This _is_ too easy

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VagrantWolf.

I think I remember you. Name change?

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Yanno, I keep hearing a lot of arguments against raising difficulty, that tend to suggest people assume that all difficulty will increase.

Yet most of the time I see people asking for it, they only want the change to Elite, or a new difficulty level above Elite, to have the changes they're talking about.

I have to wonder if signals aren't being misread here.

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Yanno, I keep hearing a lot of arguments against raising difficulty, that tend to suggest people assume that all difficulty will increase.

Yet most of the time I see people asking for it, they only want the change to Elite, or a new difficulty level above Elite, to have the changes they're talking about.

I have to wonder if signals aren't being misread here.

Part of the problem is that most people who want this, seem to want it to impact open world mods as well as instances, or use open world mobs as their example for why the game is too easy.

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Part of the problem is that most people who want this, seem to want it to impact open world mods as well as instances, or use open world mobs as their example for why the game is too easy.

I won't disagree that a majority of them use both bad examples and poorly constructed arguments - some specific people in particular have a nasty habit of being unable to frame a decent argument period regardless of if they have a point (but hey, they're banned now). I'm just noticing a trend.

I think the OP even mentioned at some point that an increase in base difficulty wasn't desired - though I may be misremembering, because this discussion comes up more regular than tidal changes. But, even when the one side flat-out states that Normal (and sometimes any difficulty below Elite) can and should be left alone, it meets the same level of bad counter-argument that implies Normal would be changed anyway.

It's somewhat confusing.

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The OP said he needed over an hour !!! to kill that mob .. so he wants to need over 10 hours to kill a mob, or what ?

Sorry .. but that is really a joke :D

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In an effort to not be ignored for a third f'n time, I'm reposting my entire first post.

FFS someone reply to me like I exist.

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Suggestions for making the game harder:

(1) bigger numbers are NOT the answer
(2) As you increase the difficulty slider, enemies, especially master/supervillains and legendaries (etc..) should unlock additional attacks
(3): These attacks should be used *in response* to player defenses being encountered, not indiscriminately, and work to negate the defense.

Example:
An attack which is low damage but *if* it is blocked it breaks the block, deals substantially more damage, and applies crippling challenge to the player (preventing him from blocking for 10s). If it isn't blocked its just a low-damage attack. Attack should have a distinctive charge-up animation. The villain only throws the attack if its attacks are frequently blocked.

Note:
-Players can adapt to the attack to reduce its usefulness.
-A devastatingly successful (that is, hits a player who is blocking) blow by the power negates one of a player's defensive options both against the attack and for additional time afterwards.

This all sounds wonderful on paper,and was suggested in beta, even variations on it attempted, but all came to the same startling conclusion; It's too hard and makes the game unfun.

Combat in Champions online is fast, and a group or two of foes if you pull badly, can have a lot going on at once, and it's worse in teams. With thirty attacks flying around every four seconds, how are you to identify when to block, and when to attack?

It works fine to have a rock, paper, scissors mechanic in fights with just a couple of foes, since you can concentrate on the tactics needed to beat them one at a time, more or less. With many foes all on you and your friends all at the same time, you can easily be blocking a big charge up coming from one foe, while another one pegs you with this "weak but disables blocking and heavily damages blocking player" attack, thus two-shotting you in an instant.

Not fun.

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Sorry Rune. :C

If it helps? I vehemently concur. That's why I want to see Normal left untouched, at least. What's fun for a hardcore minority is too much stress, frustration, and annoyance for the casual majority.

When a service stops performing the particular action(s) that a customer is paying for, the customer decides to go and look elsewhere for a better service. I almost saw that happen in the past when Cryptic ramped the difficulty up so much that it made it unfun. There was a series of bugs at one point that made the game ridiculous, so I just stopped playing for a while.

I guess the exodus away from CO was big enough to the point where it got Cryptic to fix everything, since the difficulty was sane and fun when I came back! See, Cryptic has those numbers. They know that an unfun game isn't marketable to the vast majority. They ran their experiments and they have the numbers, and the numbers show that the game as it is now is more popular than the game that had the levels of difficulty that it did in the past. Everything is better, now.

I'm sure that if the numbers had shown that the vast majority wanted the game in its harder state back then, Cryptic would have left it that way and perhaps even ramped it up. The choice they made then is the choice they'll continue to make, because it keeps the game accessible. And in a growingly competitive free-to-play market, you want to be the most accessible game. If you have a barrier of entry, you're chasing off a potential paying customer.

By making the game unfun, you're losing money.

That's why I think that solutions for hardcore players may be necessary but only so long as they don't affect the majority that enjoys the game right now.

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I would like to see this statistic saying that the majority of the playerbase can't handle a challenge.

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Seeing as the majority of the launch player base has left champions, never to return...

(and that is definitely Vagrantwolf with a new name...)

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I would like to see this statistic saying that the majority of the playerbase can't handle a challenge.

Define challenge.
You see, that's the problem. Challenge in video games means something completely different depending on who you ask.

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you prove how to block all day, how boring, perhaps i should try this against therakiel..

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Seeing as the majority of the launch player base has left champions, never to return...
Hm. I guess you have data to back that claim up?

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I still remember how i died 3-4 times against Mutated Mayor Biselle with my first character. It was am Infernal
with Iceform, and i used Resurcgance and a Healpatch in each Fight. One Superstat was CON.

That was last year before we got the sliders, so on "normal" .. but i still can't see how most squishys
today will kill him on elite with ease.

Ahh .. and she didn't had flight to prevent fall damage .. my squishys had all teleport at that time to escape
when thinks get nasty .. and i had to use it often. DIed also even 3-4 times against Sapphire in VB, and
was shocked how easy she was with defiance and flight on my next character.

Personaly i don't play with offense passives anymore just to avoid that kind of "challange".

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Hm. I guess you have data to back that claim up?

Good point, there's a few people here on the forums alone who I know have been here since before launch.

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Yanno, I keep hearing a lot of arguments against raising difficulty, that tend to suggest people assume that all difficulty will increase.

Yet most of the time I see people asking for it, they only want the change to Elite, or a new difficulty level above Elite, to have the changes they're talking about.

I have to wonder if signals aren't being misread here.

I'm one of those who doesn't want the difficulty raised and that means on elite to. I play mostly on Very Hard unless I want gear then I switch to elite. If elite becomes harder I will be separated from increasing gear drops so that a few people can say look how cool I am. I'm against a new difficulty for extreme players as they will want new gear to as they have played a higher difficulty.

Champions is a casual game to play for fun if you want extreme hard core gaming please find a game that provides this. ( I would prefer you to stay and enjoy Champions online for what it is a fun game without the stresses of extreme gaming)

Another point from this post I want to make Gamer does not mean hardcore elitist it means some one that games. I'm a gamer I play Champs rather a lot and I like it's difficulty as is.

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As has been mentioned, challenge is subjective, and it's also contextual.

What might be challenging for one person may be distinctly unfun for another. Whether a person is capable of something as well is also not a valid consideration, whether a person finds something fun is.

Like I said before, the game was horrendously challenging and difficult for me at one point, so I left. And as I pointed out in that post; There must have been so many other people leaving at that time, too, because when I came back the game was much more sane, and therefore much more fun.

Increasing the difficulty of the game does not constitute a challenge, either. And moreover, the ways people have discussed of making the game challenging would make the game unfun, and casual players would leave in droves again. If I saw a method for making the game challenging rather than out and out just more difficult and frustrating, then I might get behind it. But thus far is just "Hey, let's do this to please us and **** casual players off. Everything at their expense!" yeah?

But the thing is is that that has happened. I remember there was a time when the Neutronium Power Armour (or whatever he's called, the patrolling bloke in the Desert) could actually one shot me, Ice Shamans had crazy holds, Irradiates could throw nasty bombs, Dogz could remove travel powers, and so on. This was so utterly ridiculous. Even a number of forum regulars were complaining. And that's when I left.

If that happens again, I leave again. The game is fine as it is right now. If anything needs to happen then it's higher difficulty levels which don't affect the game as it is right now. If you screw with the game in its current form, then you cause another mass exodus.

As I said: Casual players are using this particular service to entertain and amuse themselves, if you drop the ball and screw up that service, then they'll go elsewhere to find a service that suits them better.

This has already all played out in the past.

Cryptic found that the casual market was better for them. So instead of whining on and on about how the game is too easy, you should start new threads about new difficulty settings and how the game could be improved in that difficulty setting. If you go on and on about how the entire game can change then the time when the entire game was changed is going to be brought up. And as I pointed out: Casuals won. We just have far more considerable numbers.

And to point out this again: In a competitive free-to-play market, having an unnecessary barrier of entry is turning away a potential customer. By being an accessible and entertaining service, you open the door to as many players as possible, which creates a successful free-to-play service.

---

And let's not be fools, here. Is causing a mass exodus away from Champions Online at the exact time that DC Universe Online and City of Heroes/Villains are going free-to-play really a good idea? Currently Cryptic has the casual demographic covered better than DC UO or CoH/V, but if they change their game then they could lose a sizeable chunk of that demographic to another game. Basically, with a product you have to decide upon which demographic you're aiming for and stick to your guns. If you flip flop around then you please no one, and that has bad results.

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10 Chars...

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If that happens again, I leave again. The game is fine as it is right now. If anything needs to happen then it's higher difficulty levels which don't affect the game as it is right now. If you screw with the game in its current form, then you cause another mass exodus.
.

The addition of more options in the difficulty slider is what I have seen most folks who want more challenge suggest.

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I'm one of those who doesn't want the difficulty raised and that means on elite to. I play mostly on Very Hard unless I want gear then I switch to elite. If elite becomes harder I will be separated from increasing gear drops so that a few people can say look how cool I am. I'm against a new difficulty for extreme players as they will want new gear to as they have played a higher difficulty.

How is it necessarily locking you out from new gear, if most of it is BoE anyway and you can get it on the auctionhouse eventually? I mean, that's the way it looks to be that a majority of gear is going anyway, and even if it doesn't, there's still BoE SL Elite gear.

That's even assuming their is a change to gear drops if they add a new difficulty tier, or that Elite is really made all that much harder that you can't still play it if you want to (albeit obviously with a bit more challenge added in).

You're making a lot of assumptions here with very little information (other than possibly other arguments on the matter that I haven't even brought up in detail, which seems kind of odd - It's the entire assumption problem all over again).

Champions is a casual game to play for fun if you want extreme hard core gaming please find a game that provides this. ( I would prefer you to stay and enjoy Champions online for what it is a fun game without the stresses of extreme gaming)

Another point from this post I want to make Gamer does not mean hardcore elitist it means some one that games. I'm a gamer I play Champs rather a lot and I like it's difficulty as is.

Again, what's your base for making this assumption off of what I said? There's still 4 difficulties for other people to play on (five if we leave Elite alone and just add a tier beyond that). How does this stop you from playing those, just because there is an option for greater, potentially with no greater rewards (maybe a slight volume increase? I don't know nor care at this point, and I expect if it's even brought up for development, it will be discussed to death at that time; This is just theory work).

I'm trying to get at the root of exactly this kind of thing - what in my statements lead to this, in specific?

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Compared to Maple Story ...Champions is a rage quit hard mmo :P

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Hm. I guess you have data to back that claim up?
Judging by the number of players I see on vs the number in September 2009, yeah, it's probably true, if uninteresting.

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Judging by the number of players I see on vs the number in September 2009, yeah, it's probably true, if uninteresting.

Seeing as the majority of the launch player base has left champions, never to return...

(and that is definitely Vagrantwolf with a new name...)

Well yeah his wolf character "Vagrant" kinda gave that away. :D

Majority of launch playerbase probably always moves on. They get the game, play the first free months, then call it quits. Happens all the time. Not sure about majority per se, but yeah.

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Judging by the number of players I see on vs the number in September 2009, yeah, it's probably true, if uninteresting.

I'd say that numbers alone aren't really an indication of anything conclusive.

All my friends hemmoraged from COX within the first year (becoming bored after hitting 50 on multiple toons) while I stuck around (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/member.php?u=325169), leaving only because this game became FTP and offered things that COH players had been clamoring for. (destructible and interactive environments, holstered weapons as costume items, the ability to create a SS scrapper, etc.)

If we both applied our bias when asked about the decreasing numbers, they might cite lack of endgame content, while I might cite quality of life issues.

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Always love a good DOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!! thread .

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In an effort to not be ignored for a third f'n time, I'm reposting my entire first post.


:mad: Hey! I responded!

If it helps, I think we all agree with you, which is why that argument pretty much died immediately. As you said, it's a good idea on paper, but once you start adding player disabling tricks, combat get's very difficult. I think it would be good for bosses and such, but not for the rabble.

And you can't do it like that for every encounter because then team play would destroy anything in it's path.

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There's also a large number of names in game that have been here since launch (or before) that never bother to post on the forums. This is no different from any other MMO, people come and people go, Some stay for a month, some for a decade. I still think its a little early to be calling it a wash.

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A "more challenging" game would need opponents that hit harder, faster, can take more damage and/or fight in much more "intelligent" ways. And what is the goal of "more challenging" gameplay? More XP, better loot or a greater sense of accomplisment? It is different for each and every player.

