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Archived Post
12-04-2010, 09:41 AM
Ranking up Invulnerability: How much is this adding to your survival?

Is ranking it up truly worth it?

Archived Post
12-04-2010, 11:34 AM
I don't usually bother.

Archived Post
12-04-2010, 12:25 PM
I do. I'm a mediocre player and it gives me a warm fuzzy to have Rank 3 on my defensive passive (with the exception of LR).

Archived Post
12-04-2010, 01:06 PM
Good question. To expound on it, which Defensive passives are or aren't worth ranking up??

Archived Post
12-04-2010, 02:04 PM
I never rank up defiance. More initial stacks? Who cares, wait 8 seconds.

Archived Post
12-05-2010, 04:29 AM
I had also heard that ranking LR isn't really worth the points, but I always ranked it up anyways so I can't say for sure or why it was told to me don' bother.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 03:21 AM
I never rank up defiance. More initial stacks? Who cares, wait 8 seconds.

This is my thought exactly. I'm either not in much danger in the first place, or I am and I'll hit Masterful Dodge. By the time that runs out, Defiance is well on its way. Once those stacks are maxed, those extra ranks aren't doing anything.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 04:18 AM
If you plan on tanking, rank up your passives. The exception is defiance, as mentioned, its rank ups only affect its initial stacks and not its final defense numbers.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 05:50 AM
Defiance is worth ranking up if you are doing an int/enrage combo as it makes having 8 stacks of enrage up at all time really easy (even when not being attacked).

Other than that the advantage is there but whether it is worth spending the points is questionable (it's really never worth it for Invun)

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 06:26 AM
there's not a defensive passive slotted thats NOT worth ranking to max. not only is it worth it, but it should be what you spend your first 4 rank points on. i have 7 lvl 40s, 20 characters. trust me, rank up your passive slotted, as long as its defensive anyway.

if anyone has an issue with this advice...PM me, we can duel....you shall see. lol

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 06:28 AM
im just curious, what are you people basing your statements of non nebulous, non "im not totally sure"-disclaimered stuff like "invuln is never worth ranking up"? lemme guess, you guys also end up with like 8 attack powers by lvl 40 right? XD

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 06:54 AM
I usually end up with a ton of attacks, but I also always max out my passives. Usually for me, I grab a passive ASAP that's in my framework (with very few exceptions - sometimes it's out-of-framework passives I grab right away, other times I'll wait until a good while later to grab one.) However, once I grab a passive, first thing I do is max it out.

I think the only character of mine that has a passive that isn't ranked out to max is my main, Calsetes, because he has LR maxed, but he's two points shy of maxing out the dual blades offensive passive (he has both so he can do mixed things in a group.) Still, the damage output with that even at rank two is impressive. Not "I tap a button for 3 billion damage!" impressive, but I can put a dent in many a big guy.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 10:54 AM
im just curious, what are you people basing your statements of non nebulous, non "im not totally sure"-disclaimered stuff like "invuln is never worth ranking up"? lemme guess, you guys also end up with like 8 attack powers by lvl 40 right? XD

So you would spend 4 talent points to further reducing incoming damage by approx 25 damage? (invun)

LR suffers from heavy diminishing returns but the way in which percentages work mean that increasing rank does have some very moderate meaning.

Defiance is about starting with extra ranks. Depending on build this may or may not have some meaning.

Regen -- well that's only really a PvE passive and R1 is more than enough to tick over.

Would you gain more defensive benefit from ranking up thing such as bionic, BCR, resurgence, MD, unbreakable, MR, to name a few (and this isn't exhaustive)? I think the answer to this is yes, you do receive more benefit from ranking these up rather than a defensive passive.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 11:10 AM
So you would spend 4 talent points to further reducing incoming damage by approx 25 damage? (invun)

LR suffers from heavy diminishing returns but the way in which percentages work mean that increasing rank does have some very moderate meaning.

Defiance is about starting with extra ranks. Depending on build this may or may not have some meaning.

Regen -- well that's only really a PvE passive and R1 is more than enough to tick over.

Would you gain more defensive benefit from ranking up thing such as bionic, BCR, resurgence, MD, unbreakable, MR, to name a few (and this isn't exhaustive)? I think the answer to this is yes, you do receive more benefit from ranking these up rather than a defensive passive.

when did i say i dont rank up that stuff too? everything you said here is COMPLETELY your opinion, and IN NO WAY the chorus being sung by the choir of the CO community. i am a leader of an SG with about 750 members, and i dont hear talk EVER about ranking up passive slotted's being ineffective or not worth while. in fact i dont know one person IN GAME who's not a complete noob that plays on normal difficulty and gets PWND in every PVP he enters that doesnt rank up all their passive slotted's on ALL their toons ASAP.

