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View Full Version : what dc online is like (crappY)


Archived Post
02-16-2011, 09:53 PM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/2757-DC-Universe-Online

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 01:05 AM
I laughed until I cried... then kept laughing until I had to get up and go to the bathroom to keep from having to get up and change my pants.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 03:14 AM
That was fantastic. I always love the zero punctuation reviews.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 03:35 AM
Funny as usual - but please note: NWS!

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 05:25 AM
There a Youtube link for this?
And yes, DCUO is crappy.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 07:14 AM
THAT WAS AWESOME! Thank you so much for posting that. Totally made my day :D

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 08:58 AM
Funny as usual - but please note: NWS!

National Weather Service :confused:

As to the review, freaking awesome.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 09:32 AM
NSFW maybe?

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 09:44 AM
QUICK! Attack the competition on our forums!!

~HUZZAH!~

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 09:49 AM
QUICK! Attack the competition on our forums!!

~HUZZAH!~

I made a thread that got locked down, but in my defense I said nothing about the game or the game company but about the way the community acted.

*shrug*

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:17 AM
QUICK! Attack the competition on our forums!!

~HUZZAH!~

Ehh, Zero Punctuation reviews aren't really meant to be taken seriously. He'd likely review CO in the same way, minus the part about feeling like a sidekick.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:20 AM
Ehh, Zero Punctuation reviews aren't really meant to be taken seriously. He'd likely review CO in the same way, minus the part about feeling like a sidekick.

It's not the link.

It's all the DCUO threads.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:20 AM
Ehh, Zero Punctuation reviews aren't really meant to be taken seriously. He'd likely review CO in the same way, minus the part about feeling like a sidekick.

Ba Dum Tish!

ZIIINNNGGG!!!

It's not the link.

It's all the DCUO threads.

Let me laugh with you friend.

In case ya'll missed it, 8bit actually made a joke....for once. He actually implied DCUO is *snickers* competition

:confused:

....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 12:03 PM
The reviewer is right on the money. The quests in DCUO is pretty boring and uninspiring. It's pretty much kill X, go fetch me Y, loot Z amount of blah blah. The character creation is not even remotely as rich or indepth as the one on CO.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 12:12 PM
The reviewer is right on the money. The quests in DCUO is pretty boring and uninspiring. It's pretty much kill X, go fetch me Y, loot Z amount of blah blah. The character creation is not even remotely as rich or indepth as the one on CO.

Yeah, totally different from our kill X, go fetch me Y, loot Z amount of blah blah.

Wait...what?

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 12:25 PM
Yeah, totally different from our kill X, go fetch me Y, loot Z amount of blah blah.

Wait...what?

To be honest, as someone who's played both CO and DCUO to the level cap, DCUO's questing structure is much more noticeably repetitive. Every single mission chain follows the same exact structure. Every single one, no variation whatsoever. The lack of environmental diversity hurts as well.

I don't mean to bash on the competition, but it's the truth. Decently fun game all the same.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 12:29 PM
To be honest, as someone who's played both CO and DCUO to the level cap, DCUO's questing structure is much more noticeably repetitive. Every single mission chain follows the same exact structure. Every single one, no variation whatsoever. The lack of environmental diversity hurts as well.

I don't mean to bash on the competition, but it's the truth. Decently fun game all the same.

True.

I do like some of the mission content they have though, i.e. carrying victims to safety, defeating a villain without harming the body, etc.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 12:32 PM
True.

I do like some of the mission content they have though, i.e. carrying victims to safety, defeating a villain without harming the body, etc.

I only really liked the boss instances, which were fantastic. The vanilla missions dragged on waaaay too long, especially when PvP got involved. The Dr. Psycho instance and the Harley Quinn instance were both awesome though.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 12:51 PM
I only really liked the boss instances, which were fantastic. The vanilla missions dragged on waaaay too long, especially when PvP got involved. The Dr. Psycho instance and the Harley Quinn instance were both awesome though.

Early on, I was floored by the Gorilla Grond battle. When he beat his chest and roared, I had to go change my pants.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 03:18 PM
I'm just shocked he reviewed an MMO. 1st time, I think. I'd look but I'm off to play MV3!

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 03:24 PM
I'm just shocked he reviewed an MMO. 1st time, I think. I'd look but I'm off to play MV3!
He recently did one on WoW: Cataclysm as well.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 03:37 PM
He recently did one on WoW: Cataclysm as well.

A note, he's from Australia. They hate DCUO right now. Its been reported to some government agency down there because they charge $5 more for subscription. I'm not sure how Sony always gets in these messes. They're PR people need to go back to school.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 03:46 PM
The Beta of DC bored me. I felt like a second rate Batman or Superman. I'm over 500+ days in Champions. It's got DC beat.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 08:41 PM
I play both. :)

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:18 PM
I played the Beta. After the wow wore off after the first five minutes of entering Gotham City, the grindiness kicked in like a sledge hammer to the face. In short it starts fun but trash mobs start taking noticeably more and more time the higher up in levels you get. It's not really that fun when you can spend a huge chunk of time killing basic minions. And boss fights, while interesting when you see Harley or such, little more than bags of hit point fights with small gimmicks that happena t Y moment that you push X button or do X thing to avoid.

I mean in the Harley fight you had two things to avoid, her hammer smashing super mario bros style run around the room and her whirlwind move. Both of those just involved standing away, no way to interupt them. And Harley's AI just randomly went anywhere, not actually followed the player so there was no urgency to it. I didn't realize you could feel so disconnected from a main boss fight, but DCUO pulled it off because I never really felt that important since there were always either a lot of other minor NPCs there already (Harley had a ton of Gotham PD there fighting here) or a major character doing most of the damage and fighting for me (Scarecrow had Batwoman taking care of all the minions and doing most of the damage to Scarecrow).

There's just no way to feel like your own character and the major negative of DCUO is the fact character customization is barely a step above Age of Conan.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:26 PM
Yeah, Yahtzee isn't exactly known for being even handed. But, on the other hand he basiclly realled off every single thing that made me not want to buy that game and he confirmed ever fear I had about it. And not even a small glimer of "this aspect is ok at least".

I'm happy here, with the flaws this game has, no intention of jumping onto a worse game just because their character models are restricted enough to be able to reliably hold two handed weapons...

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:36 PM
I just love it when he calls it "Dreary Codswallop Universe Online". That line right there reminded me vividly (as in like it just happened) exactly how painful it is when Coca-Cola comes out your nose.

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:41 PM
I just read Silverspar's post and have to ask (having not played DCUO), do they really portray Scarecrow and Harley Quinn as bosses (in the way that MMO's use the term "Boss") ?