For me, there are many charming aspects to CO, two of which are:

1) Combat is CO is usually quite relaxed and fast-paced. I think that is in keeping with its comic book/super-hero roots. While the occassional long-duration battle is fine with me, I prefer the heroic smackdown of evil-doers.

2) Unlike many MMOs, gear/upgrades in CO are not what a makes a character playable. Sure, they can heighten effectiveness and make things easier, but it is the character that matters most. After years of raiding/farming I personally just got tired of it; for me it had become less about having fun and more about having the best. Not because I wanted to, but because I needed to. I like that in CO a relatively "naked" character can still finish missions (even on elite.)

Any game becomes easier when you find efficient methods and/or broken mechanics; but the most common reason is because you have learned how to defeat the challenges. It is no fault of the game.

[edited for some clarity; not enough caffeine]

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A "more challenging" game would need opponents that hit harder, faster, can take more damage and/or fight in much more "intelligent" ways. And what is the goal of "more challenging" gameplay? More XP, better loot or a greater sense of accomplisment? It is different for each and every player.

For me, there are many charming aspects to CO, two of which are:

1) Combat is CO is usually quite relaxed and fast-paced. I think that is in keeping with its comic book/super-hero roots. While the occassional long-duration battle is fine with me, I prefer the heroic smackdown of evil-doers.

2) Unlike many MMOs, gear/upgrades in CO are not what a makes a character playable. Sure, they can heighten effectiveness and make things easier, but it is the character that matters most. After years of raiding/farming I personally just got tired of it; for me it had become less about having fun and more about having the best. Not because I wanted to, but because I needed to. I like that in CO a relatively "naked" character can still finish missions (even on elite.)

Any game becomes easier when you find efficient methods and/or broken mechanics; but the most common reason is because you have learned how to defeat the challenges. It is no fault of the game.

[edited for some clarity; not enough caffeine]

I agree. Point #2 in particular; what you have is secondary to what you are.

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I think that's true to some extent, but when players can get by with a build like this:



Energy Builder
1 Single Target Attack
1 AoE
12 Buffs/Debuffs



It just seems kind of lame, to me at least.

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2) Unlike many MMOs, gear/upgrades in CO are not what a makes a character playable. Sure, they can heighten effectiveness and make things easier, but it is the character that matters most. After years of raiding/farming I personally just got tired of it; for me it had become less about having fun and more about having the best. Not because I wanted to, but because I needed to. I like that in CO a relatively "naked" character can still finish missions (even on elite.)

...and this is what makes the CO community so nice, friendly and relaxed.

Relaxed players = Great community

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I think that's true to some extent, but when players can get by with a build like this:



It just seems kind of lame, to me at least.

Personally i don't really miss having Hotkey bars like that :
16492

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I think that's true to some extent, but when players can get by with a build like this:



It just seems kind of lame, to me at least.

What people who keep saying that fail to mention is alot of the buffs and debuffs are attacks in and of themselves. My fire character uses...

Fireball + UA to boost Conflag and Heatwave damage, which is also a nice nuke in and of itself when charged.

Flashfire for energy generation.

Pyre for another energy generating patch, advantaged with Crippling Challenge and Backdraft it also makes for a very nice opener.

And if I wanted, I could advantage Heatwave to in turn boost Conflag and Fireball damage.

...All this, before even counting in his click buffs.

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Personally i don't really miss having Hotkey bars like that :
16492

Oh and...

...Ugghh, just ugghh. If I wanted to play a flight simulator I'd actually go and play one.

...Forgetting for a moment working my PS3 pad setup would probably be considered as complicated to some people.

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There's also a large number of names in game that have been here since launch (or before) that never bother to post on the forums. This is no different from any other MMO, people come and people go, Some stay for a month, some for a decade. I still think its a little early to be calling it a wash.

Indeed. Nothing new under the sun. (http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=139839)

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Personally i don't really miss having Hotkey bars like that :
16492

I don't either. But being able to hit 2 keys without even thinking about targetting and win is equally silly. CCs, debuffs, buffs, etc. Always go to waste as death is the ultimate CC.


What people who keep saying that fail to mention is alot of the buffs and debuffs are attacks in and of themselves. My fire character uses...

Fireball + UA to boost Conflag and Heatwave damage, which is also a nice nuke in and of itself when charged.

Flashfire for energy generation.

Pyre for another energy generating patch, advantaged with Crippling Challenge and Backdraft it also makes for a very nice opener.

And if I wanted, I could advantage Heatwave to in turn boost Conflag and Fireball damage.

...All this, before even counting in his click buffs.


Fire is really the only set that allows this. Any other set it's "Hit 1 to start energy builder, hit 2 or 3" and even so, fire doesn't even need all those debuffs or buffs, as Conflagration can annihilate most everything and anything that doesn't get wasted can be hit with a single target attack like heatwave.

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Well ok you 'could' do that. However why would you want to? There are lots of attacks with really cool animations and neat FX. Sure if you min/max and bring it down to teo attacks that's...kinda good min/maxing...but of course it's going to get boring.

Just because it can be done does not mean that it must be done.... o_O

...and while it could be said that more button pressing equals...more skill?...perhaps...to me that debatable....The combat in Champs is faster paced than say WOW or Rift. it's almost an arcade style action so keeping the button presses to a minimum makes it more fun to play with.

Edit to add: Actually I'm trying out a Telepathic character right now...and I have to keep four attacks going in a rotation just to say alive. So perhaps it depends on the power set?

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I think that's true to some extent, but when players can get by with a build like this:



It just seems kind of lame, to me at least.

It would be lame and boring to play that way, for me. I enjoy the different animations of different powers. It's not all about efficiency and numbers; it's also about eye candy and fun factor.

Many builds that 'can get by' are just not my idea if fun.

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...and while it could be said that more button pressing equals...more skill?...perhaps...to me that debatable....The combat in Champs is faster paced than say WOW or Rift. it's almost an arcade style action so keeping the button presses to a minimum makes it more fun to play with.


It's not just "more button presses". More button presses would be just jacking up enemy HP like Elite does. I would say more environment and combat awareness. See a guy that can jack up your fire toon surrounded by goons that fire takes down easily? Hit him first! See a guy that summons things that can make mince meat of your party? Focus Fire! Simple things like that.

It would be lame and boring to play that way, for me. I enjoy the different animations of different powers. It's not all about efficiency and numbers; it's also about eye candy and fun factor.

What battle lasts long enough aside from boss battles and some legendaries to do that?

Edit to add: Actually I'm trying out a Telepathic character right now...and I have to keep four attacks going in a rotation just to say alive. So perhaps it depends on the power set?

Try getting mind opener on your T0 attack. It'll help you until you get Ego Storm and then can wipe crowds of baddies out in and instant.

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To bring up some additional food for thought...

My main has 'two attacks' (Ball Lightning isn't much of an attack, though I'm willing to discount it to 3 attacks because it does do damage - It's purely for energy management, however).

Everything else I have is a buff or heal, or is used for some utility purpose (Force Shield is more energy management and some additional defense).

I press more then two buttons in any one single encounter. Infact, I rotate a lot of buttons through - I have an Active Offense up as often as possible, on tougher fights I cycle Active Defenses. I hit Conviction and Bionic Shielding with regularity. I'm doing more then hitting two buttons.

My primary offense, however, is made up of two attacks.

As to this...
It's not just "more button presses". More button presses would be just jacking up enemy HP like Elite does. I would say more environment and combat awareness. See a guy that can jack up your fire toon surrounded by goons that fire takes down easily? Hit him first! See a guy that summons things that can make mince meat of your party? Focus Fire! Simple things like that.

I do that already anyway. If I see a Brickbuster, I engage Ego Surge or Electric Sheathe and fire off a Gigabolt/Lightning Arc and eliminate them first. If I see an enemy I know will be annoying or problematic (ARGENT Combat Engineers, Manimal Rats, and so on) I make sure that they eat the focus of my initial burst or any crowd-control my character might have (Got none on Chthonic, but some of my others have those measures).

How does the number of abilities one have necessarily support or negate the ability to do this? If I had more attack powers, how would this be done better? I don't really see how.

I find the argument a bit silly.

EDIT: Even in WoW (as a warlock, druid, priest, mage, and shaman), I had maybe three or four 'main' attacks. One of which is filler - we can discount that as functionally being an auto-attack, because damned if I wasn't firing it off like one in between more useful shots. On AoE fights, I was generally just spamming the one button (Seed of Corruption; Chain Lightning; Hurricane; Blizzard; Mind Sear) until there was only a handful of targets left. I could throw other things in (generally did), but only one or two other abilities, and then only because of no other reason then I could. For maximum effective DPS, however, it was mostly just spamming one ability and pressing one or two others on occasion.

For single target fights, it was the same thing - Primary nuke, sprinkle other stuff in for flavor. Generally a maximum of 3 other abilities (my Druid rotation was probably the most complex as Balance, and that's only because I had a mechanic that forced me to be that complex with it).

I had literally 4-5 action bars full of crap I almost never bothered to use because I didn't have to. All the things I could and did use with regularity in combat, I could (and did) fit on eight buttons. And most of those only saw rare, occasional use.

More buttons to spam does not equal better - because that rotation bored me a hell of a lot more then my main's does.

EDIT moar: The exact same can be said of Guild Wars (Assassin had the most complex rotation, and that's because it was again, forced upon me; My Dervish and Ranger literally had only 2 real attacks on their bars in the first place), RIFT (my Cleric had maybe 4 attacks I had to cycle just to fill time waiting for cooldowns), CoH/V (I'm only rotating attacks to fill time; The real deal is just 2 attacks. If I'm Support, I may only NEED three attacks at most out of all my power slots, excepting filler), Warhammer Online (3 button faceroll), and every other MMO I've played.

All of those other buttons? Just filler or clutter.

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Yea but...at the end of the day....There has to be someway to keep the spreadsheet crowd, and everyone else happy.

I'd love to see the core game stay just as it is...but perhaps have a super special 'Uber Lunatic' difficulty level implemented in a way that could be used in the over world as well. Perhaps it requires a re-start of the game...or something like that.

Would perhaps, a hard core player, be willing to pay a bit extra for a server shard that was tailored just for their needs?

Hmm...perhaps there is money to be made in something like that....

Sure that might cause some grouping issues but, then perhaps the hardcores, could find each other easier, and just group up for their own difficulty...things.

I dunno but there has to be a way to not ruin the game for 95% and keep 5% still happy.

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Yea but...at the end of the day....There has to be someway to keep the spreadsheet crowd, and everyone else happy.

I'd love to see the core game stay just as it is...but perhaps have a super special 'Uber Lunatic' difficulty level implemented in a way that could be used in the over world as well. Perhaps it requires a re-start of the game...or something like that.

Would perhaps, a hard core player, be willing to pay a bit extra for a server shard that was tailored just for their needs?

Hmm...perhaps there is money to be made in something like that....

Sure that might cause some grouping issues but, then perhaps the hardcores, could find each other easier, and just group up for their own difficulty...things.

I dunno but there has to be a way to not ruin the game for 95% and keep 5% still happy.

Honestly? I'd be happy with a more in-depth difficulty slider that lets you set approximate mob-level, 'difficulty' (what we have now, with the D/H/VH/E buffs) and approximate party size (up to +1 to +2 of the maximum party capacity to keep those parties involved, with a 'Tough' checkpoint as well for non-Lair instances).

The amount of coding behind that is depressing for me to think about, though, and I don't think it's a likely thing to have happen.

Overworld stuff is always going to be easy, and I don't really see any reason to change that. It does put a lot of the real 'challenge' in instances, where I think it should be.

Works fine in CoH/V, anyway.

EDIT: On the comment of 'spreadsheet crowd', though... They're present in every game. And they always boil it down to the bare minimum you need to do in order to achieve maximum effect, and it always ends up making the grand majority of your buttons one of the two categories I laid out earlier - filler or clutter.

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What if Cryptic sent the hardcore blindfolds in the post that they could wear when playing the game?

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What if Cryptic sent the hardcore blindfolds in the post that they could wear when playing the game?

That... might just work.

You're a genius!!

Tumerboy, where are you when we need you? This needs to get back to the devs. I'm sure we could figure out a cheap supplier...

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Silliness aside...

I think JoyElf has a point. I've had this percolating in my mind for a while, now. I didn't want to suggest it because I can't think of a way to do it without it sounding patronising, which isn't my intent.

But I was thinking of a 'Hardcore Only' club.

See, what would happen with this is that it would be a $4 subscription each month that silvers, golds, and lifers could pick up that would provide access to unique shards, these shards would be completely independent from the rest of the game. They would have heightened difficulty across the board, it would be like some sort of 'Hell' difficulty, this counts for open world and instanced areas, and the stats of rewards are buffered, too.

That way, people who want to raid and stuff can then always count on more elite people to raid with if they want that, so they can do this super hardcore stuff with only people who they believe are competent. Instead of remaking the game at the expense of the vast majority, provide a version of the game at a little expense to the hardcore minority.

