"Cheating"

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Why do people consider knocking the enemy out of the duel range "cheating"?

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Not cheating, just wasting time. The point of a duel is to see who can beat the other first, in whatever. The duel bubble is in place to stop someone from running away endlessly creating an infinitly long duel, by pushing someone out of it you make the system think they were running away and so it claims you won.

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Not cheating, just wasting time. The point of a duel is to see who can beat the other first, in whatever. The duel bubble is in place to stop someone from running away endlessly creating an infinitly long duel, by pushing someone out of it you make the system think they were running away and so it claims you won.

I see.

It's just a shame that I can't use my knockback powers.

Though I always assumed it was there for those duels that would otherwise end in a draw.

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Just a few thoughts:


If we blame KB, we should also blame teleports, invisibility, then pets, then any power or combo that we find "OP". Then never stop ranting...

Duel have rules known by everyone. I think we might accept those, adapt builds, powers, gear and tactics. And accept losing: no build is perfect.

Ego/dex chars have builds who ignore defenses and block powers, all the time: so why not having might toons with KB/ring out?

Last but not least, if you play well, you can elude KB. Not all builds are subject to KB effects, and a block at the proper time will more than often protect you from being threwn away.

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Though I always assumed it was there for those duels that would otherwise end in a draw.
Yes thats probably one of the myriad of reasons for it, but its certainly not there so you can punch someone out of it, no matter how fun it actually is :D

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I consider a ring-out a valid win. Preventing it should be part of your opponent's strategy.

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I consider a ring-out a valid win. Preventing it should be part of your opponent's strategy.

That's the way I always looked at it.

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I just disagree.

If we blame KB, we should also blame teleports, invisibility, then pets, then any power or combo that we find "OP". Then never stop ranting...

Duel have rules known by everyone. I think we might accept those, adapt builds, powers, gear and tactics. And accept losing: no build is perfect.

Ego/dex chars have builds who ignore defenses and block powers, all the time: so why not having might toons with KB/ring out?

Last but not least, if you play well, you can elude KB. Not all builds are subject to KB effects, and a block at the proper time will more than often protect you from being threwn away.
Not to derail the thread but I think you'll find the answer is most people don't care.

I myself despise armour penetration nuking, dodge tank builds and teleport, but that won't stop people using them against me. KB on the otherhand seems to have universal agreement on the issue.

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Not to derail the thread but I think you'll find the answer is most people don't care.

I myself despise armour penetration nuking, dodge tank builds and teleport, but that won't stop people using them against me. KB on the otherhand seems to have universal agreement on the issue.

Please support this suggestion: http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=127241

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KB on the otherhand seems to have universal agreement on the issue.

Not sure at all, really.


I'm myself not abusing it, just because it ain't fun when it works (yeah, it does not work so often). But when a duel is engaged to death, when my opponent dodges most of my attack, then takes the risk to lower his defenses to charge a huge attack and maybe hope for a crit, I feel free to charge roomsweeper and try a KB out, or KB away/fall damage/re-attack.

Once again, be careful and you won't be roomsweeped out. And if you are subject to KB all the time, you probably have a crappy build.

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I consider a ring-out a valid win. Preventing it should be part of your opponent's strategy.

Agreed. The bubble is part of the duel parameter. It shouldn't matter whether you leave it voluntarily or not.

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I wonder how far a particle mine/force detonation combo could throw someone. I've got that pair on a STR/INT toon.

I know the original Vixy Squishykipz build had a combo like that - I think Force Cascade + Force Detonation, and it sent one of my toons for a really long ride, maybe 100'.

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Just a few thoughts:


If we blame KB, we should also blame teleports, invisibility, then pets, then any power or combo that we find "OP". Then never stop ranting...

Duel have rules known by everyone. I think we might accept those, adapt builds, powers, gear and tactics. And accept losing: no build is perfect.

Ego/dex chars have builds who ignore defenses and block powers, all the time: so why not having might toons with KB/ring out?

Last but not least, if you play well, you can elude KB. Not all builds are subject to KB effects, and a block at the proper time will more than often protect you from being threwn away.

Agreed. I had a blast in a couple of duels with you the other day.
1:1 in KB victories for both of us, and 2:1 in KO victories for you. I'm still a duel noob. :P

And i think we both saw a player that complained Healing Drones were cheating. Evasive Maneuvers was cheating. Hell, there are some who'll curse you out and call you a *****(not joking, saw it in those same duels yesterday) if you don't just stand still.

