Archetype Advancement

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Let's use this thread to discuss this News Post (http://www.champions-online.com/node/595109).

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The lower number of powers and slower Advantage point schedule on top of the restricted choices definitely adds increased appeal to going gold and playing a Free-Form character.

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I said there but I'll repeat it:

Reducing characters to 1 role seems like a bad idea. Give maybe a few of the extra power slots as a free choice in the last few levels to let players maybe grab a 2nd passive to open up alternate roles for a character.

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I wouldn't mind opening up 1 or 2 powers in the end to flesh out the toon but I understand why the limitation. You don't think "filler powers" are needed. Opening it up in the end for 1 or 2 choices is late enough in the game to not have a huge advantage and gives a taste of customization.

I did like this:

We are modifying the point-earning schedule for free-form heroes, specifically for they’ll earn Advantage Points. Rather than getting two points every "off" level, they will get one or two Advantage Points every level starting at level seven. This gives free-form heroes more advantage points early on. They will now have 11 points by level 16, where previously they would only have six.

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I wanna see the "brick" archetype before I decide on gold/silver.

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I agree with Socks somewhat.

If nothing else just assign 3 more powers into the build with the idea of adding a little versatility to the character and then allow 1 additional build. I understand the approach of making a more one dimensional toon, but 2 dimensions could be more fun for the Silver players and still give them the endgame reward of being able to taste the potential a gold player has on all their toons.

An example of this would be Brick which could be a more tank-y build until the last 3 powers and then pick up the option to switch to Brawler with an Off Pass if they so wish. ;)

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More points early on will make choices easier for new players, at the cost of having less interesting trade-offs to be made for experienced players. Once we get used to the new advancement, there won't be much difference in terms of content, although the lower tiers of unrestricted PvP will become even more difficult for casual players.

The bombshell of archetypes having only 11 powers. At this point I make use of all 14 powers and I would love to have even more powers, but I can remember when I was a new player and my characters felt fairly complete at level 20. So it should work out reasonably OK for new people.

I will say, with the archetypes being that bad / unfun for players like myself, I am even more threatened than ever by this "Archetypes-Only PvP." Soon I will make a thread asking for in-game incentives for unrestricted PvP (such as, adding attractive acclaim rewards and specifying that AO-PvP does not award acclaim).

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I'm genuinely ambivalent about the latest matrix. It's going to matter more how it feels rather than how it looks on paper. We need to test this ASAP.:cool:

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the whole point of less powers and them being chosen is to show what a class sytem is silver members and what an open system is Gold members to open up powers for silver members is a bad idea now letting them purchase them in the cstore is one thing entirely different. the difference between powers is huge and should be to promote subscription or cstore purchase to get more content and bring money into the game. and if you dont like the silver membership because of it then just keep subscribing to the game to keep your Gold Membership. AND I LOVE THE ADVANTAGE POINT CHANGE SO MUCH NICER.

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I like that Silver members will be limited in a lot of ways, including the number of powers and diversity of their build options. This gives Gold members something worth spending the money on. In the end, the Silver memberships are really only there to entice you into buying a Gold. Giving too much for free would be counter productive.

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i would like to see the block power as a free power though taken at the silver membership lvl for gold members as well upping out total number of powers from 14 to 15 and 11 to 12 not a big difference but it could be exactly that extra point needed to get the concept fully fleshed out.

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Archetypes, however, are more like comic heroes. They don't switch roles; they do their one thing really well.


Oh, sup? Don't mind me just busy having multiple roles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman

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I must say, putting tier 4 powers on archetypes will be rather challenging, since it means zero non-set powers. I can see doing it for Tech and Supernatural, but Energy has no healing powers, Martial Arts has no laser knight (and no, elusive monk is not a substitute), Might has marginal heals, no active defenses, and no laser knight, Ego (TK) has no forms or lunges, though it might work for a telepath.

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14................. B............................+1

oops! :eek:

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We are modifying the point-earning schedule for free-form heroes, specifically for they’ll earn Advantage Points. Rather than getting two points every "off" level, they will get one or two Advantage Points every level starting at level seven. This gives free-form heroes more advantage points early on. They will now have 11 points by level 16, where previously they would only have six.
YES YES YES YES YES YES YES :D

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I think 3 power less is a bit restricting, but still it will depend on the specific build. Hopefully, gold archetypes will have more powers and being more flexible.

I think it would be difficult to make a fair judgment with so little information so far. The most important is the relation silver-gold-custom archetypes.

Even for silver archetypes I would expect to be able to switch between guardian and one of specialized roles.

Just a thought, in f2p the new free player should get at least the illusion of some fairness with the subscribers, it would be better to add some redundant powers rather than taking too many powers out.

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I think a lot of folks on this thread are sort of missing the point.

The whole point of having Silver members is to give people a free taste of the game that will get them to want to subscribe. If you make free accounts totally fulfilling and wonderful and just as good as pay accounts, why would someone pay money for the game?

The way this pay model works is, "Wow, this is a great free game, but I'm starting to feel a little restricted...hey I can upgrade my account and have the restrictions removed!"

Put another way, Cryptic doesn't want anybody who currently pays for the game to stop paying. They want to get more people to come in, like the game, and start paying also.

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You are going to have to actually balance the powersets with the power limit, or many ATs will be massively gimped.

ARCHERY
TELEPATHY
DARKNESS

Just off the top of my head.

I can make archery work but it requries alot of out of set powers.

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Well this reveal is interesting...I am delighted by the many MANY advantage points I'm going to have to spend for my gold chars...But at the same time I'm feeling less and less inclined towards silvers...Gimping their advantages, AND powers is a bit much IMO....

As a sidebar: Please keep in mind that if you make silver completely undesirable, it doesn't mean people will switch to gold...it means they won't play. I think you Devs need to keep that point in mind as you're structuring silver...

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You are going to have to actually balance the powersets with the power limit, or many ATs will be massively gimped.

ARCHERY
TELEPATHY
DARKNESS

Just off the top of my head.

I can make archery work but it requries alot of out of set powers.

Still not paying attention, are you?

Archetypes will not be limited to one set.

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Let's use this thread to discuss this News Post (http://www.champions-online.com/node/595109).

White text on white background hard to read.

Just sayin.

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The whole point of having Silver members is to give people a free taste of the game that will get them to want to subscribe.

Trouble is that while this is true, there is more to it then simply that. For example, I will be a gold member, I will have a few archtype toons just to join the archetype only pvp to avoid the massive min/maxing hell that current pvp is. Yet by having those 3 less powers, I'll feel like I'm holding back my team if I ever pve at all with them. Not to mention I'd always feel like they would be my weakest toons because of it, even if they arent. It's a tricky thing.

I think the best solution is to add those last 3 powers back in, but make them the last 3 power picks and give them the option to chose between say 6 potential similar themed powers. Ala "Hmm should I pick my innate energy building passive or that situational control power". A restricted choice so you cant 'screw up', a taste of gold subscriber features, and still technically on par with other players.

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well truth be told they actually already HAVE this system in place, in the nemesis creation setup they all have predetermined power sets, so for a possibly slight preview of this go fight your nemesis a bit and see what powers they use.

So I actually think this system may work out just fine, lets see what they cook up, and they have no shortage of possible builds to work with for Archetypes, just go cruise the the powers and build forums for ideas and suggestions.

All and all I think this is gonna be great, new players get brought to the game I enjoy, gold account character building gets a nice little boost making it easier to level early on and seeing your creation take flight (metaphorically lol) earlier on, and makes a person switching from silver to gold accounts more worthwhile.

Lets see what comes next before judgment is passed, though at this point I am looking forward to this quite a bit :p

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I must say, putting tier 4 powers on archetypes will be rather challenging, since it means zero non-set powers. I can see doing it for Tech and Supernatural, but Energy has no healing powers, Martial Arts has no laser knight (and no, elusive monk is not a substitute), Might has marginal heals, no active defenses, and no laser knight, Ego (TK) has no forms or lunges, though it might work for a telepath.

That's assuming that the 10-power rule will apply to non-free-form archetypes. Since the powers are pre-chosen by the Devs, there's no reason it has to be.

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I will say, with the archetypes being that bad / unfun for players like myself, I am even more threatened than ever by this "Archetypes-Only PvP." Soon I will make a thread asking for in-game incentives for unrestricted PvP (such as, adding attractive acclaim rewards and specifying that AO-PvP does not award acclaim).Better not start advocating for AO-PVP to not give Acclaim, or it becomes impossible for casual PVPers to earn those costume parts that can only be earned from PVP.

All my characters cannot PVP without major overhauls and are designed for PVE. Should people like me really be unable to unlock costume pieces? No, that would be unfair dude. For those who can't compete in the regular PVP, Archetype PVP would be the only way to earn some Acclaim in a more balanced environment.Well this reveal is interesting...I am delighted by the many MANY advantage points I'm going to have to spend for my gold chars...But at the same time I'm feeling less and less inclined towards silvers...Gimping their advantages, AND powers is a bit much IMO....

As a sidebar: Please keep in mind that if you make silver completely undesirable, it doesn't mean people will switch to gold...it means they won't play. I think you Devs need to keep that point in mind as you're structuring silver...Actually Zod, the amount of advantage points for "current" chars is not changing, but they're just making us gain only a single point per level after the conversion. So there's not gonna be more points than there are now. :)

Although it's kinda obvious that the point of the gimps on Silver is to make it undesirable so people sub, I completely agree that too many gimps will not be an incentive to sub, and people will just not play instead.Still not paying attention, are you?

Archetypes will not be limited to one set.Although that is true, Socks, they also haven't said whether or not they plan to actually balance the Archetypes. Nobody says an Archery-based AT will necessarily have Resurgence or something. Just because they won't just be one set doesn't compel the Devs to actually make each AT self sufficient. Althoguh if too many are glass cannons that might promote buying boosts and/or subing for full power selection, so making the AT somebody wants to play unable to solo might entice the person to sub so they can "remake" that AT as a more self sufficient character.

Don't you think?

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I think that if they are going to have set archetypes, they should give those said heroes a special advantage available only for their archetype. Like (EXAMPLE ONLY)Brick getting a default extra touch of damage resist or bonus HP.

If they get a special AT only benefit for being limited, then those use to having more powers and AT players can go on missions together and not have the feeling of not being able to give their all, y'know?

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Although if too many are glass cannons that might promote buying boosts and/or subing for full power selection, so making the AT somebody wants to play unable to solo might entice the person to sub so they can "remake" that AT as a more self sufficient character.

Don't you think?
My 2 cents is this is where they'll have to be careful to provide Archetypes that are fun to play, while still having a clear reason to go gold.

Edit:
Being unable to solo in this game basically means being unable to play.

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Interesting. My snap observation is that archetypes would benefit from having their powers come slightly faster in the second half to bring the total number of power up to 12 and for the final power at level 40 to be their one singular opportunity to choose a power.

Two reasons for this - having a total of 12 powers sounds more structured and balanced to the casual observer that 11 (its an odd/even thing in the way the human brain is wired) and any player that has the fortitude to reach level 40 with one of these things has shown enough commitment to the game that giving them a little taste of the power of free-form selection seems like a good tool to tip them over to Gold status. You don't really have the depth of content to sell them on the idea there is another leveling path out there, so show them first hand how giddy a moment it is to open up the powerhouse menus and go prowling for that perfect capstone.

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Actually Zod, the amount of advantage points for "current" chars is not changing, but they're just making us gain only a single point per level after the conversion. So there's not gonna be more points than there are now. :)

Ahh...Okay, I see what they did there...they just moved split off the advantage points...for some reason....weird...You need at least 2 advantage points to buy the majority of worthwhile advantages....not sure I get why giving me one a level is supposed to help me...

That just comes off weird now...You wouldn't think that they'd be screwing with gold memberships any more than they had to....So I assume theres is a reasoning behind it...Its just not altogether clear what this...

As far as silve goes, here's my dilema:

I have at least 5 or six MMO friends who ahve never picked up Champions because of the generally negative atmosphere that it has through the MMO community....Now, I can now say that its going FTP, which has drawn the interest s of about half throse friends....and will continue to do so right up until they find out how inferior the FTP model is...

When that happens, they're going to drop off the map, lose interest, and most certainly never consider going gold...Thats not the reaction Cryptic should be garnering from potential players.

My two cents on that.

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I have at least 5 or six MMO friends who ahve never picked up Champions because of the generally negative atmosphere that it has through the MMO community....Now, I can now say that its going FTP, which has drawn the interest s of about half throse friends....and will continue to do so right up until they find out how inferior the FTP model is...

When that happens, they're going to drop off the map, lose interest, and most certainly never consider going gold...Thats not the reaction Cryptic should be garnering from potential players.

My two cents on that.

They're not hoping to attract those players. Those players are such a tiny, tiny proportion of the possible playerbase, and are always the hardest to convince, and many of the things they want will scare off more players.

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My 2 cents is this is where they'll have to be careful to provide Archetypes that are fun to play, while still having a clear reason to go gold.

Edit:
Being unable to solo in this game basically means being unable to play.Quite. I think we can give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt that they will include at least one Active Defense/heal/heal other/self heal per AT, otherwise that seriously makes them undesirable to the point of why bother.Ahh...Okay, I see what they did there...they just moved split off the advantage points...for some reason....weird...You need at least 2 advantage points to buy the majority of worthwhile advantages....not sure I get why giving me one a level is supposed to help me...

That just comes off weird now...You wouldn't think that they'd be screwing with gold memberships any more than they had to....So I assume theres is a reasoning behind it...Its just not altogether clear what this...

As far as silve goes, here's my dilema:

I have at least 5 or six MMO friends who ahve never picked up Champions because of the generally negative atmosphere that it has through the MMO community....Now, I can now say that its going FTP, which has drawn the interest s of about half throse friends....and will continue to do so right up until they find out how inferior the FTP model is...

When that happens, they're going to drop off the map, lose interest, and most certainly never consider going gold...Thats not the reaction Cryptic should be garnering from potential players.

My two cents on that.Well the thing is it ends up the same, just slower really. Either you gain 2 at some levels and none at others, or you get a steady stream of points every level. I guess they want to basically make it so people have something to look forward to every single level, not just some levels. Sure we end up with 1 point sitting there sometimes until we can actually use it next level, but isn't that how it is now though? Either I got no advantage points this level and could do nothing with them then got 2 next level and spent them, or got 1 I could do nothing with then another next level and spent them both. It seems like they're not really changing it, and the times at which we don't have the points at all will just turn into times when we have points we can't spend. See how that works out?

Man you have some weird friends dude. They need to stop following the peanut gallery. If I avoided every game I was told to avoid, I probably wouldn't have tried even half the games I tried (I liked them but had nobody to play them with so I still quit). You shouldn't believe everything you hear, am I right? Just because the pompous eliteists say STO sucks does not keep people from playing, and the game is doing okay. It shouldn't be keeping those friends from playing CO with you. Have you tried giving them a referral code at least?

Now about them losing interest, well if they don't think to sub after seeing what they could have for 15 bucks a month, then obviously they don't find the game enjoyable in the first place. Honestly, if a person finds they enjoy a game and can afford it if its P2P they will keep playing regardless of the bad hype.

There will always be haters. If you listen to the haters without giving things a chance, you lose out on opportunities. Your buds sure are missing out, dude. ;) Maybe show them my post? Nah, like they'd listen to me. If they already hate CO from prior misconceptions they'll probably call me a blind Cryptic fanboy.

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It's nice that gold members have the option of creating Archetype characters, but if they are both power-choice-restricted and gimped due to fewer powers and advantages, I think that almost no-one will choose this option. The only reason to do so would be to join Archetype-only PvP, so I see this as driving a further wedge between PvP and PvE players and builds (leveling your Archetype-only PvP toon would require you to run around as a gimped PvE toon). I recommend increasing Archetypes to the normal 14 powers somehow to make this option more palatable to Gold members and prevent the perception among Silvers that they are woefully underpowered compared to freeform characters.

-- 77IM

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I like what I've read so far. I think it's spot on. I don't see an issue with them having less powers as for most builds those last few powers are mostly just filler anyway. Tho I wouldn't be against Nike's suggestion of going from 11 to 12 and letting them pick a single power at 40. Sounds like a reasonable compromise.

I also don't have an issue with the singular role concept. If anything it will allow the archetypes to focus on one thing and do it well. This is even more important if you have less powers to choose from.

So a big thumbs up from me. Looking forward to seeing the actual builds.

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It's nice that gold members have the option of creating Archetype characters, but if they are both power-choice-restricted and gimped due to fewer powers and advantages, I think that almost no-one will choose this option.
-- 77IM

I agree.
We wouldn't want to play a prebuilt Archetype, if it looked gimped by being short on powers.

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I think it would be better if Archetypes had some powers they could choose to tailor the character to their concept. As I recall, they will be able to make a costume. A classic superhero example would be the Hulk vs the Juggernaut, both would be brutes but we can see their active defense and self heal power differ.

For example, let them pick 1 attack move, their active defense, self heal and hold breaker/temp energy form between a pre-determined pool. I would also make the last power a free pick in all the power available. This kind of move would really motivate a silver player to gold has I would have the option to use any power he would want instead of waiting at 40 and getting a single selected power.

I think 3 powers less is too high. Sure some builds can work well and are pretty rounded with 12 powers. However, I usually end up with 1 pick what I feel like power on my builds and selecting two other powers to drop would either cripple my combat ability or my defenses to the extend that this character would not be fun to play anymore.

Still I'll wait for next week report on what those archetype will be to pass further judgement on the F2P Champions.

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Oh, sup? Don't mind me just busy having multiple roles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powers_and_abilities_of_Superman

Superman is a Gold Member....

;)

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I agree.
We wouldn't want to play a prebuilt Archetype, if it looked gimped by being short on powers.

I'm not sure it's logical to assume that just because a build has less powers it's automatically "gimped", especially if you're sticking to a single role. I mean seriously, how many powers do you really need? EB, block, passive, active defense, heal, and a minimum of 3-4 attacks and you pretty much got it all covered for most builds. And that still leaves some slots left over for flavor.

Again, the idea is to make these builds solid and functional, not necessarily min/maxed. And I don't see why you shouldn't be able to accomplish that in 11 powers for all but a few very rare cases.

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I think all players should have access tot he balanced role. I could see ATs having access to the balanced role and the one that "fits" their AT...

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I think all players should have access tot he balanced role. I could see ATs having access to the balanced role and the one that "fits" their AT...

My guess is this will be how it works. Each archetype will have a specific role in mind and will be built for that role, but you'll still be able to choose a stance. Whether or not your choice of stance will be restricted is unknown. But as you say, if it is you should have access to at least two -- the one that's most appropriate for the AT's role along with balanced.

