40 purple secondary .. +23 Int .. that was it .. totally crap compared to the +36-39 stuff
from SL. I also have some old character with +26 Nemesis items .. also worthless after the built in the Difficult Slider.

But of course everyone was also saying they only want the challenge before that was invented.

Yeah, and when they introduced Elite and everything was bugged so it gave the same rewards as VH, no one ran it because....... it gave the same rewards as VH.

To some people, it's always about the rewards.

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How about this... Challenge yourself.


They don't want that .. because they need to show that they are better then the rest of the "non-gamers"
so they want it harder for everyone to show that they are the elite .. thats all in the end.

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How about this... Challenge yourself.

Instead of taking a synergistic model of might and mayhem, gimp your toon.

Take an Egoist (no powers from Telepathy), no Ego Storm or Collective Will and lets say Serephim for your passive. It's playable but very challenging.

You won't get elite equipment drops, but that's okay, you just want a challenge.

Well, they've changed the T1 telepathy power with mind opener. It can cause some serious damage, and with seraphim you have a ton of energy to spam the crap out of it. Making you a really nice DPSr. True that PvP isn't viable. But most PvE will quake in fear from that power that you got when you started your character.

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They don't want that .. because they need to show that they are better then the rest of the "non-gamers"
so they want it harder for everyone to show that they are the elite .. thats all in the end.

Once more from the top.

Ego Stroking.

Champs has absolutely no ego stroking at all.

I'd rather not be a 'gamer' if it means that I can be social, and creative, with other players that are fun to quest with.

.....and now I'm out of this thread, before my silly casual head explodes. >_<

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At least one of those games mentioned doesn't break the mold when it comes to MMO's, the other one I don't even know about. Point in fact one of those games is exactly like all the other games with missions I've played. Run here. Kill him. Get that. Go back to the contact.

Of course, it's debatable whether Bioware will actually deliver, but everything they are implying (and Bioware's track record) suggests that their main focus is toward epic storytelling. It also lets you define your own gameplay experience. For example, WoW or CO would say: "Go kill this guy and come back."

SWTOR is claiming to say: "The mission will be to kill the guy. You go to do it and, just before you land the killing blow, you realize the only reason you were asked to kill him is because he has information about your boss that exposes him as a corrupt Dbag. You then decide whether or not to kill him anyway, kill him and THEN blackmail your boss, or spare him and lie to your boss... or spare him and go to war with your boss. Each choice you make effects the rest of the quest line."

Do you see the difference there? Maybe the mold isn't completely shattered, but one takes it to a whole other level of immersion... at least based on what they are claiming.

If it turns out Bioware doesn't deliver on this sort of promise, I'll be very let down.

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Of course, it's debatable whether Bioware will actually deliver, but everything they are implying (and Bioware's track record) suggests that their main focus is toward epic storytelling. It also lets you define your own gameplay experience. For example, WoW or CO would say: "Go kill this guy and come back."

SWTOR is claiming to say: "The mission will be to kill the guy. You go to do it and, just before you land the killing blow, you realize the only reason you were asked to kill him is because he has information about your boss that exposes him as a corrupt Dbag. You then decide whether or not to kill him anyway, kill him and THEN blackmail your boss, or spare him and lie to your boss... or spare him and go to war with your boss. Each choice you make effects the rest of the quest line."

Do you see the difference there? Maybe the mold isn't completely shattered, but one takes it to a whole other level of immersion... at least based on what they are claiming.

If it turns out Bioware doesn't deliver on this sort of promise, I'll be very let down.

I know what they are claiming. That level of Immersion is nothing new, that's exactly how it was in ME2.

How's the saying go, the first thing about fight club is don't talk about fight club?

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I have no doubt that BioWare will stay true to form. They do what they do and they do it well although you have to be careful that you don't get sucked in by the BioWare Illustion of Choice(tm), rather than -actual- game-changing choice.

All I meant was that once you strip that away, you're still left with what?

Yup, verb number noun.

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How about this... Challenge yourself.

Instead of taking a synergistic model of might and mayhem, gimp your toon.

Take an Egoist (no powers from Telepathy), no Ego Storm or Collective Will and lets say Serephim for your passive. It's playable but very challenging.

You won't get elite equipment drops, but that's okay, you just want a challenge.

Building a character is part of the game. It should not be required to intentionally gimp a character to find a challenge. Its far more satisfying to build which looks like a top-notch character and then get kicked in the teeth than it is to try your hardest to find a build gimped enough to make the game actually hard.

Elite does not have improved drops relative to very hard (or at least that's my understanding, i haven't actually played on VH). I still play nothing but elite (where available). I'm not going to say I don't like the improved rewards for higher difficulty, but they're *not* why i play on higher difficulty. I set my difficulty to elite *during the tutorial* and *never change it*.

(Aside: Given how easy this game is, i don't see why anyone would even care about 'elite gear' that's slightly better than the next tier down gear unless they were a hardcore PvPer... People accuse people wanting a game that's actually hard of wanting epeen to lord over other people, but clearly they're the one who gets some sort of epeen satisfaction out of having elite gear or otherwise they wouldn't care at all. You can play the entire game right now, on elite, with nothing but quest rewards - did it with an AT while i was still silver because i *didn't even have access to elite gear* i could acquire myself. The only people in this discussion who seem to care about personal epeen are the people who seem to fear they would lose it if the hardest difficulty was unbeatable to them.)

Challenge is what makes games interesting to a number of people. For me, who's still experimenting with freeform, the only challenge right now is tweaking builds to be better while staying in concept - and the only real incentive to that is arbitrary numbers since i quickly exceeded the threshold of noticeable performance increases.

I'm not arguing Normal should be changed. I'm not opposed to casual players having an accessible mode for all content. I am opposed to a difficulty slider that is essentially meaningless.

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....
Elite does not have improved drops relative to very hard (or at least that's my understanding, i haven't actually played on VH). I still play nothing but elite (where available). I'm not going to say I don't like the improved rewards for higher difficulty, but they're *not* why i play on higher difficulty. I set my difficulty to elite *during the tutorial* and *never change it*....
Just claryfing
Elite does get better gear than Very Hard.

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Just claryfing
Elite does get better gear than Very Hard.

Very good. I've heard people say they were the same. Honestly, doesn't make a bit of difference to me...

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Building a character is part of the game. It should not be required to intentionally gimp a character to find a challenge. Its far more satisfying to build what looks like a top-notch character and then get kicked in the teeth than it is to try your hardest to find a build gimped enough to make the game actually hard.

I don't agree with this. It's much more satisfying to get your teeth knocked in because you did something silly, like not take out the guy casting summons that are hitting you in the face really hard, than number-crunch to the perfect build. Almost any build is viable, so it would be much more satisfying to be able to get through an encounter due to being on your toes. Rather than having the better build.

Much like the PnP game Champs is based off of.

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Very good. I've heard people say they were the same. Honestly, doesn't make a bit of difference to me...

It got patched semi-recently.

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Before the difficult sliders blue secondarys had +20 .. that was all .. Purple from Nemesis had +26 and that
was good at that time .. now elite has +36 .. its quite a difference.

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I don't agree with this. It's much more satisfying to get your teeth knocked in because you did something silly, like not take out the guy casting summons that are hitting you in the face really hard, than number-crunch to the perfect build. Almost any build is viable, so it would be much more satisfying to be able to get through an encounter due to being on your toes. Rather than having the better build.


Much like the PnP game Champs is based off of.

I'm going to agree with you in part. Decisions you make in-game are also important.