KB victory is a victory. You use what you have. But KB powers need to be charged to have an effective KB, so that's their weakness.
Dex/Quarry toons mostly need melee range for effective spike damage. KB can keep them away, so that's the weakness of most Dex builds.

Right now, duels have a rock-paper-scissors thing going on.
Dex/Quarry toons > Might/Invul toons > Pet toons > Dex/Quarry toons etc.

There are exceptions of course. Saw a pretty effective Dex/Con toon yesterday that could probably take even heavy Pet builds.
Or Pet builds with great spike damage, like Kali(if i'm not mistaken).

Thing is, you don't get anything from random duels besides personal experience. No resources, no exp, no acclaim. You duel for fun. And with enough effort put in your build, you can always cover weaknesses that annoy you the most. But you'll always be open to something. If you could make a perfect no-weakness build, duels would make no damn sense whatsoever.

People that rant about "cheating" when you use legitimate powers in 1 on 1 duels have a broom up their arse.

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KB victory is a victory. You use what you have. But KB powers need to be charged to have an effective KB, so that's their weakness.
Dex/Quarry toons mostly need melee range for effective spike damage. KB can keep them away, so that's the weakness of most Dex builds.

Theres no balance there in your post since most melee spike builds have the same charge time as a roomsweeper anyway.

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Add Evasive Maneuvers with advantage, 3 second stealth. Can't see you, can't target you while you charge your spike behind his/her back. Profit.
Harass with ranged attacks and heal, letting your opponent relax and save spikes when he drops his guard.
Acro with advantage for quick maneuvering and getting out of melee range.
You get stunned by a lunge, pop L&L/Electric Sheath and go offensive. Suprises most players.

There's always something. And basically, most fully charged Roomsweepers can't knock you out of the arena from the center, so positioning is actually the most important thing. I fought melee opponents with a Dex/Int/Quarry toon that has no lunge, no crippling challenge, with R1 Reaper's Embrace as my only form of spike damage(ergo, crappy weak if no bleeds on target) and still won.

Anyway, the above are just examples how i won against Might toons that had and used Roomsweeper.
I'm sure you can find a million of your own examples on how to counter that. But that's the whole point.
Hell, it's just more exciting and challenging when i have to watch for an additional threat. Which is what duels are all about for me. Challenge, experience and excitement. Also, studying other builds strengths and weaknesses.

KB doesn't mean anything(besides extra fall damage sometimes) in real PvP gametypes like ZA, Bash, Stronghold where you do get tangible rewards. So i really don't see what all the hubbub's about.
-1 to imaginary duel e-peen or something i guess.

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You don't have to charge all major knockback. That's why I mentioned Particle Mine and Force Detonation.

KB can be really valuable as control in SH, but that's obviously not like a duel.

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-1 to imaginary duel e-peen or something i guess.
I personally don't duel, i just know the rules, I reallly couldn't care less what they are. i'm just stating what is currently the accepted norm in the major dueling scene, and right now in tourneys ring outs don't count as far as I'm aware.

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I have a char who can't kill in duels.. she just does't have the offense. So the only duels she's won are when the other person straight up gives in the towel. My Vietnamese guerilla tactics are just a valid win to me as if I'd killed the other side.

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I consider a ring-out a valid win. Preventing it should be part of your opponent's strategy.

I agree with this 100%. My force toon always knocks people out of the arena. That is part if his powers. If the people do not see it coming than they do not deserve to win. Knockback is every part of the game as any other power. Learn to counter it.

Block works wonders in case people forget they have it :D

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I personally don't duel, i just know the rules, I reallly couldn't care less what they are. i'm just stating what is currently the accepted norm in the major dueling scene, and right now in tourneys ring outs don't count as far as I'm aware.

There are no rules to dueling. It is the last man/woman/animal/thing standing inside or outside the arena wins. You use whatever power is at your disposal.

People might not count them but the game mechanics do and thats all that really matters.(for perks/records etc...)

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Ring outs are frowned upon for a few reasons:
1. Players usually duel to kill the opponent.
2. Ring outs are the easiest duel win if you build for it.
3. The current state of knockback resistance makes #2 easier.