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I'm not sure it's logical to assume that just because a build has less powers it's automatically "gimped", especially if you're sticking to a single role. I mean seriously, how many powers do you really need? EB, block, passive, active defense, heal, and a minimum of 3-4 attacks and you pretty much got it all covered for most builds. And that still leaves some slots left over for flavor.

Again, the idea is to make these builds solid and functional, not necessarily min/maxed. And I don't see why you shouldn't be able to accomplish that in 11 powers for all but a few very rare cases.

Agreed.

For PvE: EB, Block, AoE, Passive, and maybe a secondary energy return.

People have leveled to 40 with just regen, EB, and their starting attack. In another game the loss of 3 out of 14 powers/skills might be a serious problem, but CO is very forgiving. Unless the devs set out to purposefully create gimped builds for the archetypes I dont see this as a problem for F2P characters.

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Superman is a Gold Member....

;)

I think you mean he is a lifetimer. :D

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I really don't have any problem with this; many if not most of the builds I've seen posted on the forums seem to have soome type of a "once you get these, pick whatever you want for the last # powers. A certain number of powers are needed to make you viable; the rest make you versitile. This model just takes away some versatility for free players.

I do agree with Nike about going with 12 though; it's a familiar number that people like seeing, which makes it more enticing to a customer... It's a psychological thing...

What I find interesting is they lowered the number of powers, but not Advantage Points... It's going to effectively give us more Advantage Points to spend... Fewer powers, but more R3 powers and more additional abilities...

I'm thinking it might be kinda fun to find new builds under this system...

:)

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I think you mean he is a lifetimer. :D

Doh! Of course!

I stand corrected, sir!

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As long as you're giving them the decent T3 powers for the builds at 14 or 17 instead of making them wait until 32 or 40, yeah.

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I said there but I'll repeat it:

Reducing characters to 1 role seems like a bad idea. Give maybe a few of the extra power slots as a free choice in the last few levels to let players maybe grab a 2nd passive to open up alternate roles for a character.

I tend to agree at least to a point.

While it is true that one doesn't need all 14 powers by any stretch; it probably won't sit well with F2P people that Gold members are at an automatic constant advantage (by way of versatility). Would it not be better to have those extra slots instead be "Elective" power choices?

Maybe still reduce the number of powers total, but allow 12 or 13? With the last 1 or 2 being selectable?

I guess the main concern I have is people feeling ripped off if they go the Archetype route. While it's good to have incentive to go Gold; one should still feel like it's reasonable to play on the free side, otherwise you'll get customers leaving instead of subscribing, I think. It's a tough balance to make of course, but I really do think this particular bit should be rethought.

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How many of these archetypes can be used to solo? Kind of defeats the purpose of being a "champion" if you select an archetype that cannot be self sufficient throughout the course of the game. Otherwise, looking forward to see how this pans out in the end.

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Very interesting.

Can't wait to test. I can imagine the archetype play being quite interesting.

11 powers definitely seems like enough for most any build imo. Basically just enough powers to get a T4 in any given framework.

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Interesting stuff.

I feel that it's very important for archetypes to feel like a good idea to some players rather than merely being a limited form of the game. As it stands, I can't imagine any subscribers ever choosing to use archetypes for more than just a test character to see what it's like. Certainly, there isn't a huge power difference, but the numbers in the chart say that there is, and so the feeling the players will have is going to be that archetypes suck. Now, of course you need to have incentive for free players to subscribe, or at least buy Cryptic points, but I think it's equally important that free players feel like they're not the red headed step children of CO as well.

Right now, archetypes have the following issues:

*Less (almost no) customization
*Less powers
*Slower progression

So, I really can't imagine why anyone with an option would choose an archetype, and I can't imagine that free players would feel content with one either. Now that's not 100% bad, of course. You want free players to choose to subscribe eventually, but it is, I think, critical to give them a good game. And really, I think archetypes should be a nice option for subscribers too, rather than just a gimped version of a normal character.

There is another game out there that went free to play and became massively successful. I won't name names, but its acronym is DDO. Yeah. Anywho, I think they had two major factors in their success. The first is that you can truly do everything for free. You can earn Turbine Points by playing the game. Yes, it's horridly grindy if you want to get a whole lot of points, but the option is there. The second factor is that free players are not limited in any way shape and form as far as power level goes. They may not have access to every race or class, but in the things they do have access to, they're just as good as anyone else. I suppose there is also a third factor here, and it's a big one: the item store gives you nothing that makes you "better" than those who don't use it. There are many things you can buy that help you out and make things easier or faster or whatnot, but nothing that gives you more raw ability that you could not get in game. I subbed to DDO for several months this year, and I'll likely do so again.

Why did I sub to a free game? Well, I think that's the real question. I subbed for two reasons. The first is that I wanted to play with no restrictions so that I could determine which things I'd want to buy as a free player once the sub ended. Secondly, and the main reason, they were giving extra turbine points to subscribers over the summer. In fact, that's a HUGE thing. Subscribers get points as a reward for subscribing. It's like a veteran reward that you can choose rather than being given "object x" after a year...when you don't want it. The way I saw it, I could buy some points and be done, or I could subscribe, get the points that way, and have unrestricted access.

Anyway, I mention all that because I think CO is a great game that just has to be experienced by more people. I think the free model can really work, and I sure hope it does. But it has to be done right or folks will just view it as an unwelcome marketing gimmick. I think DDO succeeded because the free version is truly a complete and free game. Anything less will result in a lesser level of success. The archetypes seem interesting, but they also seem like a free to play roadblock and nothing more. Conceptually, they're very cool. Mechanically, they're a watered down, stagnant version of "real" characters. Now this might be just my view, but I suspect many free players might feel the same.

So, in summary, I like the idea, but I worry that the execution will serve more to alienate free players rather than encourage them to play more, and I see no value in them for subscribers at all. Hope the feedback helps. I'm very excited about the free to play shift, and I'm really hoping it gives CO the success it deserves.

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The more I read of the F2P plan, the less I think it will be successful. Why?

For thge F2P Silver Players:

- Making anything they purchase unlock the item for their entire account (this will be a first among F2P as most things are per character.) I honestly do not see a lot of potential for revenue generation.

- $5 per AP (and again unlockable across all characters on an account). With 2 APs now, and 3 at F2P launch; with the schedule being one every 3-4 month (per the 10 Ton Hammer interview)...

Please tell me: Do the Devs and upper management believe thatr 'free-form' character creation and a few extra costume options will really be enough enticement for people to sub for $15.00 a month; when at F2P launch; for $15.00; you get entire access to the game - with the only limitation of 11 powers and picking a pre-determined Archetype?

I think someone should REALLY take a HARD look at this F2P plane, because IMO - you're giving the majority of stuff cheap; and I doubt you see 12X Silver players buing up the APs (which would be equivilent to 1X Gold player subbing for a year.)

I trealize you guys are working hard to keep the servers up and the game viable; and I ONLY bring the above up BECAUSE for all the time involved re-coding and testing; I don't think your plan will do what the suits/investors expect in terms of revenue. Yes, the servers WILL have more people - BUT I don't think they'll be using the cash shop all that much and you'll probably see more spammers advertising the OTHER two MMOs tht are the competition (CoX and DCUO) up until they get the accounts banned; and it won't give a good impresiion to anyone giving CO a shot under the F2P change.

If you're going to go F2P; and WANT o generate revenue - items and APs, etc, should be purchased per character; or I think all you will net is more server support cost with little new (or sustained) revenue generation. A successful F2P model doesn't give ANYTHING in the store away cheap.

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The more I read of the F2P plan, the less I think it will be successful. Why?

For thge F2P Silver Players:

- Making anything they purchase unlock the item for their entire account (this will be a first among F2P as most things are per character.) I honestly do not see a lot of potential for revenue generation.

- $5 per AP (and again unlockable across all characters on an account). With 2 APs now, and 3 at F2P launch; with the schedule being one every 3-4 month (per the 10 Ton Hammer interview)...

Please tell me: Do the Devs and upper management believe thatr 'free-form' character creation and a few extra costume options will really be enough enticement for people to sub for $15.00 a month; when at F2P launch; for $15.00; you get entire access to the game - with the only limitation of 11 powers and picking a pre-determined Archetype?

I think someone should REALLY take a HARD look at this F2P plane, because IMO - you're giving the majority of stuff cheap; and I doubt you see 12X Silver players buing up the APs (which would be equivilent to 1X Gold player subbing for a year.)

I trealize you guys are working hard to keep the servers up and the game viable; and I ONLY bring the above up BECAUSE for all the time involved re-coding and testing; I don't think your plan will do what the suits/investors expect in terms of revenue. Yes, the servers WILL have more people - BUT I don't think they'll be using the cash shop all that much and you'll probably see more spammers advertising the OTHER two MMOs tht are the competition (CoX and DCUO) up until they get the accounts banned; and it won't give a good impresiion to anyone giving CO a shot under the F2P change.

If you're going to go F2P; and WANT o generate revenue - items and APs, etc, should be purchased per character; or I think all you will net is more server support cost with little new (or sustained) revenue generation. A successful F2P model doesn't give ANYTHING in the store away cheap.


I think this is a bit of digression of the thread topic.

Digression starts .................................................. ......

I guess to put it in context for those who has not read the interviews, the current plan for adventure packs looks like it is going to be selling for $5 account wide. I think content stuff should on character basis. For silvers who play one character makes no differences and for altholics they are (imho) the first one who should want to switch to subscription plan. tbh, the AP cannot be sold too expensive because they are not so lengthy in content.

The main incentive for subscribers are the custom archetypes, which are a lot of more flexible and arguable more powerful than silver and gold archetypes.

Digression ends .................................................. ..........


I agree with Nike about the 12 powers (kind of retraction on my former opinion of having 14 but with redundant powers) which sounds better as a number. However, I would like to propose a twist with the 12th power. I think it would be pretty interesting make it 11 power base and make the 12th power unlockable through a perk that can be obtain by running the basic lairs (the ones prior Viper Nest if the power is unlockable at 38 or include Viper Nest if the power will be given at 40).

My reasoning behind it is that they will give silver archetypes something to strive and it will foster teaming in leveling lairs (btw, for custom archetypes some other benefit could do the same trick but it is not the topic on this thread). The 12th power should be custom style, i.e. that it could be anything among the frameworks( except tier4 is the conditions are not met).


Something I am wondering is about the difference between silver and gold archetypes. Gold archetypes will be crucial for the f2p performance since they will be the middle ground between plain silver and custom archetypes. Hopefully, we should see more info soon enough.

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14................. B............................+1
oops! :eek:

Block Enhancer?

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I understand that there is an argument for making silver membership a path to gold to get more subs. Something we are all over looking is that silver has to be a viable method of play in it's own right. Players beget more players and it makes no difference if they are silver or gold when prospective players ask "Whats the population like?"

Out of that pool of silvers there will be many who decide to go gold without making silver unduly punitive. We need to say "We would like you to become a gold, but if not, hang out here here as long as you like. While your at it take a look at the C-store and see if anything catches your eye. Did I mention that it's on sale?"

There are three objectives here.

One is to increase the population: F2P option will do that.

The second is to increase Gold subs: Again I think F2P will do that by virtue of customization and playing along side gold members and feeling like a welcome part of the community.

The third is to create more revenue streams: F2P with micro transactions will only work as a profitable stream if there is a steady pool of silver are content to pay MT for things without feeling like they are being forced. If Silver players feel that the slide to Gold is too slippery they won't just abandon the slide, they will leave the playground.

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I suspect that subscribers who are considering going silver will not like the limitations, but new players will not mind. I suspect the whole point of the restricted power selection and fewer powers is to encourage those who do feel restricted to go Gold. The balancing act between making Silver attractive to new players and yet keep Gold subscribers happy is a fine one and so far I think Cryptic have got it right. They also want to minimize the number of subscribers who go FTP as well, whilst not losing subscribers altogether because the Silver account is too restricted.

A lot will depend on how well the Archetypes are done. If they had any sense they would let the Build Forum regulars do them as they seem to know more about powersets than Cryptic do :p

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11 powers definitely seems like enough for most any build imo. Basically just enough powers to get a T4 in any given framework.

I'd bet cashey-money that no base archetype will include a t4 power :).

First off they'd have to design one or more archetypes to take all 10 powers in a single category prior to that to qualify. Then they'd have to assume the user bought/completed Vibora bay, OR waive that requirment - which reduces the incentive to buy the pack. And then they'd have to take a gun and shoot themselves in the foot for offering the capstone of cusotmization without paying for the customization.

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What is the B at level 14? Is that a typo, a block, or is that a power that can be selected? (I assume it is not one that can be selecte since it is not +1.)

I said there but I'll repeat it:

Reducing characters to 1 role seems like a bad idea. Give maybe a few of the extra power slots as a free choice in the last few levels to let players maybe grab a 2nd passive to open up alternate roles for a character.

As a gold/life member you can build the AT with the +3 powers and +1 advantage. Do I think it would be nice to have a +1 at 35 so you can select a second passive, or high end DPS, yeah. But I'm silver, and the gold/silver AT is based upon Nighthawk, The All-American, Dwarfstar, and so on. In other words, the flexibility is very limited.

Reducing characters to one role has worked wonders in many other MMO's which helps the team system as certain roles need to be filled. E.g., I do Poe-wnd with a tanked based AT I will need help with DPS, and visa versa. It can be a win win situation. I also hopes this may be motivational for Cryptic to start building more instant missions for all levels in all zones that are 1-5 players with scalable XP. (Would really prefer 1-8 ;) )

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White text on white background hard to read.

Just sayin.

Just to clarify, on the iPad the white city graphic appears _inside_ the text box, not outside. The result is white text on a white background at the top of the text box.

On the Mac the city graphic appears outside the text box.

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I'd bet cashey-money that no base archetype will include a t4 power :).

First off they'd have to design one or more archetypes to take all 10 powers in a single category prior to that to qualify. Then they'd have to assume the user bought/completed Vibora bay, OR waive that requirment - which reduces the incentive to buy the pack. And then they'd have to take a gun and shoot themselves in the foot for offering the capstone of cusotmization without paying for the customization.

I have to agree with you. It's highly unlikely they will have T4 powers. But I'm pretty sure Vibora Bay is available to Silver members and doesn't need to be unlocked. I think it's only the Adventure Packs that are restricted.

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In a game that's so much about customisation, the complete inability to choose your own powers is already a very, very harsh penalty for Silver players. Punishing them further with fewer powers on top of that seems a bit cruel.

I hope these Archetype builds are going to be really, really good builds. I hope that those in charge of making them pay serious attention to sensible SS/passive choice and inter-framework synergies.

Because I damn well do not want to see an Ice Archetype with SS Dex/Rec using Ice Form which scales with End. I don't want to see a Force Archetype with SS End/Ego using Personal Fail Field. I don't want to see a Telepathy Archetype filled with all its fail T1 abilities and SS Ego for no reason at all. In fact I don't want to see any SS Ego that isn't paired with SS Dex, because that's just stupid.

Please, Cryptic, if there isn't a complete Framework overhaul in the works, just be extra sure not to make the Archetype builds suck, like some of the current Frameworks do.

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I must say, putting tier 4 powers on archetypes will be rather challenging, since it means zero non-set powers. I can see doing it for Tech and Supernatural, but Energy has no healing powers, Martial Arts has no laser knight (and no, elusive monk is not a substitute), Might has marginal heals, no active defenses, and no laser knight, Ego (TK) has no forms or lunges, though it might work for a telepath.

I've seen nothing (so far) to indicate that Archetypes would be built using only one framework; also, since the powers are preassigned, nothing says they have to use the gating requirements free-form uses, since the archetype itself is already going to be set in stone.

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Btw, withholding my comments on the archetype progression until I see the builds for the archetypes.

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In a game that's so much about customisation, the complete inability to choose your own powers is already a very, very harsh penalty for Silver players. Punishing them further with fewer powers on top of that seems a bit cruel.

I hope these Archetype builds are going to be really, really good builds. I hope that those in charge of making them pay serious attention to sensible SS/passive choice and inter-framework synergies.

Because I damn well do not want to see an Ice Archetype with SS Dex/Rec using Ice Form which scales with End. I don't want to see a Force Archetype with SS End/Ego using Personal Fail Field. I don't want to see a Telepathy Archetype filled with all its fail T1 abilities and SS Ego for no reason at all. In fact I don't want to see any SS Ego that isn't paired with SS Dex, because that's just stupid.

Please, Cryptic, if there isn't a complete Framework overhaul in the works, just be extra sure not to make the Archetype builds suck, like some of the current Frameworks do.

I think the point is to get people to rely on each other to complete content. Get the players to form social bonds and its not as easy to leave the game. I still sub to EQ2 just to hang with friends from school even though I really don't play outside of that. My guild from way back in EQ1 beta still lurks around MMO's. We kinda drift together every once in a while. That's the goal of the archetypes, I think.

One huge bonus with Archetypes is...the player no longer has to figure out stats! They actually came up with a more confusing stat system than SWG. Never thought I would see that.

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I think the point is to get people to rely on each other to complete content.

Trying to force people to team by giving them gimped toons will do little to encourage people to play the game, let alone buy a subscription. Also little point to pvp-ing with gimped toons, or adding gimped archetype options to nemesis creator.

To put it another way, CO already has enough sub-par stuff in it. Adding more will do little to help the game. They need to make archetypes self-sufficient and fun.

To put it a 3rd way, you and your friends won't be hanging out in CO just because they added gimped toons.

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Interesting. My snap observation is that archetypes would benefit from having their powers come slightly faster in the second half to bring the total number of power up to 12 and for the final power at level 40 to be their one singular opportunity to choose a power.

Two reasons for this - having a total of 12 powers sounds more structured and balanced to the casual observer that 11 (its an odd/even thing in the way the human brain is wired) and any player that has the fortitude to reach level 40 with one of these things has shown enough commitment to the game that giving them a little taste of the power of free-form selection seems like a good tool to tip them over to Gold status. You don't really have the depth of content to sell them on the idea there is another leveling path out there, so show them first hand how giddy a moment it is to open up the powerhouse menus and go prowling for that perfect capstone.

This * 100. But to go along with this, I would make a stipulation about roles. Let's assume that all archetypes start by default in a specialized role (Avenger, Sentinel, Protector, Brawler), and that none of them have access to the Guardian role. Now, at level 40 when they obtain their 12th power choice, which is a free-form choice, they also gain access to the Guardian role. This is in case they choose a second passive, it guarantees that they will be able to at least use it in Guardian stance. A Brick-Protector archetype could choose Unstoppable, but would be limited to using it in Guardian instead of Brawler. A Pestilence-Avenger archetype could choose Regen, but not be able to use it in Protector. Stuff like that.