However, build has to be part of the equation or it will always be possible to make a build that does enough damage to just not care about the interesting tactical decisions. Ie, build sets a bar the enemies are either up to or not. If the enemies are up to it, then they can force you to have to make interesting decisions.

If the answer to good builds is enemies apply debuffs (doesn't happen nearly often enough) and mitigate player defenses with attacks instead of having bigger numbers, well, that could only be for the better.

(If you really wanted a pnp champions feel, you'd end up defining about 7-8 total attacks that could be variously skinned. Lets see, single target, cone AoE, PBAoE Sphere, Cylinder, Sphere, maybe some range variations of those. Each type of attack would deal the same base damage with the same SS scaling no matter what type of damage it was, throw in a special effect for each damage type on top of that - like lightning's charged ions - to make the damage types somewhat distinct. Then every power is virtually identical to other powers of its type, and the difference is mostly in the skin. Combined with emanation points you'd get quite a bit of customization, but each character would only really have ~7-8 attack choices, and probably a smaller handful of defense choices with different skins).

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Well that's why the enemies would be more dynamic, rather than the stock they are now. Some builds would have a tougher time with Frost Demon group A, but an easier time with Group B.

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hate to tell you OP but CO is just NOT THE GAME FOR YOU. It is geared 110% towards the casual player. And the creative player. Only PVP requires the hard core building you seem to want forced upon the general masses. Max Dif does add plenty to the game. If you played real concept characters instead of min maxxed meta gamed trash youd probably appreciate this game ALOT MORE.

Even a min maxxed toon if truly built within concept will feel fun no matter what. I hate to tell you but what CO really succeeds in far more then COX the game I tend to feel outshines CO in most categories, is in the fact that if you build to be a Super Man, then you will FEEL like one.

Superman and his equals DO NOT FACE REAL THREATS EVER! No matter what some like to think of, the fact is the real standard of the icon of such power is one who is pretty much the very epitome of god moding. Superman is for example the kind of being who could literally punch out god if he had to and not be threatened for one second doing it.

Dont ask them to destroy that aspect of CO. Challenge here IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT, if you want to face the challenge as a mortal man try making a cyclops build. No self heals is a very natural part of alot of real concept builds that are alot of fun and make for ALOT of CHALLENGE. I dont run my superman when I want to feel like anything can rival me I play my Batman style characters.Batman is after all about tactical actions and overcoming seemingly unbeatable foes with his planning. Superman could but never has to and thats the point.

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And if the game is too hard, it becomes rather unfun.

Dieing so many times on my soldier, who I did get to 40. My only 40... but my will to quest has pretty much been broken because of it.

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Superman and his equals DO NOT FACE REAL THREATS EVER! No matter what some like to think of, the fact is the real standard of the icon of such power is one who is pretty much the very epitome of god moding. Superman is for example the kind of being who could literally punch out god if he had to and not be threatened for one second doing it.

Well, it's not like Superman hasn't DIED before.


Dont ask them to destroy that aspect of CO. Challenge here IS WHAT YOU MAKE OF IT, if you want to face the challenge as a mortal man try making a cyclops build. No self heals is a very natural part of alot of real concept builds that are alot of fun and make for ALOT of CHALLENGE.

He's just asking to add another difficulty level. Whether or not you agree with it, it's not like it would destroy anything. You can stay on Normal all day and night.

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I'll say it again.

Why is it wrong to have a fun casual game?

Why are casuals bad people?

Why is fun a bad word?

No really...why....someone tell me.

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I'll say it again.

Why is it wrong to have a fun casual game?

Why are casuals bad people?

Why is fun a bad word?

No really...why....someone tell me.

I always love the arguments in other games like :
"We have earned those items because we worked hard for it"

*sigh*

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I'll say it again.

Why is it wrong to have a fun casual game?

Why are casuals bad people?

Why is fun a bad word?

No really...why....someone tell me.

Some of us don't find a cakewalk fun. Our definitions of fun differ considerably.

Some of us want the option for something other than a cakewalk. We're not forcing you to play it, we want to be able to choose it.

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I thought you left this topic.

Regardless. You can keep on being a casual player, but it doesn't hurt to ask for something for people that like the game's mechanics, but wish it would challenge them a bit more.


I always love the arguments in other games like :
"We have earned those items because we worked hard for it"

*sigh*

I don't know anyone in this topic that said that other than the people trying to demean others by going EGOSTROKERLOL.

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Guild Wars 2, pretty much what MMOs really should strive for.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/

It doesn't have anything of what you listed.

So what does it have? What are the quests like? Go into the forest and think real hard for a while? Or does it not have quests?

How is Guildwars 2 not a MMO?

I think you need to do a bit more reading up on GW2 before you state those facts 1. its nothing like GW and 2. its modeled off similar to WoW this time around. no more linear.

Oh? What model are they using? Are they doing the free-to-play thing and actually having a social world instead of just social towns?

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So what does it have? What are the quests like? Go into the forest and think real hard for a while? Or does it not have quests?

Oh? What model are they using? Are they doing the free-to-play thing and actually having a social world instead of just social towns?

I provided a link. If you're genuinely curious, please click it.

They don't have quests. Instead they have a dynamic event system which is pretty complex and I won't go into.
They are going Buy to Play (like most games, you buy it, you can play forever) with a cash shop.
Large persistant world.

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I'll say it again.

Why is it wrong to have a fun casual game?

Why are casuals bad people?

Why is fun a bad word?

No really...why....someone tell me.
And why is it bad to suggest that if you're not having fun doing something, you do something else? I didn't enjoy EVE Online, so I stopped playing it. WoW became more of a chore than fun, so I took a break - like I said, I'll probably go back one day when I'm feeling like I can spare the monies. I tried CoX, didn't care for the interface. That doesn't mean the CoX interface is "bad", nor that those who prefer it over CO are having badwrongfun - it just means that the game isn't to my taste. CO, on the other tentacle, is to my taste. To quote someone from another thread, I always close the game down in a better mood than I was in when I started it up.

If you're playing CO, and you're not enjoying it, I suggest that perhaps a break is in order. No, I'm NOT saying "GTFO", I'm asking why do something in your leisure time that isn't fun for you?

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If you're having fun with the game's mechanics but not with the game's content. It's not a bad thing to ask for something more. Just like it's not bad to like it as-is.

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I dunno, sticking around for something you don't enjoy/are bored by just seems like masochism to me. But hey, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks.

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I actually am not playing it right now. Haven't for a few months until they fix some issues. I am finding the forums a lot more fun.

Just because you're having fun with something doesn't mean it can't be improved either.

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Then why all the condescension towards 'casual' players? Really i think half of us wouldn't get our backs up so much if we had been burned so badly by some gamers that seek to call folks who don't play hardcore 'stupid' , 'lazy', and 'bad'. Perhaps it'snot said directly but the implication is there.

I play on easy...I'm a bad player.

It's fine to ask for harder difficulty, and actually that's a good suggestion, and a logical thing for the game to do.

It's the implication that playing on that difficulty is for 'better' players, and those of us who Costume, RP, and are socialise are complete morons.

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Joy, dear, you meant "condescension" :)

*runs away*

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I don't know. I do dew a lot when the temperature outside is warmer than the inside of my body.

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Joy, dear, you meant "condescension" :)

*runs away*


Hehe thanks!

*also runs away*

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Except you've been complaining about the mechanics, too.

So, you just enjoy hanging out in the forums and complaining about things that are never going to change because they suit the majority of the players (or, with some of your examples, because AI just isn't that advanced yet). This is your favorite part of the game. Got it. Carry on.

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Derp, enemy skillsets and AI aren't game mechanics.