Archived Post
02-17-2011, 11:55 PM
I just read Silverspar's post and have to ask (having not played DCUO), do they really portray Scarecrow and Harley Quinn as bosses (in the way that MMO's use the term "Boss") ?

This is how the game portray's them. The boss of their particular story arc. They drop blue or even purple loot (I would actualyl farm them for blue upgrades). In fact the Bane fight you are fighting with Robin at your side, Bane's gimmick was he would run and hit a pillar causing random junk to fall every third of his life. Outside of that Robin would hold most of Bane's attnetion while you played DPS and sometimes avoided, if I recall, a giant hammer swing. Again, you just didn't really feel apart or like you were actually involved as being a witness to the fight, and trying to take credit at the end like douchey mcdouche at the end of Conan that stabs the demon with his butter knife and stands on it's head like he conquered it.

Most of the combat revolved around, as yahtzee put it, mashing the buttons in a combination. They tried really hard ot emulate Batman: Arkham Asylum and tripped up hard. A really good console player will easily keep most minions juggled in the air for most of their health bar, and even though this can make the fights simple, it also makes it tedious because even if you are regularly upgrading your equipment, they have a lot of hit points and this can take a while to take down one minion, and the average pack is 3 deep wtih up to 5 deep later on as far as I got. It really feels tedious. Hell, in Bane's fight I actually kept him juggled several times.

I am sure you can probably find some youtube videos of people on playthroughs to see this, and for my particular powerset (not all power sets are created equally of course) there was little reason to use it. Seriously, the game play didn't change at all from using my powers to not using my powers. In fact, my shapeshifting powerset, the werewolf was suppose to be a DPS form, but after some consistant testing I was doing the exact same damage regardless of wolf or human form so I eventually just stopped using it (it was butt ugly and the fact shifting actually broke my character anyways) and only every now and then (when I accidently pulled too many mobs) would be forced to use things like my quick heal. I never felt I needed or even wanted to use my powers, which sort of negates the whole purpose of being a comic book hero.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 12:17 AM
He's reviewed MMOs before. And in the reviews he's pointed out that he completely hates the very concepts that drive MMOs. So really, it's just for a laugh, he never says anything meaningful in a "review" sense.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 12:31 AM
Yeah, Yahtzee isn't exactly known for being even handed. But, on the other hand he basiclly realled off every single thing that made me not want to buy that game and he confirmed ever fear I had about it. And not even a small glimer of "this aspect is ok at least".

I'm happy here, with the flaws this game has, no intention of jumping onto a worse game just because their character models are restricted enough to be able to reliably hold two handed weapons...

Yahtzee is surprisingly even handed when you realize he's an equal opportunity offender: He hates on pretty much everything, because as he said in earlier videos, people find it funnier when he outright trashes a game. He'd just as quickly rip on CO as he would DCUO, because that's what we watch him for.

Mind you, DCUO is one of those games that even if you haven't played it yourself you've probably heard about its infamous problems, being the big name comic book game and all. So this ripping isn't without warrant.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 03:46 AM
I just read Silverspar's post and have to ask (having not played DCUO), do they really portray Scarecrow and Harley Quinn as bosses (in the way that MMO's use the term "Boss") ?

Low level ones, yes.

The Scarecrow one is actually very well done. During the battle, you are under the influence of his fear drug and the battle steps through a series of phobias.

He is a very interesting villain.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 04:08 AM
At the end of the day, its all about which game entertains you the most. I rotate MMO's like underwear because I like variety. At this point, I'm into DCUO because I love playing from my couch and I love the DC IP. Next month it will be Dragon Age 2. After that, I plan on picking up RIFT(great game). If CO comes out with some good content, then I'll drift back here and plop down $10 for a AP. Plenty of room in our lives for more than one MMO.

If SWTOR defies the odds and is good, then there will be no more room for any variety. Of course you will have to wait till 2013 to play it. No way Bioware releases it at the same time as Mass Effect 3.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 06:21 AM
At the end of the day, its all about which game entertains you the most. I rotate MMO's like underwear because I like variety. At this point, I'm into DCUO because I love playing from my couch and I love the DC IP. Next month it will be Dragon Age 2. After that, I plan on picking up RIFT(great game). If CO comes out with some good content, then I'll drift back here and plop down $10 for a AP. Plenty of room in our lives for more than one MMO.

If SWTOR defies the odds and is good, then there will be no more room for any variety. Of course you will have to wait till 2013 to play it. No way Bioware releases it at the same time as Mass Effect 3.

Nitpick here. You can play CO from the couch as well, I do it whenever the couch is available (i.e. the misses isn't trying to drown out the sound of CO and my voice with another episode of housewives of random major city #5).

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:06 AM
He is a very interesting villain.

I'm gonna be "that guy" and complain that isn't how Scarecrow's fear gas works at all. It makes your phobias come to life and makes it so you can't tell what is and isn't real anymore. He doesn't have direct control over what you see and when he's tormenting Batgirl with it, you really shouldn't be seeing what she's seeing at all.

I guess to be perfectly fair, there wasn't really any other way they could have included him but for a game that's so obsessed with staying canon it seems odd that they would take liberties with that. It was also a pretty creative boss fight, especially for an MMO.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:25 AM
I'm gonna be "that guy" and complain that isn't how Scarecrow's fear gas works at all. It makes your phobias come to life and makes it so you can't tell what is and isn't real anymore. He doesn't have direct control over what you see and when he's tormenting Batgirl with it, you really shouldn't be seeing what she's seeing at all.

I guess to be perfectly fair, there wasn't really any other way they could have included him but for a game that's so obsessed with staying canon it seems odd that they would take liberties with that. It was also a pretty creative boss fight, especially for an MMO.

Well, what else could they do? They can't custom tailor it for the phobias of each player . . .

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:39 AM
Well, what else could they do? They can't custom tailor it for the phobias of each player . . .

Ooh theres an idea for a fear-based Nemmy with customisable minions!. ;)

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:45 AM
Like I said, not an awful lot they could have done if they wanted to put Scarecrow in. Maybe indirectly deal with the fear gas by you being unaffected by it and having to protect Batgirl from Scarecrow's actual thugs coming in and trying to beat her to death while she's under the influence of the gas. Having to shut down valves to stop the gas from pouring in. Scarecrow isn't exactly a TOTAL push-over without his gas, he's actually a fairly competant fighter and if that fails, use guns (something a lot of Batman villains seem to understand while others seem to think of it as an alien concept).