Also, as a comment on the PVP situation, I like Isometry's idea of limiting acclaim to unrestricted PVP only, and adding better acclaim rewards. The way PVP is planned to go forward now with AO-only and Unrestricted...it will effectively kill Unrestricted altogether. There needs to be a honey pot of some type to draw people to Unrestricted.

And if you're worried about not getting acclaim for those costume pieces...well you can still come to unrestricted PVP and get acclaim, you just might gain it slower. But the same can be said about PVE. If you have a PVE build that is a weak farmer, it's going to take you a lot longer to get those costume drops/unlocks you want. If you come to PVP with a weak build, it will take you longer to get that acclaim.

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Trying to force people to team by giving them gimped toons will do little to encourage people to play the game, let alone buy a subscription. Also little point to pvp-ing with gimped toons, or adding gimped archetype options to nemesis creator.

To put it another way, CO already has enough sub-par stuff in it. Adding more will do little to help the game. They need to make archetypes self-sufficient and fun.

Singular role != gimped. And I really wish people would stop already with this.

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Assuming the archetypes are viable, self sufficient builds with eleven powers, I wouldn't add a 12th. Silver builds should be just enough for players to play the game without felling gimped, nothing more.

I would also not penalize archetype pvp. Cryptic will have a way to base pvp on skill now. Penalize it and no one will play it.

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Singular role != gimped. And I really wish people would stop already with this.

You are right, CF. But in a way, so is MJ. Classes work in other games because the content is built around them. Having pre-built archetypes will only shine a giant spotlight on lack of features in this game cause you're taking away the one thing you could always boast about.

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Singular role != gimped. And I really wish people would stop already with this.

I made no comment on roles, or any other comments based on the specifics of a build, as I don't know what the builds will actually be yet.

Instead, I pointed out that making archetypes so weak as to require teaming would be counter-productive for a number of reasons.

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I would also not penalize archetype pvp. Cryptic will have a way to base pvp on skill now. Penalize it and no one will play it.

It's not necessarily a penalty on archetype PVP, it's a benefit for playing unrestricted. But that's really just relative semantics. Either way, unrestricted PVP needs to have more benefits than archetype PVP.

The current PVP population is already very very low. The issue us PVPers have is that when archetype PVP is added, a large number of Silver players will start PVPing in those arenas. All of us Gold members in the unrestricted arenas will see 20x more players in archetype arenas and say "I want to actually play against other people instead of standing around for 5 minutes waiting for a second player", so we'll roll archetype toons. That kills our population even further until effectively no one is left. Once that happens, there is no return to unrestricted PVP, as there will never be a large enough migration of archetype-to-unrestricted players to reach critical mass.

That's our fear, and we are trying to prevent it. 1/2 of the fun in PVP (for me at least) is the ability to create unique builds and play them out. By taking that away with the situation I describe above, it frustrates me that Cryptic may kill the best part of the game for me. That's why there needs to be some lure to bring Silver players to unrestricted PVP, right from the start. Whether it's acclaim or some other mechanic, it needs to be there at release, or it may kill unrestricted PVP before it has a chance.

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Instead, I pointed out that making archetypes so weak as to require teaming would be counter-productive for a number of reasons.

Well, since that's not what they're doing then I guess you don't have anything to worry about :rolleyes:

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It's not necessarily a penalty on archetype PVP, it's a benefit for playing unrestricted. But that's really just relative semantics. Either way, unrestricted PVP needs to have more benefits than archetype PVP.

The current PVP population is already very very low. The issue us PVPers have is that when archetype PVP is added, a large number of Silver players will start PVPing in those arenas. All of us Gold members in the unrestricted arenas will see 20x more players in archetype arenas and say "I want to actually play against other people instead of standing around for 5 minutes waiting for a second player", so we'll roll archetype toons. That kills our population even further until effectively no one is left. Once that happens, there is no return to unrestricted PVP, as there will never be a large enough migration of archetype-to-unrestricted players to reach critical mass.

That's our fear, and we are trying to prevent it. 1/2 of the fun in PVP (for me at least) is the ability to create unique builds and play them out. By taking that away with the situation I describe above, it frustrates me that Cryptic may kill the best part of the game for me. That's why there needs to be some lure to bring Silver players to unrestricted PVP, right from the start. Whether it's acclaim or some other mechanic, it needs to be there at release, or it may kill unrestricted PVP before it has a chance.
I think your concern is valid. But I think the proposed solution is counter-productive as it has the potential to kill archetype PvP before it even starts.

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One possibility regarding free-form PvP would be to do nothing. Just wait and see if concerns regarding a drop in population prove to be true. If they do, the Devs could do something like making the rewards for free-form PvP be equal to 1.5 times the rewards for archetype PvP.

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It's not necessarily a penalty on archetype PVP, it's a benefit for playing unrestricted. But that's really just relative semantics. Either way, unrestricted PVP needs to have more benefits than archetype PVP.

The current PVP population is already very very low. The issue us PVPers have is that when archetype PVP is added, a large number of Silver players will start PVPing in those arenas. All of us Gold members in the unrestricted arenas will see 20x more players in archetype arenas and say "I want to actually play against other people instead of standing around for 5 minutes waiting for a second player", so we'll roll archetype toons. That kills our population even further until effectively no one is left. Once that happens, there is no return to unrestricted PVP, as there will never be a large enough migration of archetype-to-unrestricted players to reach critical mass.

That's our fear, and we are trying to prevent it. 1/2 of the fun in PVP (for me at least) is the ability to create unique builds and play them out. By taking that away with the situation I describe above, it frustrates me that Cryptic may kill the best part of the game for me. That's why there needs to be some lure to bring Silver players to unrestricted PVP, right from the start. Whether it's acclaim or some other mechanic, it needs to be there at release, or it may kill unrestricted PVP before it has a chance.Better not start advocating for AO-PVP to not give Acclaim, or it becomes impossible for casual PVPers to earn those costume parts that can only be earned from PVP.

All my characters cannot PVP without major overhauls and are designed for PVE. Should people like me really be unable to unlock costume pieces? No, that would be unfair dude. For those who can't compete in the regular PVP, Archetype PVP would be the only way to earn some Acclaim in a more balanced environment.Just reposting my reply to isometry, which seems like he doesn't care to comment on. Seriously not everybody can make a competitive build. AT PVP is balanced and doesn't allow FOTM running around, which sounds like the perfect place for casual players who don't build for PVP, and specifically AVOID unrestricted PVP. Seriously if everybody can one shot me unless I make a clone build, why should I PVP in the current environment? Take away the Acclaim and it becomes impossible to earn Acclaim-based rewards for those who do not enjoy the current unrestricted setup.

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Just reposting my reply to isometry, which seems like he doesn't care to comment on. Seriously not everybody can make a competitive build. AT PVP is balanced and doesn't allow FOTM running around, which sounds like the perfect place for casual players who don't build for PVP, and specifically AVOID unrestricted PVP. Seriously if everybody can one shot me unless I make a clone build, why should I PVP in the current environment? Take away the Acclaim and it becomes impossible to earn Acclaim-based rewards for those who do not enjoy the current unrestricted setup.

It would appear that you have more information on the Archetypes than the rest of us. Exactly how is AT 7 balanced against AT 4 ?

Class based systems (The dev descriptions of AT's seem to indicate that they are conceptually similar to class design) are not inherently more balanced for PvP than our open power system. That does not mean that classes cant ever be balanced against eachother for PvP, but what seems far more likely is that one or two of the AT's will be superior to the others (by PvP standards at least) and so we will end up with even less variety in competitive builds than is now the case.

Edit: I think that AT pvp should grant acclaim, but that something should be put into place to incentivize unrestricted PvP.

Not to be mean but according to your own logic allowing AT pvp to gain acclaim will likely reduce the unrestricted population to the point that those who do not enjoy the idea of playing AT's will find it nearly impossible to accumulate acclaim.

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Just reposting my reply to isometry, which seems like he doesn't care to comment on. Seriously not everybody can make a competitive build. AT PVP is balanced and doesn't allow FOTM running around, which sounds like the perfect place for casual players who don't build for PVP, and specifically AVOID unrestricted PVP. Seriously if everybody can one shot me unless I make a clone build, why should I PVP in the current environment? Take away the Acclaim and it becomes impossible to earn Acclaim-based rewards for those who do not enjoy the current unrestricted setup.

None of those points solve the problems that Bearonthejob is pointing out in the post you quote. You are basically saying "I feel entitled to earn those costume parts, and I think unrestricted PVP is too competitive, and I think Archetype PvP will be more casual." Well, I doubt Archetype PvP will be casual, and it's because the weakness of the individual builds means that pre-made teams will utterly dominate. But even leaving that aside, should there be an easy risk free way to earn acclaim for players who feel entitled? Sure, that's zombie apocalypse.

So if it's just about you having a way to earn those wrestler costume pieces, check out (unrestricted) ZA on Live. It will surely farm acclaim faster than playing UTC in silver PvP, since that's just the way ZA is.

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It would appear that you have more information on the Archetypes than the rest of us. Exactly how is AT 7 balanced against AT 4 ?

Class based systems (The dev descriptions of AT's seem to indicate that they are conceptually similar to class design) are not inherently more balanced for PvP than our open power system. That does not mean that classes cant ever be balanced against eachother for PvP, but what seems far more likely is that one or two of the AT's will be superior to the others (by PvP standards at least) and so we will end up with even less variety in competitive builds than is now the case.

It shifts the onus from your build to your skill, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And I agree it also opens up PvP to casual players. Regular PvP is just too hardcore for most of us, especially when it comes to requiring very specific builds that are counter to concept, RP, and not necessarily effective in PvE.

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Offering rewards for unrestricted PvP is the best, and only IMO, way to actually make AO-PvP casual.

If you read Bron's post, it's not really "balance" that is the issue, it is the strong overly competitive players. Cryptic's idea is to take away these guys power, make them into weak archetypes. The reason that won't work is because these guys are overly competitive, so they will just form teams and roll over casual players just as before.

The only way to get the competitive players away from farming newbies is to give them something better to do, and that is how Cryptic dropped the ball with CO PvP.

Making a separate queue is a good idea, but one should have been "Competitive, Unrestricted, Teams Allowed and Big Rewards" and the other queue should be "Casual, Unrestricted, Teams not Allowed and Small Rewards."

It shifts the onus from your build to your skill, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And I agree it also opens up PvP to casual players. Regular PvP is just too hardcore for most of us, especially when it comes to requiring very specific builds that are counter to concept, RP, and not necessarily effective in PvE.

This point of view will be shown to be far off the mark, or rather you will see that AO-PvP will be just as hardcore with the direction Cryptic is headed.

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This point of view will be shown to be far off the mark, or rather you will see that AO-PvP will be just as hardcore with the direction Cryptic is headed.

It depends upon your definition of hardcore. The biggest problem I have with the current implementation of PvP is that it requires very specific builds to be competitive, and it comes at the expense of everything else. So for those that want to mostly PvE and just PvP occasionally, they are pretty much locked out. You either build a toon for PvE or PvP, but not both, with very rare exceptions.

When everyone's builds are the same the focus is then shifted towards player skill, not what powers you have. And since the builds can't be changed there is no need to worry about having a specific build just for PvP. So that entire barrier that currently exists in PvP is completely removed. And that's HUGE.

I think PvP based on skill is going to be much more rewarding than that based on builds. Sure, there will always be beginners, intermediates, and experts, but in removing the PvP-specific build requirement it makes it that much more accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise go anywhere near it.

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It depends upon your definition of hardcore. The biggest problem I have with the current implementation of PvP is that it requires very specific builds to be competitive, and it comes at the expense of everything else. So for those that want to mostly PvE and just PvP occasionally, they are pretty much locked out. You either build a toon for PvE or PvP, but not both, with very rare exceptions.

When everyone's builds are the same the focus is then shifted towards player skill, not what powers you have. And since the builds can't be changed there is no need to worry about having a specific build just for PvP. So that entire barrier that currently exists in PvP is completely removed. And that's HUGE.

I think PvP based on skill is going to be much more rewarding than that based on builds. Sure, there will always be beginners, intermediates, and experts, but in removing the PvP-specific build requirement it makes it that much more accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise go anywhere near it.
This statement is only half correct.

If you want to be more than casualy competitive in pvp you need (unless you play support) somekind of powerful single target damage, probably best if its burst damage (I mean that in a way that you deliver one off huge hits, still possible to spam this however :)).

As for everything else, that can come from anywhere. My main right now is a Dual Blades / AoRP / Seraphim as I prefer to play dual role characters. I die quite a lot to more focussed offense builds but the 45% defense to allies combined with MR and Empathic healing also makes my build good in drawn out pvp like stronghold.

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Lol yeah the competitve players will just farm the AO-Que and you're back to square 1.

Unless of course, the unrestricted que is actually popping so they wont have to farm it.

And people should stop spouting off on this "Archetypes will be balanced" BS.

Cryptic will either:

1) Not care enough about archtype balance to do anything
2) Balance things in a way that-
a: completely destroy's the functionality of a power
b: buffs something to godlike proportions which they will fail to change or acknowledge despite calls for balance by the community.

Both of these will happen only after an 8 month period in which the majority of people will get fed up and leave.

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It would appear that you have more information on the Archetypes than the rest of us. Exactly how is AT 7 balanced against AT 4 ?

Class based systems (The dev descriptions of AT's seem to indicate that they are conceptually similar to class design) are not inherently more balanced for PvP than our open power system. That does not mean that classes cant ever be balanced against eachother for PvP, but what seems far more likely is that one or two of the AT's will be superior to the others (by PvP standards at least) and so we will end up with even less variety in competitive builds than is now the case.

Edit: I think that AT pvp should grant acclaim, but that something should be put into place to incentivize unrestricted PvP.

Not to be mean but according to your own logic allowing AT pvp to gain acclaim will likely reduce the unrestricted population to the point that those who do not enjoy the idea of playing AT's will find it nearly impossible to accumulate acclaim.I don't think you understand what I meant by balanced. People running around with one-shot FC builds, upperclones, perma Enrage, 5k DPS that can floor anybody who is not superstatting Con. AT PVP would be more balanced in the sense that a completely unrestricted system is a join or die scenario. Not making sense to you, right?

Also I have no idea why the current PVP pool is declining, but it's probbaly something to do with how not every character can just jump in. It doesn't promote new blood, really. Keep reading the rest of the stuff and you'll see what I mean. ;)None of those points solve the problems that Bearonthejob is pointing out in the post you quote. You are basically saying "I feel entitled to earn those costume parts, and I think unrestricted PVP is too competitive, and I think Archetype PvP will be more casual." Well, I doubt Archetype PvP will be casual, and it's because the weakness of the individual builds means that pre-made teams will utterly dominate. But even leaving that aside, should there be an easy risk free way to earn acclaim for players who feel entitled? Sure, that's zombie apocalypse.

So if it's just about you having a way to earn those wrestler costume pieces, check out (unrestricted) ZA on Live. It will surely farm acclaim faster than playing UTC in silver PvP, since that's just the way ZA is.Look I'm not trying to solve the problem, and I realize it ia a problem. But PVP is a dog eat dog world. If you poll around, I'm sure you will see that while yes, more than half the players do PVP, very few are actually built for it. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would rather just avoid the whole thing because my characters are not tanky enough for it.

Well you're right about most of that quote, but not all of it. It's not that I feel entitled, but I feel like I can't compete unless I join the mainstream builds that dominate. I'd prefer to be able to jump into PVP with a premade build where everybody is also limited in what powers they use because in order to play in the unrestricted PVP I'd have to dedicate a character to leveling specifcally on PVP. You agree that anything that is not survivable cannot effectively PVP? There's a reason why the term "squishy" is tossed around. In PVE it means easily killed by bosses but can be avoided if you're smart, but in PVP it means everybody else will kill you easily and you're easy points.

What would you recommend here? Join or die? Think of it from my perspective for a second. I'm not a pro at mindgames and winning against real people. None of my characters can make it in unrestricted PVP because they're either not survivable enough for it (But quite survivable for PVE with things like a self heal or Pets). Unless I actually make a FOTM clone of something (Even this requires lots of research and learning on the go, so just having an uber build doesn't make you uber) that is known to work, I'll never be able to earn Acclaim at a reasonable pace.

Sure, ZA is for everybody more or less. But unrestricted PVP severely limits the kind of character that doesn't suck in it. Unless you can live long enough, you won't earn much Acclaim.

Now take AT PVP, and it's a whole different thing. Everybody who joins accepts that they cannot effectively make a build that will dominate often, because ATs are limited. With pre-chosen skills there cannot be much overpoweredness because everybody is in the same boat in terms of limitations. Sure some ATs would be more popular than others, but the fact that it allows a person who has no time to make a PVP-centric build is precisely why AT PVP is casual-friendly. Anybody with an AT character can join, and anybody with a ton of buff/debuff stacking, on next hit powers, or extreme tankyness to the point of taking 1s all the time will not be there. Nobody domintates and it's a contest of skill between premades.

If you remove the Acclaim reward from this, there's very little incentive to go.It depends upon your definition of hardcore. The biggest problem I have with the current implementation of PvP is that it requires very specific builds to be competitive, and it comes at the expense of everything else. So for those that want to mostly PvE and just PvP occasionally, they are pretty much locked out. You either build a toon for PvE or PvP, but not both, with very rare exceptions.

When everyone's builds are the same the focus is then shifted towards player skill, not what powers you have. And since the builds can't be changed there is no need to worry about having a specific build just for PvP. So that entire barrier that currently exists in PvP is completely removed. And that's HUGE.

I think PvP based on skill is going to be much more rewarding than that based on builds. Sure, there will always be beginners, intermediates, and experts, but in removing the PvP-specific build requirement it makes it that much more accessible to those who wouldn't otherwise go anywhere near it.Basically what he said. ;) Especially what is underlined.

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Now take AT PVP, and it's a whole different thing. Everybody who joins accepts that they cannot effectively make a build that will dominate often, because ATs are limited. With pre-chosen skills there cannot be much overpoweredness because everybody is in the same boat in terms of limitations. Sure some ATs would be more popular than others, but the fact that it allows a person who has no time to make a PVP-centric build is precisely why AT PVP is casual-friendly. Anybody with an AT character can join, and anybody with a ton of buff/debuff stacking, on next hit powers, or extreme tankyness to the point of taking 1s all the time will not be there. Nobody domintates.Basically what he said. ;) Especially what is underlined.

Now that makes some sense. It's not so much about balance, but it's just a shorter learning curve so it's more accessible. Since everyone is a clone, literally, of the same few archetypes, it will be easier to learn.

That could potentially be true, depending on who plays. It doesn't solve this problem:

Lol yeah the competitve players will just farm the AO-Que and you're back to square 1.