By the way, they don't suit the majority of players. They may suit some forums posters, but you have no idea if they suit the majority of players. This wouldn't have been brought up by the developers if that was the case way back when sliders were introduced or the change to the Viper enemy group.

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I provided a link. If you're genuinely curious, please click it.

They don't have quests. Instead they have a dynamic event system which is pretty complex and I won't go into.
They are going Buy to Play (like most games, you buy it, you can play forever) with a cash shop.
Large persistant world.

Yes, was interested in it.

So I clicked the link. It sounds interesting but it raises some questions for me. First, will there always be tons of these dynamic events? Won't they feel forced if they have to provide these events constantly? It seems like they want it to be transparent, but if every place is always constantly in danger...?

Now, of course, in an MMO, every place is always in danger. Aliens in the north, gangs in the west, robots to the east... Millennium City is screwed. But I don't think masking this with "events" would really make it any different.

Second, they use a town being attacked by centaurs as an example. Isn't it basically the same thing? Go there, kill centaurs, collect your reward afterwards? It's like they're giving you quests without actually saying it. It still boils down to go there, kill stuff, get loot, but with a shiny new paint job.

You've piqued my interest with this thing, but I'm skeptical about how it's going to feel in the game. I'll probably pick it up and check it out. Likely that the generic fantasy graphics will bore me, but it might be fun.

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Derp, the very existence of mission chains is a game mechanic, and a pretty basic one - and you've b!tched about that too.

My point is that this seems to be what you enjoy. Not playing the game, complaining about it. And that's okay. Fun is where you find it. It's stopped being fun for me, so I think I'm going to pretty much stay out of this thread, unless the opportunity to make a smart-alec comment comes up (because that's something I think is fun). Enjoy!

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Yes, was interested in it.

So I clicked the link. It sounds interesting but it raises some questions for me. First, will there always be tons of these dynamic events? Won't they feel forced if they have to provide these events constantly? It seems like they want it to be transparent, but if every place is always constantly in danger...?

Now, of course, in an MMO, every place is always in danger. Aliens in the north, gangs in the west, robots to the east... Millennium City is screwed. But I don't think masking this with "events" would really make it any different.

Second, they use a town being attacked by centaurs as an example. Isn't it basically the same thing? Go there, kill centaurs, collect your reward afterwards? It's like they're giving you quests without actually saying it. It still boils down to go there, kill stuff, get loot, but with a shiny new paint job.

You've piqued my interest with this thing, but I'm skeptical about how it's going to feel in the game. I'll probably pick it up and check it out. Likely that the generic fantasy graphics will bore me, but it might be fun.

It's really hard to explain. The best way is to show you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ttfOuxB6Gc

There are tons of videos around. Thousands of articles.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/forum/news-interviews-articles-f32.html

The graphics are some of the best parts really. Everything is a painterly style, much like how CO is a comic book style.

I could go all day talking about Guild Wars 2. Really, it's shaping up to be one of the better MMO games, if not PC games around.

Honestly, unlike Champions or other MMOs, you don't need a membership to get the full effect. Even if you end up not enjoying it. You still have the full entire game along with Champions' subscription.

Derp, the very existence of mission chains is a game mechanic, and a pretty basic one - and you've b!tched about that too.

I never complained about mission chains. If I did than I misspoke. I have only really been talking about enemy AIs and skillsets. Aside from that, mission chains have nothing to do with difficulty of the game.

I think it was Lohr and others talking about mission chains.

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GW2 can't come too soon. I think that's something both Supreme and I agree on. It does look very cool.

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I don't like the cutscenes.

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GW2 can't come too soon. I think that's something both Supreme and I agree on. It does look very cool.

What also makes me interestet in GW2 is, that it indeed looks like a more "casual" game. No raiding and also
you don't need to grind dungeons for the best items if you don't like it.

I can already see the hardcore gamers cry now shortly after release :D

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I thought you left this topic.

Regardless. You can keep on being a casual player, but it doesn't hurt to ask for something for people that like the game's mechanics, but wish it would challenge them a bit more.




I don't know anyone in this topic that said that other than the people trying to demean others by going EGOSTROKERLOL.

the fact is with higher difficulty would come to many who run it an expectation of a higher reward. Those who believe in the casual way of the game know that if such powerful items exist hard core players will grind them out and then use them to establish a caste of power gaming that will bring on a power creep issue as is common in games like say WoW.

Currently elite dif is actually very challenging to a large spectrum of players if not even outright impossible for alot of pure AT players of a casual sort. Meanwhile to those most devoted to the min maxxing superman attitude can be just that as well, a being with no equals and few even minor challenges. Most agree those get dull fast and hurt the over all love of the game.

While many here seem to say just like me, challenge yourself through fun concept builds that haave limitations. Its not at all a bad feature to put the actual feeling of challenge on the player and how they make thier character. And also kind of points out why meta gaming in PnP is so heavily discouraged. It ruins the fun of the game for alot of others. So why should there be any dif setting that makes min maxxing THE STANDARD?

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I have seen all the footage, and I don't consdier GW2 a MMO.\
I will be waiting for the expansion with the Bird dog, Deer man tengu things as a playable race though :)


Anyway, These threads always go the same way, I don't see very much point in them.

Personaly I don't think I will ever see a day when I can't use the Boilerplate Build.


Energy Builder
1 Single Target Attack
1 AoE
12 Buffs/Debuffs


Cryptic isn't capable of that kind of gameplay anymore, or those people remained with NCsoft.

I mean EVERY, SINGLE ENCOUNTER in Champions Online is just a simple DPS::TTL ratio.

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Well regarding Guild Wars 2, events or not, judging by that video, they're still your everyday average quests. Go here, do this, get this many of this, then return to there. Just with a new name.

The graphics look generic to me. Nice, but generic.

Doubt it'll be a day-one buy for me.

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Well regarding Guild Wars 2, events or not, judging by that video, they're still your everyday average quests. Go here, do this, get this many of this, then return to there. Just with a new name.

The graphics look generic to me. Nice, but generic.

Doubt it'll be a day-one buy for me.

But it has bird people (someday... maybe :( )!!!!!1 (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/gw/images/5/56/Quetzal_Dark.jpg)

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Many ATs need to team to play through some portions of the game. Even some players with freeform builds need help with some portions of the game.

So it's not that the game is too easy; the issue is that the game has combos that are too easy to exploit.

Such is the price of freedom, it seems.

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Well regarding Guild Wars 2, events or not, judging by that video, they're still your everyday average quests. Go here, do this, get this many of this, then return to there. Just with a new name.

The graphics look generic to me. Nice, but generic.

Doubt it'll be a day-one buy for me.

You never "return to there". You just get your reward when the event is over. You roam around the country side and stuff is happening. Unlike in Champions where nothing is happening and you talk to a guy "kill 12 robots" when all the robots are doing is sitting there minding thier own business. When you finish an event, you actually stopped the raid of centuars, and the townspeople thank you. Unlike culling a herd of 12 centaurs in a field.


It's more akin to the open world quests, than the regular quests.

And I don't know how the graphics are "generic". But then again, I have no idea what the means anyhow.

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I am looking forward to GW2 also. If they are able to accomplish their goals, it will be a very interesting play experience.

But as long as it still in production, I think it may be best to refrain from using it in comparisons.

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the fact is with higher difficulty would come to many who run it an expectation of a higher reward. Those who believe in the casual way of the game know that if such powerful items exist hard core players will grind them out and then use them to establish a caste of power gaming that will bring on a power creep issue as is common in games like say WoW.

