The Behemoth Archetype

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Quite frankly, this one is just awful...

Whoever did this probably has little idea of how Might really works, unless there are some huge changes coming for Thunderclap by its release.

Shockwave at level 40?

They need it as soon as possible given the proposed progression. And don't get me started on using Defensive Combo as your only real damaging power until level 27, this is gonna be a huge pain to level.

Could I get some sort of explanation as to why that is?

Cause the way I see it, it doesn't even have Enrage or anything beyond Thunderclap to build it; so even if you are trying to emphasize the tanking aspect of the archetype, they really won't be close to be on par with a Gold Player. Or perhaps this is just some kind of hook to make them buy power-ups off the C-Store…

Heck, the Fire and Ice ones get a decent single target attack and a do-it-all AoE by level 6 (I'm assuming you really mean 5); can't they at least get Roomsweeper or some other new or re-worked power?


NOTE : By the way, The Mind and The Blade seems to suffer from similar problems.

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They need it as soon as possible given the proposed progression. And don't get me started on using Defensive Combo as your only real damaging power until level 27 is gonna be a huge pain to level.

Would have to agree.

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Enrage is so cool of course its going to be a subscriber only power :P

Well, perhaps PvP cries influenced the decision to not have enrage + agressor in the same archetype...one can wonder.

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Hey, at least it gets the right SS for its passive..... (unlike fire and ice)

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I do question some of the choices (Hurl and Aggressor) and would probably move a few things around (Demolish should come earlier IMO), but the more and more I look at it the more baffled I get.

I understand why Shockwave is the last power. They're saving the best for last. I get that. But there just isn't a lot of meat between level 1 and 27. Are they really expected to go for so many levels with just Clobber, Defensive Combo, and Hurl? How would you ever take out a Master, or for that matter, a Super on your own? No active defense? No heal?

Yeah, I'm not really understanding this build. Soloing will be painful without earlier high damage single target attacks, and tanking will be difficult without an active defense and/or heal. So what exactly are you supposed to do?

I'm not trying to be all negative and all, but looking at it calmly and rationally I just don't get it.

EDIT: And geez... no Roomsweeper! Arguably the most fun power in the Might set, and it's not there! :confused:

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Are they really expected to go for so many levels with just Clobber, Defensive Combo, and Hurl? How would you ever take out a Master, or for that matter, a Super on your own? No active defense? No heal?

It is actually possible to get to 20 with just Defiance and Defensive Combo, I've done it before when I started my first Might toon with Beatdown. But that's forgetting that I used Roomsweeper exclusively as an AoE, and used Beatdown as soon as there was nothing in range.

But from there, things were starting to get a little too real for my taste, so I bought a retcon off the C-Store and tried again.

The only way this build can possibly work, is if Defensive Combo turns into a cone AoE with the same capabilities it got now with no knockback.

Hurl is probably there for PVP purpose, seems like somebody is betting a lot on Thunderclap...

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It is actually possible to get to 20 with just Defiance and Defensive Combo, I've done it before when I started my first Might toon with Beatdown. But that's forgetting that I used Roomsweeper exclusively as an AoE, and used Beatdown as soon as there was nothing in range.

But from there, things were starting to get a little too real for my taste, so I bought a retcon off the C-Store and tried again.

The only way this build can possibly work, is if Defensive Combo turns into a cone AoE with the same capabilities it got now with no knockback.

Hurl is probably there for PVP purpose, seems like somebody is betting a lot on Thunderclap...

There's a big difference between "possible" and "enjoyable". Thunderclap is good for what it is, more crowd control than anything else. But it's just not going to help you take out Masters and Supers.

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Yeah, I'm not really understanding this build. Soloing will be painful without earlier high damage single target attacks, and tanking will be difficult without an active defense and/or heal. So what exactly are you supposed to do?

You're not supposed to solo, I think.

As far as I can tell, these archetypes are -forced- grouping on NORMAL content. Not Hard. not Very Hard. And for sure not Elite.

Looking at the Telepathy role.. You get your EB and tier 1 power until 17, when you get a pet. And not a great one, either.. That'll be hell to solo your way up. But I don't think you're supposed to.

Looks like we're back to the glory days in EQ1 of "Cleric LFG!"