NOTHING can benefit you more than your passive slotted, whatever it is, and whatever rank it is. NOTHING.
knowing that, ranking it up is axiomatic with improving that gap.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 12:25 PM
Well the OP asked whether or not its worth ranking, not if its merely survivible to not add ranks.

Is ranking worth it?: Yes
Can you survive without rank ups?: Yes

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 12:38 PM
Well the OP asked whether or not its worth ranking, not if its merely survivible to not add ranks.

Is ranking worth it?: Yes
Can you survive without rank ups?: Yes

lol indeed. now the OP'er should make a new thread about "is it worth having like 8 attacks with rank points spent on all of them, in either PVE OR PVP?" to which i would emphatically reply "NO. NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST".

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 02:05 PM
Increasing your defense is not optimal if you're not dying.

If you have advantage points to spare, sure put them in your defensive passive. But between all your attacks, buffs and heals, you might not always have the points to spare in every build.

Ranks in Invulnerability add very close to bugger all, because the important part of it, the 30% defense, remains the same regardless of rank, level or stats.

Ranks in Defiance do nothing but increase how many stacks you maintain out of combat. That means after the first 20 seconds of the fight, the ranks are completely useless. Even if using Defiance to help Enrage, you only need Rank 2.


Here's a sample build. You try and tell me where I should be taking away advantage points so I can put them in Invuln for a whopping -30 dmg or whatever.

Superstats:
Level 5: Super Strength
Level 13: Super Intelligence

Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts -- Energy Refraction
Level 1: Force Blast -- Crippling Challenge
Level 5: Force Shield -- Force Sheath
Level 5: Superspeed -- Rank 2
Level 8: Roomsweeper -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 11: Invulnerability
Level 14: Mighty Leap -- Nailed to the Ground
Level 17: Field Drones -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 20: Aggressor -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 23: Immolation
Level 26: Force Cascade -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 29: Electric Sheath -- Matter - Energy Union
Level 32: Inexorable Tides -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 35: Unstoppable
Level 35: Teleport
Level 38: Enrage -- Rank 3, Rank 2

Talents:
Level 1: Mechanized
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Body And Mind
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Field Ops Training
Level 18: Paramilitary Training
Level 21: Covert Ops Training

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 03:04 PM
lol indeed. now the OP'er should make a new thread about "is it worth having like 8 attacks with rank points spent on all of them, in either PVE OR PVP?" to which i would emphatically reply "NO. NOT IN THE SLIGHTEST".

hahaha fine. Poor OP, do try not to tear him apart too much.

Increasing your defense is not optimal if you're not dying.


This likely the best way to look at it.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 04:40 PM
well i ranked my invulnerabilty up...because my stats for it make it so each rank gives me alot more damage i can ignore per hit...

Perhaps if i didnt have a high strength i wouldnt.....go figure i am lazy...for that character

Defiance i ranked up as well ona differing character....because i wanted to have the stacks faster as i use enrage....definace increases the amount of rage you get so i found it best to be able to get my defiance up and rage up fast and then just have my normal powers maintain it from the advantage i have on them.

I also maximized Lighting Reflexes on a character....thats because i realized uppping it increased my dodge. And if it was at a rank of three i didnt have to use as much dex things.

In addition it stacks.....to a point that it lets me dodge things it looks like alot of other players cannot....like gronds attacks for example....or explosions....and well....i tend to like gaining stacks of focus to up my damage.....
It doesnt stop holds....and it does let me dodge things that turn off my travel power.....sooooo i guess thats why i upped it 3 ranks...i got tired of my acrobatics being turned off all the time....this character by the way with this power was an archer character...i would die alot before i was able to get the lighhting reflexes to 3 and a bunch of other powers.

I upped regen on my one character with that power because i regen faster that way.....the amount i regenerate actualy builds faster at a rank of 3...its noticable for me....again probably due to his stats....watching my self regain over 300 damage from regen is always fun.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 04:48 PM
...Here's a sample build.
You try and tell me where I should be taking away advantage points so I can put them in Invuln for a whopping -30 dmg or whatever.
Level 5: Superspeed -- Rank 2
Level 11: Invulnerability -- Rank 2, Rank 3
Level 14: Mighty Leap -- Nailed to the Ground

(Well, you did say TRY. Not SUCCEED :rolleyes: )

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 05:54 PM
Increasing your defense is not optimal if you're not dying.

If you have advantage points to spare, sure put them in your defensive passive. But between all your attacks, buffs and heals, you might not always have the points to spare in every build.

Ranks in Invulnerability add very close to bugger all, because the important part of it, the 30% defense, remains the same regardless of rank, level or stats.

Ranks in Defiance do nothing but increase how many stacks you maintain out of combat. That means after the first 20 seconds of the fight, the ranks are completely useless. Even if using Defiance to help Enrage, you only need Rank 2.