Currently elite dif is actually very challenging to a large spectrum of players if not even outright impossible for alot of pure AT players of a casual sort. Meanwhile to those most devoted to the min maxxing superman attitude can be just that as well, a being with no equals and few even minor challenges. Most agree those get dull fast and hurt the over all love of the game.

While many here seem to say just like me, challenge yourself through fun concept builds that haave limitations. Its not at all a bad feature to put the actual feeling of challenge on the player and how they make thier character. And also kind of points out why meta gaming in PnP is so heavily discouraged. It ruins the fun of the game for alot of others. So why should there be any dif setting that makes min maxxing THE STANDARD?

Because soloing elite content on my AT characters and Concept toons built around severe limitations is all too often lacking in challenge.

If the argument was that the game is lacking in challenge for only the most severely min/maxed characters it might be easier to argue against additional difficulty because then only a tiny percentage of players/characters would benefit from the expenditure of dev resources to produce it.

But, as it stands, the game's content can be trivial to builds purposefully designed to avoid min/maxing. Characters built around common, if not ubiquitous, comic book themes can steamroll the content.

The real question is, and hasnt been answered yet, if characters are intended to be designed using the powers available, then why shouldnt the game include options to provide as many potential paying customers as possible the ability to enjoy it ?

If how I play my character, perhaps in a different difficulty setting than another player, in a situation where I am not playing with that other player, never even seeing him (or him me), never influencing his game play, never affecting his gameplay, ruins the game for him, then he needs to look long and hard at himself. If the fun I derive from a game I paid for is ruined because someone else enjoys it differently than I do, then I am the one with a problem, not them.

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You never "return to there". You just get your reward when the event is over. You roam around the country side and stuff is happening. Unlike in Champions where nothing is happening and you talk to a guy "kill 12 robots" when all the robots are doing is sitting there minding thier own business. When you finish an event, you actually stopped the raid of centuars, and the townspeople thank you. Unlike culling a herd of 12 centaurs in a field.


It's more akin to the open world quests, than the regular quests.

And I don't know how the graphics are "generic". But then again, I have no idea what the means anyhow.

It's personal taste. By generic I mean standard, trying to look realistic. Nothing distinguishing about it. Take the characters out of the picture and show me the landscape, and I can't tell you what game it is. World of ********, on the other hand, has a pretty distinct style. Exaggerated and leaning toward the cartoony side, not trying to make everything look realistic.

As far as the quest goes, you still had a list of stuff. Go here, collect tools, go there, gather X metals (X being literal, since everyone else is doing the same), return them to the forge. It's the same thing, without a "contact".

I got the feeling too that they were like the open missions. But saying that there isn't any quests is pretty misleading.

Now, one thing I'm curious about. Is there a way to "miss" any of the events, or do they just keep looping over and over? Do you get to go back to areas where you've previously run the events and be able to do them again, or do you progress through the story in a linear fashion (not implying that the events are linear, I can see people jumping on me about that)?

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It's personal taste. By generic I mean standard, trying to look realistic. Nothing distinguishing about it. Take the characters out of the picture and show me the landscape, and I can't tell you what game it is. World of ********, on the other hand, has a pretty distinct style. Exaggerated and leaning toward the cartoony side, not trying to make everything look realistic.

As far as the quest goes, you still had a list of stuff. Go here, collect tools, go there, gather X metals (X being literal, since everyone else is doing the same), return them to the forge. It's the same thing, without a "contact".

I got the feeling too that they were like the open missions. But saying that there isn't any quests is pretty misleading.

Now, one thing I'm curious about. Is there a way to "miss" any of the events, or do they just keep looping over and over? Do you get to go back to areas where you've previously run the events and be able to do them again, or do you progress through the story in a linear fashion (not implying that the events are linear, I can see people jumping on me about that)?

I can't speak GW2, but the ideal way to do this would be to generate RANDOM events with several hundred variables so exact repeats rarely happen. This way every playthrough is unique.

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It's personal taste. By generic I mean standard, trying to look realistic. Nothing distinguishing about it. Take the characters out of the picture and show me the landscape, and I can't tell you what game it is. World of ********, on the other hand, has a pretty distinct style. Exaggerated and leaning toward the cartoony side, not trying to make everything look realistic.

As far as the quest goes, you still had a list of stuff. Go here, collect tools, go there, gather X metals (X being literal, since everyone else is doing the same), return them to the forge. It's the same thing, without a "contact".

I got the feeling too that they were like the open missions. But saying that there isn't any quests is pretty misleading.

Now, one thing I'm curious about. Is there a way to "miss" any of the events, or do they just keep looping over and over? Do you get to go back to areas where you've previously run the events and be able to do them again, or do you progress through the story in a linear fashion (not implying that the events are linear, I can see people jumping on me about that)?

Supposedly the game will generate new events based on how previous events played out. In the example of the centaurs raiding the village, if the players dont stop them the village might not be there later. Instead you might find refugees from that village rebuilding elsewhere while the centaurs set up operations where the old village was. Meanwhile some giants that didnt really care about peaceful villagers near their mountains might take offense at warliek centaurs in their territory and go on a rampage.

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Supposedly the game will generate new events based on how previous events played out. In the example of the centaurs raiding the village, if the players dont stop them the village might not be there later. Instead you might find refugees from that village rebuilding elsewhere while the centaurs set up operations where the old village was. Meanwhile some giants that didnt really care about peaceful villagers near their mountains might take offense at warliek centaurs in their territory and go on a rampage.

So, there's really no chance that you can go through and complete every single event? Say I buy the game a month after release, I won't get to do anything that happened the first month?

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So, there's really no chance that you can go through and complete every single event? Say I buy the game a month after release, I won't get to do anything that happened the first month?

Assuming it really is an evolving world model, then no. Everything happens exactly once and has persistent consequences.

Actually, I really like that idea. Player-generated history and content is *awesome*.

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So, there's really no chance that you can go through and complete every single event? Say I buy the game a month after release, I won't get to do anything that happened the first month?

The basic idea, from what I understand, is that no one could ever hope to experience everything because the content is not intended to be finite. The idea is that no matter how many characters you create and how much you play you will find new and interesting things to do.

I will admit to being a bit of a GW fanboy, but I have my doubts about their ability to pull this off completely. Though even if its not 100% it will be a nice change of pace (IMO) from traditional static world content.

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Assuming it really is an evolving world model, then no. Everything happens exactly once and has persistent consequences.
Really tough to make a game like that playable. It may be their objective, but I have doubts about their ability to achieve that objective.

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the fact is with higher difficulty would come to many who run it an expectation of a higher reward. Those who believe in the casual way of the game know that if such powerful items exist hard core players will grind them out and then use them to establish a caste of power gaming that will bring on a power creep issue as is common in games like say WoW.

So? How does hardcore grinding affect casual gameplay? As long as base difficulty doesn't change there's really no problem. Even in WoW you can play casually, collect decent gear, and play through everything. You may not be able to play through everything on elite, but you can play through everything.

Currently elite dif is actually very challenging to a large spectrum of players if not even outright impossible for alot of pure AT players of a casual sort. Meanwhile to those most devoted to the min maxxing superman attitude can be just that as well, a being with no equals and few even minor challenges. Most agree those get dull fast and hurt the over all love of the game.

I don't see where the problem lies. If "Very Hard" and up get harder how does that affect casual players who play "Normal" and "Hard." The two aren't competing, and are not mutually exclusive.

While many here seem to say just like me, challenge yourself through fun concept builds that haave limitations. Its not at all a bad feature to put the actual feeling of challenge on the player and how they make thier character. And also kind of points out why meta gaming in PnP is so heavily discouraged. It ruins the fun of the game for alot of others. So why should there be any dif setting that makes min maxxing THE STANDARD?