I'm not complaining the boss fight isn't interesting but it's pretty damn stupid for a game that has such a raging boner for sticking to canon that they'd handle it like this. Plus, some of the phobias are pretty dumb. Fear of guns and explosions and he pops up giant with a machine gun? Really?

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:53 AM
I don't agree with everything in the video, but I do agree about the lack of customisation and targeting.

The fact that I also felt constantly inferior to canon DC superheroes also put me off, so I came back to Champions and bought a LTS when they went on sale once I realised just how much I do like CO, for all its faults.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:54 AM
Oh well, to each his own.

I seem to have a knack for not talking myself out of having fun.
:D

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:56 AM
He'd just as quickly rip on CO [...]

Yeeeah... but he'd rip on other things. The thing is is that he keyed off on everything I dislike about MMOs in general versus RPGs in general, he was very accurate there.

- The gameplay involves no situational awareness, it's just button mashing.
(In CO situational awareness is important. Note the onomatopoeia of enemies for one thing and the clear visual effects of all powers for another.)

- The game is all about gear grinding versus open customisation at the start.
(In CO, I find that I can make any character I want from the outset. And DC UO is tremendously limiting.)

- Identity through gameplay is as bad as identity through appearance.
(In CO, I don't have to ape a hero, I can do something entirely crazy and original. There are no limits.)

- There are two environments, both are cities and not really very impressive.
(In CO we have a variety of environments, some of which are truly interesting. Say what you want about Lemuria, there's nothing else like it out there in MMOs, and that's why even WoW tried to ape it. Serious props to their environment people, who are, quite frankly, amazing.)

- DC is so bland that even the silly cliches manage to somehow turn out dull and uninspired.
(Okay, this is personal opinion, but really... when I look at, say, VIPER... they're hilarious, I love them. They're just truly fantastic villains. I didn't encounter anything like them in the entirety of the time I played DC Universe Online, which was one of the things that put me off. It's gruel to CO's popcorn.)

Now allow me to clarify some of this.

I'm a more creative person, I like to spend time fiddling around with the character creator to see what I can pull out of it, just to see what I can do, for the heck of it. Not just random stuff thrown together, but actual characters with their own continuity. I have a pack of werewolves (which are entirely silly and don't at all fit what one might expect of werewolves), I have a group of critters which are a homage to the deathclaws in killap's continuity of the Fallout Universe, I have a group which are sired by a Qliphotic demon but all have their own stories, and so on. I love that.

CO allows me to have my own identity, with my appearance and with my powers, and that's why I like coming back to it. Another thing I do is appreciate art. I'm a very artsy person, I can't help it, so I like to explore and look at things. A few examples of this were when I played Neverwinter Nights 2 with a friend and I kept stopping to look at all the environment detail, he'd get a bit fed up with me. And when we played Guild Wars, I had this habit of finding 'epic dead ends' (as he put it), since I liked to discover these beautiful vistas that game had. And CO has a lot to see, and sometimes you'll just want to see it for the sake of seeing it, but I don't get that vibe from DC Universe Online.

One of my main problems with DC UO is that it's not inspired enough, it's not fantastic enough, and if you actually do do a comparison with Champions Online, it's actually downright dull. It's visually dull, they never give you anything silly to do, you'll likely never get to fight a giant, mechanical T-Rex, or stomp around a miniature city in a personal Godzilla film that stars you. And indeed, you'll never have your own Nemesis, again it's limiting.

I just feel that DC UO is CO but for less creative, imaginative people who aren't so inclined to explore, who don't care so much about locations, visuals, and experiences. If you just want to go and beat stuff up at the side of Batman, that's fine, but some will want more out of a game than that. And really, a single-player game is better suited to those sorts of shenanigans. Seeing DC Universe Online, I actually think that I'm glad that Cryptic lost the Marvel license.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 10:32 AM
I have been saying good things about DC, but I am an eternal optimist - I tend to dwell on the good. Bottom line is, I am subbed here and not there. So whatever good I see in DCUO, it doesn't trump my experience here.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 10:44 AM
Ba Dum Tish!

ZIIINNNGGG!!!



Let me laugh with you friend.

In case ya'll missed it, 8bit actually made a joke....for once. He actually implied DCUO is *snickers* competition

:confused:

....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D:D:D


Yeah, everyone knows that low population free to play games aren't competition for serious releases.


Really guys, the jealous fixation on DCUO is getting embarrassing. I also couldn't help but notice that CO wasn't even on the reviewer's radar. He apparently thought there was only 1 other super MMO out there.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 10:51 AM
Really guys, the jealous fixation on DCUO is getting embarrassing.

I wouldn't say it's jealous, or that even it's limited to here, as people have been talking about Crypitc and their free to play success elsewhere. There have been news posts on major gaming sites about it. Some have piped up about how terrible a game CO is and have been shut down by comparisons.

Really, where the money is doesn't actually imply the greatest game. Because if that were the case then you'd be playing World of ********. Also, interestingly, a market analysis reacently revealed that the most popular other game with DC Universe Online players was World of ********. I'll dig that up for you, if you like. There are many similarities between the two.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 12:51 PM
Yeah, everyone knows that low population free to play games aren't competition for serious releases.


Really guys, the jealous fixation on DCUO is getting embarrassing. I also couldn't help but notice that CO wasn't even on the reviewer's radar. He apparently thought there was only 1 other super MMO out there.

MMOs aren't even on Yahztee's radar. Ever notice he never reviews them unless there is nothing else to review and when he could generally review an MMO he mostly picks up nalstagic games? It's hard to use "it wasn't a blip on his radar" since most of the time that's how all MMOs are on his radar and he only reviews them when he has nothing else.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 01:14 PM
I've also always been somewhat confused with the infatuation CO players have with how "terrible" DCUO is. Then again, while confused, I am not surprised. People always try to play off whatever their niche is as being superior to anything else around. That's why hipsters exist. It's also why so many people say things like "X game is better than World of ********" when the simple fact is that the very fact they are making the comparison proves that WoW is the benchmark by which other games must be judged. Every Tom, ****, and Harry in the world can claim that their tiny niche MMO is better than a multi-million dollar release that has 5+ years of iteration under its belt, but it's simply self-deception.

The same goes for DCUO. I know that CO players want to tell themselves how much better this game is than DCUO, and how terrible DCUO is. Honestly, I'm subscribed here after letting my DCUO subscription expire, so what position am I in to argue?

Well, I'm in the position of a gamer that has given both games a fair shake, and I'll tell you why I'm here. I'm here because I can enjoy this game solo, and because I enjoy customization and concept characters. I enjoy being able to take something like a sword made out of mental energy, recolor it, and call it a hard-light construct. This game is very open-ended, and I love it.