I would love to never have to touch AO-PvP, but without exclusive incentives unrestricted will fade away as bearonthejob describes. Since that is what will happen, I know all of these competitive players will just move to AO-PVP and farm it for the few months that it is active.

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Updated that previous post by the way.

But yea dude, I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist but there's just no way to solve it because by the nature of being unrestricted, either you're in the in crowd, or you're free points. A lot of people get turned away by this, which is why the crowd remains small and even dwindles.

People are gonna flock to the AT PVP because they know that they won't be domiinated all the time because every AT of the same type has the same skills. No variation and all clones, but at least it's better than being forced into a clone build just to compete and score points on those who aren't conforming. AT PVP makes everybody conform to the same limitations, as horrible as they are. :rolleyes:

I mean think about it. If I know I'm just free points, why should I get into it if I'm just gonna get tossed around like a ragdoll?

If you take away the Acclaim from AT PVP, there's no reward for skill at playing your clone different from other clones and it just becomes endless war when we could either be leveling or downing bosses. I can't earn Acclaim in unrestricted, and AT PVP gets it's Acclaim taken away. Why bother with either? People without PVP-centric builds just continue to shun it.

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It shifts the onus from your build to your skill, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. And I agree it also opens up PvP to casual players. Regular PvP is just too hardcore for most of us, especially when it comes to requiring very specific builds that are counter to concept, RP, and not necessarily effective in PvE.

Im afraid I have to disagree. If AT1 is superior to AT2 the situation is not significantly different than what we have now where build 1 is superior to build 2.

Ive never encountered a PvP build that wasnt very effective in PvE. The ability to deal lots of damage, survive lots of damage, self heal, etc all are aspects of many/most powerful PvE builds.

If an AT doesnt fit my concept then I am in no better situation than if a PvP build doesnt fit my concept. The difference is that there will likely be fewer competitive (pvp) AT's than there are current PvP builds.

Either you roleplay your character or you dont. Personal choice.

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Passive, block, click defense, self-heal, endbuilder, primary single target attack, primary aoe attack, hold breaker, CC ability. 9 powers. That leaves two powers for utility- group buffs, secondary damage, additional self-healing or defense, team heals...whatever. Ultimately, that's all you need to manage standard content on standard difficulty solo, and to perform passably in a group setting. Depending on how you advantage, you're also looking at a functional PvP build. It may or may not run at maximum potential, but a silver player with the current scheme isn't going to get maximum flexibility or potential.

I think we'll see some of the ATs riffing off current mob ability sets. If you look, villain groups like Dogz and Nephilim pull from multiple frameworks for their abilities in order to follow their concepts. So you might have a Werewolf at that uses regen and a mix of bestial and munitions or might or something; or an angel set with a mix of celestial, tk, and fire.

Having seen some of the random builds people throw together, I don't think the loss of three power picks is going to gimp anyone for PvE. And as far as PvP goes... I still feel that a lot of that is a matter of picking the right advantages for the powers you've got, and learning how to make the most of what you have. A PvP-viable build isn't the same as a cheezed out, min-maxed PvP build, but it'll get you by enough to have some fun.

And I forget who mentioned it first on the little tangent, but I think I'd also like to see some gold-exclusive PvP rewards as an incentive to keep our queues popping. The lack of cheez and the (hopeful) glut of silvers trying out PvP will have the restricted queues healthy and rolling. PvP's already stagnating- I'd hate to see free-form PvP die completely.

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I find it odd that the discussion turned to PvP. This game isn't the move pvp focused game.

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HI,
as long as we are chainging things around, let's please use this opportunity to fix a long standing gripe og mine: Movement!

As it currently stands you have ONE movement power for most of the game (35 vs 5) and only one speed (base) for 20 levels and faster (19 lvls) and only ONE level where you get to really go fast!

Since the point of the game is make people feel "Super" I would suggest the following movement progression as being a lot more player friendly without unbalancing anything as far as i can see:

Lvl 5: Movement power 1, Speed 0
Lvl 15: Speed 1
Lvl 20: Movement power 2 (For those many builds for which one travel power doesn't make sense)
Lvl 25: Speed 2 (Yeah, I actually get to invest in speed if I want and still have levels to play with it!)
Lvl 30: (gold only) Movement power 3 (Great reason to go gold!)
Lvl 35: (gold only) Speed 3! (Go gold! (assuming you want to spend the points that is!))

PLEASE LET'S MAKE MOVEMENT SO WE ARE NOT STUCK WITH ONE POWER AT ONE SPEED FOR 39 out of 40 levels!

All those who want move movement, PLEASE SPEAK UP and supoprt this as we know from the pet pass example that the DEVS ACTUALLY LISTEN if people ask for something!

NEED FOR SPEED!:cool:

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I find it odd that the discussion turned to PvP. This game isn't the move pvp focused game.

Yeah, but those of us that DO pvp are watching this whole F2P/Archetype thing pretty closely. PvP suffers some major balance problems, and is unpopular with a lot of players because of how easily the any power/any framework system can be used to produce super-high damage combos on robust/hard-to-kill builds. A good portion of the playerbase objects to PvP as-is because the cheesiest, most minmaxed builds completely throw the "concept" of the game out the window and just go for pure win. In other games it's less of a problem because there's more structure to how characters are built. There are more common threads from player A to player B to player C.

For some PvPers, the open-endedness and the amount of sandboxery is a major selling feature of CO's PvP. They like to minmax, and they like to play the numbers game behind the pretty pixels. Others just like the ability to take a concept and see how far they can stretch it to make it a powerhouse in the arena. That side of PvP stands to take a massive hit (functionally a deathblow) with the addition of restricted PvP. Restricted PvP will, at least theoretically, place players on a more even footing. All ATX players will have the same skills, with slight variations in advantages. To put it in other games' terms, all rogues will be rogues, with slightly different specs. That system is more familiar and more approachable to the average MMO player, and will likely see a LOT more people getting involved. The unrestricted, open-ended PvP arenas will take longer to pop than restricted. (Just a prediction. More silver players than gold, plus more casuals than "hardcores" etc.)

Those of us that really like the free-form PvP are afraid that, presented with this new opportunity, people will stop queueing for unrestricted entirely and it'll be even harder than it is now to get good level 40 team PvP going.

>.> That's why it keeps going back to PvP. Also, PvPers are the center of the universe because of the density of our egos, and the sooner you accept that, the happier you'll be with your life in CO. We only let people THINK it's a PvE game.

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>.> That's why it keeps going back to PvP. Also, PvPers are the center of the universe because of the density of our egos, and the sooner you accept that, the happier you'll be with your life in CO. We only let people THINK it's a PvE game.
Truer things were never said :D

Especially considering the % of people actively on the test server who pvp compared to pve ;)

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Truer things were never said :D

Especially considering the % of people actively on the test server who pvp compared to pve ;)

Mother of monkey poop flingers! Did Bones agree with me on something without two pages of argument first?

*marks the calendar*

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No variation and all clones, but at least it's better than being forced into a clone build just to compete and score points on those who aren't conforming.

Look, you keep putting down the unrestricted PvP. The closest you came to a neutral statement was to just talk about the learning curve, unrestricted = takes more time to learn, AO = takes less time to learn.

I get it, you want acclaim, you don't like the current PvP, and you hope to earn acclaim in the AO PvP (acclaim is pretty worthless, btw, unless they add more things to use it on). Well you will almost certainly get what you want, no acclaim for AO-PvP is my idea and I doubt Cryptic is thinking of doing something like that. But you aren't going to convince me that my idea is bad one by arguing that unrestricted PvP is too hard and that everyone should be entitled to earn acclaim. That doesn't solve the problem that my suggestion is intended to solve.

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Mother of monkey poop flingers! Did Bones agree with me on something without two pages of argument first?

*marks the calendar*
My memory must be evading me as I do not recall hving a long argument with you before, to the searchmobile! :D

I get it, you want acclaim, you don't like the current PvP, and you hope to earn acclaim in the AO PvP (acclaim is pretty worthless, btw, unless they add more things to use it on). Well you will almost certainly get what you want, no acclaim for AO-PvP is my idea and I doubt Cryptic is thinking of doing something like that. But you aren't going to convince me that my idea is bad one by arguing that unrestricted PvP is too hard and that everyone should be entitled to earn acclaim. That doesn't solve the problem that my suggestion is intended to solve.
Im in both camps here, whilst I really do like the idea of a more balanced in terms of not everyone having one power, I dont want unrestircted to die either as my main would then puff out of existence :(

Why not just make it so that you can earn double the amount of acclaim and xp in unresitricted than restricted (so restricted would become nows amount, and current pvp would be doubled in amount?)

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Look, you keep putting down the unrestricted PvP. The closest you came to a neutral statement was to just talk about the learning curve, unrestricted = takes more time to learn, AO = takes less time to learn.

I get it, you want acclaim, you don't like the current PvP, and you hope to earn acclaim in the AO PvP (acclaim is pretty worthless, btw, unless they add more things to use it on). Well you will almost certainly get what you want, no acclaim for AO-PvP is my idea and I doubt Cryptic is thinking of doing something like that. But you aren't going to convince me that my idea is bad one by arguing that unrestricted PvP is too hard and that everyone should be entitled to earn acclaim. That doesn't solve the problem that my suggestion is intended to solve.

*gives Iso a cookie* Eat that. You'll feel better.

Not knowing what the ATs look like yet, acclaim gear may actually prove to be of USE to them. If they're hybrided to the point of needing four or five stats balanced instead of the usual three, then it may finally make the PvP rewards worth something more than a couple costume unlocks. I don't think we should really lock them OUT of acclaim, or keep them from getting what's already there. They need to have SOME incentive to play PvP beyond "Hey look, a few of these guys are smarter than the AI!"

I'd like to see stuff ADDED into the mix for people that play unrestricted pvp. Yes, additional costume unlocks, and better/more streamlined gear. Or heck, acclaim-buyable UNITY merits, UNTIL tokens, and Nemesis tokens. Just like the silver players will need some incentive to PvP at all, gold players are going to need some incentive to dive into the more competitive, unrestricted PvP arenas. We've been crying out for a long time to get more, better PvP rewards. Now would be an ideal time to do that.

[Archived Post]

HI,
as long as we are chainging things around, let's please use this opportunity to fix a long standing gripe og mine: Movement!

As it currently stands you have ONE movement power for most of the game (35 vs 5) and only one speed (base) for 20 levels and faster (19 lvls) and only ONE level where you get to really go fast!

Since the point of the game is make people feel "Super" I would suggest the following movement progression as being a lot more player friendly without unbalancing anything as far as i can see:

Lvl 5: Movement power 1, Speed 0
Lvl 15: Speed 1
Lvl 20: Movement power 2 (For those many builds for which one travel power doesn't make sense)
Lvl 25: Speed 2 (Yeah, I actually get to invest in speed if I want and still have levels to play with it!)
Lvl 30: (gold only) Movement power 3 (Great reason to go gold!)
Lvl 35: (gold only) Speed 3! (Go gold! (assuming you want to spend the points that is!))

PLEASE LET'S MAKE MOVEMENT SO WE ARE NOT STUCK WITH ONE POWER AT ONE SPEED FOR 39 out of 40 levels!

All those who want move movement, PLEASE SPEAK UP and supoprt this as we know from the pet pass example that the DEVS ACTUALLY LISTEN if people ask for something!

NEED FOR SPEED!:cool:
/signed /signed /signed

'
cept I woul move travel power to level 1.

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/signed /signed /signed

'
cept I woul move travel power to level 1.

I would be happy if they just upped the base run speed. Bloody hell it's sooooo slllllooooooowwwww. Not all travel powers work well in instances and having to run thru at base speed is torturous.

[Archived Post]

I'd like to see stuff ADDED into the mix for people that play unrestricted pvp. Yes, additional costume unlocks, and better/more streamlined gear. Or heck, acclaim-buyable UNITY merits, UNTIL tokens, and Nemesis tokens. Just like the silver players will need some incentive to PvP at all, gold players are going to need some incentive to dive into the more competitive, unrestricted PvP arenas. We've been crying out for a long time to get more, better PvP rewards. Now would be an ideal time to do that.

I did say this too, in the beginning. Heck, Cryptic should have done some work on PvP rewards a long time ago, and doing it sometime instead of never would be great. Really my only point is that unrestricted PVP should have better rewards, for two big reasons:

1) We want the competitive players to stay out of AO-PvP if it really is aimed at casual players.

2) We want competition-oriented silver players to have an in-game reward for trying their hand at unrestricted PvP.

People are focusing on my comments like I think silver players should be punished and not earn rewards, really I am just saying their should be enough of a difference in the rewards to accomplish (1) and (2).

[Archived Post]

I would be happy if they just upped the base run speed. Bloody hell it's sooooo slllllooooooowwwww. Not all travel powers work well in instances and having to run thru at base speed is torturous.

Everything used to be faster. The servers didn't like that. They're good, old-fashioned servers who don't believe on superspeeding on the first date.

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My memory must be evading me as I do not recall hving a long argument with you before, to the searchmobile! :D


I honeslty don't think we've ever directly argued (and I only just noticed your post, yay). It just seems like you like to argue. Everything. All the time. Even when you're less right than the other person. <3

I have to bust stones. It's a failing.

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When you look at the charts, they could use this for more incentive for others to buy a Gold AT, not just for cosmetic purposes, but for powers as well. They could add a +1, or P at 35 or 36 for a T4 power.

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I have never played enough to be able to comment on 14 powers vs 11 powers, but this is my take on this.

While 11 appears to be the "useful limit" to archetypal powers, while 14 brings in the added element of versatility to a free form character.

The way I see this is keep the 11 vs 14 split, BUT...

Since an Archetype is, by definition, the ultimate representative of a given role, give the Archetype an added bonus that the Free Form does not have.

So for example, a "H*lk Archetype" should be a bit more powerful (strenght, endurance, damage) than a "Free Form" strongman. However, the Free Form hero, although a bit less strong than the Archetype, has 3 powers worth more versatility.

In theory, the Archetypes should be pretty well made heroes. They will be designed by the team who know the insides and outs of the skill set and can take advantage of the synergies that are coded into the powers.

In fact, I can see many people who go Free Form, actually choosing Archetype builds and then taking advantage of the extra 3 powers in the overall build to differentiate the character from the Archetypes.

Cheers!
Archetypal_Canuck :)

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Check it out:

Sell the remaining 3 power points in the C Store! Badabing badaboom.

[Archived Post]

Check it out:

Sell the remaining 3 power points in the C Store! Badabing badaboom.


I like this.

There is still incentive to subscribe (full customization) but this option provides those not inclined to sub the opportunity to make a one time purchase that improves tbeir character.

Canuck,

The only problem I see with your idea is that making a free to play character superior in any way to what people get for paying might be a disincentive to subscribe.

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I honeslty don't think we've ever directly argued (and I only just noticed your post, yay). It just seems like you like to argue. Everything. All the time. Even when you're less right than the other person. <3

I have to bust stones. It's a failing.
Its probably because I mostly post when I think someone or something is wrong, rather than just posting all over the place randomly :D

Regardless, this thread is wrong, NERF

[Archived Post]

I did say this too, in the beginning. Heck, Cryptic should have done some work on PvP rewards a long time ago, and doing it sometime instead of never would be great. Really my only point is that unrestricted PVP should have better rewards, for two big reasons:

1) We want the competitive players to stay out of AO-PvP if it really is aimed at casual players.

2) We want competition-oriented silver players to have an in-game reward for trying their hand at unrestricted PvP.

People are focusing on my comments like I think silver players should be punished and not earn rewards, really I am just saying their should be enough of a difference in the rewards to accomplish (1) and (2).

I wouldn't blame the devs if they waited to see if the pvp grew beyond 20 people before spending time and money on it.

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I wouldn't blame the devs if they waited to see if the pvp grew beyond 20 people before spending time and money on it.
^^
this vjvvvvgjgv

[Archived Post]

Look, you keep putting down the unrestricted PvP. The closest you came to a neutral statement was to just talk about the learning curve, unrestricted = takes more time to learn, AO = takes less time to learn.

I get it, you want acclaim, you don't like the current PvP, and you hope to earn acclaim in the AO PvP (acclaim is pretty worthless, btw, unless they add more things to use it on). Well you will almost certainly get what you want, no acclaim for AO-PvP is my idea and I doubt Cryptic is thinking of doing something like that. But you aren't going to convince me that my idea is bad one by arguing that unrestricted PvP is too hard and that everyone should be entitled to earn acclaim. That doesn't solve the problem that my suggestion is intended to solve.Well first of all I'm not really putting it down dude. Captain Fabulous said it best. The current situation restricts the kind of characters that wouldnt be cannon fodder, basically. That's my only complaint about unrestricted PVP. You need to build for it or not join. I don't see where I'm putting it down, man. And if you're taking it that way for some reason that I missed, I'm sorry.

Again it's not that I outright don't like the current PVP, but that every one of my character concepts that I have ever thought of would absolutely stink at it. I don't have the mindset for it, man. I build for PVE, then think about PVP, and so far I've concluded that every build I could come up with would stink at PVP. That doesn't mean I don't like it. I just can't compete with you guys who have characters who are designed for it. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this situation, just one of the few speaking up about it. ;)

Now if we take AO PVP, everybody has to conform to an AT. Are they balanced? Probably not, since they're premade builds and Cryptic will probably make them more PVE-centric. Am I the only one who's using a "gimped" build in AO PVP? No, because it only allows ATs. So in my personal case, if I jump into PVP on my main, I'll get slaughtered. If I jump into AO PVP using "The Healer" AT (Assumin git exists), I'm not the only one who has a build that could quite possibly suck for PVP.

Think of it another way. Take your build and assume it's an AT. If I use your build, I can compete. If I don't, I can't because everybody is better than me. In normal PVP only those using the min/maxed builds can be successful, and only min/maxed builds can dent each other. But those who aren't playing competitively get pwned. In AO PVP, since nobody is allowed to mix together powers for an uber build, there's no such thing as "build for PVP" because you are using an AT and so is everybody else.

So if you actually read all that, we can con conclude that we understand each other on why AO PVP will draw those who can't normally compete in PVP.

Moving on.

Then what will convince you? Surely you know that not everybody goes to the queue for the basic reason of just wanting to fight against real people? You said it yourself. Acclaim is generally worthless. We all know that, as once you get what you want you just go PVP for the PVP and not for the Acclaim. For those of us who cannot compete in normal PVP and are just in it until they unlock Perks and/or enough Acclaim, AO is the only way besides ZA (Which you know has been getting filled by that one SG that needs to get banned from the game).