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Well enjoy counting ring outs as legit wins in your casual dueling cause they will not count as a win in any T4 dueling tourneys.

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To each their own. I get why some people think they shouldn't count, but to me it's like saying bleeds don't count, or placates don't count. It sounds an awful lot like "I didn't build to counter it/don't want to maneuver around it, therefore it's a cheat."

This is what my powers do. What am I gonna do, NOT use Roomsweeper, and by so doing NOT build up stacks of Aggressor or Enrage? All because my opponent can't be bothered to stay well within the center of the ring?

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To each their own. I get why some people think they shouldn't count, but to me it's like saying bleeds don't count, or placates don't count. It sounds an awful lot like "I didn't build to counter it/don't want to maneuver around it, therefore it's a cheat."

This is what my powers do. What am I gonna do, NOT use Roomsweeper, and by so doing NOT build up stacks of Aggressor or Enrage? All because my opponent can't be bothered to stay well within the center of the ring?

With enough str you can knock from the centre to out of the ring, with roots, stuns and crippling challenge winning by knock out is just too easy. Not like bleeds or placates don't count, because they don't make a person lose the duel without a fight.

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Yeah, and I do get that. To be honest, I don't generally go for the ring-out, but I do consider it a viable option.

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So, in a tourney match with two durable Might heroes that can't kill each other, there's no way to really win.
For either of them.

GG!

I'm guessing these dueling tourney rules are the reason that people get butthurt even if you have an activated travel power during duels these days?
Or, if you even dare to use a barely 20% charged knock attack that sends them a measly 10 feet and they scream bloody murder even without being knocked out of the ring?
Players calling other players w*ores/f*gs if they dare use Evasive Maneuvers with Sleight of Mind?

Mind you, this is all from observed duels in Ren-Cen. All from lvl 40 players.
I usually lurk around to see if there are tourney "purists" in the crowd, or if it's just plain old fun, and accept duel requests after i've checked out the crowd.
Lately, there's just more and more "those are the rules" tourney types. A sad affair.

It's always serious business when players make their own rules. Unfortunately, it doesn't turn out well most of the time.

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So, in a tourney match with two durable Might heroes that can't kill each other, there's no way to really win.
For either of them.

GG!

I'm guessing these dueling tourney rules are the reason that people get butthurt even if you have an activated travel power during duels these days?
Or, if you even dare to use a barely 20% charged knock attack that sends them a measly 10 feet and they scream bloody murder even without being knocked out of the ring?
Players calling other players w*ores/f*gs if they dare use Evasive Maneuvers with Sleight of Mind?

Mind you, this is all from observed duels in Ren-Cen. All from lvl 40 players.
I usually lurk around to see if there are tourney "purists" in the crowd, or if it's just plain old fun, and accept duel requests after i've checked out the crowd.
Lately, there's just more and more "those are the rules" tourney types. A sad affair.

It's always serious business when players make their own rules. Unfortunately, it doesn't turn out well most of the time.

Thats taking it a little to the extreme side, Duel tourneys usually bar devices from use and anything that helps you to win outside of your own builds potential etc... When you ring someone out during a duel you dont get to see the true potential of ether build all that is seen is man that guy has strength stated pretty high. Do you get where i'm going with this?

Most PvPers take pride in being able to win one of these tourneys and are not in anyway trying to be purists. Its being able to say i went in there and beat everyone without using any devices or easy win methods, its a reputation thing. The same goes for winning a tourney for your Super Group, you don't want to be known as the guy or group that won just because he could ring people out.

Any powers in the game that you can pick is welcomed in any duel no one is saying that you cant use them or at they are cheating. I personally love evasive and use it in most of my duels and plenty of players use roomsweeper and uppercut in duels and win with out ringing out their opponent. Also if you are newer to PvP and need help with making duel builds or any pvp builds there are plenty of willing vets that will help you with at advice in COPvP chat channel.

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So, in a tourney match with two durable Might heroes that can't kill each other, there's no way to really win.
For either of them.

GG!

I'm guessing these dueling tourney rules are the reason that people get butthurt even if you have an activated travel power during duels these days?
Or, if you even dare to use a barely 20% charged knock attack that sends them a measly 10 feet and they scream bloody murder even without being knocked out of the ring?
Players calling other players w*ores/f*gs if they dare use Evasive Maneuvers with Sleight of Mind?