The chat system, which was basically lifted in its entirety from WoW, which in turn lifted its basic construct for a chat system from games like Everquest, is also superior to DCUO's tragic UI.

But the graphics? The smoothness of motion? The intensity and variety of combat? The emphasis on teaming? CO simply doesn't have any of these things over DCUO. Combat as a free-form in CO will eventually boil down to spamming a primary single target or primary AoE ability while cycling offensive click abilities. Its about as exciting and visceral as raiding in WoW. You hit a few buttons over and over again, and you win. By contrast, combat in DCUO requires long (and sometimes quit complex) sequences of mouse clicks to execute combos, each of which have a different result. Want to knock someone down? Different combo. Want to juggle them? Different combo. Want to stun them? Different combo again.

And all of that is before you even start using your character's actual abilities.

And don't even get me started on travel powers. CO has a handful of travel powers, some of which don't even have Advantages, and all of which amount to little more than reskins of each other. Point A to Point B travel powers, nothing more. DCUO may only have three travel powers, but there are entire talent trees devoted to them. Wanna make a character who's only ability is super speed? You can do that, in DCUO. In champions, you have to give them rank 3 Super Speed with Impact, and then...well, make stuff up.

The bottom line is that Champions Online has FAR superior customization to DCUO. Complete freedom to make your character look and play virtually any way you want. And I suspect that's why most of us are here. When it comes to end-game content, raiding, and intense, visceral combat though... DCUO really is a sound game that is only going to get better.

If you're an RPer, or a fan of PnPs... CO is the game for you. If you're a PvPer or a gamer who appreciates twitch-based combat AT ALL... DCUO is where you should be.

And as I said... that's coming from someone who is subscribed here and not there. I am not attempting to insult CO at all. I'm just being fair and laying it out there.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 02:34 PM
@Laughriot

I'd like to take this on a point by point basis, if I may.

1. Hipsters

If you look at your post, you're doing much the same. Your entire post is a thinly veiled jab at where you feel CO is lacking, and then talking it up in areas which you've made clear that you don't think are all that important. I'm terribly good at seeing through such things, it's like a sixth sense. It's slight of hand, smoke and mirrors, misdirection - and one of the oldest tricks in the book is to try to call other people out for doing something before you do it, as that way it becomes less likely that people will notice that you're doing exactly the same thing.

For example, you say that's why "we're all here", but at the very start of your post you segment us all off as "CO players", which doesn't include you. It's trickery. You're talking up your favourite game as much as anyone else here, you're just trying to fool people into thinking you aren't. I'm an old master at the wind-up game, and I can just see through spin. It's completely transparent to me.

You're a DC UO fan, I get that, but don't pretend as though you're some arbitrating middle-man when everything, everything about your post dictates otherwise, in a very loud and somewhat obnoxiously obvious way. I have no issues with people standing by their beliefs, I support that, it's dishonesty that I don't like.

2. The Graphics/Smoothness

I might give you smoothness, but that polish is something that highly budgeted mainstream games get, but what that means is that there isn't a lot of variety, instead you get stuff that's polished to the point where it has a plastic sheen to it. As Yahtzee put it, in DC Universe Online you have a city and you have anohter city. That's about it really. Oh, they're well polished cities, but they don't have much visual vibrancy or variety. I was in the beta and I saw this for myself. The locations are as dull as dishwater. Polished? Oh yes, absolutely. But if you've seen one part of Metropolis or Gotham, you've seen them all.

This is versus Champions Online - you have the Desert, Canada, Vibora Bay, Millennium City, and Monster Island, all of which are vibrantly, colourfully different from each other, you can tell one from the other thematically immediately. There's the same variety in locations as there is in character building, and to me that's just as important as the sheen. Polish only gets you so far. I really like to run around and look at things, and Champions Online really gives me some incredible sights to see. Props to their environment artists for that.

There's nothing like the lands of Demonflame or Monster Island in DC Universe Online, nothing even touches upon it. And even Vibora Bay has more atmosphere than Gotham City, which for the most part just tends to come off as Metropolis at night. They didn't do enough with the noir feeling of Gotham to give it the variety the game so desperately needs. And that's what DC Universe Online lacks when looking at graphics. It's like... one finely polished statue but decidedly unimaginative statue of a famous figure versus a large bag of incredibly fun toys. That describes the visual differences to a tee.

Yes, DC Universe Online is more polished and has more sheen, and I don't think anyone would dispute that, I know that I haven't and wouldn't, but that sheen cost it a lot of visual variety. And at the end of the day it's down to people to ask themselves which they think is the most important.

3. Intensity

I don't think that anything in DC Universe Online can match the intensity of the Monster Island Crisis. If you have an example then I'd be more than a bit interesting. And no, a super shiny cutscene with full voice acting by known voice actors does not count for 'intensity'. So I'd say that Champions Online wins in this category too, because there are a number of examples in which CO can be counted as intense, I just picked one of my faves, here.

Again, I was in the beta and saw nothing of the sort.

4. Variety of Combat

I think that CO wins again, here. There are a good variety of powers on offer, and they allow for all sorts of approaches to combat. Also, situational awareness matters in Champions Online. With that, you can avoid debuffs, attacks, and you can play skillfully. The onomatopoeia that appears over the heads of foes helps with that, and each power has a distinctly different visual appearance. You can get a good view of what's going on by looking around. And moving matters more in CO too - if you see a cone attack incoming, you can dodge out of the way or block. This even counts from the tutorial.

When I played DC Universe Online, the beta, all I really found myself doing was mashing buttons. I don't see that that counts for variety of combat. I have a bunch of alts in Champions Online and they all play a different way - I have a guy that teleports in, drops area of effects, then teleports out, I have a munitions guy that swoops in and out of battle, sniping from afar and laying traps, I have a guy that relies on pets and support, aiding his pets and his friends, and I have a guy that likes to control the battlefield by dictating where NPCs can move and when. This is combat variety, if you ask me.

And it's interesting that in your argument you note that everything comes down to a 'combo use' in DC Universe Online. And from my experiences and from what others have told me, combos just come down to button mashing and nothing else. So... yeah. CO wins this, I think.

5. The Emphasis on Teaming

I think that Champions Online can match it here. In Champions Online you have Nem Cons, where you can team up with a bunch of people to take down Nemeses. There's one there for each party member, after all, and people enjoy that and have fun with it. Folks love these and I and my friends have been involved in a great number of them, with each other and with others. I can't see that DC Universe Online has anything that would offer more of an incentive to team up than that.