If the hardcore are serious about wanting a super hard version of Champions, then a tiny subscription cost per month for a version of the game that's hardcore only wouldn't be so harsh.

(What I'm saying is that no one is automatically entitled to anything more than the service they are paying for, and it's horribly self-entitled to believe that the service needs to be retrofitted to suit a vocal minority at the expense of the vast majority. However. That doesn't mean that there can't be a service which is tailored to the hardcore players. They get to pay for a new service, then, and thus they can demand that that service should be how they like it.)

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Silliness aside...

I think JoyElf has a point. I've had this percolating in my mind for a while, now. I didn't want to suggest it because I can't think of a way to do it without it sounding patronising, which isn't my intent.

But I was thinking of a 'Hardcore Only' club.

See, what would happen with this is that it would be a $4 subscription each month that silvers, golds, and lifers could pick up that would provide access to unique shards, these shards would be completely independent from the rest of the game. They would have heightened difficulty across the board, it would be like some sort of 'Hell' difficulty, this counts for open world and instanced areas, and the stats of rewards are buffered, too.

That way, people who want to raid and stuff can then always count on more elite people to raid with if they want that, so they can do this super hardcore stuff with only people who they believe are competent. Instead of remaking the game at the expense of the vast majority, provide a version of the game at a little expense to the hardcore minority.

If the hardcore are serious about wanting a super hard version of Champions, then a tiny subscription cost per month for a version of the game that's hardcore only wouldn't be so harsh.

(What I'm saying is that no one is automatically entitled to anything more than the service they are paying for, and it's horribly self-entitled to believe that the service needs to be retrofitted to suit a vocal minority at the expense of the vast majority. However. That doesn't mean that there can't be a service which is tailored to the hardcore players. They get to pay for a new service, then, and thus they can demand that that service should be how they like it.)
There's one small problem with your idea. You don't know that casuals are the majority. Who's to say that Cryptic wouldn't take your idea and run with it making casuals pay more per month so the game can continue to thrive?

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There's one small problem with your idea. You don't know that casuals are the majority. Who's to say that Cryptic wouldn't take your idea and run with it making casuals pay more per month so the game can continue to thrive?

I'm willing to admit, I'd pay a little more, for a 'stress free' CO shard...if that were the case.

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Additonal shards are also a bad policy due to community fragmentation, that leads to the game feeling more 'dead' then it otherwise is. You're taking a small (or moderate, I'm not sure, all I know is we're certainly nowhere even approaching 'large' from all I can tell) community and breaking it up into even smaller communities.

That's kind of a bad policy in general.

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Additonal shards are also a bad policy due to community fragmentation, that leads to the game feeling more 'dead' then it otherwise is. You're taking a small (or moderate, I'm not sure, all I know is we're certainly nowhere even approaching 'large' from all I can tell) community and breaking it up into even smaller communities.

That's kind of a bad policy in general.

Perhaps they could share the same chat channels?

Also...and I hate to bring this up...but do hard cores mix with casuals that much? It wouldn't really fragment the community due to the separation already being there.

In that way a 'hard core club' shard might not be a bad way for them not get so frustrated at casuals, and to game with like minded folks.

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Sharing chat channels doesn't do anything to give a visible indicator of a populated world. If you don't see other players in game with at least some regularity, even with a lot of chatter on Zone or a large bunch of mobs here and there, the game still feels 'empty' and a bit dead.

I mean, look at the difference between say... Lemuria and Vibora Bay. How often do you see other players in Lemuria, versus how often you see them in Vibora Bay? Which zone looks like it has more people in it, and gives a greater feeling of population?

Lemuria always feels like a ghost town to me. I see maybe 1-2 other people, and that's on the sub going in. In Vibora Bay... I'm constantly running into other people in the same general areas. Vibora Bay feels more populated as a result (mostly because it realistically is).

Compare that to Milennium City, though - there's tons going on in Zone chat constantly, but there are some areas (Downtown in particular, most specifically in low-populated instances) that still feel a bit dead and empty. But if you go to the Ren-Cen or Westside, there's people everywhere.

EDIT: I had this problem with GW, Rift, and WoW as well - some hubs just felt 'dead' in GW (especially late-mid game Prophecies, outside of Droks and the places it connects to), even if I was in the most populated instances for those areas. There were even a few where I would be one of maybe two people there.

In WoW and RIFT, I could go an hour+ without even seeing anyone on my servers when I was out doing my thing - though I could tell they were in the zone because they were in Zone chat. It made the zones I was in feel kind of isolated and dead.

CoH/V had a same problem back when I was still playing regularly (I haven't gotten enough subjective data on the matter to verify anything with recent changes); Some zones were utterly devoid of people and it had a disconcerting feeling on me - a feeling of isolation. Because I pretty well was - even with a number of Global custom chat channels where I was and could talk to people regularly.

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I enjoy a play style that rewards battlefield awareness and target prioritization.

Combats in which I need to pay attention to not just how many bad guys there are, but what they are, is more fun to me because in such situations there are more decisions to make.

Just adding HP/etc to mobs (like our current advanced difficulty settings) merely elevates the AoE DPS race, it doesnt really reward or encourage thoughtful play. Honestly the current elite setting has more impact on how you build a character than on how you play him.

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I do that already anyway. If I see a Brickbuster, I engage Ego Surge or Electric Sheathe and fire off a Gigabolt/Lightning Arc and eliminate them first. If I see an enemy I know will be annoying or problematic (ARGENT Combat Engineers, Manimal Rats, and so on) I make sure that they eat the focus of my initial burst or any crowd-control my character might have (Got none on Chthonic, but some of my others have those measures).

How does the number of abilities one have necessarily support or negate the ability to do this? If I had more attack powers, how would this be done better? I don't really see how.

Viper does this well. But it's very few enemy groups that have this.

I never said "more abilities" I said wider array of abilities. Such as a strong single target CC for tougher mobs, or a more loose AOE CC for weaker mobs that are in larger groups.

Essentially what I am saying is what AshenX is saying.

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Viper does this well. But it's very few enemy groups that have this.

I never said "more abilities" I said wider array of abilities. Such as a strong single target CC for tougher mobs, or a more loose AOE CC for weaker mobs that are in larger groups.

Essentially what I am saying is what AshenX is saying.

And I addressed that back on page 7.

Despite the problem being argued poorly (in a familiar way, at that), I think they should look into doing stuff to increase difficulty (or even add in a new difficulty layer for people that really want a challenge). However, there's a few issues that I'm well aware of that I'd like to point out:

1) Most of the changes, at the most functional level, require adding new mob behaviors. From some recent discussions in how powers work, and the PVP gear update, I don't think that this portion of the codebase was handled any better then it sounds like powers/gear are. To wit, I have a bad feeling that any sweeping changes to mob behavior at any point is going to be incredibly time consuming and likely revolve around going through and hooking up new behaviors on an almost individual mob basis or at least on a per-enemy-group basis. That's a redonkulous amount of work. I sure hope I get proven wrong on that one.

2) Even barring that, it still requires a lot of time investment hooking up a few things that are generally overlooked in mob behavior - specific conditional triggers. I'm not talking about 'If Target = Blocking' stuff, I mean basic things like 'Difficulty Scale set to OhSweetGeebusThey'reGonnaEatMe' or not. Otherwise, it's not locking that behavior to that difficulty - it's changing how all of the mobs think, act, and work. That goes contrary to all of the statements that any change in difficulty should leave Normal alone. That alone adds additional developer time into this.

This is all basic level stuff. Any change that does happen, isn't going to happen anytime soon and it may cut too heavily into development time somewhere along the line that could be better spent on things to keep the majority of the playerbase happier. I'm not even going to speculate on who exactly the 'majority' is - that's beyond the scope of my point.

The point in a concise fashion: This is core engine material we're asking for here, and that stuff in specific is time-consuming.

All that said, I really hope someone in the development team is at least looking into doing something in this direction. It'd certainly make me a bit happier as a player, and I can't really be the only one. Cleaning up some of the mob code (pathing - for the love of baby raptor Jesus, have someone look at pathing) might be a good idea at this point anyway.

I don't expect anything soon though.

I'm not disagreeing, except maybe with Normal needing to change (if I'm misrepresenting you there, I dutifully apologize). I am in full agreement that at the very least, Elite needs to be looked at. However, I'm also being cautiously realistic about the problem, instead of just claiming it's bad and needs to be fixed.

You may be looking for the wrong game here, honestly - there's only two games on the current market that I think get anywhere close to appropriate mob behaviors (Guild Wars, WoW) and one of those (the latter) does it in an absolutely ******** fashion (over-punishing) and the other isn't something I'd recommend for casual or even 'normal' gamers (as while it's not designed to over-punish bad mistakes, it can set up some truly ridiculous situations that are above a lot of people).

You're seriously looking at the wrong game if you think it's going to happen anytime soon.

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I think the first thing CO needs to do is figure out whether combat should be fast and frantic intelligent combat, or massive mindless hack n slash.

I would personally like the option to give myself "fake" teammates to artificially increase spawn size.

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One thing that bothers me as how useless crowd control is in this game as it is quicker and more efficient just to kill them. I would love for it to work on all mobs and the same for debuffs, as an alternative to killing and/or healing damage taken. It would make the game a lot more fun if we could mitigate damage through crowd control and debuffs and not just zerg all the mobs.

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I enjoy a play style that rewards battlefield awareness and target prioritization.

Combats in which I need to pay attention to not just how many bad guys there are, but what they are, is more fun to me because in such situations there are more decisions to make.

This sounds good! It wold also make for some very interesting solo situations as well.

I never said "more abilities" I said wider array of abilities. Such as a strong single target CC for tougher mobs, or a more loose AOE CC for weaker mobs that are in larger groups.

I'd love more powers as well. More choice is always a good thing to have. (Like how force needs more...everything...so does archery >_<)

One thing that bothers me as how useless crowd control is in this game as it is quicker and more efficient just to kill them. I would love for it to work on all mobs and the same for debuffs, as an alternative to killing and/or healing damage taken. It would make the game a lot more fun if we could mitigate damage through crowd control and debuffs and not just zerg all the mobs.

Hell yea! I've just begun exploring the fun of Telepathy and man...those crowd control spells are fun to use but...not as useful as just spamming Ego sprites and running around. >_<

See guys when ya put it like that. Well then it makes sense, and it's something that this casual player agrees with.

I'd love a good mix of strategy and blowing stuff to bits with my super powers. Fun with a side of strategy...but without the hair pulling frustration of needing 'cookie cutter' builds just to survive.

Perhaps we do need a level beyond Elite, where the AI is amped up a bit, and things are brick-to-face hard.

We just need to make it work so that it does not disturb the fun, and tranquility, of Normal.

...though i will agree the mob AI needs a few tweaks on every level. >_<

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On the original subject of being able to tough it out with a Mega-D solo...

I'd honestly be way more impressed if it didn't take that long to do it. Just saying, any guy can max out their defensive abilities and only fight with their energy builder and eventually clear a Lair or kill Grond or *insert challenge in CO here* all on his own, but at that point he's probably took a sizable chunk of the day he could have been having fun.

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I enjoy a play style that rewards battlefield awareness and target prioritization.

Combats in which I need to pay attention to not just how many bad guys there are, but what they are, is more fun to me because in such situations there are more decisions to make.

Just adding HP/etc to mobs (like our current advanced difficulty settings) merely elevates the AoE DPS race, it doesnt really reward or encourage thoughtful play. Honestly the current elite setting has more impact on how you build a character than on how you play him.

That sounds like fun... too bad Cryptic took terrain out of the equation by letting every Joe Schmoe NPC be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

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That sounds like fun... too bad Cryptic took terrain out of the equation by letting every Joe Schmoe NPC be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound.

"OMG .. the game is soooo easy .. i just need to stand on a building and fire onto the mobs because they
can't do me anything."

That would be the next "too easy" thread if terrain means too much :rolleyes:

And it has really happend in a lot of games that terrain has been exploited on points where mobs were not
able to reach the players, so that they in the end also gave the mobs the "skill" to warp to the players.

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10 Chars...

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This sounds good! It wold also make for some very interesting solo situations as well.



I've been saying this for a while and just now you agree that it wouldn't ruin your experience?

>.<


And it has really happend in a lot of games that terrain has been exploited on points where mobs were not
able to reach the players, so that they in the end also gave the mobs the "skill" to warp to the players.

In some games like **** and I think WoW or CoX, they just make the mobs invulnerable to damage if they can't reach you, making the high point useless.

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I've been saying this for a while and just now you agree that it wouldn't ruin your experience?

It all depends on how you present things.
Just going "It's too easy, nerfffff", doesn't bring much to discuss.

Ideas can be discussed, your feeling that it is too easy... not so much. ^_^

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You didn't look at my previous posts that presented all my ideas did ya?

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You didn't look at my previous posts that presented all my ideas did ya?

Honestly, not after the first few posts you made and the "fight" about the fact the game was too easy or not.
That's sort of the problem, even if I share a lot of your views and hopes on GW2, I kinda lost the thread due to too much derailing (DCUO, COX, GW2, SWTOR,...........).