We can't change the fact that the cherry picked characters do the best PVP, and as people realize this, less join in. So the problem remains and even escalates. Your idea basically makes AO PVP worth nothing, so even those who are just in it for the "achievements" are forced to go back to the regular mode. I ask you, is this fair? Removing the Acclaim from AO PVP would mean those that shun because they can't compete it willl continue to shun it. If the choice is destroy my concept for Acclaim or not queue, I'd rather just not queue and makea PVP only character to join in the FOTM that goes on. But of course that's not high on my priority list, so I just put it off.

Removing Acclaim from AO PVP is not a solution to the lack of people, dude. Those that stay away will continue to do so, and those who join will continue to join. What they should do is further incentivise normal PVP beyond just Acclaim, not penalize AO PVP. For the Silvers, that's all they have access to and is definitely unfair to remove the Acclaim.

Even if you still dissagree after all that, I suppose I'll just be thankful that Cryptic isn't removing Acclaim from AO PVP as per your idea, and let's leave it at that and continue with business as usual I guess?

[Archived Post]

I'd actually be in favor of delaying Silver access to travel powers to a later level, and here's why.

It will slow down their progression through a game that is currently thin on content. It's really Champion's biggest shortcoming right now, and this would be a cheep way to shore up that experience for Silver members. You don't want F2Per's blazing through what little content there is, because many of them will have no incentive to subscribe after "beating the game".

It will make the world feel larger to Silver players, at least initially. We're accustomed to getting our travel powers right away. That entitlement seems to improve the game for us, but it shrinks the five and a half zones into something that skilled players can manage too quickly. We are entitled to our travel powers early on, because we are paying customers. Silver members who are new to the game should not expect to have that sense of entitlement, nor should we expect them to have it.

That other superhero MMO makes paying customers wait until level 14 for their first travel power. If we make Silver members wait until level 14, we're still offering the better deal in that regard. :cool:

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Bron,

Im afraid that I disagree about the supposed advantages of AT pvp over unrestricted, but I agree completely that AT pvp should provide acclaim rewards.

Personally I think that keeping the PvP perks restricted to unrestricted play, and perhaps providing a some additional reward for unrestricted pvp to give it some appeal would be a good idea.

Attempting to convince someone whose primary enjoyment in an mmo is PvP to subscribe will be very difficult if he knows that he gains little to no benefit for his monthly fee.

[Archived Post]

double post, sorry.

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I'd actually be in favor of delaying Silver access to travel powers to a later level, and here's why.

It will slow down their progression through a game that is currently thin on content. It's really Champion's biggest shortcoming right now, and this would be a cheep way to shore up that experience for Silver members. You don't want F2Per's blazing through what little content there is, because many of them will have no incentive to subscribe after "beating the game".

It will make the world feel larger to Silver players, at least initially. We're accustomed to getting our travel powers right away. That entitlement seems to improve the game for us, but it shrinks the five and a half zones into something that skilled players can manage too quickly. We are entitled to our travel powers early on, because we are paying customers. Silver members who are new to the game should not expect to have that sense of entitlement, nor should we expect them to have it.

That other superhero MMO makes paying customers wait until level 14 for their first travel power. If we make Silver members wait until level 14, we're still offering the better deal in that regard. :cool:

Yeah, I remember running the Hollows with no travel power. It sucked. At least I had sprint, which is several times faster than the stock running animation that we have here. When they brought out radio missions the first thing new players do is get a jet pack or a jump pack at around level 7-8. limiting access to TP, without giving silver player an suitable intermediary like sprint from CoX, would cause more problems than it solves.

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Dissagree how Ashen? Please elaborate a bit more. Just saying you dissagree without saying how is not that good. Unless you really can't think of a reason, which I guess is still acceptable.

Keeping the Perks to unrestricted would be the same as removing the Acclaim from AO PVP. It not only forces Perk/costume hunters like myself into a situation where I gotta make a PVP-centric character or ruin an existing, but also makes it impossible to earn all the Perks for Silvers. Cryptic wants the game content to be as accessible for free players as for subs/lifers. If they make some Perks basically "gold only" that's just poor implementation and people who don't sub will continue to not sub and those who don't PVP will continue to not PVP. It's the same outcome as it is now. I can't get the Perks because I can't compete, so until I can get to making a PVP-centric character, I just don't join. The Silvers will definitely not sub just for Perks, so if you don't like my reason, at least consider the fact that it takes something away from the Silver players.

While we all agree that Acclaim is worthless after a certain point, penalizing AO PVP will still not make people who are into fighting human opponents any more likely to subscribe. Incentivise unresitrected PVP, but penalizing AO not only turns away potential subs but just makes existing players avoid unrestricted mode, still.

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Limiting access to TP, without giving silver player an suitable intermediary like sprint from CoX, would cause more problems than it solves.

They can use melee lunges to get around... if their archetype has one.

Or have an intermediary travel device available in the C-store for a small fee. $2-3.

EDIT: http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=118390

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Dissagree how? Please elaborate a bit more. Just saying you dissagree without saying how is not that good. Unless you really can't think of a reason, which I guess is still acceptable.

Keeping the Perks to unrestricted would be the same as removing the Acclaim from AO PVP. It not only forces Perk/costume hunters like myself into a situation where I gotta make a PVP-centric character or ruin an existing, but also makes it impossible to earn all the Perks for Silvers. Cryptic wants the game content to be as accessible for free players as for subs/lifers. If they make some Perks basically "gold only" that's just poor implementation and people who don't sub will continue to not sub and those who don't PVP will continue to not PVP. It's the same outcome as it is now. I can't get the Perks because I can't compete, so until I can get to making a PVP-centric character, I just don't join. The Silvers will definitely not sub just for Perks, so if you don't like my reason, at least consider the fact that it takes something away from the Silver players.

While we all agree that Acclaim is worthless after a certain point, penalizing AO PVP will still not make people who are into fighting human opponents any more likely to subscribe. Incentivise unresitrected PVP, but penalizing AO not only turns away potential subs but just makes existing players avoid unrestricted mode, still.

Sorry, the reasons for my disagreement had been previously stated in the thread so I didnt repeat them, but expecting someone to try keeping track of everything said by every poster was a foolish of me. My apologies.

1) I am firmly convinced that one or two of the AT's will be superior, probably greatly so, to the others. The lack of balance between powers of the same tier (among other things) makes this inevitable IMO. This will lead those inclined to be competitive in PvP to pick the 1-2 best (by PvP standards) AT's. This means that the casual player with a concept not based on one of those two AT's will be just as much a point on another player's scoreboard as is the case now.

Allowing Silver players access to perks that could formerly only be achieved by running the gauntlet of facing hardcore PvP builds lowers the value of those perks. The effort to get them goes down. IMO that is changing the play experience of those that have been paying all along, something that isnt supposed to happen from what Ive read.

I do feel I should make clear that I have none of the perks in question. I have a few BASH victories, but am not particularly far along the path to the belt. I certainly would have no interest in continuing to pursue it under a situation where I know that the, "trophy," was being handed out to those who hadnt faced the same challenges to get it as those who have won it in the past.

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Well I totally agree on the first part. that's kind of a given in a competitive environment. It's just that there should, in theory, be less power disparity between concept characters in unrestirected versus everybody else and concept characters in AT versus everybody else. There would still be power disparity, sure.

While all the rest is valid, they aren't exactly equal opportunity to everybody, so let's leave it at that ok? Cryptic wouldn't be inclined to further de-incentivize Silvers this way. I like to give them the benefit of the doubt I guess.

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They can use melee lunges to get around... if their archetype has one.

Or have an intermediary travel device available in the C-store for a small fee. $2-3.

EDIT: http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=118390

So aggro anything on the map just to get around? No.

They could sell travel devices I suppose. Folks have also suggested that CO sell power tinting, bank space, advantage retcons, power customization tokens, hourly/daily/monthly rate gold membership, new powersets, a tier 4 power and power points. That's a lot of shopping for a free player. i know everyone whats to tip the ramp toward gold but if we tip it to far, Cryptic's already stunning reputation will fall to calls of over-greediness. More so than it does already. we need to keep silver as a viable as possible. i feel the merits of gold will become easier to pay for if silver player feel they are not unduly forced.

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So, at the end of the 40-level growth, those that are F2P will still end up with the same amount of talents and advantage points right? But just less during level up (since they get 4 at level 40)?

As long as you don't gimp them too much, I'm for it - I guess player testing will give you results.

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So far I'm pretty satisfied with how the Silver side is shaping up. As for power choices.. my level 40 Shattershaft STILL hasn't picked a power since level 31 so I'm sitting on a bunch of unused powers.

But this also allows for is to really dedicate your advantage points to existing powers, so it's not a total wash.

We all know by level 30 there's usually only about 3 powers we use every fight anyway.

I think one of the things I'm looking forward to as a veteran player is creating an Archtype build for my own enjoyment, be it PVE or just PVP without the headaches.

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Wow, the Archetypes are really hobbled, aren't they?

Even if a Gold member wants to play one, they'd do better to write down what powers the Archetype picks, then go Free-form and copy it. 3 extra powers, 1 extra Advantage point (3 extra, before level 40), Advantage points start accumulating 2 levels sooner, Talents accumulate faster ...

... Archetypes are looking pretty gimp, by comparison. (I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just observing that they do.)

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One little thing has been bothering me since I read the chart- golds get more power picks, but basically the same amount of advantage points. (I could be mis-counting, because I am dumb.) I know a lot of builds call for two or more 0 adv point utility clicks, but silvers will have the freedom to either pick up the less commonly-used advantages on those skills or grab more rank three abilites/rank their travel powers when a silver build might sacrifice those points for more ranking on their combat abilities.

On the one hand, yay a little bit of bonus for the silvers! (Though I don't think that ATs should really get boosts just because they're playing Punisher instead of Some Dude With A Big Gun.) On the other hand... I'm paying! I'm supposed to have the more flexible build and the greater freedom to abuse the game's mechanics! I mean, er... make the most of my build. Yeah, that. It'd be nice if the ratio of powers to advantage points was carried up from the ATs to custom characters.

And I'm not just saying that because I'm looking at my healer's build and wondering how I'm going to rank all the cool stuff.

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I think you mean he is a lifetimer. :D

There's really no difference. Gold for a month, or Gold forever; either way ... Gold member is Gold member.

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Wow, the Archetypes are really hobbled, aren't they?

Even if a Gold member wants to play one, they'd do better to write down what powers the Archetype picks, then go Free-form and copy it. 3 extra powers, 1 extra Advantage point (3 extra, before level 40), Advantage points start accumulating 2 levels sooner, Talents accumulate faster ...

... Archetypes are looking pretty gimp, by comparison. (I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just observing that they do.)I'd have to agree on the gimp, but it really ain't that bad. Since ATs get the same Adv point count as freeforms but 3 less powers, they actually have more Adv points to spend.

ATs get the same amount of Adv Pts as freeform. With only 11 powers to advantage, they have a high chance to not end up short on points like the freeform characters that do have a lot of powers. Advantaging amount 14 powers or Advantaging amount 11 powers? If some people end up with too many Adv points AND extra powers, imagine how easy it could be to Adv an AT. :eek:

Now about your "remaking an AT" thing? Well that's a good idea if you really like the concept of one of the ATs and want to remake it with 3 extra powers, but it will still not count as an AT in terms of the system, even if you stick to 11 powers. I think we kinda got most of the PVP concerns out of our system (Did we? ;)), but I'm sure if we try to take an freeform character into AT PVP with only 11 powers and all of them that appear in an AT, that it won't let you into AO PVP even if you're mimicing an AT. The cool thing about remaking an AT with 3 more powers is being able to add those three powers, but if they have other places where only ATs can partitcipate, a freeform made to have 11 powers from an existing AT will most likely still not be allowed in.

But otherwise yea, I also love the idea of remaking an AT concept and being able to add 3 powers to it. :cool:

Also I agree with the peple suggesting a Block Replacer power be free for ATs as a choice-based power slot. Blocks are fun and if I was playing an AT only it would be interesting to see what other people picked for their block to set themselves apart a little. But making it included in the 11 powers would either mean that most ATs wouldn't include a T4 power, or that they really only end up with 10 powers and a block.

[Archived Post]

They can use melee lunges to get around... if their archetype has one.

Or have an intermediary travel device available in the C-store for a small fee. $2-3.

EDIT: http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=118390

Getting a travel power at the same level as Gold members is something that needs to stay. If you really want to get people interested in a game, to use COs leveling curve, the first 15-20 levels should be reasonably easy, fast paced and most of all fun.

For example, I have a friend that is interested and has signed up for F2P. I want to make a new alt to level up with them and show them around. How much fun would it be if I'm using whichever travel power at level 5 and they have to wait till 10 or 15 or whatever it's set too? Having to buy some device just to be able to keep up would definitely turn folks off. I could turn off my travel power and just run around with them, but then it's making the game less fun for a paying member too.

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Gimp or no gimp, without knowing what powers they have chosen for them and how they play, we're all just ****ing in the wind. I really hope I get an invite. I'm more interested in how combat flows with them rather than the exact powers they contain. Proof of the pudding is in the eating. Some bits on the matrix sound good, others not so good. We'll see.

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I apologize if this has been brought up already, but has anyone considered whether the Archetypes would have access to powers they shouldn't have access to earlier in the build? Such as having a T3 attack earlier than 26 for a build that wouldn't have it unlocked for non-specialization?

Since the archetypes are a fixed system, this is something Cryptic could potentially get away with, although it would be one of those mythical "slaps in the face" to Gold members.

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i can only say "yay, more restrictions, more reasons not too play this game at all"
the more they limit silver, the less reason there is too even consider this game in the first place.

[Archived Post]

i can only say "yay, more restrictions, more reasons not too play this game at all"
the more they limit silver, the less reason there is too even consider this game in the first place.

Then leeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Silvers get 99.9% of the game for free. They simply have no foundation from which to complain. Want to experience the full game? Subscribe. Otherwise, you get what you pay for. End of story.

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i can only say "yay, more restrictions, more reasons not too play this game at all"
the more they limit silver, the less reason there is too even consider this game in the first place.

Oh noes. You hear that Cryptic? You better bow to his whims, or else the freebie won't play.

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I apologize if this has been brought up already, but has anyone considered whether the Archetypes would have access to powers they shouldn't have access to earlier in the build? Such as having a T3 attack earlier than 26 for a build that wouldn't have it unlocked for non-specialization?

Since the archetypes are a fixed system, this is something Cryptic could potentially get away with, although it would be one of those mythical "slaps in the face" to Gold members.

I actually thought about that myself. Though I don't think it'll give Gold members a slap in the face. I think it would naturally balance itself out. Maybe even give gold members a reason to consider archetypes over free-form.

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Then leeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Oh noes. You hear that Cryptic? You better bow to his whims, or else the freebie won't play.

this kind of attitude would scare alot of people away if cryptic would say that
i find it very weak that people wont let free users talk and share their feelings/opinions
the forum people are much worse than the game's restrictions

LET PEOPLE GIVE THEIR OPINIONS, even if they are free users

forums are made to have discussions, not to let people tell others what to do
sorudo was trying to give his opinions, yet you just tell him to buy or leave, THAT's a weak community
and i thought GuildWars had a bad community, wow, for cryptic i hope newbies wont first try to make their points on the forums before buying the game, or else they leave without thinking twice

besides, silver users are useful to cryptic too:
- they can buy certain stuff, even though they play for free
- they can become gold
- they can give their opinions and let people think about it (just like gold members)
- they can even make better suggestions to make the game (both silver and gold) a better place

also, i know for a fact that sorudo has been paying for the game a long time now, as i know him personally :rolleyes:

so tell me: why dont you let EVERYONE talk about his/her feelings/thoughts/opinions ? (a straight answer plz, asking for the reason, not your thoughts)
if you are right, and silver players should stfu, let "CRYPTIC" tell us
but should they do that, more people would leave, and less would join

this was stuck inside my head whenever i got on the forums, now i let it out

i dont know the restrictions, as i never played the game as normal member, but i hope i can do enough what i want, IF i ever play it (cuz GW gets better soon)

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Its admirable that you are defending your friend Sorudo, Kurachi. But no one prevented anyone from expressing their opinion nor told a F2Per to STFU.

What they did was express their opinions. Essentially they expressed belief that someone who is consistently negative, who has only complaints (as far as we can tell) about the game might be better off elsewhere.

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There has been a lot of comments (and quite rightly so) about the Silver archetype, but very little on the changes to the advantage progression for the free form heroes.

I am not too happy with the change to 1 advantage point per level as once past level 22 they will only be getting 3 advantage points every 3 levels as opposed to 4. What I like about the current distribution of points is that every time a character gains a level there is something they can improve at the power house, be it an additional power, talent or advantage. With the new system there are going to be a number of levels when a character will level up and only have 1 advantage point to spend and there are only so many 1 point advantages that I want on a character. This is going to be very irritating at high levels where I find that level progression really slows down and to finally gain a level after many hours of play only to have to wait another whole level before being able to improve the character.

The advantage of the new system is that we will have 5 more advantage points by level 16. I will admit that advantage points are a bit thin on the ground in the very early levels, but to be honest I don’t feel I am missing out. Levels up to 15-16 fly by so fast that you’re improving your character every hour or so of play. On the other had levels past 30 take me many hours of play just to advance a single level.

Does anyone else feel the same or am I a lone voice on this issue ?

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Kurachi, the problem is that sorudao is asking for more without offering to sacrifice anything else. That comes across as wanting more for free, and not being willing to pay for anything.

That simply isn't a reasonable starting point from which to even begin to attempt to haggle - it's saying 'no deal'. And frankly, it comes across in text as rather hostile.

Next, check his location: "luring idiots"

I applaud the sentiment, but until such time as Soruda actually offers something constructive to this discussion you really are defending the wrong person here.

[Archived Post]

Its admirable that you are defending your friend Sorudo, Kurachi. But no one prevented anyone from expressing their opinion nor told a F2Per to STFU.

What they did was express their opinions. Essentially they expressed belief that someone who is consistently negative, who has only complaints (as far as we can tell) about the game might be better off elsewhere.
To be fair, telling someone to leave pretty much equals telling them to STFU. They can't talk if they're not here.

As to expressing negative opinions, I'm sure it's begun to sink in to even the biggest of fanboys that this game has serious problems. To the point it's future is in question . If you don't express your opinions, things aren't going to change.

[Archived Post]

To be fair, practically every post they've made on the F2P forum has been complaining about something and that they won't play because of it.

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I suggested the person leave because they have displayed a constantly negative and sarcastic opinion about an issue they know next to nothing about. Until we've been in beta and have actually leveled an archetype build, we simply can't complain about them being too limited or underpowered. Its basic logic. And on top of the archetype complaints, there's the sense of entitlement right there with it. Silver members play for free, therefore they have to deal with some limitations. They get all content for free. If they got customization as well, then no one would ever pay, and champs would cease to exist. Its a perfectly fair compromise.