Unless you mean that DC Universe Online has forced grouping, in which case I'm glad that Champions Online doesn't do that, because I think it's a horrible, awful thing and that people should be able to choose, lest you get saddled with some truly nasty people you otherwise wouldn't have had to tolerate. I remember having to put up with this in Final Fantasy XI. Never again. Never, ever again.

6. Travel Powers

You're pretending that the advantages to travel powers in Champions Online don't exist, either that or you've never used them. If you include those advantages, then CO can stand pretty much toe to toe with DC Universe Online, and even betters it by having some more unique stuff (Swinging! Jet Boots!) on offer. About the only thing I can give DC Universe Online in this area after having played it is that you can use Super Speed to run up vertical surfaces, but that's it, really. Other than that, counting the advantages, CO trounces the competition this particular area too.

7. Identity Matters

What you're not getting when you talk about roleplayers is that not everyone is going to want to be a cheap Wonder Woman knock off, or a Batman clone. It doesn't take a roleplayer to have the desire ot express oneself. Anyone with an ounce of artistic talent is going to have the desire to do that. And whilst trying out DC Universe Online, I felt locked down. Like I was chained up. And that I could just essentially be Joker Lite, Batman Lite, Superman Lite, Luther Lite, Circe Lite, or Wonder Woman Lite.

But what if I had concepts that were wildly beyond the limited concepts of the DC Universe? I mean, DC has some of the most boring Universes out there. There, I've said it, I feel better. It's just exceedingly dull. And nothing I've ever read of DC can compare to Grant Morrison's run on the X-Men. The reason for this is because Marvel does a lot of high concept, experimental stuff. This is true of a number of other comics companies in the industry too, and indie. But DC is known for playing it safe.

The question is though is whether I too want to play it safe? If I have a concept that goes beyond the limited scope of DC Universe Online, I'm screwed! Limited in scope is the problem with DC UO, if you ask me. It's true of the environments, your options in how you approach and handle a fight, and it's limited in how youo create a character. This is what bothers me about it. And like I said previously, if all you want to do is be Batman enough to be a Batman clone and boff some villains, then it works, but some will want more than that.

I want more than that. Champions Online gives me freedom of identity. DC Universre Online does not.

And as for the last line? I don't buy it. Sorry. :P You are way too convicted for that to be true. So I smell more spin going on, there.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 03:01 PM
Really guys, the jealous fixation on DCUO is getting embarrassing.

Heh, I'll get jealous as soon as I see something to be jealous about...

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 03:13 PM
Like I said, not an awful lot they could have done if they wanted to put Scarecrow in. Maybe indirectly deal with the fear gas by you being unaffected by it and having to protect Batgirl from Scarecrow's actual thugs coming in and trying to beat her to death while she's under the influence of the gas. Having to shut down valves to stop the gas from pouring in..

Whoa, whoa, that reminded me so much about Crawler from Fable 3 and the encounter where you have to protect Walter from the inflooding black mind-goo that I had to post about it.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 03:22 PM
Heh, I'll get jealous as soon as I see something to be jealous about...

Like a large population of paying players?

Like an actual game instead of an (admittedly industry leading and totally awesome) virtual doll creator?

Like enjoyable PvP?

Each game has it's virtues, but I speak from experience when i say that they don't think about you nearly as much as you guys seem to think about them.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 03:39 PM
A few things I find silly...

DCUO fans trying to convince people on the CO forums that DCUO is better...

CO people trying to defend why their game is better...

Anyone trying to convince anyone else why their game is better. Its your opinon. Its not law. Doesn't matter if every reviewer agrees with you, its still an opinion.

Both games are GOOD...they're just good in different ways. And lets not forget about COX. While DCUO is my current choice, I think COX is the best value of the three due to content and customization.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 04:06 PM
A few things I find silly...

DCUO fans trying to convince people on the CO forums that DCUO is better...

CO people trying to defend why their game is better...

Anyone trying to convince anyone else why their game is better. Its your opinon. Its not law. Doesn't matter if every reviewer agrees with you, its still an opinion.

Both games are GOOD...they're just good in different ways. And lets not forget about COX. While DCUO is my current choice, I think COX is the best value of the three due to content and customization.

Well said.....except the part about CoH, which totally sucks. (I kid)

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 05:26 PM
Like a large population of paying players?

Nope. I've seen the mentality of the population. You can have them.

Like an actual game instead of an (admittedly industry leading and totally awesome) virtual doll creator

Nope. Hate the gameplay "left click, left click, left hold"... Bleh...

Like enjoyable PvP?

Nope. I don't PvP. PvPers may be jealous, I dunno, but not me...

Nope, nothing there for me....

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 06:01 PM
it's suppose to be a joke

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 06:08 PM
Like a large population of paying players?

Like an actual game instead of an (admittedly industry leading and totally awesome) virtual doll creator?

Like enjoyable PvP?

Each game has it's virtues, but I speak from experience when i say that they don't think about you nearly as much as you guys seem to think about them.



Now that is funny.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 08:40 PM
@Laughriot

Snipped condescending wall of text.

I tried to read your post, VagrantWolf, but frankly it was a lot of tooting your own horn in an insulting manner (you have a sixth sense for seeing through other people's lies? Really?) and I gave up after the first bit. I'm sure you made some sound points, because despite your arrogance and those early ridiculous statements, you seem like a fairly intelligent sort.

The bottom line is that I did absolutely nothing that you accused me of. You want to paint me that way because you want to disagree with me, and it is easier to disagree with someone that you have belittled in a public forum. To the unwitting observer, it damages their credibility.

I do consider myself a CO player. I simply don't fall into the trap that many CO players fall into, wherein they insult other MMOs and talk up CO as though it is the greatest thing to come down the pike in... well, forever. I see the game has its flaws, and I see that it has its strengths. Obviously, to me, the strengths outweigh the flaws. They also outweigh the strengths of other games in this genre (the super-hero MMO), or I wouldn't be here as a gold subscriber for the 3rd time. I just keep coming back.

My post was intended as a sober middle position. I did not make "a thinly veiled jab at where I feel CO is lacking, and then talk it up in areas which I've made clear that I don't think are all that important." I pointed out what I feel are the games strengths and weaknesses, and compared them to the strengths and weaknesses of another game. CO comes out ahead of DCUO in a lot of ways, but falls behind it in a lot of other ways. Clearly, the areas that I "didn't think were all that important" must be important to me in some way, since, as I've said several times... I'm here paying money for them. Customization and freedom of creation are actually more important to me then intense combo-based combat. I just happen to see the appeal of said combo-based combat.