BTW, the comment about "Ideas rather than feelings" is general, not just aimed at you, nothing personal.
I just think it answered your question.

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After spending way to much time reading this thread. It is very simple. Folks have way to much time to spend on stupid arguments, we should be finding a cure for cancer or something. And the game is a dynamic, you want to have more of a challenge, don't use builds that are made to be overpowered. But arguing over it is pointless.

Those who love to stroke their own Ego will, no matter how insulting it seems to others. :rolleyes:

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Personally I think the player numbers are growing.. I like it. :)

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One thing that bothers me as how useless crowd control is in this game as it is quicker and more efficient just to kill them. I would love for it to work on all mobs and the same for debuffs, as an alternative to killing and/or healing damage taken. It would make the game a lot more fun if we could mitigate damage through crowd control and debuffs and not just zerg all the mobs.

I agree completely.
When I first started building characters, I made sure to take CC powers. Then I found out all I was really doing was slowing myself down. That was a sad realization, as my favorite character type of all time in any MMO is the Dominator AT in CoX, which is a damage dealing AT based entirely around survivability through crowd control.

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And the game is a dynamic, you want to have more of a challenge, don't use builds that are made to be overpowered.

All builds are overpowered smart-alec. Unless you take something like an EB and 12 passives or something silly like that.

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10 Chars...

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If all builds are overpowered we have a vastly different definition of the term. The builds I get in my inbox saying "Kenpo help!" on a daily basis are anything but overpowered.

I think those of us that know how to build take that knowledge for granted at times given the builds I continue to see.

I don't agree that all builds are over powered, but I will agree that all builds have the potential to be over powered.

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All builds are or have the potential to be overpowered? I have to call shenanigans on this... If it were true, then we wouldn't be hearing the cries for "nerf this" or "buff that" because this or that wouldn't be having either the massive or tiny impact that it is having. Clearly some builds might be overpowered while some others are definitely not. I rather think that none of the builds are truly overpowered and need to be nerfed, but rather that the underperforming builds are underpowered and need to be buffed.

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All builds are or have the potential to be overpowered? I have to call shenanigans on this... If it were true, then we wouldn't be hearing the cries for "nerf this" or "buff that" because this or that wouldn't be having either the massive or tiny impact that it is having. Clearly some builds might be overpowered while some others are definitely not. I rather think that none of the builds are truly overpowered and need to be nerfed, but rather that the underperforming builds are underpowered and need to be buffed.

I wont disagree that there are a lot of powers that are out of line with each other. However, there are synergies that will buff the damage of under performing powers to the point of being OP.
A lot of the people I associate with actually take the time to do just that. I think the most outstanding thing ive seen done is Jeshu killing people with eye beams. Thats an accomplishment if ive ever seen one.

Sure its not going to be as ridiculous as say buffing the crap out of DC or something similiar, but the point is that it can still be done if the time is found to locate synergies and buff the crap out of the low powered abilities.

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10 Chars...

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Harder. Elite should feature attacks that break blocks, counter heals, and otherwise have ways to defeat common player tactics, and thus require actual tactics and good builds or teamwork to beat. (OP updated slightly).




So Elite should be like PvP? I'm cool with this!!!

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So Elite should be like PvP? I'm cool with this!!!

Except the op doesnt like PVP, im guessing because its too challenging.

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10 Chars...

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Uh oh. Queue insults of SkaReKr0 being smug and elitist in 3...2...1..

Abandon thread! Abandon thread!

lmfao. Just trying to make a point more than anything. I dont necessarily care for PVP myself, but I find it funny that someone complaining about the game being too easy is also complaining about it being unfair that "the best gear in the game" comes from the most challenging aspect of the game.

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I say we have another Launch Day Patch and make everyone happy.

Let's buff all minion-level mobs by a factor of 2, cut all player damage output in half, double all debuff durations, halve all buff durations, and remove all defense passives.

I think this should make the game just peachy-keen.

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10 Chars...

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lmfao. Just trying to make a point more than anything. I dont necessarily care for PVP myself, but I find it funny that someone complaining about the game being too easy is also complaining about it being unfair that "the best gear in the game" comes from the most challenging aspect of the game.

This ^^ times a billion!!! Not to mention everything he mentioned in what he thought elite should be almost describes how PvP is played to a T.

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I say we have another Launch Day Patch and make everyone happy.

Let's buff all minion-level mobs by a factor of 2, cut all player damage output in half, double all debuff durations, halve all buff durations, and remove all defense passives.

I think this should make the game just peachy-keen.

Oh man... Do you remember the chaos that ensued after the day 1 nerf? everyone (including myself) crying about how hard the game was (I was more upset about the travel power speed reduction). Even when they accidentally increased the mobs attack speed time, people were complaining about that and lets not forget jack fool one shotting people.

You cant make everyone happy.

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10 Chars...

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I say we have another Launch Day Patch and make everyone happy.

Let's buff all minion-level mobs by a factor of 2, cut all player damage output in half, double all debuff durations, halve all buff durations, and remove all defense passives.

I think this should make the game just peachy-keen.

I think this is essentially what Elite should be lol

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I think this is essentially what Elite should be lol

Don't forget to give them heavy resistance to AoE attacks.

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If all builds are overpowered we have a vastly different definition of the term. The builds I get in my inbox saying "Kenpo help!" on a daily basis are anything but overpowered.

I think those of us that know how to build take that knowledge for granted at times given the builds I continue to see.

Yeah, I see the same thing (probably much less frequently than you though) on a regular basis.

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10 Chars...

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I've been saying this for a while and just now you agree that it wouldn't ruin your experience?

>.<


Like I said it's 'how' it's said that really counts. Presenting a suggestion in a manner that does not...well...be a little harsh on to a particular play style...works.

You idea is more than sound. *nods*

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Man, suckas don't know about day 1 launch (http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/AAAAAAAAA).

I still haven't changed my position on it. I will defend the flame-shoed (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3BYQDIvpOE) decision to pull the trigger until my LTS runs out.

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LOL, where was that quoted bit from in your sig! I never saw that before LOL. You folks are killing me today. :D

Kurachi made a blanket statement about how unfriendly we are toward silvers. I only with that the signature area was large enough to have printed Pion's response in its entirety.

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=138280&page=5

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Heh. Launch day patch. I was about 1 week away from canceling my sub when they dropped the patch that tweaked all the passives and mobs to reverse that huge flaming train wreck. There is STILL damage left over from the game's first few months of wildly swinging nerfhammerism, Eyebeams and Mini-mines come to mind. I'm doubtful CO would still be here if they hadn't undone that mess.

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Heh. Launch day patch. I was about 1 week away from canceling my sub when they dropped the patch that tweaked all the passives and mobs to reverse that huge flaming train wreck. There is STILL damage left over from the game's first few months of wildly swinging nerfhammerism, Eyebeams and Mini-mines come to mind. I'm doubtful CO would still be here if they hadn't undone that mess.

+1

It's funny. That's another example of the exoduses that happen with Champions Online.

See, there are a number of times where I just thought that it had gotten out of hand, the bugs and the nerfs had made the game horribly unplayable, inaccessible, and raised a huge barrier of entry to the point where it was distinctly unfun for old and new alike. At those times, I left. Then when I came back?

"Hey, everything is sane and fun again!"

Every time, without fail!

It's funny, because there have been ups and downs. Like Vibora Bay (which made things sane) and Serpent Lantern (which made things insane). And every time I've come back they've always toned down the insanity, and it's become fun again. Every single time. So the only conclusion I can draw from this is that they have a panic button at Cryptic headquarters. When there's a mass exodus they hit it and rush to fix the problems.

The interesting thing is that since those ups and downs, post F2P we've been on this lovely strait. I'm enjoying it immensely, I'm bringing in new people whom are as well. It's like... this is it. F2P is the real launch. There have been no downs, and Cryptic have really hit their stride. This is what Champions Online was supposed to be, this is CO at its best.

And like I said, from past incidents like the ones I've mentioned, I think they've figured out what's best for the base game and they haven't screwed with it. I couldn't be happier.

The great thing of this is that I can now tell people that CO is not the traditional MMORPG, it does not have the failings of them, it is one of the new breed. I can tell people this with a straight face, and honestly, I can tell them that it has no insidiously evil bait & switch difficulty curves, it has no pay-to-win elements, and it has no enforced grind. (Grind is optional for fluff.)

And that's what people want, I think.

Because when I tell people this at the sites I visit, sites like Rock, Paper, Shotgun, they become much more interested in what the game could provide them with. Maybe it's because some of us are getting on, some of us aren't so young any more. I know I'm not. And we can't all deal with constant adrenaline rushes and unreasonable levels of bait & switch difficulty and grind. I think it's just gamers getting older.

I think these days the majority don't feel the need to be 'leet,' we just want to have fun. This isn't about rebelling against parents or authority, this is a hobby.

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<Everything you said but especially>

The great thing of this is that I can now tell people that CO is not the traditional MMORPG, it does not have the failings of them, it is one of the new breed. I can tell people this with a straight face, and honestly, I can tell them that it has no insidiously evil bait & switch difficulty curves, it has no pay-to-win elements, and it has no enforced grind. (Grind is optional for fluff.)

And that's what people want, I think.

Because when I tell people this at the sites I visit, sites like Rock, Paper, Shotgun, they become much more interested in what the game could provide them with. Maybe it's because some of us are getting on, some of us aren't so young any more. I know I'm not. And we can't all deal with constant adrenaline rushes and unreasonable levels of bait & switch difficulty and grind. I think it's just gamers getting older.

I think these days the majority don't feel the need to be 'leet,' we just want to have fun. This isn't about rebelling against parents or authority, this is a hobby.

Aye I hear ya.

Champions lacks cookie cutter build rage, gear rage, guild rage, and raid rage.....

...and I'd have it no other way. ^_^

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I think if CO gets the reputation for being the "carebear" MMO, populated by casual gamers, a place where you can come and chill and relax, play dress up, create any character you want and go out and smack bad guys around with fun, action-movie style animations and combat and without too much thought, a place where hardcore raiding, gear grinding, and all the "usual" trappings of an MMO don't exist.... that would suit me just fine.

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I think if CO gets the reputation for being the "carebear" MMO, populated by casual gamers, a place where you can come and chill and relax, play dress up, create any character you want and go out and smack bad guys around with fun, action-movie style animations and combat and without too much thought, a place where hardcore raiding, gear grinding, and all the "usual" trappings of an MMO don't exist.... that would suit me just fine.

suits me as well. I dont feel compelled to 'have' to log in if I dont want to.

I can create and work on viable toons without being logged on for hours on end.

the perfect blend IMO.

.

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10 Chars...

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I think if CO gets the reputation for being the "carebear" MMO, populated by casual gamers, a place where you can come and chill and relax, play dress up, create any character you want and go out and smack bad guys around with fun, action-movie style animations and combat and without too much thought, a place where hardcore raiding, gear grinding, and all the "usual" trappings of an MMO don't exist.... that would suit me just fine.

Somebody should make a sticker : "I'm a carebear and i'm proud of it" ;)

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I think if CO gets the reputation for being the "carebear" MMO, populated by casual gamers, a place where you can come and chill and relax, play dress up, create any character you want and go out and smack bad guys around with fun, action-movie style animations and combat and without too much thought, a place where hardcore raiding, gear grinding, and all the "usual" trappings of an MMO don't exist.... that would suit me just fine.

They could even advertise the game like that, and I bet you anything that the players would just come rolling in. perhaps showing a hero reclining on the beach with a tall cool drink, and a smoldering pile of villains off to one side.

Champions Online, log in, kick butt, and relax! ^_^

Somebody should make a sticker : "I'm a carebear and i'm proud of it" ;)

Heck yea! I also want a cape deco and in-game t-shirt design.

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Somebody should make a sticker : "I'm a carebear and i'm proud of it" ;)
Personally I'm in favour of the one minted in the Why-do-you-stick-around thread: "Champions Online: It's cheaper than therapy." :)

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I think if CO gets the reputation for being the "carebear" MMO, populated by casual gamers, a place where you can come and chill and relax, play dress up, create any character you want and go out and smack bad guys around with fun, action-movie style animations and combat and without too much thought, a place where hardcore raiding, gear grinding, and all the "usual" trappings of an MMO don't exist.... that would suit me just fine.

Would suit me just fine, too. There's plenty of other games I can play if I want to feel like I'm working (getting back into the MOBA scene here lately). I kind of dig one where I can pop on, blast things all over the continent, and feel good doing it.

That, and with most of the other Superhero-niche games going the FTP route... now if I want different flavors of the same feel, I'm not pressured to spend any money I don't really wanna. I'm finding it amazing that three games (I'm guessing on the DCUO front, as my home-boy plays it and we talk about stuff like this constantly) in the same genre can have such wildly different feels.

Competition is a wonderful thing.

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without too much thought, a place where hardcore raiding, gear grinding, and all the "usual" trappings of an MMO don't exist.... that would suit me just fine.

You don't need any of those things to not be a "Carebear MMO".

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You don't need any of those things to not be a "Carebear MMO".

Yeah .. PvP.