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I actually think they're just aiming for Theme first and foremost.

I mean you all have to remember, they're not trying to make these people amazingly powerful. I'm absolutely convinced most of these can solo; the difference is, these cannot solo with an unskilled player in the same fashion as a custom powergamed character could.

I guess what I'm saying is:

Viable character does not mean "Can stride across the world crushing all resistance like an ancient god of war." It means more like "Can conceivably do non-lair missions with a little work. May die from time to time."

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You're not supposed to solo, I think.

As far as I can tell, these archetypes are -forced- grouping on NORMAL content. Not Hard. not Very Hard. And for sure not Elite.

Looking at the Telepathy role.. You get your EB and tier 1 power until 17, when you get a pet. And not a great one, either.. That'll be hell to solo your way up. But I don't think you're supposed to.

Looks like we're back to the glory days in EQ1 of "Cleric LFG!"

Unfortunately that would explain a lot looking at some of these builds. I knew these builds weren't going to be uber, but I wasn't expecting them to be so gimpy either. It really does look like they're going the forced holy trinity route. But the big question is is it too late to go there? Are Silvers going to be satisfied being forced into teaming while Golds run around soloing almost everything? I dunno. I don't have a good answer. For us it's a giant nerf, but for someone who's never played a free form character what they don't know won't hurt them.

My gut is that it's going to create a ridiculously wide gap between the ATs and FFs, and I'm not sure that's such a great idea. I could be wrong. Again, it's just my gut reaction.

I think we need to get some kind of clarification from Poz on what exactly is the intent here. If forced teaming is the goal, we really need to know that. If it's not the goal, then these builds are troublesome.

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Are Silvers going to be satisfied being forced into teaming while Golds run around soloing almost everything?

I think that's the big question, isn't it....

What are Silver's going to say when my SS INT Dual blader with LR/LK and triple-stacked BCR solos Andrith on Elite?

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I don't think they'll be forced into teaming if they're halfway competent.

I'm kind of confused why so many people are... well confused about the builds. I've run builds only slightly better and soloed easily, back when I was learning the game. Champions is just not a tough game as-is for someone with custom powers. Even on a concept build that ignores a lot of standard advice I can solo with no issue.

With the ATs, yeah, it'll be harder - they'll probably be closer to your standard MMO character, where you can take one spawn at a time, maybe 2 if you push it (though careful use of green orbs could push that out). Basically it's going to require some work to do anything close to what we do today normally. I just do not see this as a 'forced teaming' situation.

A situation where there's some incentive to team? Absolutely. And maybe The Mind will have to (and maybe The Grimoire, depending on the new powers); but the rest I think can solo; it just won't be the cakewalk we have as customs.

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Mind you, I'd simply settle for Archetypes to be 'Playable'; keep in mind, that they're supposed to run Lairs, alongside us.

Cause the way they are, even on Normal, I doubt The Behemoth is ever gonna make it through Teleios Tower short of blocking the whole time...

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Its a joke of a build to be sure. I think that's the idea...give people the taste of the powers and the bait them over to gold. I don't think they want to loose subscribers by offering them archetypes that are just "good enough" to make them happy enough to stop paying Cryptic.

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Viable character does not mean "Can stride across the world crushing all resistance like an ancient god of war." It means more like "Can conceivably do non-lair missions with a little work. May die from time to time."
I don't think anyone is expecting a silver character to be a "god of war", but these builds are just flat out bad.

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Imagine if they took out Defiance and put Invulnerability instead.

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Imagine if they took out Defiance and put Invulnerability instead.

That would be one way to make it worse than it is already.

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Imagine if they took out Defiance and put Invulnerability instead.
Shrug. For PvE builds that aren't kitted out in full sets of scaled blues, that's not really worse.

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Shrug. For PvE builds that aren't kitted out in full sets of scaled blues, that's not really worse.

The energy return is the biggest issue. Invul is a perfectly good power, superior to Defiance in a number of ways. But without the energy return it leaves Might high and dry.

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The energy return is the biggest issue. Invul is a perfectly good power, superior to Defiance in a number of ways. But without the energy return it leaves Might high and dry.
Well in the case of the Behemoth, pressing Thunderclap every 6 seconds wouldnt use much energy anyway.