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i can only say "yay, more restrictions, more reasons not too play this game at all"
the more they limit silver, the less reason there is too even consider this game in the first place.

........ and yet, you keep saying that you want to buy a lifetime subscription.

[Archived Post]

To be fair, telling someone to leave pretty much equals telling them to STFU. They can't talk if they're not here.

As to expressing negative opinions, I'm sure it's begun to sink in to even the biggest of fanboys that this game has serious problems. To the point it's future is in question . If you don't express your opinions, things aren't going to change.

Sorudo is a current subscriber. Kurachi implied/accused others of telling F2P players to STFU, IMO as a means of portraying the two quoted individual (and others perhaps ?) as hostile toward the upcoming influx of Silver players.

I agree that the game is fast approaching a make or break point. Personally I havent played in a while and, if the F2P implementation + near future development is handled as described so far, I will not likely be coming back to CO. Even so, as someone fairly disappointed with the game myself, I dont believe that Sorudo's posts are of the helpful but critical sort.

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I'm waiting to see what the arch-types actually are before I make a choice.

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It's hard to say whether or not the AT's are going to be gimped or not until we see and play them. Just because they have 3 less powers does not make them gimp. They explained the reason for less powers is generally heroes are basically finished by the time they get to those last 3 powers, and those powers tend to just flesh out the toon a bit more. I completely agree with this reasoning. I only have 1 level 40, but the last 3-4 powers was just a toss-up and didn't really matter to me. I have 2 level 29-30 toons that are already feeling rather compete.

Another concern brought up is tier 3 powers possibly becoming available earlier due to the restricted set. I see absolutely no problem with this. The AT's cannot PvP with Gold toons so there's no advantage there. They would only be able to PvP vs other Silver AT's. No problem.

I think the devs have done a great job so far responding to our concerns. They have reversed the use of boosters in PvP and given Gold members a stipend. I think once the AT's get tested and feedback indicates them being gimped and un-fun, they'll adjust them. If they are found to be overpowered, they'll nerf them.

[Archived Post]

There has been a lot of comments (and quite rightly so) about the Silver archetype, but very little on the changes to the advantage progression for the free form heroes.

I am not too happy with the change to 1 advantage point per level as once past level 22 they will only be getting 3 advantage points every 3 levels as opposed to 4. What I like about the current distribution of points is that every time a character gains a level there is something they can improve at the power house, be it an additional power, talent or advantage. With the new system there are going to be a number of levels when a character will level up and only have 1 advantage point to spend and there are only so many 1 point advantages that I want on a character. This is going to be very irritating at high levels where I find that level progression really slows down and to finally gain a level after many hours of play only to have to wait another whole level before being able to improve the character.

The advantage of the new system is that we will have 5 more advantage points by level 16. I will admit that advantage points are a bit thin on the ground in the very early levels, but to be honest I don’t feel I am missing out. Levels up to 15-16 fly by so fast that you’re improving your character every hour or so of play. On the other had levels past 30 take me many hours of play just to advance a single level.

Does anyone else feel the same or am I a lone voice on this issue ?

If I understood well(correct me if I am wrong), effectively we are getting the same number of advantage points, so in essence we are getting each advantage point with exception of the last one before the level we are currently getting it. That in essence will boost our characters especially at low levels were currently there is little gain of advantage points up to lvl 22. I think if you double check it, you will realize that it is a nice thing after all. That would make AP at low levels more balance to high levels

[Archived Post]

Hi everyone,

First off, we plan on posting the preliminary base archetypes Monday or Tuesday. I want to stress very hard that they are preliminary and will undoubtedly change. Likewise, the advancement schedule we've announced isn't final either. We want to see how it plays out in Beta. We have considered many of the suggestions in this thread (especially regarding the number of powers and the ability to choose some of them) and we may implement some of those ideas. But first we want a baseline of sorts.

We think Champions is readily playable, easy to grasp, and fun with the advancement schedule and Archetypes we've defined. But there intangible aspects which we're looking to Beta to help us examine.

All Archetypes can solo (though it won't be as easy as with an optimized free-form build). Champs will always be superheroic in that way. But Archetypes also fit naturally into classic MMO roles. Players who are familiar with classic MMO roles may prefer to play them in that way in a team.

Regarding the changes to Free-Form Advantage points: At no level does the hero have less overall advantage points than they do today. We've just spread them out. Because we start giving them out earlier, the hero never end up with fewer along the line. We made this change for two reasons. First, we actually wanted to get some advantages into your hands earlier on. Second, the Archetype advancement schedule didn't quite gel until we spread their points out and it seemed weird to not have the free-form heroes match.

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Teehee...I'm a lifetime subber so these changes don't effect me, but I just find the archetype thing amusing because it's what I always wanted from the beginning. In fact, only one of my characters goes outside his initial skill tree (not including passive survival skills, that part is necessary due to power stat choices), and that's okay because I was bored and wondered what a character that had one skill from every tree would be like.

I think theme builds are awesome. Having people pick whatever they want was cool in theory, but that just created a need for nerfing that was intolerable. Archetypes ftw!

[Archived Post]

New plan: turn all the concerns on their head-

Lets some 11 power builds you would be happy to play :).

[Archived Post]

We have considered many of the suggestions in this thread (especially regarding the number of powers and the ability to choose some of them) and we may implement some of those ideas. But first we want a baseline of sorts.

Heh. Part of my thought process was specifically "adding one power choice at the end won't invalidate any of the work they've already done picking sets of 11."

[Archived Post]

It's not really that hard to come up with adequate 11-power builds, even if we don't retcon out of the T0 power (like most people do at level 5). For example, electric toon:

Electric Bolt
Chain Lightning
Ionic Reverb
Electric Form
Sparkstorm
Gigabolt
Bionic Shielding
Storm Sigils
Sonic Device
Electric Sheath (matter-energy conversion)
Invocation of Storm Calling

This will be somewhat survivability-challenged for top-end content, but for the vast majority of PvE it will be fine (power order can be juggled a bit). Of course, if you get too picky about theme it's easy to make unsurvivable builds, but 11 is plenty for a usable build.

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My two cents on this (it may have already been said, but I didn't follow all the discussions).
The "business model" under the F2P conversion is somewhat similar to what DDO, LOTRO and EQ2 underwent in the last year or so.
In my opinion, the "archetype" idea is good, but if there will be the possibility to buy (at a *reasonable* price) in the Cstore the "unlock" of the free-form power selection (on a toon basis) that would be welcomed, much as the traits on LOTRO or the 32pts build on DDO can be bought from the store.

Aside: the "Turbine F2P" model (the one used in DDO and LOTRO) allows for earning some of the store cash by playing, thus giving the players the impression that they can really play for free. It's something very unlikely as you'll have to grind your eyes until they bleed, but playing can help you reduce even if by a little amount the cost.
As long as those two games seems to have received far more positive reactions than what EQ2 did (that doesn't allows for point gaining while playing), I suggest that this mechanism should be also implemented also in CO. I think that the overall f2p conversion will gain more interest.

[Archived Post]

I just realized that archetypes might benefit from fewer powers as their advantage points remain the same - if the powers are well chosen then each one would be more powerful on an average than someone with free form build.

I like it anyway and I agree with others that 11 powers might be enough if tweaked right, but one free selectable twelfth power on top wouldn't be so bad and give a nice taste of full customization.

Making it so you have to decide between two different powers at some levels would also open up for some more variety which I think would benefit the game as a whole (I don't think people are that thrilled about seeing a bunch of characters using the exact same powers) and squeeze out two roles kinda out of one archetype - essentially creating two different archetypes with separate focus (whether it's CC, tanking, damage) out of one single AT.

[Archived Post]

I just realized that archetypes might benefit from fewer powers as their advantage points remain the same - if the powers are well chosen then each one would be more powerful on an average than someone with free form build.

I haven't considered that, potentially that could be quite good, especially in pvp.

[Archived Post]

FWIW, you don't need an Archetype to not assign advantage points to all powers. I ususally don't assign advantage points to my last three powers - they're the ones I won't use as frequently, so there's less value in ranking them up, plus they're also the powers I'll retcon frequently to see how other powers feel in play.

[Archived Post]

My two cents on this (it may have already been said, but I didn't follow all the discussions).
The "business model" under the F2P conversion is somewhat similar to what DDO, LOTRO and EQ2 underwent in the last year or so.
In my opinion, the "archetype" idea is good, but if there will be the possibility to buy (at a *reasonable* price) in the Cstore the "unlock" of the free-form power selection (on a toon basis) that would be welcomed, much as the traits on LOTRO or the 32pts build on DDO can be bought from the store.

Aside: the "Turbine F2P" model (the one used in DDO and LOTRO) allows for earning some of the store cash by playing, thus giving the players the impression that they can really play for free. It's something very unlikely as you'll have to grind your eyes until they bleed, but playing can help you reduce even if by a little amount the cost.
As long as those two games seems to have received far more positive reactions than what EQ2 did (that doesn't allows for point gaining while playing), I suggest that this mechanism should be also implemented also in CO. I think that the overall f2p conversion will gain more interest.

The issue here is that giving away on one time payment customization for one slot without changing anything else is indeed giving away a soft lifetime subscription. There is nothing else that is actually need it. It wouldn't be an impression of being able to play the game for free without almost any limitation, it would be a reality.
In order to give away customization, leveling would have to be hellish in terms of having xp nerfed by a factor greater than 4, increasing the grind to the roof. Also changing the basic casual philosophy of the game where gear while welcome is not by any means necessary, to a required an hierarchical lair-gear-lair progression.

[Archived Post]

New plan: turn all the concerns on their head-

Lets some 11 power builds you would be happy to play :).

We're trying to do just that in the Builds forum.

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=118597

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I'd bet cashey-money that no base archetype will include a t4 power :).

I think you are correct on that bet. I don't believe any archetype will have a T4 power.

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Then leeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaavvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Silvers get 99.9% of the game for free. They simply have no foundation from which to complain. Want to experience the full game? Subscribe. Otherwise, you get what you pay for. End of story.

cryptic is saying exactly the same, problem is you only get 60% free, the rest is exclusive for subs.
also, if there is no reason to play silver because of the limits they make, then ppl rather leave like you said then buy a sub.

[Archived Post]

cryptic is saying exactly the same, problem is you only get 60% free, the rest is exclusive for subs.
also, if there is no reason to play silver because of the limits they make, then ppl rather leave like you said then buy a sub.


Silver gets more than 99% of the content free.

Silver gets more than 90% of the costumes free.

Silver is primarily limited in that they play classes rather than open builds.

Why would anyone pay to sub if Cryptic gave away, for free, the only thing of consequence that remains ?

Seriously,

Cryptic: "hey here is something for free. A gift for you. If you like it enough we wouldnt mind if you chose to support the product."

Entitlement response: "If you dont give us everything for free, pretty much give full subscription treatment at no cost, thats the same as telling us to go away."

If you go to the grocery store and they are giving away free tastes/samples of gourmet cheese do you hassle them for not giving you all of it. ?

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If you go to the grocery store and they are giving away free tastes/samples of gourmet cheese do you hassle them for not giving you all of it. ?


Why yes, yes I do.

[Archived Post]

Why yes, yes I do.

BAD BADGER! BAD!

[Archived Post]

Why yes, yes I do.

Hmmm, so do I. It would seem that it was a bad idea to use cheese for my example.

[Archived Post]

Hmmm, so do I. It would seem that it was a bad idea to use cheese for my example.

Being from Wisconsin I love cheese, I have to. I mean I really have to it's against the law not to love cheese. And if you publicly admit you don't love it...Well there are places for people like that.

[Archived Post]

If you go to the grocery store and they are giving away free tastes/samples of gourmet cheese do you hassle them for not giving you all of it. ?

I usually put on a pair of joke glasses or a hat or something, go back around, and get more.

It's like Halloween every friday when the supermarket does free sample day. WOO!

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The issue I see with archetypes is they don't sell the product.

At its bottom line, Cryptic has put the goal as selling silvers on becoming golds, and has hobbled silvers with the idea that this will give them incentive to go gold....Except that if you never play an open build system, how will you know its good?

Half the challenge for me was trying out new powers in the powerhouse, and trying to judge which ones I needed for my build...an Archetype will never see that end of it. They'll never understand that picking eye of the storm over gauntlet chainsaw makes them more tankable...Because Cryptic will be making that choice for them.

I'm not going to argue that a silver member should have unlimited customization...but it strikes me as a bit silly to bill the strong suit of your game as customization, and then utterly strip that aspect out of play for the people you're trying to sell it to.

I think power selection witin a set theme, or even selling powerset access individually, tops that system.

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Being from Wisconsin I love cheese, I have to. I mean I really have to it's against the law not to love cheese. And if you publicly admit you don't love it...Well there are places for people like that.



Wisconsin ?

Isnt that the place where they used to make the best cheese in the U.S. ? You know, before California took that honor.



Kidding, kidding, kidding:D

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Wisconsin ?

Isnt that the place where they used to make the best cheese in the U.S. ? You know, before California took that honor.



Kidding, kidding, kidding:D

BLASHPHIMER!!!! Thou shalt be smitten.. Smitten that's not right...Smited? Smote? Whatever, I'm just trying to say its gona get bad for you.

[Archived Post]

The issue I see with archetypes is they don't sell the product.

At its bottom line, Cryptic has put the goal as selling silvers on becoming golds, and has hobbled silvers with the idea that this will give them incentive to go gold....Except that if you never play an open build system, how will you know its good?

Half the challenge for me was trying out new powers in the powerhouse, and trying to judge which ones I needed for my build...an Archetype will never see that end of it. They'll never understand that picking eye of the storm over gauntlet chainsaw makes them more tankable...Because Cryptic will be making that choice for them.

I'm not going to argue that a silver member should have unlimited customization...but it strikes me as a bit silly to bill the strong suit of your game as customization, and then utterly strip that aspect out of play for the people you're trying to sell it to.

I think power selection witin a set theme, or even selling powerset access individually, tops that system.

Excellent point(s), very well put.

I really do think that Cryptic is gambling on Silver exposure to Gold builds, in play, to make the case for subscription.

When the blademaster AT gets his tail handed to him by a DB gold character he is likely to ask some questions.

When the AT DPS gets defeated in a TT run while the Gold DPS remains on his feet he is likely to ask questions.

Etc.


I dont think that this approach to F2P is ideal, perfect, or anything of the sort. The ideal would be more engaging content/zones/etc to sell, along with a much more robust C-Store.

Unfortunately CO just doesnt have the content to sell piecemeal, and the genre is such that much of the normal cash shop approach is inappropriate. Characters need to be powerful without C-Store purchases in order for this to be a superhero game. Whats left are minor QoL items and cosmetic enhancements.

If the C-Store starts getting costume sets on a much more frequent basis then things might work out. A new costume set will likely get a gold to spend their stipend and might get a silver to buy it and a character slot to use it.


Honestly if the powers and sets were better balanced against eachother then selling powers/sets would have been a great idea.

[Archived Post]

The issue I see with archetypes is they don't sell the product.

At its bottom line, Cryptic has put the goal as selling silvers on becoming golds, and has hobbled silvers with the idea that this will give them incentive to go gold....Except that if you never play an open build system, how will you know its good?

Half the challenge for me was trying out new powers in the powerhouse, and trying to judge which ones I needed for my build...an Archetype will never see that end of it. They'll never understand that picking eye of the storm over gauntlet chainsaw makes them more tankable...Because Cryptic will be making that choice for them.

I'm not going to argue that a silver member should have unlimited customization...but it strikes me as a bit silly to bill the strong suit of your game as customization, and then utterly strip that aspect out of play for the people you're trying to sell it to.

I think power selection witin a set theme, or even selling powerset access individually, tops that system.

I would think that just seeing other players use powers would peak their curiosity. Seeing green fire, bombs sticking out of the ground, crackling auras. All things you see, some would really want...enough to pay for a sub.

The goal, yes, is to get Silver players to pay for Gold membership, but if they don't sub, Cryptic still stands to make money that otherwise would not be there through C-Store purchases. Either way, Cryptic stand to increase their profits. This is a good thing...they make money and keep the servers from shutting down, and I get to keep playing :D

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The goal, yes, is to get Silver players to pay for Gold membership, but if they don't sub, Cryptic still stands to make money that otherwise would not be there through C-Store purchases. Either way, Cryptic stand to increase their profits. This is a good thing...they make money and keep the servers from shutting down, and I get to keep playing :D

This. There is no point to offering F2P if those that decide not to go gold stop playing the game. We need them to stay around as much as we need gold players. How can we increase REPEAT C-store purchases if silver players aarent encouraged to stick around with silver accounts?

[Archived Post]

The issue I see with archetypes is they don't sell the product.

At its bottom line, Cryptic has put the goal as selling silvers on becoming golds, and has hobbled silvers with the idea that this will give them incentive to go gold....Except that if you never play an open build system, how will you know its good?

Half the challenge for me was trying out new powers in the powerhouse, and trying to judge which ones I needed for my build...an Archetype will never see that end of it. They'll never understand that picking eye of the storm over gauntlet chainsaw makes them more tankable...Because Cryptic will be making that choice for them.

I'm not going to argue that a silver member should have unlimited customization...but it strikes me as a bit silly to bill the strong suit of your game as customization, and then utterly strip that aspect out of play for the people you're trying to sell it to.

I think power selection witin a set theme, or even selling powerset access individually, tops that system.

Part of the problem the game's had since launch is that for a lot of people, the completely open system is TOO challenging. Having them come into the game with ATs basically puts warm, friendly, yellow letters on the box that say "Don't Panic." Get people in, let them see what's here, let them experience the community. They can play with costumes, they can blow the bad mans up and join in the RP and compete in costume contests, and all that good stuff. PvP if they like, or don't. Get them into their comfort zone and then offer this whole other level of gameplay to them.

It's basically like if WoW said "So you like being a warrior? How about a warrior with druid heals and mage AoEs?" Only backwards. But the way silvers will be looking at the problem...that's basically it.

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I would think that just seeing other players use powers would peak their curiosity. Seeing green fire, bombs sticking out of the ground, crackling auras. All things you see, some would really want...enough to pay for a sub.

The goal, yes, is to get Silver players to pay for Gold membership, but if they don't sub, Cryptic still stands to make money that otherwise would not be there through C-Store purchases. Either way, Cryptic stand to increase their profits. This is a good thing...they make money and keep the servers from shutting down, and I get to keep playing :D

Oh, I'll be clear on this point: I think FTP is a good move for Cryptic, without question.

I just feel they're not exploiting their system as well as they could be.