Self imposed challenges already exist, and are constantly used, like leveling to 40 in the tutorial or Canada crisis. Self imposed challenges also exist with concept characters as well, like using a martial artist or gadgeteer rather than an all around the board character. In fact most of the top tier characters are concept characters, they're just well thought out concept characters.

But at the end of the day there's a difference between a self imposed challenge and a challenging game. Part of the fun is being able to squeeze every ounce of performance out of a thing, like drag racing, 40 yard dashes, overclocking/benchmarking, etc. but the issue with CO is that you don't even have to go anywhere near that far. With a decent build there is almost no challenge at all. We're not talking about the top of the top builds. When the system allows you to reach 10k HP with 90% defenses and a self heal with no exploiting or min-maxing or anything considered "unfair," but there is nothing in the PvE game that can come even close to being a threat to that something is off. Same goes for the offensive game - a basic AT can steamroll through a good amount of content.

And that's ok, but there should be an option for increased challenge based on the system provided as well.

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The basic idea, from what I understand, is that no one could ever hope to experience everything because the content is not intended to be finite. The idea is that no matter how many characters you create and how much you play you will find new and interesting things to do.

I will admit to being a bit of a GW fanboy, but I have my doubts about their ability to pull this off completely.

Really tough to make a game like that playable. It may be their objective, but I have doubts about their ability to achieve that objective.

That's interesting, but I'll echo what both of you said. Seems like a hell of a lot of work to pull off. Is there just one server or is this going to go on with several servers?

I wonder if their cash flow will allow for unlimited, constant content creation all the time... or if things will probably cycle in and out (hey look over there, the guys that were wiped out by centaurs are back, and now they're being attacked by centaurs again! you know what they say about history...).

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Assuming it really is an evolving world model, then no. Everything happens exactly once and has persistent consequences.

Actually, I really like that idea. Player-generated history and content is *awesome*.

It sounds awesome, but I just don't see this happening. It's just too cool, and I can't imagine an engine or dev team that would be able to keep up with player demands.

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Really tough to make a game like that playable. It may be their objective, but I have doubts about their ability to achieve that objective.

S'my feelings on both GW2 and TOR at this point, honestly. They make a lot of great promises. I'm kirbing (sorry, been reading a lot of 40k blogjunk recently - curbing!) my enthusiasm at a low simmer until they can provide a bit more than 'talk' at this point.

Still excited for both games, though, don't get me wrong - they're both on my 'Instant Buy' list when they come out no matter what they go with. I'm just not gonna go in expecting a whole lot more than the usual bump and grind.

I still play GW1 on occasion. I occasionally go back and play KotOR1 and 2. I also play a few 'standard' MMOs.

:P The usual bump and grind ain't a bad thang. Doesn't have to be OMGEPICLYGROUNDBREAKING shiny new epic nonstandard all day every day, as long as at it's core it's a good game.

I mean, look at EVE.

(DISCLAIMER: My one-sentence summation of my feelings on EVE - it's a great, semi-realistic space game. The reality however is that space is freakin' boring for some people. Yo.)

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It sounds awesome, but I just don't see this happening. It's just too cool, and I can't imagine an engine or dev team that would be able to keep up with player demands.

The key is to *automate it* so that the world creates *emergent behavior*. Ie, if Hill Giants *hate* aggressive natives, but tolerate peaceful natives (to keep with the example given), and the Hill Giants have programmed response reactions, then they might *automatically* start rampaging when the wilely horse nomads move in whereas they were perfectly peaceful when the farming village was there.

Dwarf Fortress is a game with amazing emergent gameplay if you can get past the graphics. You should check out some of the cool stuff that *just happens* in it. (You don't even need to play, just check out Legends mode.. ok, it can be pretty labrythine to use, but there are good examples of epic stories coming out of just looking at the history of characters in legends mode. Cacame is a good example).

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Sounds good on paper but you also can't automate it to much or you open the door for exploits

Where the goal is to abuse the system to generate the biggest baddies and loot. Instead of letting it happen naturally

"No don't save the village. The reward is weak. Let the centaurs ravage it. that will trigger the giants letting us farm them till the dragons show up. And then its phat city for loots and xp"

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And again, it's like I'm not even here. :(

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Sounds good on paper but you also can't automate it to much or you open the door for exploits

Where the goal is to abuse the system to generate the biggest baddies and loot. Instead of letting it happen naturally

"No don't save the village. The reward is weak. Let the centaurs ravage it. that will trigger the giants letting us farm them till the dragons show up. And then its phat city for loots and xp"

Yeah, except when its an MMO you're depending on the complicity of the entire population base. It just takes one guy wanting to be a hero to derail those plans.

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SWTOR and GW2 are going to be interesting to watch. I'm holding off on pre-ordeirng on either of them for a little while. All the buildup and hype is almost cosmic in origin.

Will these games be the most perfect MMOs ever made ever?

It'll be fun to watch, from the sidelines, and see how it all goes down.

...really I'm not being sarcastic here. These MMOs are being touted as everything but the second coming...so it will be fascinating to observe reactions as they are released.

:cool:

I'm waiting for Skyrim and Saint's Row the Third.

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I wonder if their cash flow will allow for unlimited, constant content creation all the time... or if things will probably cycle in and out (hey look over there, the guys that were wiped out by centaurs are back, and now they're being attacked by centaurs again! you know what they say about history...).

It doesn't loop, but both states have an end state.

Say you save the village from the centuars, then the villiage is at the "Best state" however the centuars will raid again. If they finally succeed, then they will trigger bad state 1, then if they continue to succeed, bad state 2. etc. Think of it like a tug of war. Eventually the dynamic event will stop at the "worst state" and players can try and take it back to the "best state". The "Best state" will, for what we've been told. give the best rewards. Such a merchants that will sell you items at a much lower price.

This isn't just theory-crafting. They have already shown this off in action.

Really, really. There's just TONS of info out there on what happens with GW2. You really need to read up on it. It's great stuff!

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[QUOTE=Smackwell]

It doesn't loop, but both states have an end state.

Say you save the village from the centuars, then the villiage is at the "Best state" however the centuars will raid again. If they finally succeed, then they will trigger bad state 1, then if they continue to succeed, bad state 2. etc. Think of it like a tug of war. Eventually the dynamic event will stop at the "worst state" and players can try and take it back to the "best state".

This isn't just theory-crafting. They have already shown this off in action.

Really, really. There's just TONS of info out there on what happens with GW2. You really need to read up on it. It's great stuff!

We had this in Tabula Rasa too. Granted it wasn't all that well fleshed out in TR other than Good State = Quests/shops/etc, Bad State = kill the NPCs until you win.

It was fun for a little bit but it generated either non-stop whining ("OMG, I just want to log on and do mah questz") when it was working well or non-stop whining when it wasn't. ("This is way too easy, I just soloed an entire base-retake")

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Well, that's what is great about having a much larger world with wide varieties of events. If you find an area too hard or too easy, simply move on.

Worst case scenario, you just go to the human city and find the dynamic event where you chase bunnies.

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This perhaps necessitates a reminder of the Law of Inevitability towards why standard MMORPG design (EQ-style) is always going to be broken.

EQ-style design is balanced by Effort Sinks. Effort Sinks are really cool for the first, maybe, 2 hours of a game's sum total existence. After that Inevitability sets in and the people with more time and/or efficiency hurdle those sinks and we end up with class (social) warfare.