As a final note, while I would normally be happy to debate you point for point... I'm going to let this post end it. Your response was so obnoxious and insulting that I don't feel it warranted a more thoughtful response than this one. Perhaps when you learn to debate with someone without pretending you work for Fox News, I'll be more inclined to respond in kind.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 09:47 PM
Like a large population of paying players?

Like an actual game instead of an (admittedly industry leading and totally awesome) virtual doll creator?

Like enjoyable PvP?

Each game has it's virtues, but I speak from experience when i say that they don't think about you nearly as much as you guys seem to think about them.

Nah, MattMinus isn't biased at all, his argument is especially compelling when he used PvP as one of his highlights....

Okay I can't keep a straihgt face anymore when I say that.

Archived Post
02-18-2011, 10:19 PM
Nah, MattMinus isn't biased at all, his argument is especially compelling when he used PvP as one of his highlights....

Okay I can't keep a straihgt face anymore when I say that.

I must not get the joke. PvP is one of the ways that DCUO seems pretty clearly superior to CO. One of the few.

Could you explain the joke to me?

Archived Post
02-19-2011, 06:43 AM
... DC has some of the most boring Universes out there....

I disagree upon the grounds of Jack Kirby's forth world. Other than that I agree with the sentiment of your post.

I will save my reservations of DCUO until I play it, which will be after I can have a trial and not pay 50 buck for a game I can't do anything with, if I don't like it.

Archived Post
02-19-2011, 07:29 AM
I disagree upon the grounds of Jack Kirby's forth world. Other than that I agree with the sentiment of your post.

I will save my reservations of DCUO until I play it, which will be after I can have a trial and not pay 50 buck for a game I can't do anything with, if I don't like it.

I actually agree with Vagrant...The DC universe is dry and boring. There are a few blips here and there but other than that...meh.

I wouldn't recommend buying DCUO until SOE gets their stuff together.(This is coming from a DCUO fan mind you) The PS3 side is doing well but the PC side is suffering for it. I speculate that DC/WB wanted an extra revenue stream and pushed for this game to come out. (Anyone else notice the Green Lantern movie has completely dropped off the planet?) SOE really needed another month to just work out the UI kinks. I expect free trials to start in April. Sales have dropped off somewhat but still in top 20 on Steam. Rift should kill that though.

TBH, I would want Blizzard or Trion to handle the Marvel MMO. Mainly because that's the comic IP I care the most about and they have proven they value quality over a release deadline. I would say Turbine also but they put too much grind in their game. The company that currently has the license to do it(Gazillion) can't even release the F2P kid version. So really, I think my great comic book MMO dreams have pretty much ended. Well, maybe they'll all go free 2 play and I can multi-box for a complete experience. :)

I started playing MMO's b/c I loved pnp Superhero games. EQ was the closes thing at that point. In theory, I should be in MMO heaven with 3 choices but the 3 choices are average. I'm really hoping DCUO or/and CO can turn the corner and get their games solid. Now they are sort of niche distractions. COX is what it is at this point. Well, enough of my rambling. See you in the game.

Archived Post
02-19-2011, 08:08 AM
I wouldn't recommend buying DCUO until SOE gets their stuff together.(This is coming from a DCUO fan mind you) The PS3 side is doing well but the PC side is suffering for it. I speculate that DC/WB wanted an extra revenue stream and pushed for this game to come out. (Anyone else notice the Green Lantern movie has completely dropped off the planet?) SOE really needed another month to just work out the UI kinks. I expect free trials to start in April. Sales have dropped off somewhat but still in top 20 on Steam. Rift should kill that though.




The first sentence in this quote is actually true, despite the good things I've been saying about it. There are a few problems with DCUO that really need to be looked at before I'll call it a complete game. For instance, when you queue for the 4-man Alert instances, you have to select the group role you want to play (DPS, tank, heals, or CC). However, regardless of what you queue as, nothing actually forces you to fulfill that role, and the queuing system seems to think that you can clear hard-mode alerts with any mixture of people. Queuing in and discovering that you're with 3 other people who all refuse to switch out of their DPS role is not great gameplay. The game is like 2 months old though, so I'm sure it'll improve.

Still though, there are a lot of things to recommend it. Just the fact that switching weapon skills involves completely relearning a new series of combos, some of which are quite difficult to master (LOL RIFLE COMBOS OMG!) leads to some pretty deep gameplay.

Archived Post
02-19-2011, 10:25 AM
what's really funny is my anti-virus just gave me a trojan horse warning and disable the connection to that link . . . . . .

Archived Post
02-20-2011, 10:03 AM
The real LOL is: he's not insulting just DCUO - he's insulting all MMO's, the designers, and the people who play them.

The first sentence in this quote is actually true, despite the good things I've been saying about it. There are a few problems with DCUO that really need to be looked at before I'll call it a complete game. For instance, when you queue for the 4-man Alert instances, you have to select the group role you want to play (DPS, tank, heals, or CC). However, regardless of what you queue as, nothing actually forces you to fulfill that role, and the queuing system seems to think that you can clear hard-mode alerts with any mixture of people. Queuing in and discovering that you're with 3 other people who all refuse to switch out of their DPS role is not great gameplay. The game is like 2 months old though, so I'm sure it'll improve.

Still though, there are a lot of things to recommend it. Just the fact that switching weapon skills involves completely relearning a new series of combos, some of which are quite difficult to master (LOL RIFLE COMBOS OMG!) leads to some pretty deep gameplay.

So basically the same problem as this game? Have yet to meet any real tanks, CC, or any support here - even in silver mode.

Archived Post
02-20-2011, 11:20 AM
So basically the same problem as this game? Have yet to meet any real tanks, CC, or any support here - even in silver mode.

I'd like to introduce you to my Glacier Archetype, Iceberg. At level 20, he quite easily took aggro away from and kept it away from a level 40 DPS toon. Neither was SKed to the other. We were doing the Bullet for Biselle open mission. Occasionally I would turtle down behind my shield and let the 40 take aggro back when my health got too low, but I knew that at level 40 he could handle it long enough for me to recover a bit. When I returned to attacking, I took the aggro back with great ease and let him recover. If that is not a tank, I don't know what is.

Archived Post
02-20-2011, 03:44 PM
The real LOL is: he's not insulting just DCUO - he's insulting all MMO's, the designers, and the people who play them.



So basically the same problem as this game? Have yet to meet any real tanks, CC, or any support here - even in silver mode.


Who's insulting MMOs, the designers, and the people who play them? I must have overlooked that part of the discussion.