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Well in the case of the Behemoth, pressing Thunderclap every 6 seconds wouldnt use much energy anyway.

Very true. It won't be an issue until after level 27 when you have the big hitters as well as Aggressor's constant drain.

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I actually think they're just aiming for Theme first and foremost.

I mean you all have to remember, they're not trying to make these people amazingly powerful. I'm absolutely convinced most of these can solo; the difference is, these cannot solo with an unskilled player in the same fashion as a custom powergamed character could.

I guess what I'm saying is:

Viable character does not mean "Can stride across the world crushing all resistance like an ancient god of war." It means more like "Can conceivably do non-lair missions with a little work. May die from time to time."

Actually I think an argument could be made that part of what makes a superhero super is his ability to stride across the world like some sort of god.

What theyve designed in some cases are superheroes that might struggle against small groups of henchmen.

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"When you're teamed up with other heroes a lot of them will be depending on you to soak up enemy fire so charge in and start attacking!"

And good luck keeping the aggro.

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In stead of arm chairing it, why not retcon and try it.

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I do believe that Hurl and Demolish should be switched...but thats it.

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Very true. It won't be an issue until after level 27 when you have the big hitters as well as Aggressor's constant drain.
If you've got that far as a Behemoth I doubt a little energy management will phase you, its just bad all over no matter how you look at it(based off live power). For this Archetype to anything close to viable I'd say it needs to look more like . .

Clobber
Defensive Combo
Strength
Defiance
Uppercut
Mighty Leap
Constitution
Retaliation
Thunderclap
Aggressor
Hurl
Demolish
Enrage

If they want to deny the Behemoth big damage they should lower Demolish's energy cost and damage, make it essentially Uppercut but with a debuff instead of knockup. Without Haymaker they wouldnt have major damage output but it would be enough to be playable.

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In stead of arm chairing it, why not retcon and try it.

Instead of retconning to try it at a high level why not start a new toon as it. Really. Play The Behemoth up to 27 and come back here with a straight face and tell me it's fine.

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If you've got that far as a Behemoth I doubt a little energy management will phase you, its just bad all over no matter how you look at it(based off live power). For this Archetype to anything close to viable I'd say it needs to look more like . .

Clobber
Defensive Combo
Strength
Defiance
Uppercut
Mighty Leap
Constitution
Retaliation
Thunderclap
Aggressor
Hurl
Demolish
Enrage

If they want to deny the Behemoth big damage they should lower Demolish's energy cost and damage, make it essentially Uppercut but with a debuff instead of knockup. Without Haymaker they wouldnt have major damage output but it would be enough to be playable.

Actually, considering it's a tanking set I'd like to see something more like this:

Clobber
Defensive Combo
Strength
Mighty Leap
Defiance
Roomsweeper
Constitution
Retaliation
Thunderclap
Demolish
Hurl
Uppercut
Shockwave

Roomsweeper is the most iconic power in the Might set. Leaving it out is criminal. It also allows you to build stacks of Enrage, so the Enrage power isn't necessary. Shockwave is another bread and butter power, and I think it's a perfect choice for lvl 40 (gotta give them something meaty for putting up with the AT for 40 levels).

The problem with Aggressor is that it only buffs melee crushing damage. This leaves out Hurl, Thunderclap, and Shockwave. I don't see the point in using it if it's only going to buff half your attacks, yet still drain energy on everything.

The above build is by no means uber, but at least it makes sense and is solid. You're not gimping along for 27 levels, nor are you wasting energy on a buff that only works 50% of the time.

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Instead of retconning to try it at a high level why not start a new toon as it. Really. Play The Behemoth up to 27 and come back here with a straight face and tell me it's fine.

I just might delete a toon and start a new. Are you?

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I'd rather see something like...

Clobber
Roomsweeper
Mighty Leap
Defiance
Uppercut
Retaliation
Havoc Stomp
Resurgence
Demolish
Enrage
Shockwave

I just might delete a toon and start a new. Are you?
I don't need to delete any toons. I've got no problems with a new toon. I'll try out The Mind if you use The Behemoth. When do you usually play?

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I just might delete a toon and start a new. Are you?

There is no point, especially since we've been told that there are new powers and ported powers that we don't have access to. So it wouldn't be a legitimate test.