Mind you, this is all from observed duels in Ren-Cen. All from lvl 40 players.
I usually lurk around to see if there are tourney "purists" in the crowd, or if it's just plain old fun, and accept duel requests after i've checked out the crowd.
Lately, there's just more and more "those are the rules" tourney types. A sad affair.

It's always serious business when players make their own rules. Unfortunately, it doesn't turn out well most of the time.

I'm very curious what tourneys you have been going 2.

If a lvl40 player cries because someone used a travel power in a duel (besides teleport) they should be kicked in the left shin nice and hard. Right shin if they cry over a tiny knock.

The usual dueling tourney rules are very fair imo, even though i would like devices being allowed :p
Usually they have:
No devices
3 min duels after 3 mins it's judge decision
Teleport is frowned at
Ring outs don't count

and that's about it.

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Thats taking it a little to the extreme side, Duel tourneys usually bar devices from use and anything that helps you to win outside of your own builds potential etc... When you ring someone out during a duel you dont get to see the true potential of ether build all that is seen is man that guy has strength stated pretty high. Do you get where i'm going with this?


You do realize that your argument is a very sharp double-edged sword?
Actually, let me rephrase that. -> It makes no sense.

So, a player with a build that relies on Roomsweeper as an enrage builder/refresher or Uppercut+Haymaker as his big attack can't use it if his opponent didn't have the wits to be mindful of his own positioning in the ring.
(Consider that the new Heavy Weapons framework is also knock-friendly)

So how can you see the full potential of THAT build?

I do appreciate the way you're trying to sound fair and all. But it's void and null when compared to your previous statement which is quite condescending.(second post on the top of this page)
So, instead of making all COPvP tourneys indoor-only in locations like the gym or something like that where ring-outs are less likely to occur, you'd rather bluntly out-rule a legitimate part of many player builds.

So, quite honestly, i don't see fairness in that rule. I see butthurt.
Failure to adapt or even consider alternatives, put in polite terms.
All in the spirit of "fairness".

@crazyguy:

I'm not into dueling really. But i've been at a few tourneys in the gym where i happilly knocked and got knocked around from wall to wall without ring-outs.
But there's an increasing amount of players that use "those are tourney rules" as an excuse in any random duel gathering in Ren-Cen. I've stated some examples. Lurk around Ren-Cen and you may see some for yourself too.

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You do realize that your argument is a very sharp double-edged sword?
Actually, let me rephrase that. -> It makes no sense.

So, a player with a build that relies on Roomsweeper as an enrage builder/refresher or Uppercut+Haymaker as his big attack can't use it if his opponent didn't have the wits to be mindful of his own positioning in the ring.
(Consider that the new Heavy Weapons framework is also knock-friendly)

So how can you see the full potential of THAT build?

I do appreciate the way you're trying to sound fair and all. But it's void and null when compared to your previous statement which is quite condescending.(second post on the top of this page)
So, instead of making all COPvP tourneys indoor-only in locations like the gym or something like that where ring-outs are less likely to occur, you'd rather bluntly out-rule a legitimate part of many player builds.

So, quite honestly, i don't see fairness in that rule. I see butthurt.
Failure to adapt or even consider alternatives, put in polite terms.
All in the spirit of "fairness".

@crazyguy:

I'm not into dueling really. But i've been at a few tourneys in the gym where i happilly knocked and got knocked around from wall to wall without ring-outs.
But there's an increasing amount of players that use "those are tourney rules" as an excuse in any random duel gathering in Ren-Cen. I've stated some examples. Lurk around Ren-Cen and you may see some for yourself too.

Glad you finished reading my post where i stated then many people use knock power to the full extent to win duels without ringing anyone out....lol but yes the way you partially quoted me does make it very double edged. Just to state it again all powers are fine in duels the only thing frowned on is when you rely on ringout as your win button because you ether cant win straight up or just chose to proceed that way.

Duel tourney and there rules are part of what keeps the PvP community going and it gives many SG hosted events for players to attend. They are also praised and appreciated !!

Quick side note: most tourney dont happen in the ren center, they usually go down by the big fountain right outside of the center.

Anyways if you dont like the rules of a particular tourney no one is forcing you or anyone else to participate...same goes for duels if you dont like how they want to duel dont duel them...easy fixes!!!