And no, it doesn't have the same problems as this game, because this game still (as far as I know) leaves group-making in the hands of the players. If I decide to do Therakiel's Temple, and I want a trinity-esque group, I decide which roll I'm going to play (DPS, for instance) and then I spam for group members. I make sure I pick up a solid tank, and a solid support player, preferably one who can heal the rest of the team. If I find one person who wants to focus on healing while tossing out DPS and one person who wants to focus on CCing and debuffing while tossing out DPS, more good on me. If any of the people join the group under the pretense of fulfilling those roles and then decide to run around in Avenger/Brawler pewpewing and getting themselves killed instead of helping the team, I can boot their arse out of my group.

In DCUO, people queue for instances using a WoW-esque "Dungeon Finder" sort of tool. They check the role they want to fulfill, but nothing actually forces them to attempt to fulfill that role. So you might get into a group that is as perfectly balanced as the game allows, consisting of a Tank class, a Healing class, a Controller class, and a dedicated DPS, but when the instance loads up you have 3 people in their DPS role, and the DPSer running around trying to spam heals on everyone. Your only recourse is to drop group and requeue.

Btw, I've only done a bare handful of missions that actually required a solid full group in CO (The two in Canada for high 20s/low30s if I remember correctly, the ghosty/ghouly guy, and the one with all the clones) and in both of those, we had a tank-type, a support/heals type, and three damage dealers. I think either you've had fantastically bad luck, or I've had fantastically good luck.

Archived Post
02-20-2011, 04:26 PM
If SWTOR defies the odds and is good, then there will be no more room for any variety.

A little bird told me that it's pretty much like playing KOTOR with other people and with consistently superb voice-overs even for the "fetch 10 x" quests, plus some reasonably well-made standard MMO stuff tacked on ...

*whistles*

So if that floats your boat (and it certainly would mine ;) ) then it looks like you'll have your head buried in it for some time :D

As to DCUO, I'm sure this was all part of Cryptic's cunning plan. Tbqh, my feeling from watching demos and stuff before DCUO came out was that it would be fun in parts, and fun for a while, but probably not as deep and full-on of an MMORPG as CO (erm, not that CO is exactly a paragon of MMORPG depth in itself lol). Judging by the reviews that weren't bought by SoE, that seems to be the case. So Cryptic were very clever to do what they've just done and make CO f2p.

Archived Post
02-20-2011, 04:42 PM
I'd like to introduce you to my Glacier Archetype, Iceberg. At level 20, he quite easily took aggro away from and kept it away from a level 40 DPS toon. Neither was SKed to the other. We were doing the Bullet for Biselle open mission. Occasionally I would turtle down behind my shield and let the 40 take aggro back when my health got too low, but I knew that at level 40 he could handle it long enough for me to recover a bit. When I returned to attacking, I took the aggro back with great ease and let him recover. If that is not a tank, I don't know what is.

Ta, sometimes it's good to be wrong.

Who's insulting MMOs, the designers, and the people who play them? I must have overlooked that part of the discussion.

And no, it doesn't have the same problems as this game, because this game still (as far as I know) leaves group-making in the hands of the players. If I decide to do Therakiel's Temple, and I want a trinity-esque group, I decide which roll I'm going to play (DPS, for instance) and then I spam for group members. I make sure I pick up a solid tank, and a solid support player, preferably one who can heal the rest of the team. If I find one person who wants to focus on healing while tossing out DPS and one person who wants to focus on CCing and debuffing while tossing out DPS, more good on me. If any of the people join the group under the pretense of fulfilling those roles and then decide to run around in Avenger/Brawler pewpewing and getting themselves killed instead of helping the team, I can boot their arse out of my group.

In DCUO, people queue for instances using a WoW-esque "Dungeon Finder" sort of tool. They check the role they want to fulfill, but nothing actually forces them to attempt to fulfill that role. So you might get into a group that is as perfectly balanced as the game allows, consisting of a Tank class, a Healing class, a Controller class, and a dedicated DPS, but when the instance loads up you have 3 people in their DPS role, and the DPSer running around trying to spam heals on everyone. Your only recourse is to drop group and requeue.

Btw, I've only done a bare handful of missions that actually required a solid full group in CO (The two in Canada for high 20s/low30s if I remember correctly, the ghosty/ghouly guy, and the one with all the clones) and in both of those, we had a tank-type, a support/heals type, and three damage dealers. I think either you've had fantastically bad luck, or I've had fantastically good luck.

Fully aware of DCUO - did a two month beta, and found it to be a very good engine, and a lot more bug free than CO. I am refering to the rant that started this post.

Archived Post
02-20-2011, 10:31 PM
Ta, sometimes it's good to be wrong.



Fully aware of DCUO - did a two month beta, and found it to be a very good engine, and a lot more bug free than CO. I am refering to the rant that started this post.

lol, I see. I just now got around to watching the video in the OP, and... what can I say? It was like watching a SomethingAwful review, and then watching all the forum goons take it seriously. The guy basically goes in and talks about the game while putting the worst possible slant he can find on everything, and making the entire concept of MMOs in general, and DCUO in particular, seem ridiculous. Some of the things he was complaining about (lack of clearly defined roles, environments somewhat trivialized by early access to travel powers) are just as present in CO as they are in DCUO.

But we can gloss over that for the sake of slamming a game we all view as our baby's competition, amirite?

The review wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Pretty sure it wouldn't have been set to stick figures cartoons, if it had been.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 12:12 AM
Some of the things he was complaining about (lack of clearly defined roles, environments somewhat trivialized by early access to travel powers) are just as present in CO as they are in DCUO.

But we can gloss over that for the sake of slamming a game we all view as our baby's competition, amirite?

The review wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Pretty sure it wouldn't have been set to stick figures cartoons, if it had been.

The complaints were not about the lack of strict roles (and who would want THAT??), but rather how much everything was alike, generic even. Having lvl'ed a Villainous Gadgeeter and a Heroic Arcanist I totally agree. Most of the time I used weapon attacks, falling back on the actual powers for support rather than damage, and even that was rare.

It was sad really, they did everything they could to remind you that your character was NOT part of the DC universe, your powers did not work like a real DC hero's, your whole timeline was just another parallel earth, and as part of the story you were LITERALLY one amongst millions?!?!

Seriously, why the whole second rate powers from exobites story? It was unnecessary, your character could just be another new hero. To me it all seems like they used an "action" game engine they already had and tried to adapt it for a superhero MMO, hence the prominence of weapons over powers as both damage and energy builders. THen, to justify the weird way the powers worked they came up with the whole exobyte thing.