Normally i know the word from PvPler used against PvElers in games like Lineage or **** :rolleyes:

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Oh man... Do you remember the chaos that ensued after the day 1 nerf? everyone (including myself) crying about how hard the game was (I was more upset about the travel power speed reduction). Even when they accidentally increased the mobs attack speed time, people were complaining about that and lets not forget jack fool one shotting people.

You cant make everyone happy.

Dude...

I LOVED the launch day patch.

Dig up my posts from then, I was a massive cryptic fanboy, and I was loving the game.


Haivng to be careful to not overpull,
Having to manage TTL vs My DPS.
Hainvg to wait for Active Offense/Defense powers to rehcarge between spawns.
Making sure you had a Stim packs and Shield devices in your C1-5 slots?


It was heaven. God the game was so much fun during that week.

Before they totally gutted the Gadroon, they were my favorite group of mobs to fight.

OH GOD Kro, remember when you actually NEEDED CC?
I mean really needed some control to win fights?

Hold the big nasty, kill the minions then gear up for the skin of your teeth fight when the hold failled?

H.E.A.V.E.N!

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Dude...

I LOVED the launch day patch.

Dig up my posts from then, I was a massive cryptic fanboy, and I was loving the game.

Haivng to be careful to not overpull,
Having to manage TTL vs My DPS.
Hainvg to wait for Active Offense/Defense powers to rehcarge between spawns.

It was heaven. God the game was so much fun during that week.

Before they totally gutted the Gadroon, they were my favorite group of mobs to fight.

Dude...

There are SO many games out there that would fit your definition of fun...

It's just, CO isn't one of them...

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Dude...

There are SO many games out there that would fit your definition of fun...

It's just, CO isn't one of them...

You just don't see the logic behind that.

He likes to do things that you don't like to do .. and so he also likes to play games that he doesn't like :D

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Dude...

I LOVED the launch day patch.

Dig up my posts from then, I was a massive cryptic fanboy, and I was loving the game.


Haivng to be careful to not overpull,
Having to manage TTL vs My DPS.
Hainvg to wait for Active Offense/Defense powers to rehcarge between spawns.
Making sure you had a Stim packs and Shield devices in your C1-5 slots?


It was heaven. God the game was so much fun during that week.

Before they totally gutted the Gadroon, they were my favorite group of mobs to fight.

OH GOD Kro, remember when you actually NEEDED CC?
I mean really needed some control to win fights?

Hold the big nasty, kill the minions then gear up for the skin of your teeth fight when the hold failled?

H.E.A.V.E.N!

I historically and currently agree with this statement.

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Before they totally gutted the Gadroon, they were my favorite group of mobs to fight.


I remember going into Fallen Sun Forest and getting my arse whooped by the Gadroon. Then the nerf bat came along and made it not challenging.

I think they were the hardest group to fight.

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I remember going into Fallen Sun Forest and getting my arse whooped by the Gadroon. Then the nerf bat came along and made it not challenging.

I think they were the hardest group to fight.

A lot of people ran into them in MC on the invasion/disguise arc.

Gadroon were awesome back then. They had the good version of ebon rift that had like a billion points of reverse repel.

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I historically and currently agree with this statement.

I historically and vehemently disagree with this statement.

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OH GOD Kro, remember when you actually NEEDED CC?
I mean really needed some control to win fights?

Hold the big nasty, kill the minions then gear up for the skin of your teeth fight when the hold failled?

H.E.A.V.E.N!

Since you specifically mention using CC on the "big nasty" I'm guessing you mean Villains and Master Villains, since as far as I know most Super Villains are immune to CC.....

So what you're saying is you want to play a super hero MMO in which Batman has to be very afraid of the Joker's henchmen? I now understand completely where you're coming from, and I can honestly say I completely disagree with you.

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My hats off to Last for reviving this age old argument, which really is on topic in this thread (minus points for being on topic).

Some people like their games to be at least slightly challenging. Otherwise I'd still be playing candyland ;)

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10 Chars...

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When I want hardcore I go spar IRL.

Stop using PFF, imoo.

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I think what The_Last is saying is that back then Batman had to stall Bane in order to deal with his henchman first and then fight Bane one on one in a fight of consequence.

Contrast that with now where Batman can fight several Bane's and henchman at once without even needing first aid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsNvyhT_R-0

Personally, I like the easier version better because it's more accessible to a larger audience. When I want hardcore I go spar IRL.

Honestly no one got batman better than Rocksteady:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9J4ZQ7mxqY

In order to beat the challenge maps in this game on Totally insane you must balance your DPS with Crowd Contorl, or fail.

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I think what The_Last is saying is that back then Batman had to stall Bane in order to deal with his henchman first and then fight Bane one on one in a fight of consequence.

Contrast that with now where Batman can fight several Bane's and henchman at once without even needing first aid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsNvyhT_R-0

Personally, I like the easier version better because it's more accessible to a larger audience. When I want hardcore I go spar IRL.

Ah, that makes a little more sense. Thanks, Kenpo.
I still disagree with him, and agree with you that an easier base difficulty makes for a more accessible game.

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Contrast that with now where Batman can fight several Bane's and henchman at once without even needing first aid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsNvyhT_R-0


I wouldn't call MVs Banes. For that there should be some mobs like Mutated Mayor Biselle or Corrupted Amphibian
in the mix .. and multiple of them could get a little more intersting i think ;)

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I also disagree with Kenpo's point on basis too.

IMO batman is most interesting when he is not with the justice league (and supsequently power inflated), but when he is in his standalone series. Batman gets HURT in his battles with even thugs. After a night out in gotham he comes home bruised, beaten, and its part of his character that he gets up the next day and goes out to do it again.

I enjoy the fight more when I know there was a chance i COULD lose.

I haven't died in champions online (without using /KILLME when farming) in nearly 6 months.

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10 Chars...

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Comics don't often have MVs though. Usually it's just hench, maybe a V, and then the SV/cosmics.

You might want to say like Harlequin is an MV, but she's really not. Something like harley is more of a segue device or short duration attack for the Joker as she generally only gets batman to stumble once an encounter or hits him with a hammer when Mr. J has bats preoccupied so they can tie him up for whatever reason.

It'd be pretty boring comic writing if the first 2 pages of a fight were flawless smashing of a dozen idiots, the next 2 were taking down some sort of larger type character (Vs) and then you had 2 more of fighting an evil sidekick (MV) and then finally you get to the final 2 pages of fighting the boss (SV).

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Agreed. That game rocked, so much so I bought and completed the PS3 version and then got a PC version to further send the dev a message of support.



You disagree with which point? The point about you liking it when you couldn't fight the Joker and all of his men at once or the point about liking the easier difficulty?

You are a smart fella, I think you can figure out which one from the rest of the text.

I just find it incomprehensible that anyone would find it fun going into a newly released Adventure Pack Knowing that they will roflstomp it.

Heck when this new one gets released in november I am certain I am going to walk in and beat it on my first try on elite in under 2hours.

EDIT: Adventurepack = Comic Series. And lets be honest, Comic Series are just Adventure packs drawn out over 5-6 weeks to inflate the content.

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*pokes around* Wow, this thread is still going on, its 37 pages long already and I never even posted in it? :confused:

Ok, here goes... *gets ready to be flamed by the opposition* To be honest, my possition on game difficulty is the following:

I get what the game accesibility crowd is saying. I agree that its a good thing that this game is easy enough to be accessible to a large sector of the game community, rather than being limited to the more hardcore players. And the game's Normal (see the word I used there) difficulty should be just that--the exact thing that it is now: a Normal degree of difficulty that is accesible to the community at large. Now here comes the "but" part...

Elite
A group of people considered to be the best in a particular society or category, esp. because of their power, talent, or wealth.

Everytime this thread's topic comes up and I start seeing people argue against making Elite difficulty (not the entire game, just "Elite" difficulty) based on the notion that the game should be accessible to the masses, I start scratching my head as to the actual meaning of the word Elite.

Should the game remain accesible to all? Yes, this is a casual game and part of the draw is that its accesible even to people that aren't very good a optimizing character builds and such. Do I think that Elite difficulty should be accesible to all players? No, the meaning of the word "Elite" in the context of gaming refers to the "hardcore" sector of the game community. IMO, a game's "Elite" difficutly should not be accessible to anyone but the top players, or at least the very good ones (good in terms of skill I mean).

If we start making "Elite" difficulty accesible even to players that aren't particularly good, then the word "elite" becomes completely meaningless.

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10 Chars...

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Elite will always be meaningless regardless, as long as players that are any good continue to post Elite capable builds for people to copy paste. Skill level (besides skill in building) in PvE is largely irrelevent because mobs are stupid.

I will be happy when instead of trying to make the game "harder", they make the game-play "smarter".

As long as they don't, I'd rather stay on Normal, except to get those Elite exclusive drops.
No challenge? Bah, I don't play this game for challenge. I play it for kicks.

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Elite will always be meaningless regardless, as long as players that are any good continue to post Elite capable builds for people to copy paste. Skill level (besides skill in building) in PvE is largely irrelevent because mobs are stupid.

I will be happy when instead of trying to make the game "harder", they make the game-play "smarter".

Oh yeah, I'd rather they make mobs smarter than simply increasing the damage they make or whatever. It would be cool if increasing the difficulty slider would cause the mobs to get more creative, and start using special attacks, maybe even heals (though, I'm kinda apprehensive about heals because they could draw out the battle indefinitely, but the occasional heal would be nice). Maybe something along the lines of what the OP suggested here...

Suggestions for making the game harder:

(1) bigger numbers are NOT the answer
(2) As you increase the difficulty slider, enemies, especially master/supervillains and legendaries (etc..) should unlock additional attacks
(3): These attacks should be used *in response* to player defenses being encountered, not indiscriminately, and work to negate the defense.

Example:
An attack which is low damage but *if* it is blocked it breaks the block, deals substantially more damage, and applies crippling challenge to the player (preventing him from blocking for 10s). If it isn't blocked its just a low-damage attack. Attack should have a distinctive charge-up animation. The villain only throws the attack if its attacks are frequently blocked.

Note:
-Players can adapt to the attack to reduce its usefulness.
-A devastatingly successful (that is, hits a player who is blocking) blow by the power negates one of a player's defensive options both against the attack and for additional time afterwards.

As long as they don't, I'd rather stay on Normal, except to get those Elite exclusive drops.
No challenge? Bah, I don't play this game for challenge. I play it for kicks.

Still, playing for kicks is what Normal difficult is about. Making Elite difficulty easy enough for people to still cruise around missions kinda makes me wonder why have a difficulty slide at all.

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Making Elite difficulty easy enough for people to still cruise around missions kinda makes me wonder why have a difficulty slide at all.
And an elite difficulty really makes me wonder why we have customization at all.

[Archived Post]

Dude...

I LOVED the launch day patch.

Dig up my posts from then, I was a massive cryptic fanboy, and I was loving the game.


Haivng to be careful to not overpull,
Having to manage TTL vs My DPS.
Hainvg to wait for Active Offense/Defense powers to rehcarge between spawns.
Making sure you had a Stim packs and Shield devices in your C1-5 slots?


It was heaven. God the game was so much fun during that week.

Before they totally gutted the Gadroon, they were my favorite group of mobs to fight.

OH GOD Kro, remember when you actually NEEDED CC?
I mean really needed some control to win fights?

Hold the big nasty, kill the minions then gear up for the skin of your teeth fight when the hold failled?

H.E.A.V.E.N!
Thats how DDO was at the start in 2006.

It nearly killed the game. The number of players was non stop droping.

In 2009, when DDO went Freemium, they made game 10 times easier. Casual settings (something thats below Normal), auto dungeon scaling based on the number of party members and your class, NPC henchman to help you (can be bought ingame, not just Store) and redesigning many quests to make them easier.

When they did that, they (Turbine) reported a +400% income and double the number of subs (VIP).

Theres more Carebears on this planet then Hardcores.

Im not against Hardcore, been there done that, but it is NOT fun when you duo a quest with a friend, no healer (in Trinity based game) and someone joins and tells you "THANK YOU! I've been waiting for 3 weeks to get someone to finish that quest". Not a joke about 3 weeks. Poor dude was waiting for 3 weeks do that quest. There really was no one around and nothing was soloable if you didn't had a very specific build and crazy gear on top of that.

Carebear is better. Servers are running, many people around. Its is easier, but atleast it *is*.

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Just as long as "making the mobs smarter" doesn't equate to otherwise normal henchmen being able to leap tall buildings in a single bound... Oh, wait, they already did that bit of idiocy. "But otherwise you can just snipe them from rooftops or while flying." Well, yeah, that's called tactics and is an important part of intelligent gameplay. How about having the henchmen dive for cover once the sniping starts? OR, for pete's sake just let the henchmen die. There's a reason they are henchmen, they are too stupid to be master villains. Give the villains and above the smarts to dive for cover. I'm all for more intelligent villains using better and better tactics as they improve in rank from henchmen to villains to master villains to super villains... just as long as I am permitted to use tactics against them. Currently I'm not permitted to use tactics that should be perfectly viable. Terrain means NOTHING when the lowliest henchman is able to jump 3 stories to reach you. Cover means next to nothing if it doesn't completely break line of sight. Crowd control I no longer bother with because it is useless against the the mobs it is most needed against and a waste of time against anything lower.