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There is no point, especially since we've been told that there are new powers and ported powers that we don't have access to. So it wouldn't be a legitimate test.

I'd say The Mind and The Behemoth AT's could be tested on live right now. No new powers there at least. The SS's match the passives as well. Unless they're *drastically* changing a lot of already established powers (not necessarily a bad thing!) it'll still be a telling test.

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I'd rather see something like...

Clobber
Roomsweeper
Mighty Leap
Defiance
Uppercut
Retaliation
Havoc Stomp
Resurgence
Demolish
Enrage
Shockwave

As a tank set you kinda need Defensive Combo for threat generation. I know, it's not much, but every bit counts. And as much as it pains me, again, for a tank I think Thunderclap is better than Havoc Stomp. As for swapping Hurl for Resurgence, it's a 50/50. I do think some kind of active defense or heal is a good idea (I think Unbreakable would be thematically better than Resurgence). But Hurl is very important for PvP. So it's a mixed bag.

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There is no point, especially since we've been told that there are new powers and ported powers that we don't have access to. So it wouldn't be a legitimate test.

Do you actually expect defensive combo and thunderclap to be radically different?

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I'd say The Mind and The Behemoth AT's could be tested on live right now. No new powers there at least. The SS's match the passives as well. Unless they're *drastically* changing a lot of already established powers (not necessarily a bad thing!) it'll still be a telling test.

You could not pay me enough to play either of those unfortunately.

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Actually, considering it's a tanking set I'd like to see something more like this:
I dont really see how Roomsweeper plus Defensive combo for all that time is that much of an improvement. Also having so many AoEs in one build is a total waste in my opinion, granted my setup was light on AoEs.

Shockwave as a level 40 power is really lame too, all that way and your ultimate power is Shockwave? The main reasons I picked Enrage was because it only really does one thing and that build getting it at level 40 would be like Christmas.

Thunderclap is a melee damage AoE by the way.

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Do you actually expect defensive combo and thunderclap to be radically different?

No, I wasn't talking about Behemoth. SirCato talked about trying a number of the new ATs by respeccing into them on live. I'm just pointing out how many don't have 1:1 comparisons with the powers currently on live, and that wouldn't make it a fair test.

But yeah, The Behemoth and The Mind you could in theory do, but I won't. I'm not that much of a sadomasochist.

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Switch Demolish and Hurl.
Get rid of Aggressor...put Shockwave in its place.
Put Havoc Stomp at level 40.

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I dont really see how Roomsweeper plus Defensive combo for all that time is that much of an improvement. Also having so many AoEs in one build is a total waste in my opinion, granted my setup was light on AoEs.

Shockwave as a level 40 power is really lame too, all that way and your ultimate power is Shockwave? The main reasons I picked Enrage was because it only really does one thing and that build getting it at level 40 would be like Christmas.

Thunderclap is a melee damage AoE by the way.

Melee sonic damage, not crushing. And you don't see how Defensive Combo + Roomsweeper is better than just Defensive Combo? And the AoE's are necessary to generate threat for tanking. Again, this is a tanking build.

And what's wrong with Shockwave? It's probably the 2nd best power in the set, right behind Roomsweeper. If you're using Roomsweeper and Thunderclap you don't need the Enrage power cause you'll constantly be building Enrage stacks anyway.

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Melee sonic damage, not crushing. And you don't see how Defensive Combo + Roomsweeper is better than just Defensive Combo? And the AoE's are necessary to generate threat for tanking. Again, this is a tanking build.

And what's wrong with Shockwave? It's probably the 2nd best power in the set, right behind Roomsweeper. If you're using Roomsweeper and Thunderclap you don't need the Enrage power cause you'll constantly be building Enrage stacks anyway.

Thunderclap is crushing damage.
If you get the Adv...it gives an extra 5ft of radius which is sonic damage.

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As a tank set you kinda need Defensive Combo for threat generation. I know, it's not much, but every bit counts. And as much as it pains me, again, for a tank I think Thunderclap is better than Havoc Stomp. As for swapping Hurl for Resurgence, it's a 50/50. I do think some kind of active defense or heal is a good idea (I think Unbreakable would be thematically better than Resurgence). But Hurl is very important for PvP. So it's a mixed bag.