Meh, I could be wrong but frankly my experiences in DCUO don't make me too worried about it. Its enough for me to know it simply wasn't the game for me on practically all levels. Except superspeed running up walls, gotta give them credit for that one.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 03:46 AM
So we're back where we started then? DC UO is a depthless clickfest. It reminds me a lot of a Diablo game really with a different viewpoint.

Interestingly though, one thing I notice that LaughRiot comes back to is that he bangs on about missions that require grouping. That's bad. Now, making it fun to group is awesome. Champions Online does that with lots of missions, and you can group up just for the fun times and the better loot (taking instances at higher difficulties). But none of them require you to.

What does that mean? If a mission doesn't require you to group, it doesn't force you to group. I remember in FF XI that I had to put up with a bunch of unsavoury people, a few really stuck in my head and I never want to go there again. I remember one guy who liked to pretend he was with the military and bark orders, then there was that homophobe who kept spouting really hateful stuff, and more than a few racists who hated upon Japanese people in a Japanese game. It was a festering pusspile of sociopaths.

The unfortunate part of forced grouping is that I need to group with these people. If I group in Champions Online, it's my choice. I group for the following reasons:

1. Someone in my supergroup, a close friend, or someone from the private channels I'm in is running a longer instance on hard, and they want company/help.
2. The inverse of the above.
3. I'm leveling a character simultaneously with a friend.

Now let's look at the inverse. Let's say that my MMO playing friends are offline and I want to level a character, in Champions Online I can go about doing that independently. In DC Universe Online I would be forced to group with people who're unable to make friends because they have attitude problems. Usually the sorts of people who support forced grouping are of this category, they're all for forced grouping because they know I have to tolerate them in order to play the game.

This is why I've sworn I will never, ever again touch a game that enforces grouping upon the player. Ever. Ever. FF XI was Sociopath Nation and I'm not going back there. You can't make me! I've got Champions Online. But this is another great reason to avoid DC UO - because the moment that more sociopathic people hear that there's forced grouping there, they're going to infest it.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 04:45 AM
I must not get the joke. PvP is one of the ways that DCUO seems pretty clearly superior to CO. One of the few.

Could you explain the joke to me?
The joke is that compelling PvP is one of the weakest reasons to choose one MMO over another. Real PvPers don't play MMOs where their skill is diluted via a character sheet's numbers. They play MMOs for sh*ts and giggles, online FPS for practise, and LAN FPS where everyone's at the same speed connection for serious competition.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 08:16 AM
So we're back where we started then? DC UO is a depthless clickfest. It reminds me a lot of a Diablo game really with a different viewpoint.

Interestingly though, one thing I notice that LaughRiot comes back to is that he bangs on about missions that require grouping. That's bad. Now, making it fun to group is awesome. Champions Online does that with lots of missions, and you can group up just for the fun times and the better loot (taking instances at higher difficulties). But none of them require you to.

What does that mean? If a mission doesn't require you to group, it doesn't force you to group. I remember in FF XI that I had to put up with a bunch of unsavoury people, a few really stuck in my head and I never want to go there again. I remember one guy who liked to pretend he was with the military and bark orders, then there was that homophobe who kept spouting really hateful stuff, and more than a few racists who hated upon Japanese people in a Japanese game. It was a festering pusspile of sociopaths.

The unfortunate part of forced grouping is that I need to group with these people. If I group in Champions Online, it's my choice. I group for the following reasons:

1. Someone in my supergroup, a close friend, or someone from the private channels I'm in is running a longer instance on hard, and they want company/help.
2. The inverse of the above.
3. I'm leveling a character simultaneously with a friend.

Now let's look at the inverse. Let's say that my MMO playing friends are offline and I want to level a character, in Champions Online I can go about doing that independently. In DC Universe Online I would be forced to group with people who're unable to make friends because they have attitude problems. Usually the sorts of people who support forced grouping are of this category, they're all for forced grouping because they know I have to tolerate them in order to play the game.

This is why I've sworn I will never, ever again touch a game that enforces grouping upon the player. Ever. Ever. FF XI was Sociopath Nation and I'm not going back there. You can't make me! I've got Champions Online. But this is another great reason to avoid DC UO - because the moment that more sociopathic people hear that there's forced grouping there, they're going to infest it.

We get it. You don't like DCUO, and think Champions is superior in every way. That's fine. There is no reason to keep coming here and posting insults (thinly veiled ones, if they are veiled at all) directed at people who have a differing opinion from ours. Especially since I seem to be your primary target, and my opinion is so similar to your own.

You remind me of my girlfriend's family. They're staunch republicans, and I'm a guy that hates both political parties, and votes based on who I think the better candidate is. Heck, I even do research to make sure I'm not just another guy clicking names in a ballot booth. Every time I discuss politics with them, they end up angrier at me than they would at a die-hard democrat. I'm assuming its because my opinions are so much like theirs, and I agree with them often enough, that whenever I DO disagree with them on the basis of being reasonable, it seems like a slap in the face. Its all well and good to be moderate... as long as you fully agree with the person. If you're moderate and say the other side has good ideas too, you're a baby-eating atheist democrate pinko.

Seriously, chief... I'm here playing the same game you are. If I didn't at least MOSTLY agree with you, I'd still be playing DCUO, now wouldn't I? You need to step back from your monitor and take some deep breaths, and think about that before you slam me again. You're yelling and hand-waving in a situation where there is no need for yelling and hand-waving.

As to your poorly concealed personal attacks (implying that I'm a sociopath for enjoying grouping, etc) I'm not going to bother answering them. As I said last time, I'll be happy to debate if my opponent isn't doing his best Rush Limbaugh/Keith Olberman impression. Just let it be said that these games are called MMOs, and that second "M" stands for "multi-player." If grouping with strangers turns you off so deeply, perhaps you'd be better suited with an Xbox live account so you can play with just your friends, without letting your anti-multiplayer sentiment risk effecting game balance for those that enjoy..., well... multiplayer games?

Just a suggestion.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 08:41 AM
It seems odd to me that people condemn others with such vehemence in these threads.

I mean, think about it: Player 1 loves superhero MMO A more than superhero MMO B. If that makes Player 2 who prefers superhero MMO B a brainless loser, Player 1 isn't too far removed, if you follow me.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 12:04 PM
It seems odd to me that people condemn others with such vehemence in these threads.

I mean, think about it: Player 1 loves superhero MMO A more than superhero MMO B. If that makes Player 2 who prefers superhero MMO B a brainless loser, Player 1 isn't too far removed, if you follow me.

I follow you. That's kinda my point, honestly.

Archived Post
02-21-2011, 01:10 PM
Yes, let's NOT bash any MMO on these forums.
Ours, that of other companies - any. After all, we're leading by good example, right?