[Archived Post]

Dude...

I LOVED the launch day patch.

Dig up my posts from then, I was a massive cryptic fanboy, and I was loving the game.


Haivng to be careful to not overpull,
Having to manage TTL vs My DPS.
Hainvg to wait for Active Offense/Defense powers to rehcarge between spawns.
Making sure you had a Stim packs and Shield devices in your C1-5 slots?


It was heaven. God the game was so much fun during that week.

Before they totally gutted the Gadroon, they were my favorite group of mobs to fight.

OH GOD Kro, remember when you actually NEEDED CC?
I mean really needed some control to win fights?

Hold the big nasty, kill the minions then gear up for the skin of your teeth fight when the hold failled?

H.E.A.V.E.N!

I played very little during headstart so I assumed that the difficulty level from launch day was where things were supposed to be. I was rather disappointed when things were changed to be easier later on. At that time I wasnt participating in the forums, and generally didnt pay attention to zone chat, so I had no idea that there was an uproar. All I noted was that the game was exciting and became gradually less so.

[Archived Post]

I played at launch day and, well, I had difficulty with my first character, which was shadow form/lifedrain, and then proceeded to switch to a gadgeteer/regen build that roflstomped everything. It took a while before I got the game well enough to play with an offensive passive, though my third character was a healer with march of the dead, aura of radiant protection, and arcane vitality, and you really didn't need more than that even back then. The game at launch, for players who didn't understand the game, was challenging, but hardly unplayable.

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Carebear is better. Servers are running, many people around. Its is easier, but atleast it *is*.

My question is wheres all the Scarebears gone?

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Elite will always be meaningless regardless, as long as players that are any good continue to post Elite capable builds for people to copy paste. Skill level (besides skill in building) in PvE is largely irrelevent because mobs are stupid.

This is another reason why I should delete my posted PFF build. :P Protogen is very Elite capable and uses PFF.

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You are a smart fella, I think you can figure out which one from the rest of the text.

I just find it incomprehensible that anyone would find it fun going into a newly released Adventure Pack Knowing that they will roflstomp it.

Heck when this new one gets released in november I am certain I am going to walk in and beat it on my first try on elite in under 2hours.

EDIT: Adventurepack = Comic Series. And lets be honest, Comic Series are just Adventure packs drawn out over 5-6 weeks to inflate the content.

And I find it incomprehensible that anyone would actually want to lose to a bunch of pixels instead of roflstomping them.

And I'm with Kenpo on the RL fighting.

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And I find it incomprehensible that anyone would actually want to lose to a bunch of pixels instead of roflstomping them.

And I'm with Kenpo on the RL fighting.

It's not wanting to lose it's wanting the realization that you actually might lose.

Having your block broken or your heals reduced or your energy generation stunted during a fight adds a bit of "aw crap this is gonna hurt". Which is something that the game generally doesn't have unless you intentionally set your build to be underwhelming but still able to perform...OR play certain ATs.

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I'll be honest. I've been running PFF on Protogen almost the entire time that I've had him. (Creation date is Sept. 12, 2009). He had a bout of 3-4 months total where he was using AoRP or KM. Switched back to PFF from KM for two reasons:

1) To prove that PFF could be tanked with. (with very low damage and lots of micro-management)

2) To keep the game interesting by gimping my character to create the illusion of a challenge.

It's my understanding that the general feelings of the player base *is* that the game is too easy. Well, make a character that uses PFF. Come to the "challenging" side of the spectrum. (It's still not challenging.)

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It's my understanding that the general feelings of the player base *is* that the game is too easy.
I don't think that's true at all. There's a few very vocal individuals on the forums that loudly proclaim that the game is too easy for them and for everyone else, but I don't think you can say that the general feelings of the player base agrees with that.

I for one think the game is just right - I still die on occasion when I play, even with my more optimized builds. And I normally don't touch the difficulty slider.

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10 Chars...

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And I find it incomprehensible that anyone would actually want to lose to a bunch of pixels instead of roflstomping them.

And I'm with Kenpo on the RL fighting.

There is a twilight zone episode where a gambler dies.
He wakes up in a beautiful hotel room where he is given:

Women, without the chase.
Booze, for free.
All manner of casino games, where he always wins.

By the end of the episode, he realizes he is in hell, because
Without the chance, (no matter how slim) to lose and fail, there is no point to it all.


The only place I fail In champs is designing costumes....

Oh and sparing is not fighting. It also lacks the rush you get from the possibility of true defeat.

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I don't think that's true at all. There's a few very vocal individuals on the forums that loudly proclaim that the game is too easy for them and for everyone else, but I don't think you can say that the general feelings of the player base agrees with that.

I for one think the game is just right - I still die on occasion when I play, even with my more optimized builds. And I normally don't touch the difficulty slider.

Just because there's a few very vocal individuals who feel the game is too easy doesn't mean more, quiet, individuals feel the same way. :)

Additionally the statement I made in regards to the "general feelings of the player base" is completely opinion. An opinion that I have come to whenever I am on a PuG and we end up disbanding so that the game is a little more challenging. Sorry for not clarifying.

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There is a twilight zone episode where a gambler dies.
He wakes up in a beautiful hotel room where he is given:

Women, without the chase.
Booze, for free.
All manner of casino games, where he always wins.

By the end of the episode, he realizes he is in hell, because
Without the chance, (no matter how slim) to lose and fail, there is no point to it all.



'A Nice Place to Visit' - Air date April 15, 1960. ( Sebastian Cabot with white hair and beard always throws me. Only those of you old enough to have seen 'Family Affair' will understand. :) )


Oh and sparing is not fighting. It also lacks the rush you get from the possibility of true defeat.


In full contact karate, boxing, aikido, etc. you can still get severely injured just from 'sparring'.

Unless by true defeat you mean 'death' which in that case...

You've got some serious adrenaline junky issues.

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10 Chars...

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And I find it incomprehensible that anyone would actually want to lose to a bunch of pixels instead of roflstomping them.

And I'm with Kenpo on the RL fighting.

It really depends on the game. Games like Devil May Cry, or Metal Slug, or any old school "nintendo hard" game are great being mindnumbingly hard, but Champs just isn't that kind of game and you really can't expect it to be because it isn't designed in a way that is conducive to being such. One of the reasons I liked the Megaman Zero series so much is because Capcom returned to the Nintendo Hard level of difficulty and managed to do it while giving the player all the shinies from the X series like dashing and wall jumping.

Games like that aren't based heavily around math and aren't a matter of who brought the bigger boots to the fight and started kicking first (actually, bosses in those games ALWAYS have the bigger boots, compare any Devil May Cry boss' health and damage to Dante's, Dante has basically nothing compared to them) and usually pit the player in situations where the only way to succeed is to press forward, even against overwhelming odds.

Instead, they're based around player skill, and in some of them it's completely (or at least theoretically) possible to win alot of the fights without taking a single unit of damage. Heck, in the Devil May Cry games, I've juggled spawns of enemies so hard that they never even got to fight back, just by using good positioning and using Dante's special abilities and combos well. There's actually a few mini-game stages where you more or less have to do that to get the special item at the end.

Dieing in games like CO ends up being more frustrating than not, because you didn't die because you missed a dodge, or because you used the wrong combo and left yourself open, or you baited a counterattack from the AI and failed to handle it well. You died, because you didn't wait for your heal to come off cooldown, or your gear or power choice is sub adequate, or some other irritating reason. If CO ever becomes the whole "wait 20 seconds between each fight for your cooldown/health to regenerate/whatever" type game that I despise so much, I'll unsub faster than Gabe Newell on a pie.

Oh, and don't get me started on the whole "super" thing. "4 henchmen to a hero" is not super no matter what. Even "normal" supers like Batman can crap all over a bunch of random thugs with guns. But we've already beaten this one to death, so I'll leave it as is for the moment.

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Even those old (and newer) "Nintendo hard" games aren't that hard with dedicated play. Example: A game that repeatedly gets placed at or near the top of "hardest games of all time" lists is Contra on the NES (one of my favorite games of all-time, I still play it). That's a game that myself and my cousin (@SurrealTouch here) can play through Co-op or solo and complete. We can do this without using the Konami code and we end the game with more lives than we start with.

Those games have the same issues. Compared to us, mobs are stupid. All games are just math problems and pattern recognition. The skill is in doing the math, recognizing the pattern and then timing your actions to complete the equation. The last part of that statement is something CO (and nearly any other RPG I've ever played) don't have much of. Action games do, by nature of being action games.

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Even those old (and newer) "Nintendo hard" games aren't that hard with dedicated play. Example: A game that repeatedly gets placed at or near the top of "hardest games of all time" lists is Contra on the NES (one of my favorite games of all-time, I still play it). That's a game that myself and my cousin (@SurrealTouch here) can play through Co-op or solo and complete. We can do this without using the Konami code and we end the game with more lives than we start with.

Those games have the same issues. Compared to us, mobs are stupid. All games are just math problems and pattern recognition. The skill is in doing the math, recognizing the pattern and then timing your actions to complete the equation. The last part of that statement is someithing CO (and neither any other RPG I've ever played) don't have much of. Action games do by nature of being action games.

Adaptability, we haz it, NPCs don't.

Would take an insane AI and CPU power to learn and adapt to each and every of our game-styles and react accordingly.

Not a surprise it goes way better to make an AI for a chess game than a shooter: players are forced in 1 action per turn and following preset moves only.

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10 Chars...

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...

It's my understanding that the general feelings of the player base *is* that the game is too easy. Well, make a character that uses PFF. Come to the "challenging" side of the spectrum. (It's still not challenging.)
Forums do not represent game. I do not know how many players use forums, but based on different names I see (posts) it's not even X% use forums, but more X players. And that X is not very big.

I'd guess a little bit more players read forums. But I doubt its a lot more. Well if you read whats in Zone channel ...

Forums represent only forumites, not game.

What I have seen in CO is the same as in any other given MMO game. Most just play the game and don't bother with anything else. They play it as long as its fun for them. When its not, they move on.

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You haven't sparred in any manner remotely similar to what I do if you posted this. This is beyond inaccurate. Suffice it to say CO has never required me to wear a brace, ace bandages, ice packs, eye patches or get stitches. Sparring has...repeatedly. Having your face stitched up? That's a true defeat you see for years later (I still have the stitch marks). Limping around for two weeks because you got caught in a fast heel hook? That's a true defeat you remember forever. Being woken up because you passed out from a chokehold? That's a true defeat that you might remember. Being woken up because that kick you never saw coming turned your lights off? That's a true defeat that you're lucky if you can remember. I've respawned in the locker room or in the hospital a few times over the last 25 years of doing martial arts.

In CO? The "true defeat" lasts as long as it take me to click a button.

Do you get the same rush sparring as when someone threatens you at knifepoint?

I sure as hell don't.

The difference between sparring and fighting is: You know you are going home that day if you are sparring.

EDIT: Lets bring this back to the realm of gaming and out of Prospect Park muggings.

Going to my favorite example: Halo. I am pretty Fab at Halo, PVE/PVP. I have played through all the single player campaigns of all the games over and over on legedary. I know the games inside out. the surprise is gone. Yet I can still pick up Halo:CE and sit down and play for hours at end. In the mulitplayer side its accepted that my chance to lose is due to meeting the players that are better than me.

In the single player, Bungie's AI is quite good that even though I know the layouts, and I know what weappons I have availabe there are times when I get surprized by the NPCs and defeated (rarely but it happens).

That slim chance that the AI might beat me brings me back time and time again.

"30 seconds of fun" is what bungie calls it.

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Those games have the same issues. Compared to us, mobs are stupid. All games are just math problems and pattern recognition. The skill is in doing the math, recognizing the pattern and then timing your actions to complete the equation. The last part of that statement is something CO (and nearly any other RPG I've ever played) don't have much of. Action games do, by nature of being action games.

The only way around that, in some "hard" games, are that they just give random insane damage numbers
to the mobs that can one-shot you. But thats just plain frustrating for me.

Things like your max health is 10,000 but a boss hits you with 50,000 damage happend sometimes
in Everquest 2 :rolleyes:

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The only way around that, in some "hard" games, are that they just give random insane damage numbers
to the mobs that can one-shot you. But thats just plain frustrating for me.

Things like your max health is 10,000 but a boss hits you with 50,000 damage happend sometimes
in Everquest 2 :rolleyes:

I honestly don't think Cryptic is capable of matching Bungie's AI in a MMO environment.
No one has done that yet (Maybe TITAN?).

But the mobs in this game don't seem to flee damage patches (or they don't last long enough to :) )
Only the Cosmics seem to use different powers at different waypoints of HP (or again the rest die to quickly to notice).

If they could improve the AI to even the level of City of Heroes on the low side, or tabula rasa on the high side, It would go a long way.

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I honestly don't think Cryptic is capable of matching Bungie's AI in a MMO environment.
No one has done that yet (Maybe TITAN?).

But the mobs in this game don't seem to flee damage patches (or they don't last long enough to :) )
Only the Cosmics seem to use different powers at different waypoints of HP (or again the rest die to quickly to notice).