It ruins PvP because things become unbalanced. It ruins PvE (moreso in open-world designs) because the upper class can horde resources to destroy economies or camp spawns.

That's on top of the class warfare occurring, and on top of the unending whining by the upper class of how everything is so boring and easy and that the game is doomed.

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Well, that's what is great about having a much larger world with wide varieties of events. If you find an area too hard or too easy, simply move on.

Worst case scenario, you just go to the human city and find the dynamic event where you chase bunnies.

It's impossible to have enough content. If their model is based on having enough content to appease everyone it will fall over pretty quickly.

Unless they've created an AI that generates new content for them. I'm actually working on that one myself for my MUD.

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Good thing with PvP you start off at max level with the best gear in GW1 and GW2.


It's impossible to have enough content. If their model is based on having enough content to appease everyone it will fall over pretty quickly.

Unless they've created an AI that generates new content for them. I'm actually working on that one myself for my MUD.

I don't understand this statement. They have enough content to help players get to 80 in many different ways. With most likely expansions to add new content.

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I can't wait for GW2 to be released and I won't be playing it but we might loose some of the people who are deeply unhappy here and are very vocal about it.

Supreme you have openly said you don't play this game any more so why do you post on the forums of a game you don't play. :rolleyes:

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I can't wait for GW2 to be released and I won't be playing it but we might loose some of the people who are deeply unhappy here and are very vocal about it.

Supreme you have openly said you don't play this game any more so why do you post on the forums of a game you don't play. :rolleyes:
Because kvetching about CO is his minigame. Some people like playing dressup in the Character Creator; some like farming Darkspeed in Resistance or CTP mats on Monster Island. He likes to complain about a game he doesn't play. And we're all playing the game with him! :)

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Supreme you have openly said you don't play this game any more so why do you post on the forums of a game you don't play. :rolleyes:

Because it's more fun than playing the game. I actually don't post on this forum all that often, it's just this topic that got me going. I like to keep myself up to date on where this game is going so I can come back in once it gets better.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Community Rules and Policies (http://forums.champions-online.com/announcement.php?f=19&a=8) ~GM Tiyshen

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I've read all the releveant stuff on GW2 already. I'll still believe it when it's actually out, and I'm able to pick it apart myself. And even then, I'm not going to get too excited about it. It all sounds great on paper. In small instances, it seems to work out fine.

I tend to judge a game based on 3 points of reference in an MMO environment, though - launch, 3 months, 6 months. You can extend this out to four if you want, but just because it sounds cool initially doesn't mean it will be 3 or 6 months down the line, or worth the time/effort investment a year down the line, either.

It's interesting enough it'll hit at least point 1 for me (launch). I'll decide at my usual breakpoints as they come up. Initially, it sounds cool.. In practice? I can see many places where it can fall apart quickly.

Dwarf Fortress was mentioned. I read all of Boatmurdered, and I look at the game of what happens when you let dynamic things run too free - things get stupid fast, and while it's certainly entertaining to watch or read about, it's not something I'd enjoy doing on a personal level.

Learned that lesson with EVE and nullsec wars.

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Supreme I think its against forum rules to advertise other games on forums you may want to edit your post.

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Supreme I think its against forum rules to advertise other games on forums you may want to edit your post.
You think he cares. That's kind of cute. :)

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It doesn't loop, but both states have an end state.

Say you save the village from the centuars, then the villiage is at the "Best state" however the centuars will raid again. If they finally succeed, then they will trigger bad state 1, then if they continue to succeed, bad state 2. etc. Think of it like a tug of war. Eventually the dynamic event will stop at the "worst state" and players can try and take it back to the "best state". The "Best state" will, for what we've been told. give the best rewards. Such a merchants that will sell you items at a much lower price.

This isn't just theory-crafting. They have already shown this off in action.

Really, really. There's just TONS of info out there on what happens with GW2. You really need to read up on it. It's great stuff!

Aha, that makes sense. So stick around long enough and you really won't "miss out" on anything. I like that.

It's not the endless bounty of new content it sounded like (and it's still just regular MMO quests but with a new paint job), but it sounds pretty cool.

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Interesting how this thread has turned into a subtle GW2 hype session. :rolleyes:

The first GW game left a good impression on me, but honestly, don't count the chickens until they've hatched. Wait for the game to actually come out first to sample the actual gameplay before singing so many premature high praises about it.

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Interesting how this thread has turned into a subtle GW2 hype session. :rolleyes:
I disagree.

I don't think it's been subtle at all.

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I wouldn't really call it hype anyway.

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It doesn't loop, but both states have an end state.

Say you save the village from the centuars, then the villiage is at the "Best state" however the centuars will raid again. If they finally succeed, then they will trigger bad state 1, then if they continue to succeed, bad state 2. etc. Think of it like a tug of war. Eventually the dynamic event will stop at the "worst state" and players can try and take it back to the "best state". The "Best state" will, for what we've been told. give the best rewards. Such a merchants that will sell you items at a much lower price.

This isn't just theory-crafting. They have already shown this off in action.

Really, really. There's just TONS of info out there on what happens with GW2. You really need to read up on it. It's great stuff!

That quote wasnt me.

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That quote wasnt me.

Yeah when I quoted you I left an open quote in there (I fixed the post since) and so I was misquoted as you, and Austerity misquoted Supreme as me. :D

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That quote wasnt me.
What ?!?!?!?

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I wouldn't really call it hype anyway.

It's pretty much hype because the game isn't even out yet and someone in particular is talking like they've been playing it for a while now to experience all these bells and whistles with such high praises as it if were the second coming of MMOs.

It's been done several times before, and it's always hilarious how the praisers fall flat on their faces when the MMO didn't turn out to be what they expected it to be.

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That boat won't float.

What ?!?!?!?

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It's pretty much hype because the game isn't even out yet and someone in particular is talking like they've been playing it for a while now to experience all these bells and whistles with such high praises as it if were the second coming of MMOs.

It's been done several times before, and it's always hilarious how the praisers fall flat on their faces when the MMO didn't turn out to be what they expected it to be.

To be fair, he really refrained from posting much about it, and the only reason he did is because I kept asking. That's why I wouldn't call it hype. I don't think he would have said anything beyond "GW2 doesn't have any of that" had I not asked.

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:| Stop, stop, stop. This thread is getting too silly.

Both of you, principal's office.

Why does it feel weird to say that.

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to the comfy chair with you all !!!
oooooohhhhhh!!!!

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...to be honest a nap does sound nice.

Right, carry on. I'm going to go partake of a certain chair of alleged high comfort level.

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level 28 henchmen at level 11?

elite megadestroids in Resistance at level 11?

with a patently stupid build?

Showing screenshots where you've put a scratch on said mobs isn't proof of easiness... Vids or it didn't happen.

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SWTOR and GW2 are going to be interesting to watch. I'm holding off on pre-ordeirng on either of them for a little while. All the buildup and hype is almost cosmic in origin.

Will these games be the most perfect MMOs ever made ever?
. [/COLOR]

I'm absolutely not interested in TOR since i never was a big Starwars fan, and all i saw so far from the game
the combat looked just boring to me. I think in the end it will be just another standard MMO only with more cut-scence
and you can only hope that they are skipable :D

GW2 however lokes promising. I liked the Public Groups in RIFT, and in GW2 everyone works together, there
should be no fear to "killsteal" if you help somebody, but also you don't have to group.

Also the gameplay looks more action orientated .. and of course its simply Buy to Play ;)

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It doesn't loop, but both states have an end state.