I've heard the argument about seeing Gold in action and wanting it based on that, but I feel inclined to point out that its not one single power or another that makes an open build system viable, its the capacity to combine them. I think a person seeing bombs in the ground might want to try out a munitions build to test it out, but I don't think they'll make the intuitive leap to "Oh hey, he has mines because he's a fire form user, and those two mesh well in play, and give mines a damage buff...Boy I wish I could do that!'

Synergy is whats really missing from the archetype system, because that element is taken out of the player's hands. As far as an archatype fire guy is concerned, mines are a munitions archetype weapon.

Now does that mean that a silver should be able to add mine attacks to his fire type? Probably not...But if we give them the keys to the city, let them make a couple of choices in their build...well that Might get them thinking in the right direction.

Just a thought.

Sidebar: And yeah...mines and fire form are a horrible example because of how much mines currently suck. Hopefully when Cryptic gets around to making them viable, we'll get to see what they can Really do :)

[Archived Post]

Now does that mean that a silver should be able to add mine attacks to his fire type? Probably not...But if we give them the keys to the city, let them make a couple of choices in their build...well that Might get them thinking in the right direction.


This is what I'm hoping they'll do in Beta, give a couple choices along the way for AT's. It would give Silvers a slight taste of customization through power selection.

[Archived Post]

One thing I'm curious about--will you be able to *duplicate* an Archetype build as a Gold free-form build? In particular, will the archetype builds follow the same 'Have X powers of type' pre-requisites that free-form builds do (and for that matter, will that be changing at all with the 'cleanup' work)? Some people complain about '11 powers instead of 14 means I'm gimped', while I look at my level 40 build and can easily point out at least one power that's *useless* to me, and is only there because I needed another power of that type to fulfill the requirement to get a power I actually *do* use...

[Archived Post]

........ and yet, you keep saying that you want to buy a lifetime subscription.

o, so i can't be selfless here?....shees

[Archived Post]

One thing I'm curious about--will you be able to *duplicate* an Archetype build as a Gold free-form build?
We'll probably see when the first archetypes get posted, but I'd bet on yes. Archetype builds are intended to be slightly gimped.

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o, so i can't be selfless here?....shees

.... selfless? YOU ...?!?

...

...

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *snrk* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *gasp* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *wheeze* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *cough* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...!!

[Archived Post]

.... selfless? YOU ...?!?

...

...

BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *snrk* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *gasp* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *wheeze* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *cough* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ...!!

and they call me a negative influence....
i rest my case:cool:

[Archived Post]

One thing I'm curious about--will you be able to *duplicate* an Archetype build as a Gold free-form build? In particular, will the archetype builds follow the same 'Have X powers of type' pre-requisites that free-form builds do?

Yes, you can duplicate an Archetype as a free-form hero. We don't put anything out of order or break pre-req chains.

[Archived Post]

Hey Poz.

What is the possibility of Gold Members getting dual builds when F2P hits live?

It would be very nice to have an archetype build and free form build to switch back and forth to on a toon, for PvP purposes and such, or simply for concept reasons.

[Archived Post]

Yes, you can duplicate an Archetype as a free-form hero. We don't put anything out of order or break pre-req chains.

Except as a gold hero, you'll have 3 extra powers to play with, of course. :)

[Archived Post]

Hey Poz.

What is the possibility of Gold Members getting dual builds when F2P hits live?

It would be very nice to have an archetype build and free form build to switch back and forth to on a toon, for PvP purposes and such, or simply for concept reasons.

This would also be a very elegant solution to the "convert Gold account to Silver account" problem. If each freeform character also has an alternate Archetype build, then when you switch to Silver you are simply locked out of the freeform build but can still play that character using the Archetype build. If you re-subscribe, then all the freeform builds on your toons unluck.

-- 77IM, just brain stormin'

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I'll preface this by saying a couple things:

I completely understand the need to have some limits on free players to incentivize subscriptions and microtransactions.
A free game with limitations is better than no game, and if one disagrees with that on a particular game then the solution is to just not play it.

That said, being shoehorned into predefined archetypes, power sets and power picks is the complete and total opposite of what Champions and the Hero System are all about. It's kind of like the old Henry Ford quote: "Any color, so long as it's black."

The game play of Champions Online is already far removed from its namesake; is there really a need to further distance the fundamentals from the source material?

There should be some limits on free players, but forcing them into predefined archetypes is probably the worst in terms of the draw of Champions and the Hero System.

[Archived Post]

I'll preface this by saying a couple things:

I completely understand the need to have some limits on free players to incentivize subscriptions and microtransactions.
A free game with limitations is better than no game, and if one disagrees with that on a particular game then the solution is to just not play it.

That said, being shoehorned into predefined archetypes, power sets and power picks is the complete and total opposite of what Champions and the Hero System are all about. It's kind of like the old Henry Ford quote: "Any color, so long as it's black."

The game play of Champions Online is already far removed from its namesake; is there really a need to further distance the fundamentals from the source material?

There should be some limits on free players, but forcing them into predefined archetypes is probably the worst in terms of the draw of Champions and the Hero System.

The free accounts are really there to give you a sense of the game, but leave you yearning for more. Silver gets you in the door, but the carrot of free-form power picks, more powers, etc, are the draw to fork up the cash and sub-up.

What would be neat is if a Silver member could try out other powers in the power house, but would still have to use the predetermined AT ones in the main game.

[Archived Post]

Awesome.

Love being right.

Poz and Cryptic are pretty much owning up to the major mistake they made with this game. Free form Power Sets.

I like how he points out that iconic heroes have specific roles they play in the comic universe.

"Archetypes, however, are more like comic heroes. They don't switch roles; they do their one thing really well."

haha.

This game could have been so freaking awesome as a F2P with the archetypes system. You still get to customize with stats and advantages.

If I may Poz, I would like to point out, that in an archetype system there is actually a reason to have a market in game. I will let you guys figure out why that is.

I think PVP would have been awesome if it was a separate game like Guild Wars did.

Anyways thanks for FINALLY switching to a system like this. Maybe once players start trying these out and realizing how it is SO much better then they will turn to the light.
;)

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What is the possibility of Gold Members getting dual builds when F2P hits live?

Id put that chance somewhere between 0% and -35%. Ive only seen it mentioned in passing that its something they might consider thinking about some day.

[Archived Post]

Poz and Cryptic are pretty much owning up to the major mistake they made with this game. Free form Power Sets.

That's an interesting interpretation. To me it looks like the opposite, free form powersets are the premium product they charge money for, archetypes are for players on a tighter budget.

[Archived Post]

Awesome.

Love being right.

Poz and Cryptic are pretty much owning up to the major mistake they made with this game. Free form Power Sets.

So you feel that the reason this game wasn't a colossal success is that it had too much freedom? That it had absolutely nothing to do with the serious lack of content? Yeah, I gotta disagree. If that were the case, SWG would have doubled its population with the NGE instead of halved it.

Disregard if I misunderstood your post.

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I don't feel like reading through 19 pages so forgive me if this has already been brought up but...

The Inferno has END and REC super stats and uses Firey Form? Last I checked Firey Form scaled off PRE, as did Thermal Reverberation. Some of the other AT's had passives that didn't match the SS's as well. Either there's more unreleased info we don't know about (making passives scale off SS's maybe? BAD IDEA!) or Cryptic is tryin to severly gimp the silver AT's.

That and I *really* hope the other passives like Targeting Computer, and Primal Majesty aura get fixed. Those AT's will be nearly useless if not.

[Archived Post]

I don't feel like reading through 19 pages so forgive me if this has already been brought up but...

The Inferno has END and REC super stats and uses Firey Form? Last I checked Firey Form scaled off PRE, as did Thermal Reverberation. Some of the other AT's had passives that didn't match the SS's as well. Either there's more unreleased info we don't know about (making passives scale off SS's maybe? BAD IDEA!) or Cryptic is tryin to severly gimp the silver AT's.

Its pretty easy to buff Pre with equipment, and probably get an easier experience with end/rec.

[Archived Post]

Its pretty easy to buff Pre with equipment, and probably get an easier experience with end/rec.

I'm going out on a limb here by saying that you've never played a fire toon before have you? You don't need END or REC as long as you have flashfire and thermal reverberation.

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I'm going out on a limb here by saying that you've never played a fire toon before have you? You don't need END or REC as long as you have flashfire and thermal reverberation.
Three to 40 and my next one is at 28. I also have fire splattered throughout other builds. Im going to go out on a limb and assume that you think there is only one correct way to play?

Again, I believe end/rec is much easier to level with for someone who is brand-spanking new to the game.

[Archived Post]

Awesome.

Love being right.

Poz and Cryptic are pretty much owning up to the major mistake they made with this game. Free form Power Sets.

I like how he points out that iconic heroes have specific roles they play in the comic universe.

"Archetypes, however, are more like comic heroes. They don't switch roles; they do their one thing really well."

haha.

This game could have been so freaking awesome as a F2P with the archetypes system. You still get to customize with stats and advantages.

If I may Poz, I would like to point out, that in an archetype system there is actually a reason to have a market in game. I will let you guys figure out why that is.

I think PVP would have been awesome if it was a separate game like Guild Wars did.

Anyways thanks for FINALLY switching to a system like this. Maybe once players start trying these out and realizing how it is SO much better then they will turn to the light.
;)

I hate to be rude, but you honestly are so far off the mark that it's really quite astounding. The open power system is what made the game interesting for a great deal of us who still play it. If Cryptic ever, ever made Archetypes mandatory, the game would die so quickly it would actually erase its entire existence from the space-time continuum.

I'm happy that players like you now have the Archetype option, I really am. But your smug "I told you so" attitude is just hilariously wrong, and will make you nothing but enemies on here.

[Archived Post]

It's also weird that 'The Glacier' has invuln, but no ST. I hope these powers are modified to use the SS's for the ATs, otherwise it'll be a big choice between doing good damage or buffing your all important passive power...

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Superman is a Gold Member....

;)

mu-ahahahaha. superman is a triple platinum member with VIP status. not sure you could make a superman if we went to level 100.

[Archived Post]

Please be nice and stick to Q&A and related discussion, or I'll pull this thread over!

[Archived Post]

Please be nice and stick to Q&A and related discussion, or I'll pull this thread over!

Hey poz, while we've got you, I'd like to say that the Archetypes look pretty cool, but you need to absolutely stress the hell out of the fact that more Archetypes will be coming to the game over time. Nothing would frustrate me more as a Silver player than coming in hoping to make an Electric hero and finding no option to do so.

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Query for Poz:

Some of the powers listed in the Archetype descriptions are new; and one in particular intrigues me...

The Soldier's Steady Shot power - is this, as I hope, an Assault rifle or SMG based Energy Builder? <.< (Can you tell us? Please?) - Because I would really, really love it if it was <. .> I would do a jig. (Thankfully you don't have to see that horrifying sight, but still, a jig will be danced!)

Also, given all the alterations going on... and assuming I'm right about the above... could this possibly mean the integration of SMG costume parts and Assault Rifle costume parts?

[Archived Post]

Query for Poz:

Some of the powers listed in the Archetype descriptions are new; and one in particular intrigues me...

The Soldier's Steady Shot power - is this, as I hope, an Assault rifle or SMG based Energy Builder? <.< (Can you tell us? Please?) - Because I would really, really love it if it was <. .> I would do a jig. (Thankfully you don't have to see that horrifying sight, but still, a jig will be danced!)

Also, given all the alterations going on... and assuming I'm right about the above... could this possibly mean the integration of SMG costume parts and Assault Rifle costume parts?

Either that, or it's a single pistol EB... A single pistol steadied and supported by the off-hand.

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Either that, or it's a single pistol EB... A single pistol steadied and supported by the off-hand.

Hrmm... that could be nice too; but not as nice as the former.

>.< Still, if it gets us single pistols as an option, that would be nice... Guess we just wait and see >,<

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My thoughts on the AT's...

The lack of self healing on most of the builds worries me. Not necessarily a bad thing as it'll promote teaming (and going gold), but imo every AT should have *something* as a heal.

The Inferno: Some overlap (conflag, firebreath and pyre) seems odd to me.

The Soldier: Too much overlap in powers for my taste. Rocket launcher (which I really hope got buffed), SMG burst and shotgun... pick one of those and stick with it. Assault rifle and gatling gun have a bit of overlap even though AR is single target only whereas GG is a cylinder. I hope targeting computer got a major buff or there's going to be a lot of angry soldiers running around.

The Blade: Dragon's Bite and Reaper's Embrace have a bit of overlap, though each does serve a specific purpose. While Reaper's Caress can be advantaged to be AoE, not getting a "true" AoE till level 27 just seems painful.

The Savage: No real issues to speak of, aside from the STR/CON SS w/ regen.

The Behemoth: Main attack is defensive combo until level 11. That's bad. The AoE gained at lvl 11 is Thunderclap. That's also bad unless the cooldown was removed. The first actual damage dealing power (single target only) is gained at lvl 27. No "real" AoE till lvl 40. That's bad. The issues aren't so much the powers given, but the order they're gained.

The Glacier: No real issues here either, aside from the SS of DEX/END w/ invuln. That and I just don't like unbreakable without self healing to back it up.

The Mind: One relatively weak AoE gained at lvl 27. Ego Sleep and Ego Hold seem redundant, though I don't know how the hold mechanics have been changed. Definitely an AT that's pretty much only support with no real offense to speak of.

The Grimoire: Too many new powers to really say if it's easily playable or not. I really hope the primal aura has been buffed.

[Archived Post]

Poz and Cryptic are pretty much owning up to the major mistake they made with this game. Free form Power Sets.

Freeform wasn't a mistake.

Insufficient content, and a massive launch-day Nerf, were the mistakes.

I like how he points out that iconic heroes have specific roles they play in the comic universe.
Some of them are multi-role; Iron Man (new problem? New suit!), Batman (contingency plans within contingency plans), Superman (goes without saying), and others.


Anyways thanks for FINALLY switching to a system like this. Maybe once players start trying these out and realizing how it is SO much better then they will turn to the light.
;)
I only know of one paper-and-pencil "superheroes" game that didn't let you build your character freeform, with a point-based system: Brave New World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World_%28role-playing_game%29).

That's also the only one I know of, that was an absolute, total, and abysmal failure.

(Games I know of, which were - at least at one time - successful to varying degrees include GURPS Supers, Champions, Mutants and Masterminds, Mayfair's iteration of DC Heroes, the old FASERIP incarnation of Marvel Superheroes, Aberrant, Heroes Unlimited, Silver Age Sentinels, Godlike, and Villains & Vigilantes.)

[Archived Post]

It's also weird that 'The Glacier' has invuln, but no ST. I hope these powers are modified to use the SS's for the ATs, otherwise it'll be a big choice between doing good damage or buffing your all important passive power...

That's only the start:

Inferno has Fire Form, but no Pre to 'power' it (as well as its two best powers at 32 and 40). A Fire build also loves Thermal Reverb and high Pre for obvious reasons, of which it won't get until 40 (and no Pre otherwise short of items).

Soldier has Targeting Computer. Do you see your playerbase using it? There's a reason for it - everybody dies too quickly short of maybe Bosses and above that rank. And Gatling Gun at 32? Painful.

Blade looks pretty solid, but has a Dragon attack at 32. Yeesh.

Savage has no Rec, but Regen is so powerful that it's not too bad without it. But it would be a lot better with.

Glacier...where to start. You have a basic Ice Dex/End build, but with Invul? Seriously? Why not, oh, I don't know, Ice Form? That would not be a fun build to level at all.

Mind...wow. Just...wow. Ego Sleep at 6, and you'll be using your End Gainer and Ego Blast to kill everything until 17, when you get a pet. Your next 'attack' is at 27, with Ego Sprites. I challenge your dev team to actually play that build as listed from 1-40 solo and then come back and say with a straight face it's playable.

Grimore, not sure on as I don't know what Pillar of Poz is. But that's not too fun either with the low amount of attacks.

So, IMHO, out of the builds, 3 out of the 8 (Blade, Savage, and Behemoth - all melee, go figure) look like they'd be fun and are more or less built 'right' based on seeing them from an outside Gold subscription light. The others...have VERY glaring issues to them that I hope you look at beforehand, as F2P players will try these out and then complain that CO is too hard, among other things.

And there's my 2 cents.

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challenge your dev team to actually play that build as listed from 1-40 solo and then come back and say with a straight face it's playable..

Don't think it's supposed to be, Bob.

Welcome back to the bad old days of shouting "Cleric 25 LFG!!" for 2 or 3 hours after you log in.

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@Bob - Keep in mind they might be thinking to have the players use gear to boost those other stats. I said this in another thread a minute ago:

Viable does not mean "godlike" - many of us right now today can pretty much crush anything in the game shy of lairs, by ourselves. A mission rated for 3 players is still in easy-solo territory for a lot of us.

These archetypes are designed play more like the game's initial balance level had in mind - that is, you can solo, but you're going to have to be careful, grab your green orbs; and for some ATs, you'd really be better off in a team. CO is pretty ridiculously easy on anything but Elite anyway >.< I mean, didn't someone do 1-40 on just their energy builder and 1st attack? I could swear I read someone on here did that. Even if they didn't; I know even my concept characters kind of laugh at anything outside of lairs.

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Quoted from another thread:

They've said that they're fleshing out sets and adding clones of powers with slight differences, as well as reviewing some powers, so at this point, I'm basically assuming this:

The existing passives mentioned in there that make no sense will actually be clones of current ones with different stats effecting them, and they are reviewing/changing others to use different stats. And by the mere fact that telepathy is in there, many telepathy powers are getting major reviews.

If I find out this isn't the case, I'm basically gonna ***** them out incessantly for hiring an incompetant player to design archetypes for their game, because using existing power setups, these are terrible, terrible builds, and they should be ashamed. If my assumption above is wrong, no new players who try F2P are even going to consider playing the game, as they'll be running around gimped as hell.

But again, I'm assuming these things.

Mistform, the balance level they intended originally is irrelevant. The balance level that other players have is what matters. If it's "free to play but you're going to have a friggen useless character relative to others unless you pay" then they're gonna lose all their possible subscribers. The archetypes have to be in the same range of power of other players. If that's too strong for the game's difficulty level, they need to increase the game's difficulty. I'm not kidding when I say any character I have made could probably outdamage any of the archetypes posted by 2-3x, even my healers (again, assuming my assumptions above were wrong).

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The archetypes have to be in the same range of power of other players. If that's too strong for the game's difficulty level, they need to increase the game's difficulty.

This.

The difficulty level has already been set. That boat's sailed.

For what it's worth, mistform, I totally agree with you, and I was talking about it with my friends just now - These archetypes, I think, represent a challenge/power level that the designers -originally- intended for player characters, not the massively bloated overblown, overpowered monstrosities that we currently have (and I love ;) )

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ah, open power selection. makes it hard for devs to envision what we'll create huh.
have to say i have a relatively squishy sorceress (though she is getting much better at higher levels) and i find the PVE pretty easy outside of lairs. i'm catching myself praying for a boss to fight more and more. mobs just...well.....melt....