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Just to state it again all powers are fine in duels the only thing frowned on is when you rely on ringout as your win button because you ether cant win straight up or just chose to proceed that way.



I've read your post in its entirety, don't worry about that
You just fail to see your own contradictions.

When you say "ring outs are not a win, that's a rule", that's a handicap, period. For a reason that i stated in my previous post. Some duelers aren't too careful about their positioning. YOU might aim to knock him towards the center of the ring, not outside.
But he moves a bit, you can't stop your charge anymore and he gets knocked out.
Is it your fault? No.
Can it happen often? Yes.
Can your opponent get knock resistance gear? Yes.
But you're effectively frowned upon for that, even if your opponent repeats the same mistake multiple times.
Players will hesitate to use the full charge of maybe several of their attacks. Which cripples them and doesn't show the full potential of their build. Fact.

Barring devices is okay i guess. But claiming that everyone can use every element of their in one moment, then banning build elements in the same post is hypocritical.

Personally, i love fighting Might/Enrage/Knock users. Besides the usual skill combos and rotations, you have to mind your own position in the ring. Timing your lunges to get closer to him/her and reduce the danger of further knocks if he comes close to you at the edge, instead of just using lunges for stuns. Actually relying on your own mobility and making it count instead of just your lunge, stun/hold/root rotations and spike damage.
Duels like that get a whole new depth. And while it takes a good amount of practice to fight against, i find it considerably more fun than fighting dodge/crit builds with dragon attacks and hold/root/stun rotations.

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I dueled a Might character on my 20ish electric guy a few weeks, ago. I beat his ass down 3 times and sent him running off to hide so he could get out of combat health recovery so he could come back and try again. 4th time he ringed me out.

According to some people he beat me. As far as I'm concerned I beat him 3 times.

Would I duel that person again? Nope.

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I dueled a Might character on my 20ish electric guy a few weeks, ago. I beat his ass down 3 times and sent him running off to hide so he could get out of combat health recovery so he could come back and try again. 4th time he ringed me out.

According to some people he beat me. As far as I'm concerned I beat him 3 times.

Would I duel that person again? Nope.

Yeah, but I've also dueled people who teleported away to go heal up every time they would have been dropped too, so I finally resorted to a Mightly Leap/Roomsweeper ring-out combo. I'd argue I won that one fair and square just the same.

As far as I'm concerned, the only rules in PvP are anything you agree too up front, assuming there's any talking at all. Otherwise, I'll use anything I've got. I even consider devices fair.

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Can your opponent get knock resistance gear? Yes.

Bad example..

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Not cheating, just wasting time. The point of a duel is to see who can beat the other first, in whatever. The duel bubble is in place to stop someone from running away endlessly creating an infinitly long duel, by pushing someone out of it you make the system think they were running away and so it claims you won.

FrozenBones was the very second post in this thread and he is right. There really isn't any more too it.

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Also:

Not cheating; the point of a duel is to see who can beat the other first in whatever. The duel bubble is in place to stop someone from being unkillable, creating an infinitly long duel. By pushing someone out of it, you make the system think they were killed, and so it claims you won.

Assuming that the "unkillable" thing is fixed, I think I would prefer a wall to a ring edge. Give it an interactive "Press Z to Quit" option, for people that want to surrender.

Edit: Actually it could be cool if the bubble had options, selected by the player that accepts the duel, including: ring edge, wall, or damage wall. It make me think of playing "World Heroes", back in the late 80's/ early 90's, or an episode of "Walker: Texas Ranger", where Chuck is wrestling some guy on a platform, over a spiked pit, for no reason.

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Also:

Not cheating; the point of a duel is to see who can beat the other first in whatever. The duel bubble is in place to stop someone from being unkillable, creating an infinitly long duel. By pushing someone out of it, you make the system think they were killed, and so it claims you won.

Assuming that the "unkillable" thing is fixed, I think I would prefer a wall to an ring edge. Give it an interactive "Press Z to Quit" option, for people that want to surrender.
Agreed, but it better dam do two things:

A) Not work when your cced. Before they introduced the exit locations in bash you could leave by walking up to the barrier and pressing z. If you got cced near it you couldnt break out because doing so would quit you from the match.

B) make you immune to any damage source when interacting with it.

Otherwise, thats a great idea :D