Say you save the village from the centuars, then the villiage is at the "Best state" however the centuars will raid again. If they finally succeed, then they will trigger bad state 1, then if they continue to succeed, bad state 2. etc. Think of it like a tug of war. Eventually the dynamic event will stop at the "worst state" and players can try and take it back to the "best state". The "Best state" will, for what we've been told. give the best rewards. Such a merchants that will sell you items at a much lower price.

This isn't just theory-crafting. They have already shown this off in action.

Really, really. There's just TONS of info out there on what happens with GW2. You really need to read up on it. It's great stuff!

GW2 is very much likely to be agreat next gen mmo as GW1 still to this day is one of the best investments an MMO gamer can make. 30 bucks and now have all 3 core campaigns which for any new player would equals at least a few months of the most hard core type of play to work through.

However some of the stuff your trying to play up about gw2 isnt new to it, infact nc soft, the same company that now controls cryptics old masterpiece COX has been using similar technology in COX for several years

Mostly as a test for the big new stuff they are doing in cox now. For example using the same technology they have had since year 0 that allows each player to see something different when objects appear during the use of certain powers, or in AE when each player percieves the holographic contact as a different character based on the mission they are running.

Now as COX gets its new zone by zone redo they will be adding that same technology to every aspect. Soon there once you have done certain arcs contacts may change or even things in the enviroment, like for example

You do an arc for a local detective, and once you have you finished it instead of seeing gang members in the area mugging people you now see police arresting them now that you have broken the back on thier power in the area.

NC Soft with GW2 will likely show alot of next gen evolution in things but they are not exactly completely new ideas nor unseen in older MMOs.

TOR I have 0 hope in. Everything about character creation and advancment there is so much like wow as to destroy any further interest. It may have voice acting, it may have multiple options during story arcs, but in the end most of the classes are jedi/sith of mildly different flavors, and classes that will in time and almost certainly take a back seat to the force users who will become the central focus of most of that games pvp dynamic.

Worse though is the fact if you look at how they make and advance characters it has alot more in common with games like WoW and AoC based on very limiting tree selections and overly dependant on gear quality.

Why TOR didnt have the sense to use a D20 rules system like in the old KOTOR games which is the same set of rules found in alot of PnP games like D&D 3E and 3.5, and more importantly the star wars RPG made at the same time using a more evolved varient of the d20 system. As those who played KOTOR may recall it allowed for alot of customization even when playing the same class a second time around it didnt feel stale.

sadly it seems DDO for all its suckiness in world design will keep remaining the one D20 based mmo out there and on that single strength will keep persisting for no few more years as D&D players who have lost rl game groups keep being drawn there to get thier fix.

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Can we stop about GW2, TOR, **** and whatever other game to get back on-topic?

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Can we stop about GW2, TOR, **** and whatever other game to get back on-topic?

there was a topic? I certainly didnt see one even in the OP. I saw some newb posting thier opinion based on playing virtually nothing of it and trying to call a known exploitive playstyle legitimate enough to warrant a massive change in the game.

As people have long said in CO challenge is what you make of it

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there was a topic? I certainly didnt see one even in the OP. I saw some newb posting thier opinion based on playing virtually nothing of it and trying to call a known exploitive playstyle legitimate enough to warrant a massive change in the game.

As people have long said in CO challenge is what you make of it

Well, if all has been said, let the topic die.
All we do posting about anything and everything is bumping it up higher.

Either we give "solutions" or at least ideas about said topic, or we open new ones.
Besides the whole debate about GW2 and TOR is kinda useless: those games aren't even out yet (sadly), so saying that one is this, this other one is that... Rumors, teasers, commercials, no fact.

Ps: Just so it's said, I'm a GW veteran (6+ years), waiting for the second. Still, CO board is not the place I'd go to speak about it... At least, not in the middle of a pure CO topic...

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On topic: What's really too easy is getting you guys to derail a topic ;)

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Personally, I'm going to watch the official board for GW2, once it comes out. No doubt you'll hear this exact same conversation over there, in due time.

Some 'gamers' are never satisfied and I'm certain that GW2 may be 'to easy' and not offer the kind of reward that some gamers crave.

People will call for sweeping changes to the game and those that like GW2 as it is will defend it while being subtly insulted for being 'casual' and ruining the game. Then the folks will herald another new game, that's going to be better than anything, and better than GW2.

Then they all go to that game and...

Wash...rinse...repeat...for every MMO.

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And again, it's like I'm not even here. :(

HI RUNE!!!!!

::waves::

:D

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and Austerity misquoted Supreme as me. :D

I really hope you didn't think that was unintentional ;)

Though it is amusing that I've never revealed my "thread derailment scorecard" on this forum given how cumulatively active I've been here.

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Showing screenshots where you've put a scratch on said mobs isn't proof of easiness... Vids or it didn't happen.

...

(1) No. I don't do vids, I don't have the software. Not to mention the insane length those videos would be. (Pretty sure the Mega D fight was over an hour of me reading a book while the game ran, and occasionally moving the mouse).

(2) This is so easy to verify yourself as to be trivial.

(3) Pretty sure every fight i showed, my being at full health with the enemies at the health they are at demonstrates the fight is easily completable without risk.

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Personally, I'm going to watch the official board for GW2, once it comes out. No doubt you'll hear this exact same conversation over there, in due time.

Some 'gamers' are never satisfied and I'm certain that GW2 may be 'to easy' and not offer the kind of reward that some gamers crave.

People will call for sweeping changes to the game and those that like GW2 as it is will defend it while being subtly insulted for being 'casual' and ruining the game. Then the folks will herald another new game, that's going to be better than anything, and better than GW2.

Then they all go to that game and...

Wash...rinse...repeat...for every MMO.

You hear it in Guild Wars 1 boards. And the people saying it's too easy aren't wrong. Unlike Cryptic, the ArenaNet has already said that the classes are very powerful once you understand how they work. Cryptic adds more difficult content all the time. Resistance proves this with mobs running around that are difficult to take down even with a min-maxed build. So yeah, people asking for more difficult content isn't within the realm of impossibility.

As for why "casual" is a dirty word. It's because more "hardcore" gamers are threatened because developers find casual players easier to market and thus the scope of "hardcore" games get smaller and smaller. It's just as simple as that. I don't find myself being "hardcore" but I like a challenge regardless. Breezing my way through content isn't something that's fun. In terms of puzzles, it's not the picture you make at the end, it's the act of solving it.

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Supreme its really not the asking of more difficult content that's the real issue. It's the insulting manner in which it's often done. People get there backs up...then you get conflicts and such.

Casuals exist, and their not going away....and you right they are far easier to market to...but MMOs arn't the exclusive club that they use to be. Folks enjoy games for lots of different reasons now. Gamers from all over the world with different ages, and game styles.

Casual may be a dirty word but hardcores need to realize that it's not helping them, at all, when they sling mud in the eyes of folks who are passionate about a game. If you want them to see your point of view don't call them (outright or subtly) stupid, lazy, or bad players. It doesn't help and it never did. (this goes for all MMOS)

Insults fly from both sides.

MMO devs have the unfortunate position of trying to please both camps..and really I don't think it can be done at this point. I do believe there is a real market for a ultra hard face-to-a-brick-wall MMO, as well as one that is more laid back and social.

I think the era of niche MMOs is just around the corner.

Hehe who knows it might save some gamers from severe condensation. *wink*

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Champions is already a Niche MMO, come on, let's be honest here.

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Champions is already a Niche MMO, come on, let's be honest here.

That's not a bad thing at all. An MMO just can not be all things to all people.

I'm sure you'll find a MMO to suit your needs in the near future. Perhaps joining betas to give feedback, and talk to developers about making content catered exclusively to a hardcore crowd.