Here's a sample build. You try and tell me where I should be taking away advantage points so I can put them in Invuln for a whopping -30 dmg or whatever.

Superstats:
Level 5: Super Strength
Level 13: Super Intelligence

Powers:
Level 1: Force Bolts -- Energy Refraction
Level 1: Force Blast -- Crippling Challenge
Level 5: Force Shield -- Force Sheath
Level 5: Superspeed -- Rank 2
Level 8: Roomsweeper -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 11: Invulnerability
Level 14: Mighty Leap -- Nailed to the Ground
Level 17: Field Drones -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 20: Aggressor -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 23: Immolation
Level 26: Force Cascade -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 29: Electric Sheath -- Matter - Energy Union
Level 32: Inexorable Tides -- Rank 3, Rank 2
Level 35: Unstoppable
Level 35: Teleport
Level 38: Enrage -- Rank 3, Rank 2

Talents:
Level 1: Mechanized
Level 6: Physical Conditioning
Level 9: Body And Mind
Level 12: Healthy Mind
Level 15: Field Ops Training
Level 18: Paramilitary Training
Level 21: Covert Ops Training

I would take one off of enrage maybe 2 because your intelligence makes it come back fast enough...unless all you have is the super stat...then i cant rerally say.

And maybe might take one of room sweeper....becasue the difference between 2 and 3 for damage is not alot......its less impressive difference then invulnerability at rank 3 which takes damage off every hit.

but again like i said i would probably remove two from enrage because all you have is a decreased recharge for it for ther ranks...and with super stat intellignece that means the differnce is like only a few seconds....whihc ytou probably would beat your opponent in anywise.

And by the way...30 only at rank 3?

Mine is like 89 at rank 3...i must have ubber strength of something...i didnt think so...but go figure.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 05:58 PM
I prefer to fully rank attacks and primary heals before ranking invulnerability. I wouldn't say it's a waste of points to rank up invul, but if the rest of the build is tight on points then I think skipping invul is a good option.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 06:08 PM
I prefer to fully rank attacks and primary heals before ranking invulnerability. I wouldn't say it's a waste of points to rank up invul, but if the rest of the build is tight on points then I think skipping invul is a good option.

If my character is supposed to be 'tough' I'll rank up their passive defense to 3.
If my character isn't 'tough' I'll just leave the passive at rank one as a 'weakness'.
For PvP however, when running a passive defense, definitely rank 3.
When Champs finally gets some raid content, ranking passives might become more important for that kind of thing.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 06:53 PM
If my character is supposed to be 'tough' I'll rank up their passive defense to 3.
If my character isn't 'tough' I'll just leave the passive at rank one as a 'weakness'.


Agreed. With concept as the priority it's fine to do whatever someone wants, since it's all made up.

For PvP however, when running a passive defense, definitely rank 3.

Ranking up Invul can be a minor benefit compared to other options, sometimes. Ranking Invulnerability for PvP is a bit ridiculous, when quite often attacks are hitting for over 1000 damage and the fights last only a few seconds, absorbing an extra 10 or 20 damage per attack is not going to make a difference compared to other ways the points could be spent.

Archived Post
12-08-2010, 06:58 PM
Ranking up invuln only increases the absorption aspect of the power - the amount that it reduces incoming attacks by before the flat 30% damage reduction it also applies. At least, this is how it looked when I respecced my str/con tank.

Archived Post
12-09-2010, 04:53 AM
Agreed. With concept as the priority it's fine to do whatever someone wants, since it's all made up.



Ranking up Invul can be a minor benefit compared to other options, sometimes. Ranking Invulnerability for PvP is a bit ridiculous, when quite often attacks are hitting for over 1000 damage and the fights last only a few seconds, absorbing an extra 10 or 20 damage per attack is not going to make a difference compared to other ways the points could be spent.

CAN be a bit rediculous? yes those rec int toons shouldnt have it to begin with. lol

no but seriously, obviously if your build is a glass cannon you're either not gonna go with invuln at all or not rank it. there's just something about the word "glass" that undoes the word "super" for me.

Archived Post
12-13-2010, 07:56 PM
I'm more of a concept toon builder, enjoying some good rp as well as teaming up for game play. I ALWAYS max out my Passive Defenses (usually Invul or Lightning Reflexes).

That being said, I like to play like my character does in my mind, so I tend to focus on one or two attributes in order to max out the effectiveness of my passive defenses.

My main toon is a lvl 40 Might Tank. I have put everything I can into his STR rating, hovering it just around 300 (I have to be honest I think it is like 298, but it might be 302, I can't remember right now). With my Rank 3 Invul, my guys ignores 158 points of damage EVERY shot, on top of the 30% resistance. I'm ok with that, and it lets me hold down aggro for longer periods, letting my team do their thing.