I'm fairly certain full charge demolish spam will hold aggro better than defensive combo spam. For the most part, DPS > Threat. Mighty leap fills in for hurl as the TP remover and crip challenge power *and* gets the player in melee range, unlike hurl. As far as thunderclap over havoc stomp... I could see that assuming the challenging strikes bug w/ powers that have cooldowns is still there.

Then again... we're all kinda spitting in the wind since we don't have the full story on all the power changes :(

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Melee sonic damage, not crushing. And you don't see how Defensive Combo + Roomsweeper is better than just Defensive Combo? And what's wrong with Shockwave?
Your wrong . .

I said not much of an improvement . .

I never said anything was wrong with Shockwave . .

I've grown tired of replying to you.

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Thunderclap is crushing damage.
If you get the Adv...it gives an extra 5ft of radius which is sonic damage.

I stand corrected. But it still doesn't make Aggressor a good choice.

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Your wrong . .

I said not much of an improvement . .

I never said anything was wrong with Shockwave . .

I've grown tired of replying to you.

Because I asked you to clarify yourself? Do you normally prefer one-sided discussions where no one calls you on what you say?

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I keep looking at this every possible way since yesterday, and the simplest fix that doesn't compromise its intent, is as follow:


1 : Clobber
1 : Defensive Combo
SS - 6 Strength
6 : Roomsweeper
Passive - 8 Defiance
11 : Thunderclap
SS - 13 Constitution
Block - 14 Retaliation
17 : Mighty Leap
22 : Conviction
27 : Uppercut
32 : Aggressor
40 : Shockwave


It's not that great, and here I mostly assume that Enrage is blacklisted, so we could have one of those Clone Powers people are talking about where Roomsweeper doesn't generate Enraged stacks at all.

CON as a Super Stat isn't taken until level 13, you still don't get Uppercut until level 27, which in turn gimps you since you won't have Demolish + Below the Belt and Uppercut was slightly nerfed in the previous patch.

We drop Hurl for Mighty Leap (as they are redundant), which is swapped for Roomsweeper early on; carrying the whole build all the way up to level 27 while preserving the fun factor of Might.

Aggressor gets swapped further up the build for balance reasons and we are dropping Demolish in order to add Conviction; which won't unbalance it too much, as it will require heavy use of PRE, which competes with other superstats to begin with. That way, they at least get some measure of intangible mitigation without being too tough.

Alternatively, Conviction may be swapped for Masterful Dodge or Unbreakable as we don't have Bountiful Chi Resurgence to begin with.

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I'd rather see something like...

Clobber
Roomsweeper
Mighty Leap
Defiance
Uppercut
Retaliation
Havoc Stomp
Resurgence
Demolish
Enrage
Shockwave


I don't need to delete any toons. I've got no problems with a new toon. I'll try out The Mind if you use The Behemoth. When do you usually play?

I'll be on around 6- 7 pm EST. I'm going to skip the tutorial.

Anyone else want to experiment with a an AT tonight?

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What do you all think of this?

Clobber
Defensive Combo
Mighty Leap
Defiance
Beatdown
Retaliation
Thunderclap
Aggressor or Enrage
Hurl
Uppercut
Havoc Stomp or Shockwave

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The sad thing is that Behemoth is one of the more viable AT's in the list (the other being The Blade).

The Glacier is actually probably viable for soloing too with Invuln. Might have to stack some Str.

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I dont really see how Roomsweeper plus Defensive combo for all that time is that much of an improvement.
I do. I've used roomsweeper as my only attack on might toons for multiple levels. It's not ideal, because it's kind of expensive, but it's considerably higher dps than DC and it lets you build enrage stacks and aggressor stacks.

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The sad thing is that Behemoth is one of the more viable AT's in the list (the other being The Blade).

The Glacier is actually probably viable for soloing too with Invuln. Might have to stack some Str.

Granted, I did not play through the levels as I am with Behemoth. But I retconed a 27 as The Savage, and a 40 as The Inferno. They were good in PvE. PvP was weak. Let's not forget. You get to pick your innate, talents, and advantages. They can make a big difference too. I have a twelve or thirteen I am going to use for Glacier.

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You could not pay me enough to play either of those unfortunately.