The time is right for this kind of thing....and Supreme there are plenty of games already that my be a good match for you. I did a 'free trial' bonanza when I was looking for a new MMO to play and found my way here. Perhaps you could try that as well.

Really the market is very big at this point. Plenty of games to explore.

Why frustrate yourself over a game that is set in it's ways, and caters to a demographic that you don't feel that belong to?

Hell...I left Rift because it catered to the hardcore raider crowd...not my cup of tea at all....but then I found CO and I'm happy as a clam.

I hope that you find your clam happiness as well one day.

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Champions is already a Niche MMO, come on, let's be honest here.

I've always said that CO is a niche MMO.

Personally, I like it that way.

If that makes me elitist, exclusionary and all that stuff, then so be it. I like my niches, they tend to contain people that I have things in common with, rather than having to mix it up with the general population.

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I play CO when I want to be a super hero

I play STO when I want to be a starship captain

I play LOTRO when I want to be a spear totin' warden


... and so on, and so on.....

. and I pay the required amount to play each of them to my satisfaction level, just like everyone else that plays the same game.

and for those games I dont want to pay.... I dont play.

.

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Champions is already a Niche MMO, come on, let's be honest here.

And its the only game where the davs not cater for the hardcore gamers and PvPler all the time.
Just look at all the balancing crap that goes up in Rift, just because the devs listen too much about
what the PvPler are crying about in the forums, and so eahc month they nerf the old FoTM build
and create a new.

And that is also again my highest hope in GW2, that they don't create a game where you are not a
second class player, if you don't want to run the "hardest" content 100 times ;)

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If that makes me elitist, exclusionary and all that stuff, then so be it. I like my niches, they tend to contain people that I have things in common with, rather than having to mix it up with the general population.

I don't think it does at all. Champs is a very different animals from most MMOs out there...and from the looks of the first UNTIL Field Report they are going to build on the strengths that they have, and not try to please everyone.

Champs will attract people who like it's style of play...and then perhaps other games will attract folks, who game on the other end of the spectrum.

I think that's how it ought to be really.

(However I really feel like this game needs more advertising. I try to do as much as I can word of mouth, but there is a vast untapped market of MMO players looking for a non hardcore, more social, and creative based game...they just need to see that CO exists.)

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On topic: What's really too easy is getting you guys to derail a topic ;)

Pff, I run a forum where it's a spectacle if any given thread stays on topic for more than one page. That's been going on for like 10 years now. I'm a pro. :D

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Supreme its really not the asking of more difficult content that's the real issue. It's the insulting manner in which it's often done. People get there backs up...then you get conflicts and such.

Casuals exist, and their not going away....and you right they are far easier to market to...but MMOs arn't the exclusive club that they use to be. Folks enjoy games for lots of different reasons now. Gamers from all over the world with different ages, and game styles.

Casual may be a dirty word but hardcores need to realize that it's not helping them, at all, when they sling mud in the eyes of folks who are passionate about a game. If you want them to see your point of view don't call them (outright or subtly) stupid, lazy, or bad players. It doesn't help and it never did. (this goes for all MMOS)

Insults fly from both sides.

MMO devs have the unfortunate position of trying to please both camps..and really I don't think it can be done at this point. I do believe there is a real market for a ultra hard face-to-a-brick-wall MMO, as well as one that is more laid back and social.

I think the era of niche MMOs is just around the corner.

Hehe who knows it might save some gamers from severe condensation. *wink*

I've always said that CO is a niche MMO.

Personally, I like it that way.

If that makes me elitist, exclusionary and all that stuff, then so be it. I like my niches, they tend to contain people that I have things in common with, rather than having to mix it up with the general population.

Welp, others have done my work here. o7 Maintain, gentlemen.

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So the ultimate conclusion of this seems to be that the best way to handle this is to add a difficulty setting above Elite?

Let's look at the thread and what we know about the game. Every time Cryptic has raised the difficulty of the game overall in the past, they've shot themselves in the foot and they've had to tone things down. Past examples being stuff like the Gadroon, some mobs in Vibora Bay, Serpent Lantern, and so on. All of which have been given sane levels of difficulty for casual players.

This is because the vast majority of the playerbase is casual, and the vocal minority is hardcore. I'm sorry but this is an unpleasant truth. It's like television. Look at something like Doctor Who, you'll have a very tiny minority that might hate something because it was more light hearted than Doctor Who should have been in that particular case, but then if you look at the ratings you find that that was the third most popular episode ever since the series run began in '05. And that's how it always is.

You have more people watching Doctor Who than you have talking about the show, and you have more people playing Champions Onlilne than you have talking about it. A lot of the people playing Champions are casual people, and I keep bringing more casual people into the game all the time due to the accessibility, and all of those people have subscribed because it's fun. But if you mess with their game experience, they leave and look for something else. That's why Normal (and perhaps Difficult) shouldn't be touched, and open world zones shouldn't be retooled either.

As it is, I can bring people into Champions Online whom have only ever played stuff like Minecraft, or whom are quite new to games entirely. One of the folks I brought in couldn't even control his camera properly at first, but you should see him now. He's blasting stuff up as well as I am. But we and all of my friends would be gone if the difficulty was screwed with for us, because it would mean that A) it wouldn't be fun game that we're playing it for, and B) we wouldn't be able to bring new people into it.

See, the strength of Champions Online is in its ability to entertain and amuse without stressing people out and frustrating them. For the vast majority, the last thing they want after coming home from a hard day's work is to be seriously ****ed off by a game. Now CO is a game that beguiles and delights, as it offers you the promise of being your own superhero. You can pick an archetype or go freeform, and you can put together any sort of hero you like. Once you're in the game you actually get to feel heroic.

There were times once or twice in the past where the difficulty bar was raised so high that CO was referred to Civilians Online. Just average people whom shoot coloured lights from their hands. A lot of people came to the forums to say this, and the people whom had never posted before coming to the forums to say just this drowned everyone else out. This is why the Normal difficulty of the game was toned down more and more over time to make it more accessible and friendly to new players and casual players.

If Cryptic screws with that, they lose their primary audience. All of them go looking for a new game. And I don't see the point of harming a 90~% audience (which I honestly think it is) to benefit the 10~%. Like I said, ti's the same as Doctor Who. You get a few vocal fans who post on a forum about the show, but the vast majority of people whom watch Doctor Who don't do that, they don't have anything to do with those fans, and in fact they might even find those fans a bit uncouth and ridiculous in how pedantic they are.

It's the same everywhere.

If you make something accessible to normal, everyday people, then the normal, everyday people are going to outnumber the 'hardcore' on a scale of 10:1. That's an unpleasant truth but I'm sorry, it is a truth.

Now as I said in the beginning, I don't think that Cryptic should ignore the 10~% either. So perhaps the solution is just to add another difficulty setting above Elite, and when it becomes necessary perhaps even add another above that one, keeping the hardcore happy for as long as they can whilst not screwing with the base game for everyone else. You can amuse the hardcore whilst not even letting anyone else notice. That can be done. And it can be done via difficulty settings.

In fact, using the Blood Moon mechanics, you might even be able to make the difficulty settings work in the open zones, that's something to consider. But leave Normal as is, don't touch that in open zones. The difficulty in those zones needs to remain as-is for the game to remain popular.

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That said. My difficulty setting is trying to keep the mats clean in my penthouse since I can't put boots on my werewolf and I don't have any sort of welcome mat to wipe my feet on. And sometimes my guests leave messy footprints everywhere.

Often even on the ceiling. Do you know how hard it is to clean muddy pawprints off the ceiling?