For my LR guys, I rank up to 3 ASAP, and max out my DEX with as many slotted items as I can, making my guys dodge and avoid attacks that are hammering my team, or tripping them up, allowing him to do his thing, in landing multiple damages sweeping hits (usually Dragon Kick and Inexorable Tides) to hit multiple enemies at once.

I have one Regen character, once again, 3 ranks, he is healing for over 400 points every time he regens (under 4 secs). He gets his A LOT.....but he is VERY hard to put down. He can lock aggro with the best scrappers (he's also a MA build), and can hold down a ton of enemies, freeing up his ranged teammates to pick off the enemy without having to worry about getting too close, and staying in the fight for long periods of time, when he otherwise would be eating the floor.

Like I said, this is just my two cents...but I think that (for me) playing my concept toons, taking max ranks in passives allows me to not only play like I want to play, but helps me fulfill my role in the team as well.

Archived Post
12-13-2010, 08:21 PM
Ranks in Defiance do nothing but increase how many stacks you maintain out of combat. That means after the first 20 seconds of the fight, the ranks are completely useless. Even if using Defiance to help Enrage, you only need Rank 2.


the above statement isn't quite accurate, the ranks also affect the internal timing of the power effects on you.

Having been misled myself by forum theorycratfing about Defiance in the past (mostly by people who don't really play Might often at all), do yourself a favor and try this:

copy 2 versions of the same toon over to PTS. Make one with R2 and one with R3 Defiance. Take both through SL and DF on Elite or even VH. You'll notice it, I guarantee it. In fact, do that for pretty much everything you read on this forum, you'll thank yourself later ;)

Archived Post
12-14-2010, 06:01 AM
the above statement isn't quite accurate, the ranks also affect the internal timing of the power effects on you.

Having been misled myself by forum theorycratfing about Defiance in the past (mostly by people who don't really play Might often at all), do yourself a favor and try this:

copy 2 versions of the same toon over to PTS. Make one with R2 and one with R3 Defiance. Take both through SL and DF on Elite or even VH. You'll notice it, I guarantee it. In fact, do that for pretty much everything you read on this forum, you'll thank yourself later ;)

well said. that's one of the better tests for a build, elite DF or SL.

Archived Post
12-14-2010, 06:04 AM
even if its true, which in my experience its not so simple....i would also like to punch a hole in the logic that, if all it does is related to the first 20 seconds of combat, that its not worth taking.

many builds can kill you or have you close to death in 20 seconds. same for many elite room pulls. to me extra stacks of something that scales your dmg resist is well....awesome in that first 20 seconds!.

Archived Post
12-14-2010, 08:33 AM
If you're planning to min/max, then it's not always a question of whether you should or should not rank up a power (in this case Invuln) in a vacuum. The question should be, are my points better spent elsewhere.

In most builds I've used with Invuln, I would say yes it is worth upgrading to rank 3. Especially if you plan on layering defenses on top of Invuln (Laser Knight, stacks of defiance from other powers, dodge from gear, etc). The damage shield is what improves with ranks of Invuln, and as you layer more defenses on top of Invuln, the benefit of that damage shield grows multiplicatively.

In all builds I have used with Defiance, I would say no, it's not worth upgrading to rank 3. Actually, all of my defiance builds never go past rank 1. If you have chosen defiance in the first place, most likely you are SS CON. You are also probably in the Protector stance. The combination of those 2 should provide you with enough HP to survive initial alphas, from either PVE or PVP. That will free up 4 advantage points to spend elsewhere, potentially a heal which will benefit you more in the long run anyways.

Archived Post
12-14-2010, 04:03 PM
In all builds I have used with Defiance, I would say no, it's not worth upgrading to rank 3. Actually, all of my defiance builds never go past rank 1. If you have chosen defiance in the first place, most likely you are SS CON. You are also probably in the Protector stance. The combination of those 2 should provide you with enough HP to survive initial alphas, from either PVE or PVP. That will free up 4 advantage points to spend elsewhere, potentially a heal which will benefit you more in the long run anyways.

For general gameplay sure. For tanking Elite, I'd go the R3. I've tested Defiance to death on Elite bosses and yeah, you can actually visibly notice the difference even from R2 to R3. I considered things like SS CON, other survivability powers etc as a given already and so not worth mentioning.

Archived Post
12-14-2010, 04:17 PM
even if its true, which in my experience its not so simple....i would also like to punch a hole in the logic that, if all it does is related to the first 20 seconds of combat, that its not worth taking.

many builds can kill you or have you close to death in 20 seconds. same for many elite room pulls. to me extra stacks of something that scales your dmg resist is well....awesome in that first 20 seconds!.

There are powers where rank ups would benefit your survivability more than ranking up your passive defense. If you've spent all the points you can on powers that help you get over that theoretcial 20 seconds, then go ahead and rank up your passive.