If they could improve the AI to even the level of City of Heroes on the low side, or tabula rasa on the high side, It would go a long way.

Why did you remind me of Tabula Rasa... I miss it.
You is a mean person.

(If someone knows of a functioning private server for that game... I'm more than interested... Just in case)

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In the single player, Bungie's AI is quite good that even though I know the layouts, and I know what weappons I have availabe there are times when I get surprized by the NPCs and defeated (rarely but it happens).

That slim chance that the AI might beat me brings me back time and time again.

"30 seconds of fun" is what bungie calls it.
And that's generally only feasible to program in a single-player game. An MMO has so many other things going on, it's hard to find the CPU cycles to spare to do anything even remotely interesting for NPC AI.

Look at the WoW raid-bosses for instance; or our own Cosmics - it's not AI, it's just a scripted pattern. Once you learn the pattern (which may or may not be difficult), the fight is just tedious, not challenging.

Game AI is hard. It's hard in the sense that it's difficult to program right, and it's hard in the sense that it takes impressive amounts of processing power if it's to be effective.

It's much, much, much easier to just up the boss' health to ten million, and script behaviours at certain intervals or trigger points. And that's what people are used to, and that's what people consider challenging when talking about challenges in MMOs.

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10 Chars...

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It's much, much, much easier to just up the boss' health to ten million, and script behaviours at certain intervals or trigger points. And that's what people are used to, and that's what people consider challenging when talking about challenges in MMOs.

Let the fight take 24 persons 30 minutes, and give the boss a chance for one-shotting the maintank, and when
the maintank is dead everybody else nows he is also dead. I always hated this so in EQ2 .. at that point you
always just wanted to have a function to kill yourself. But it seem a lot of people like these frustrating type
of gameplay, and call it challenge to have the RNG don't roll a oneshot :rolleyes:

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Forums do not represent game. I do not know how many players use forums, but based on different names I see (posts) it's not even X% use forums, but more X players. And that X is not very big.

I'd guess a little bit more players read forums. But I doubt its a lot more. Well if you read whats in Zone channel ...

Forums represent only forumites, not game.

What I have seen in CO is the same as in any other given MMO game. Most just play the game and don't bother with anything else. They play it as long as its fun for them. When its not, they move on.

And yet you must have missed or skimmed past my previous post where I corrected myself for not clarifying and stating that it was merely my opinion.

That aside, I used to be one of those players that would just read the forums occasionally and never post (Unless I felt it necessary).

Now, for further clarification - other players aside - I for one can say that yes...this game has gotten way too easy. It was easy when I joined the beta in Jan. '09. Got tougher but more fun with the Launch day patch. That toughness, to me, just steadily declined since. Again, my opinion about the game being easy, experiencing teams disbanding to solo content because it was too easy. I dont' speak just about the forumites or gain any basis about my opinions through the forums.

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I'll be honest. I've been running PFF on Protogen almost the entire time that I've had him. (Creation date is Sept. 12, 2009). He had a bout of 3-4 months total where he was using AoRP or KM. Switched back to PFF from KM for two reasons:

1) To prove that PFF could be tanked with. (with very low damage and lots of micro-management)

2) To keep the game interesting by gimping my character to create the illusion of a challenge.

It's my understanding that the general feelings of the player base *is* that the game is too easy. Well, make a character that uses PFF. Come to the "challenging" side of the spectrum. (It's still not challenging.)

On point #2: I have done this very thing. Whisper, in my sig, is a PFF toon. I certainly can't call her a tank though! It has made the game more challenging for me, and she needs a few more skills before I can do elite with her.

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...(1+1)^1/1 = Final Credits.
Final Credits = 2?

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No, you really don't know this for certain unless you're playing point sparring/tag which I don't do. And as someone who has been at knifepoint, gunpoint and several other situations in my former line of work and the ghetto I grew up in it's an apples to oranges comparison. .

Exactly Its an apples to oranges comparison. You remmember that you are the one who started with the sparring comparion?

My point is that some of us like a bit of risk (real or manufactured) in their leisure. You get that manufactured risk in your sparring (i don't agree but lets leave that). I like to get that manufactured risk when playing the game.

A game is an activity engaged in for diversion or amusement played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck at least by my definition. If I always win what is the point of doing it?

Since you enjoy the macho sparing comparison: Its like playing with a partner who always throws the match, because he/she thinks it makes you feel good.

Final Credits = 2?

I noticed that but it wasn't important lol.

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Thing is see...I don't want to be forced to team. I know it's an MMO but there are lots of ways to be social in CO without the frustrations of teaming up with people. (it may not be frustrating among friends, but PUGing can be frustrating and not everyone has a SG of close buddies to team with)

There is nothing worse in an MMO than having to skip content (like 75% of the content), or miss out on content, because you work odd hours, can't find a group, or get into a group but it disbands due to build or size issues.

I really do believe now that uber difficulty is a good thing for CO....however preserving the Solo yet social nature of Normal is an absolute must.

The game needs new players, and it needs to attract new players, without new blood the pool for potential hardcore players, (and some folks would convert after playing the game on normal for a while), will get smaller and smaller.

Perhaps with the funding from new players and 'casuals' Cryptic could find the money to make and fully support a 'super ultra extra uber nayan cat code red atomic' level of difficulty that requires pinpoint accuracy with builds and tactics...and is only open to 2% of the player base.

As long as normal is left alone....it's all good with me.

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Thing is see...I don't want to be forced to team. I know it's an MMO but there are lots of ways to be social in CO without the frustrations of teaming up with people. (it may not be frustrating among friends, but PUGing can be frustrating and not everyone has a SG of close buddies to team with)

There is nothing worse in an MMO than having to skip content (like 75% of the content), or miss out on content, because you work odd hours, can't find a group, or get into a group but it disbands due to build or size issues.

I really do believe now that uber difficulty is a good thing for CO....however preserving the Solo yet social nature of Normal is an absolute must.

The game needs new players, and it needs to attract new players, without new blood the pool for potential hardcore players, (and some folks would convert after playing the game on normal for a while), will get smaller and smaller.

Perhaps with the funding from new players and 'casuals' Cryptic could find the money to make and fully support a 'super ultra extra uber nayan cat code red atomic' level of difficulty that requires pinpoint accuracy with builds and tactics...and is only open to 2% of the player base.

As long as normal is left alone....it's all good with me.

I don't think anyone here is asking for normal to be changed.

One of my biggest hopes is that The alerts at the very least are team only content much like Nemcon, filled with Tough style mobs at least.

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Dieing in games like CO ends up being more frustrating than not, because you didn't die because you missed a dodge, or because you used the wrong combo and left yourself open, or you baited a counterattack from the AI and failed to handle it well. You died, because you didn't wait for your heal to come off cooldown, or your gear or power choice is sub adequate, or some other irritating reason. If CO ever becomes the whole "wait 20 seconds between each fight for your cooldown/health to regenerate/whatever" type game that I despise so much, I'll unsub faster than Gabe Newell on a pie.

I gotta say, despite me sort of supporting the side that says this game is a bit too easy, I gotta agree that when I die in CO its often frustrating and infuriating. Sometimes I will die because of something I did wrong, perhaps I got too cocky thinking I could handle tons of enemies and end up agroing more than I can handle, and I'm ok with that--I can see where I went wrong.

But there are rare instances when I actually encounter a group that faceplants me so fast and efficiently its infuriating because it feels like no matter what I do its just a fight I wont be able to win--period. So I sometimes feel like difficulty in CO tends to be set at opposite sides of the spectrum--either its so easy I can cruise through everything, or its so difficult I can't stand a chance.

For example, just last night I was doing the mission where you go enter Argent HQ (think its a lv 18 mission), and there is this one encounter in the first floor against two henchmen and two villians that spam you with energy draining and knockback grenades. Everytime I entered that room they would spam these attacks and not only leave me with "0" energy (so that I can't do anything to them because I dont have the energy to use any power) but also start tossing me like a ragdoll.

I kept thinking--this is karma. I made some comments about the game's difficult at the forums today, and now I'm paying for it by actually facing an Elite difficulty encounter that keeps rolfstomping me. But the reason it was so difficult, was not because it was a challenge, but because I could do almost nothing except get tossed around waiting to finally faceplant--over and over again.

The only thing that kept me sane was that that was the only encounter that trully did that too me. I could handle the rest just fine. But that's not the kind of difficulty I look for in a game. I like a challenge, not being caught in an impossible situation where I get killed because there's nothing I can do to avoid it.

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10 Chars...

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You haven't sparred in any manner remotely similar to what I do if you posted this. This is beyond inaccurate. Suffice it to say CO has never required me to wear a brace, ace bandages, ice packs, eye patches or get stitches. Sparring has...repeatedly. Having your face stitched up? That's a true defeat you see for years later (I still have the stitch marks). Limping around for two weeks because you got caught in a fast heel hook? That's a true defeat you remember forever. Being woken up because you passed out from a chokehold? That's a true defeat that you might remember. Being woken up because that kick you never saw coming turned your lights off? That's a true defeat that you're lucky if you can remember. I've respawned in the locker room or in the hospital a few times over the last 25 years of doing martial arts.

In CO? The "true defeat" lasts as long as it take me to click a button.

Kenpo got there before me. But yeah. This.

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One of my biggest hopes is that The alerts at the very least are team only content much like Nemcon, filled with Tough style mobs at least.
And I for one sincerely hope they aren't team only; because that means I will get to play them much, much less than I would want.

Ideally, they would be "Requires team: 1-5" and scale properly to team size. That way we'd both get our wish.

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One of my biggest hopes is that The alerts at the very least are team only content much like Nemcon, filled with Tough style mobs at least.

I was kinda hoping for the opposite. My laptop can't handle teams very well (the more people are around me, the more it tends to lag, sometimes to the point of unplayability), and alters seems like a fun alternative to doing regular missions. Sometimes I just want to do quick missions with a finite story line, rather than go through long arcs where the NPC keeps sending me back and forward making me run to the same locations.

While I can see how some people would like more team content, making alters team only really limits their use for some of us. One comprimise I can think of though, is that maybe they should include both: team-only and team-optional alters. That way those of us that don't want to or can't team can get to try this new content, while those that want more team content (which could include me once I get a new PC) could also get what they want.

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Regarding games. Our knowledge and skill increases and always will, but the game's never does. So in a game that is as long lived as an MMO, IMO, challenge never lasts long unless the numbers are just so inflated on the NPC side that only a select number of builds can deal with it...and then it goes right back to being a glorified math equation anyway.

Every MMO I have played expands the NPC skillset overtime.

A new gimmick, a new AI behaviour, new NPC exclusive (cheaty) powers.
Honestly, to me this is what we pay the fee for, and its why I perfer MMOs over regular games.

I pay that fee in exchange for the devs providing a diversion that does not get stale.
MMOs used to be a bargin because while I was spending 180 dollars a year on a single game,
the fact that it kept my interest saved me from buying 10-12 regular 40-60 dollar games over the course of a year.

Yes, I do think its the devs job to continue to expand and challege its playerbase as the game ages.

Returning to the sparing side discussion, I still don't equate an activity where you are expected to be home for dinner to real combat.

When I was n basic training we had live fire exercises, yes there was danger, yes people could die during them (and thankfully we had no deaths during my military misadventure), but everyone was expected to be at Chow that evening. No matter how "realsitc" you make the full contact sparing it still lacks some element of the real thing.

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10 Chars...

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sparring

Man, I'd love to spar you. Oh, I'd stand no chance against you; you'd wipe the floor, walls and probably most of the ceiling with me, but I'd still love to spar you. Because after I regained consciousness, the first thing I'd say is, "OK, show me how you did _____."

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I agree in principle. I just don't think the challenge ever lasts long enough to matter. We're all smart people here. Collectively we're going to trivialize it in a matter of days at best because of the freeform system.
It took a good part of a year (and a nerf to NPC damage) before tactics for defeating Teleiosaurus were well known, and prior to that the methods for defeating her mostly involved abusing bugs. The original PTS version of Resistance was silly tough to solo because taking out the consoles only did about 2/3 damage to the overseers, which still leaves something like 80k hp to plow through while fighting two legendaries at once.

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10 Chars...

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Man, I'd love to spar you. Oh, I'd stand no chance against you; you'd wipe the floor, walls and probably most of the ceiling with me, but I'd still love to spar you. Because after I regained consciousness, the first thing I'd say is, "OK, show me how you did _____."

That's how my session with Wally Jay (http://www.martialinfo.com/in-memory-of/wally-jay/) went.

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10 Chars...

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how is this thing still alive? o.o

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Such a loss to the martial world when he passed away recently.

He was a great guy. I used to attend Jim Clapp's dojo, and once we had a weekend seminar at my dojo, and Wally, his son, Remi Presas, and George Dillman were all there. Wally was the big highlight for me, although my main focus was Arnis, which is Remi's school.

Wally was an awesome guy. Very humble, simple, and just fun to learn from.