It's more like, fortunately you wouldn't be paying them to play either of them. However, they are hoping you will pay them to play toons infinitely better than these.

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Do you normally prefer one-sided discussions where no one calls you on what you say?
Yes.

It's not ideal, because it's kind of expensive, but it's considerably higher dps than DC and it lets you build enrage stacks and aggressor stacks.
That not really saying much though is it, theres very little if anything that wouldnt be an improvement. I still dont see how forcing players to level into the mid twenties with just either of these powers when Uppercut or Demolish could be taken classes as an improvement.

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I think seeing a Gold Might player to silver players will be the equivalent of seeing Superman in person.

Only used powers, Roomsweeper, Havoc Stomp and Haymaker. So while the silver Behemoth is trying to Def Combo things to death at level 20, the level 20 gold Superman is sending foes flying left and right while being unkillable.

That would be a hilarious scene.

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Hmmm even with just Defensive Passive and Thunderclap you can manage but it takes some strategy. One thing you have is Strength super statted which means you can pick up trucks to hurl at a group of enemies for a lot of damage coupled that with Thunderclap's stunning power you can manage to pick up objects around the battlefield using that stunned time wisely and give them a nice little present while fighting. It's also a good idea to open up a fight by throwing a truck or tank. Might be easier for beginning Behemoths to use Demolish or Uppercut earlier on but it's not impossible to level this way either.

You can also get the 10% chance to get Enrage effect (Onslaught) for Clobber for a bit of boost in damage. Enrage doesn't stack up until you get the standard Enrage power but it'll help.

Demolish or Uppercut should be reasonable to get at about level 17. Doesn't seem right to make them be earned right after the other IMO

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Hmmm even with just Defensive Passive and Thunderclap you can manage but it takes some strategy. One thing you have is Strength super statted which means you can pick up trucks to hurl at a group of enemies for a lot of damage coupled that with Thunderclap's stunning power you can manage to pick up objects around the battlefield using that stunned time wisely and give them a nice little present while fighting. It's also a good idea to open up a fight by throwing a truck or tank. Might be easier for beginning Behemoths to use Demolish or Uppercut earlier on but it's not impossible to level this way either.

You can also get the 10% chance to get Enrage effect (Onslaught) for Clobber for a bit of boost in damage. Enrage doesn't stack up until you get the standard Enrage power but it'll help.

Demolish or Uppercut should be reasonable to get at about level 17. Doesn't seem right to make them be earned right after the other IMO

Doesn't Thunderclap stack Enrage buffs?

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Yea, what is the deal with Behemoth? It's totally all over the place and yea, Shockwave so late?

I still don't get why they're giving Fire TR and Flashfire sooooo late in the build. Unless Ame decided to make TR not scale on Pre and just scale on superstats then made Fire about 3/4 as expensive (Which has always been it's tradeoff to how good the powers are), I don't see how they expect the Fire AT to work out.

And Ice was looking solid until they stuck in a defensive passive. Sure it makes you survivable for solo, but huh? :eek: No damage boost.

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A number of ATs will change before they go live. They aren't set in stone. And the Glacier is a tanking set, which is why it has Invulnerability instead of a damage boost.

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A tanking Ice. Interesting. Took me a while to catch on to that one, but yea I can see it. Who can kill a glacier right?

But yea. hopefully they will change or they're gonna be really hard to play. :(

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Doesn't Thunderclap stack Enrage buffs?
Yeah but I took the Onslaught advantage before I hit the appropriate level to get Thunderclap.

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Yeah but I took the Onslaught advantage before I hit the appropriate level to get Thunderclap.

You commented that you needed the Enrage power to stack Enrage buffs, but I believe Thunderclap will stack them, unlike some other abilities that only give 1 stack and only if you don't already have any.

Roomsweeper also stacks them as well. It isn't necessary to take the Enrage power to be able to stack the buffs.

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Thunderclap does but Onslaught doesn't seem to stack but only refresh. Kind of destroys my ideas for future builds now.

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Thunderclap does but Onslaught doesn't seem to stack but only refresh. Kind of destroys my ideas for future builds now.

I think most people consider Onslaught to be a waste.

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Also...Thunderclap only adds a stack when you use it one 3 or more enemies.