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Man, I'd love to spar you. Oh, I'd stand no chance against you; you'd wipe the floor, walls and probably most of the ceiling with me, but I'd still love to spar you. Because after I regained consciousness, the first thing I'd say is, "OK, show me how you did _____."

Heh, me too. I'm curious to see what kenpo (the art) can do IRL. Sports stuff is fun to watch, but there's a big difference between RL and sport. RL fights, for one thing, do not last nearly as long as sport fighting. Sparring can be exhausting.

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It's all about the nut shots.

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It's all about the nut shots.

In a vague sense, yes. Real life fights are fast and quite brutal, but they depend on context. The objective is usually to end the fight (context determining how you want it to end.) However, if your only strategy is low-blows and you try it on an experienced fighter, prepare to get seriously, seriously messed up.

You should always avoid escalation if you can. The human body is capable of taking a remarkable amount of punishment, but it doesn't take much to maim or kill.

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That's when you bring out the cop car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRbjvnxVRMU

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I'd love to go a few rounds with KJJ. It'd be fun. I abhor pvp in computer games, but I suspect that's mostly because I get it in RL.

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I'd love to go a few rounds with KJJ. It'd be fun. I abhor pvp in computer games, but I suspect that's mostly because I get it in RL.

Conversely, I'm somewhat pacifistic IRL (I hate hurtin' people for any reason unless I'm left with few other real options) and despite that, as long as nobody actually gets hurt (or at least seriously) I <3 PVP/competition in anything. Field hockey, volleyball, tabletop wargames, video games... Anything. Don't gotta win (not gonna stop me trying my hardest though), but things are always a lot more fun when I have people to chat with/play against.

I'd totally watch that sparring session, though. :D Fisticuffs* of any sort are real faskinating to watch.

(*DISCLAIMER: Not meaning to imply anything about the usage of fisticuffs in this context. Martial arts is both serious business, and a serious artform. It's seriously just the way I talk/type (as I type with a more conversational tone).)

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Conversely, I'm somewhat pacifistic IRL (I hate hurtin' people for any reason unless I'm left with few other real options) and despite that, as long as nobody actually gets hurt (or at least seriously) I <3 PVP/competition in anything. Field hockey, volleyball, tabletop wargames, video games... Anything. Don't gotta win (not gonna stop me trying my hardest though), but things are always a lot more fun when I have people to chat with/play against.

I'd totally watch that sparring session, though. :D Fisticuffs* of any sort are real faskinating to watch.

(*DISCLAIMER: Not meaning to imply anything about the usage of fisticuffs in this context. Martial arts is both serious business, and a serious artform. It's seriously just the way I talk/type (as I type with a more conversational tone).)

Hehe, no offence taken. I'm not actually very competitive. Sparring/partner workouts are less about the competition for me, and more about learning, improving myself. To see what works and what doesn't work, within reasonable bounds. (as in, I'm not about to punch someone full force in the throat, or go for an eye-gouge after a takedown)

Comparing techniques, learning new things, that's what's fun. Saying "Oh, I did this move, but he countered it with that move, what could I have done to prevent that?" or alternatively "I saw that move coming and managed to turn it to my advantage, I guess that facet of training worked."

p.s. All the best martial artists are pacifists. There's no shame in it. Rather, you should have pride that violence is always your last resort. I'm sure KJJ would agree with the statement: "We learn martial arts so that we -don't- have to fight."

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p.s. All the best martial artists are pacifists. There's no shame in it. Rather, you should have pride that violence is always your last resort. I'm sure KJJ would agree with the statement: "We learn martial arts so that we -don't- have to fight."

Debatable, BUT I agree with the spirit of the comment.

I prefer the statement: Don't fight unless you have to. If you have to, win.

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Debatable, BUT I agree with the spirit of the comment.

I prefer the statement: Don't fight unless you have to. If you have to, win.

I maintain my self defense, and a general theme of the classes is: Never engage in a fight you have any chance to lose. If you are fighting you should badly outclass your opponent, otherwise you should be trying to extract yorusefl from the situation as fast as possible.

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I maintain my self defense, and a general theme of the classes is: Never engage in a fight you have any chance to lose. If you are fighting you should badly outclass your opponent, otherwise you should be trying to extract yorusefl from the situation as fast as possible.

I prefer the idea of: Never engage in a fight EVEN if you badly outclass your opponent. In any fight, someone is going to get hurt, possibly badly, and there is always that infinitesimal chance it could be me. I have seen highly skilled martial artists get their hat handed to them by beginners. The only time I will engage in a fight is if I am left with NO choice but to defend myself or my loved ones. However, if I am left with no other choice, I choose to win, which is why I study the martial arts.

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Debatable, BUT I agree with the spirit of the comment.

I prefer the statement: Don't fight unless you have to. If you have to, win.
Or, as my father always said, "Never throw the first punch. Always throw the last one."

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There's lots of variations on it, they're all very cool :)

I like "Never start a fight. But always finish it", as used in Babylon 5.

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10 Chars...

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I prefer the idea of: Never engage in a fight EVEN if you badly outclass your opponent. In any fight, someone is going to get hurt, possibly badly, and there is always that infinitesimal chance it could be me. I have seen highly skilled martial artists get their hat handed to them by beginners. The only time I will engage in a fight is if I am left with NO choice but to defend myself or my loved ones. However, if I am left with no other choice, I choose to win, which is why I study the martial arts.

I agree with the avoid fighting thing, but the quote comes from the viewpoint that you are in a situation where its down to fight or flight options.

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Champions should have ways of avoiding fights if you're a martial artist....

Or something.

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10 Chars...

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Champions should have ways of avoiding fights if you're a martial artist....

Or something.

Rocket Launcher, Sniper Rifle.

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Archery is a Martial Art right?

Evasive Manuvers!!

How about Gunkata!

Breakaway shot!

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My favorite quote on the topic?

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin' hard enough"

:D

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My favorite quote on the topic?

"If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin' hard enough"

:D

lol

Win.

Mine is along the lines of Raph's thought process. Don't wanna fight, will if I have to, but more important, it's not about hurting someone, it's about stopping the fight as soon as possible with as little damage to the parties involved.

Funny story: instructor was doing a stepping sidekick training thing and in the middle of class he just stops everyone and does one that covers like 3-4 feet of distance and says, "if you're far enough away to do this..... you're far enough away to run. Or grab a brick, or trashcan or something."

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I prefer Desert Punk's strategy to fighting:

"Remember, boys and girls, it's always good to know when to fight, and when to RUN LIKE A LITTLE *****!"

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Didn't he mainly lure people into insanely elaborate traps most of the time? ;)

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I maintain my self defense, and a general theme of the classes is: Never engage in a fight you have any chance to lose.
Rarely the choice at hand. The proper question to ask is "is the potential benefit worth the potential loss?" If you're considering fighting someone who wants to steal $20 from you, well, a 1-2% chance of significant injury outweighs losing $20. If he's after something more substantial, a higher risk may be acceptable.

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Sneak and Smoke Bomb. :p

*runs for cover*

LOL, Rrriiight, like Supreme56 said...

Champions should have ways of avoiding fights if you're a martial artist....

Or something.

...that's all I'm gonna say about the usefullness of Sneak and Smoke Bomb.

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LOL, Rrriiight, like Supreme56 said...



...that's all I'm gonna say about the usefullness of Sneak and Smoke Bomb.

Do Flight and Teleport count? ;)

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Didn't he mainly lure people into insanely elaborate traps most of the time? ;)

Yeah, and used lots of him-shaped balloons.

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Do Flight and Teleport count? ;)

HAH! They do, which only begs the question: Why take Sneak or Smoke Bomb when you can take a travel power like teleport in particular and perform essentially the exact same function, only better, at no cost, over and over again (unless you attack), even against enemies that are currently aware of you, targeting and attacking you?

I just wish Sneak was actually usefull so I could take it for my ninja toons :p

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HAH! They do, which only begs the question: Why take Sneak or Smoke Bomb when you can take a travel power like teleport in particular and perform essentially the exact same function, only better, at no cost, over and over again (unless you attack), even against enemies that are currently aware of you, targeting and attacking you?

I just wish Sneak was actually usefull so I could take it for my ninja toons :p

Or maybe teleport is doing too much instead.

Nerf it! :D
(incoming double derailment!)

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Or maybe teleport is doing too much instead.

Nerf it! :D
(incoming double derailment!)

LoL.

But really if you think about it, what should a stealth power do other than allow you to be stealthy ? If Teleport's supreme effectiveness at stealthiness overshadows Sneak, a power whose only purpose is stealth, then it seems pretty clear that the problem isnt with Sneak.

But more than anything else I think we need to focus on the real problem, a lack of freeform options in the C-store.
Hah, I out-thread-derailed you !!!

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Well, and this is just me talking and spitballing here, I would think Stealth would set you up for a sneak attack - just about every single pen-and-paper game gives you a bonus to hit your opponent when he can't see you or when he isn't paying attention to you.

Now, I know superheroes are a bit different than "normies" - Wolverine and other beast-like heroes can smell you, some people can "see through" an invisibility spell, etc. Maybe stealth in this game applies to hiding every aspect of yourself from detection, and this would result in a guaranteed critical hit if you remain in stealth for your next attack. However, if you get hit before your attack, you "unstealth," as obviously you're not remaining hidden from your enemy.

It might work like this already - I thought someone said it did (or maybe that was just a damage boost, and not a guaranteed critical.) It could make for some good power synergy with certain sets - can you imagine a dex/ego munitions character going stealth before firing off a sniper rifle round? Probably instant death for anyone but an LR user or someone blocking.

Just a thought. Oh, probably throw a cooldown on it so people can't just go "stealth -> Sniper Rifle -> stealth -> reposition -> Sniper Rifle -> repeat." 30 seconds, maybe?

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Just a thought. Oh, probably throw a cooldown on it so people can't just go "stealth -> Sniper Rifle -> stealth -> reposition -> Sniper Rifle -> repeat." 30 seconds, maybe?

You mean instead of TP->fly 100' up->antigrav boots->sniper rifle->tp->fly->boots->sniper rifle?

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You mean instead of TP->fly 100' up->antigrav boots->sniper rifle->tp->fly->boots->sniper rifle?

But... but... shut up, bunny-man!

Now I'm sad....

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Well, and this is just me talking and spitballing here, I would think Stealth would set you up for a sneak attack - just about every single pen-and-paper game gives you a bonus to hit your opponent when he can't see you or when he isn't paying attention to you.


That's a good point. When I use Guard from heavy weapons, I get a damage bonus on my next strike. I would think Stealth should give an effect like that.

My guess is the dev's are allowing PvP usage to limit the effectiveness of stealth, not PvE.

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My guess is the dev's are allowing PvP usage to limit the effectiveness of stealth, not PvE.
Stealth is plenty useful in PvP, it's just sneak that is bad. I don't really have any idea why sneak is so bad, it's not because of PvP abuses.

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That's a good point. When I use Guard from heavy weapons, I get a damage bonus on my next strike. I would think Stealth should give an effect like that.

My guess is the dev's are allowing PvP usage to limit the effectiveness of stealth, not PvE.

Giving it a cooldown would help in the PvP headway, I would think. About the only thing I could see bad about it is being an ego-based critical ONH, and I think it uses Dex to determine your stealth strength, right? Which means anyone taking Stealth most likely already has superstatted Ego in addition to it. Maybe make it a dex-based critical, as opposed to an ego one?

Either way, Stealth by itself - becoming "invisible" to opponents and mobs - is itself kind of killed off by teleport in PvP and PvE. I'd think making it do something else would only make it more enticing to pick.

Edit - is the power called Stealth, or Sneak? I'm talking about the "pick it while leveling up, then turn it on" thing, not what the mode is actually called.

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Edit - is the power called Stealth, or Sneak? I'm talking about the "pick it while leveling up, then turn it on" thing, not what the mode is actually called.
Sneak. Stealth is the mechanical benefit, and in PvP is mostly accomplished with teleport, evasive maneuvers with sleight of mind, or smoke grenade.

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Ok, then Sneak - have an advantage called 10d6 damage that enables a "sneak attack" for a guaranteed critical, which disables sneak and puts it on a 30-second cooldown.

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Ok, then Sneak - have an advantage called 10d6 damage that enables a "sneak attack" for a guaranteed critical, which disables sneak and puts it on a 30-second cooldown.

Hahaha. I imagine most of my DMs wished I had a 30-second (or 5 round) cooldown on that...

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Sneak already has a built in buff to melee damage. It's just kind of irrelevant because it's way more effort than it's worth to actually use it.

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Then make it for all attacks, and not just melee. An invisible guy's going to hit harder, whether he's using a sniper rifle or a dagger. Just gives him more time to relax and line up his shot.

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I'm pretty sure most snipers aren't seen whether they're functionally invisible or not ;)

Dodge chance increasing on charged powers is supposed to accommodate for "I can see you".

What might be interesting is sneak preventing dodge.

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I'm pretty sure most snipers aren't seen whether they're functionally invisible or not ;)

Dodge chance increasing on charged powers is supposed to accommodate for "I can see you".

What might be interesting is sneak preventing dodge.

Yes! The first sniper shot should never be dodged!

Not unless your target is a caffeine addict...