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Quoted from another thread:



Mistform, the balance level they intended originally is irrelevant. The balance level that other players have is what matters. If it's "free to play but you're going to have a friggen useless character relative to others unless you pay" then they're gonna lose all their possible subscribers. The archetypes have to be in the same range of power of other players. If that's too strong for the game's difficulty level, they need to increase the game's difficulty. I'm not kidding when I say any character I have made could probably outdamage any of the archetypes posted by 2-3x, even my healers (again, assuming my assumptions above were wrong).

I disagree - if you asked me to play by the balance level other players have, *I* couldn't play solo, because many of my characters are based purely on concept with a lot of standard build advice totally out the window. CO as it is at present is easy even for that, but if they ramped it up to what a lot of people run with powers picked solely because they're powerful, I'd be as screwed as AT players.

That's the thing with CO, the power curve is exponential based on how far you're willing to powergame. You can't balance the game around that, if you try, you'll break it for everyone below that level. You either have to restrict everyone, or simply make it impossible to run anything but a godbuild. Well or you can leave it as-is, where the game is badly unbalanced in a lot of ways... but fun.

Now, could there be improvements to the ATs? Absolutely. That said, I don't want them overdoing it - not because I want to force people to go Gold; but because I'd really rather the focus be away from "I can clear 12 spawns at once" and a little more on "This is my character, he's an alien from Someplace, and the light of our moon makes him breathe fire."

I guess what really gets me is statements like "How will they solo with no self-heal!?!" - I solo with no self heal on most of my characters. It's easy. You grab green orbs while blocking, or you run away, or you pop a heal scroll/bandage/whatever you have. That's what gets me - there is no type of power you NEED to solo in this game.

You can also overlap several powers and still be absolutely and totally fine. My Evil Overlord build has several AoEs on it, they're mostly gratuitous, but it's fun, it gives me a variety of things to toss around, and that's really all there is to it.

I admit, The Mind in particular is a bit worrying... that's going to be an AT that pretty much has to group; and The Grimoire may have to as well; but I really do not think any of these is going to end up in a situation where they can't solo.

I guess my point, boiled down, is that I think a lot of people have utterly and totally lost sight of what a 'typical' CO character probably ought to be. The walking gods most of us play are WAY beyond what was intended,and the only reason it's not been nerfed into oblivion is because the screaming that would ensue would probably kill the game right then and there.

While I do think the devs can and should improve the ATs some; I really just do not want to see them all end up with builds reminiscent of the high end cookie-cutters. Difficulty doesn't kill games nearly as fast as boredom; and while I think a lot of us can put up with easy fights on the basis of the fun of blowing up a dozen guys at once... I don't know if the players coming in F2P will. And I most definitely don't want them balancing the game upward so the AT players have a challenge - because if those builds become powerful and the game gets balanced upward, then my fun builds are underwater. I'd rather avoid that for obvious reasons.

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Hey, if anything Archetypes will certainly help point out to Cryptic what powers need the most help...

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Just wondering about how there may be versions of existing powers in different frameworks, which use different stats. A version of Invuln that uses END? What about Fire Form? It's already in the fire framework, yet the Inferno doesn't get PRE. And doesn't targeting computer only work for Power Armor? Are they just removing that limitation all together?

And the Grimoire gets 2 sigils but no pet at all? You guys just did this big pet pass and Silver players will never know about it...

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Awesome.

Love being right.

Poz and Cryptic are pretty much owning up to the major mistake they made with this game. Free form Power Sets.

I like how he points out that iconic heroes have specific roles they play in the comic universe.

"Archetypes, however, are more like comic heroes. They don't switch roles; they do their one thing really well."

haha.

This game could have been so freaking awesome as a F2P with the archetypes system. You still get to customize with stats and advantages.

If I may Poz, I would like to point out, that in an archetype system there is actually a reason to have a market in game. I will let you guys figure out why that is.

I think PVP would have been awesome if it was a separate game like Guild Wars did.

Anyways thanks for FINALLY switching to a system like this. Maybe once players start trying these out and realizing how it is SO much better then they will turn to the light.
;)

Ah--so you're one of those people who would rather be shoehorned into playing a cookie-cutter clone character because for whatever reason actual flexibility and creativity is too hard for you? Garbage like this is why I dropped D&D and other similar class-based systems when I discovered GURPS and Hero, games that let you build your character around your concept, rather than demanding that you only play one of *their* concepts (the Ford quote's already been mentioned here).

The primary problem with archetypes/classes is that they almost always go for the specialist 'Good at one thing, suck at everything else' plan, rather than the more moderate 'Decent at most things, extra good at something or somethings' that I tend to build characters as--D&D is kind of notorious for this...try designing a character who is a good fighter, has moderate 'rogue-type' skills, and has low-level spellcasting and healing abilities (geared more towards utility spells, like Mend, curing light wounds, firestarting/warmth, etc--what would be considered 'Low Magic' in some settings). Are you going to be as good as the specialist in their speciality? Of course not. Are you going to get to point and laugh as you can back up the specialist in their speciality *and* deal with situations that hand them their heads because it's something they suck at due to being a specialist? Yup.

I understand part of why Cryptic is using this as their f2p model--they need *something* that's more limited than free-form as incentive to go Gold, *and* they're catering to the 'Math is Hard!' people from CoX and other MMOs who go brain-dead at the idea of actual *choice*. Kinda makes me ill that people are so used to being spoon-fed concepts instead of thinking for themselves that they somehow think this is 'what should have been done in the first place', though. :-/

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Just wondering about how there may be versions of existing powers in different frameworks, which use different stats. A version of Invuln that uses END? What about Fire Form? It's already in the fire framework, yet the Inferno doesn't get PRE. And doesn't targeting computer only work for Power Armor? Are they just removing that limitation all together?

And the Grimoire gets 2 sigils but no pet at all? You guys just did this big pet pass and Silver players will never know about it...

Targeting Computer does indeed work with sets other than Power Armor. Unfortunately that still doesn't make it a very good choice unless it gets a major overhaul. There is a reason no one uses it outside of lairs.

I guess what really gets me is statements like "How will they solo with no self-heal!?!" - I solo with no self heal on most of my characters. It's easy. You grab green orbs while blocking, or you run away, or you pop a heal scroll/bandage/whatever you have. That's what gets me - there is no type of power you NEED to solo in this game.

I never said that a heal was required for soloing. My only comment about a self heal was in regard to The Behemoth as a tanking build, and that it had neither an active defense nor a self heal, at least one of which I would deem necessary for a tank.

I admit, The Mind in particular is a bit worrying... that's going to be an AT that pretty much has to group; and The Grimoire may have to as well; but I really do not think any of these is going to end up in a situation where they can't solo.


The Behemoth is going to have issues soloing as well. You have only Defensive Combo until level 17 and then DC and Hurl till 27. You're going to be really hard-pressed to take out Masters and Supers with just those two powers.

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*pokes* Ah, missed seeing that the actual builds were posted now--wasn't expecting that until later in the week. Wow, what a bunch of lackluster and *dull* designs. I'll leave the min-maxing complaints to others..the basic *concepts* they're built around, compared to the power sets they're drawing from, is boooooring. You have the soldier, who draws from *just* the heavier weapons in the Munitions set...where's the Gun-Fu guy who focuses on the two-pistol powers to throw lots of lead everywhere instead of focusing on putting bigger shots on fewer targets? For that matter, where's your Bruce Li based around unarmed combat and rapid strikes alongside your Textbook Ninja 'The Blade'? No speedster at all? For that matter, where's your gadgeteer relying more on their bag of tricks than on direct attack? This is a very *bad* representation of what the game is capable of. :-(

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To me, It just looks like they're increasing the difficulty of the game, by forcing the Silver players to have ridiculous builds that majority of us would deem ineffective. Unless some of these powers are stepped up and the right stats are aimed towards the build, people may have to buy those damage enhancers from the c-store. Or sub.

And yes, I know it's all subject to change but as someone else stated, it's kind of a bummer to see that after a year of running the game this is what we see.

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Hm. Broader reactions to the builds:


Inferno: you don't get your bread and butter attack (conflag) until 32. Until then, it's probably fire breath and more fire breath, or maybe advantaged fire breath mixed with fire strike. Survivability will be an issue, there's no CC and not very fast damage until 32, but should be doable for most PvE stuff. And WTF is with stats?
Soldier: well, I've made it to 26 without a passive at all, targeting computer can't be any worse. Lots of redundancy there, shotgun, smg, and gatling are all spammable AoEs.
Blade: well, your AoEs are kinda crap (advantaged reaper's caress?), and no self-heals, but should be soloable.
Savage: bad stat synergy for regen, but should still be pretty much easy-mode in PvE.
Behemoth: until level 27, your offense will be defensive combo and thunderclap. No self-heal. Should be doable if tricky.
Glacier: dex/end with invuln? Invuln doesn't need SS:Str, but best to not have actual stat *conflict* with str. Other than, power choices look usable enough.
Mind: no offense other than ego blast until level 17 will make early levels hard. Should be playable enough after that level.
Grimoire: has several powers I can't identify, but no build with storm sigils will be unplayable.

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Hmm. You know, I see people here complaining about lack of heal powers in the builds, and just got reading the article over on Massively where they mention buying heals from the C-store. Are people *really* that blind, or just stupid/lazy? There's 6 craftable heals available in each of the crafting trees (though the Mystic one somewhat sucks as it's a 'health loan' rather than a straight heal. Watch out for the crash when it wears off)--small, medium, and large straight heals as well as 'shields' which are part-defense-boost part-heal, all made from components that are common as dirt. Plus, each Zone has vendors selling 'MARS' stims and shields (I forget what the other tier of heals/shields from them is called), though those have a level requirement in order to buy. Plus you have the Hero Games vendors that sell the same sort of things, but costing Acclaim rather than Resources. The primary advantage of heal powers is that you can pop them off more frequently (I know Reiki isn't as strong as the Devices in a dose...not so sure about the Celestial heals as I haven't tried them), but they're not All-Important to have as there are *easily* available alternatives.

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Uh... what is the Behemoth going to use to hurt people? Hurl? Is it getting some super secret massive buff that turns it into something that actually does damage? Is it still going to be that discus which, by the way, has been universally decried as "NOT AN IMPROVEMENT" over the old animation yet remains unchanged?

Defensive Combo..?

Clobber..??

No self heals and no attacks of note until level 27.. I'll be surprised if anyone manages to stick with that archtype that long.

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Uh... what is the Behemoth going to use to hurt people? Hurl? Is it getting some super secret massive buff that turns it into something that actually does damage? Is it still going to be that discus which, by the way, has been universally decried as "NOT AN IMPROVEMENT" over the old animation yet remains unchanged?

Defensive Combo..?

Clobber..??

No self heals and no attacks of note until level 27.. I'll be surprised if anyone manages to stick with that archtype that long.

Maybe they're going to copy CoX and finally put in a default 'punch' attack in addition to actual power use?

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Maybe they're going to copy CoX and finally put in a default 'punch' attack in addition to actual power use?

Um, that would be Clobber.

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Demolish at least should be earned early. Uppercut is too good for them to have! Take it out and give them Iron Chain ^_^

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Um, that would be Clobber.

D'oh! Shows you that I've never done a Might build, obviously....

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Demolish at least should be earned early. Uppercut is too good for them to have! Take it out and give them Iron Chain ^_^

Nah--the idea is 'Me Hulk-clone!', keep in mind...

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I was being sarcastic.

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Maybe they're going to copy CoX and finally put in a default 'punch' attack in addition to actual power use?

So they're going to dispense justice with their energy builder, a weaksauce bodyblow designed to refresh an ability that, given their role, should never need refreshing, and the worst (and fugliest) ranged attack in the game?

I hope they're getting something else because even if all of those abilities went off at the same time, the combined damage wouldn't crest 800 points at level 40!

I mean, seriously.. someone with that build would weep tears of joy at the prospect of gaining an early Beatdown. And... that's just _WRONG_!

And, secondly.. I am highly skeptical of the the ability of that spec to tank anything at all. The threat generation just isn't there.

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May I suggest to Devs to have a separate thread for each Basic AT, so the feedback can be more focused.

The only thing, I can say is that divorce SS from slotted passive is a no no. Even in the case of not being too bad in terms of performance it will make silvers wonders if they are not getting gimped on purpose. I understand that basic AT don't need to be optimized but they should look like a good attempt to make them good.

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May I suggest to Devs to have a separate thread for each Basic AT, so the feedback can be more focused.

The only thing, I can say is that divorce SS from slotted passive is a no no. Even in the case of not being too bad in terms of performance it will make silvers wonders if they are not getting gimped on purpose. I understand that basic AT don't need to be optimized but they should look like a good attempt to make them good.

I agree. If we're going by questions here, I've a few of my own too:


Are there some significant ability changes going live with the Free to Play client? As it stands now, some builds simply won't be very fun to play at _all_. I'm looking at you, Behemoth. <_<;;


Is there a threat pass happening prior or during the Free to Play beta? The Behemoth build, for example, a tanking build... can't tank. They can't threaten a mosquito until level 27 and, even then... In addition to its dubious single target threat capabilities, it will have a difficult time tanking conventional villain packs up until level 40 because that's when they receive Shockwave.


Are there any new frameworks/powers being introduced during the Free to Play beta? I know it's implied on the chart but an official word would be nice.


Is Invulnerability a placeholder power for something that will actually scale with one of the two superstats for The Glacier? Otherwise, all it will be is a flat 30% damage reduction. Silver people are going to put advantage points into that and wonder why it costs so much to go from 10 damage shaved per hit to 12.

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The primary advantage of heal powers is that you can pop them off more frequently
No.. The primary advantage of heal powers is having a self-heal that you can pop off more frequently, has no limited number of charges and doesn't cost you anything (resources/acclaim) to use.

Maybe I'm just cheap, but if I played a silver age char and used a C-Store bought heal, I'd be thinking to myself, every time I pushed the button "Well, that's another 50 cents. Be cheaper to just die and run back"


Is Invulnerability a placeholder power for something that will actually scale with one of the two superstats for The Glacier? Otherwise, all it will be is a flat 30% damage reduction. Silver people are going to put advantage points into that and wonder why it costs so much to go from 10 damage shaved per hit to 12.

I doubt it. It's not like they worried about scaling the passive for other Archetypes either.

What's funny (to me) is that if CO had launched as a fixed class game with these as the classes, we'd all be lapping it up and loving them, never having known anything better. These archetypes prove why I'm gonna have a really hard time going back to any game that has a fixed class-based structure.

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Hmm... Seems like anyone choosing 'The Mind' is going to suffer during events and open battles where only DPS counts.

I really hope they fix how the awards are given out other wise I can see a few of the Archetypes never being used...

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What would be neat is if a Silver member could try out other powers in the power house, but would still have to use the predetermined AT ones in the main game.

I REALLY like this idea. Make them want to pay even more! :D

/signed

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"The Glacier" is a fundamentally junk Ice build. Worthless. Shatter needs to come at no later than level 11 (level 8 would be even better because it's more important to an Ice build than Invulnerability will ever be), and Ice Cage is a fundamentally worthless power that should never find it's way into a set character build (since every other power in Ice makes Ice Cages just fine as a side effect of killing things).

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I only read the first few pages. I am looking forward to this. The lose of powers is not biggie - granted only losing two instead of three would have been better. But when you think about it, those extra two or three powers are usually a second passive, and a couple of other powers you use when switching roles. I see it this way:

Pros:
Well defined AT
Clearly defined roles
Reason to team
Reason to buy add ons and upgrades from C-Store*
Good AT's that are availably to Silver accounts

Cons:
Restricted to those AT without gold account
Restricted to one role (Would be nice to be able to swap between neutral, and buff build, e.g., The Savage switching between Guardian and Brawler)
Some missions maybe hard to solo without support/DPS/Tank
No flexibility in the builds*


* This could be the reason the game takes off and makes money. For example, I will have 6 silver AT (maybe a gold AT), and will buy, at minimum, one bag slot per toon. And once more powerful buff/debuff are sold in the store, people will buy those to - including me. Down side of that, since Gold accounts are getting a stipend, prices maybe too high on certain items.
* Having some flexibilty as we level would be nice, for example, I like to grab my shield early in my build.

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I only read the first few pages. I am looking forward to this. The lose of powers is not biggie - granted only losing two instead of three would have been better. But when you think about it, those extra two or three powers are usually a second passive, and a couple of other powers you use when switching roles. I see it this way:

Pros:
Well defined AT
Clearly defined roles
Reason to team
Reason to buy add ons and upgrades from C-Store*
Good AT's that are availably to Silver accounts

Cons:
Restricted to those AT without gold account
Restricted to one role (Would be nice to be able to swap between neutral, and buff build, e.g., The Savage switching between Guardian and Brawler)
Some missions maybe hard to solo without support/DPS/Tank
No flexibility in the builds*


* This could be the reason the game takes off and makes money. For example, I will have 6 silver AT (maybe a gold AT), and will buy, at minimum, one bag slot per toon. And once more powerful buff/debuff are sold in the store, people will buy those to - including me. Down side of that, since Gold accounts are getting a stipend, prices maybe too high on certain items.
* Having some flexibilty as we level would be nice, for example, I like to grab my shield early in my build.

I think you all keep missing the point of this F2P model.

They want players to WANT to buy the full game.

F2P is set up so people can experience the core gameplay without paying.

They don't want players to just stick with the F2P model the whole time...they want them to buy the full game.

If you give the F2P model everything...then no one would buy the full game.

I think the ATs are perfect for the F2P model.

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I understand part of why Cryptic is using this as their f2p model--they need *something* that's more limited than free-form as incentive to go Gold, *and* they're catering to the 'Math is Hard!' people from CoX and other MMOs who go brain-dead at the idea of actual *choice*. Kinda makes me ill that people are so used to being spoon-fed concepts instead of thinking for themselves that they somehow think this is 'what should have been done in the first place', though. :-/
Um, how are you doing the math in CO when the descriptions are filled with vague information like "Only applies in certain circumstances"?

Last I checked, that's not math. That's not even information.

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.

Hahaha....classic.

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.

Why are you here? GO AWAY! And save everyone a couple extra bytes of load time.

Thanx!

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.

Doom, bla bla bla, Doom yada yada yada... :)

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Comments on the Archetypes:

1) Inferno: fire form but no SS Presence; 4 AoE's? (5 if you count Flashfire); serious redundancy.

2) Soldier: why Targeting Computer over Quarry?

3) Blade: fighting to level 17 with Reaper's Caress for main damage... really? Waiting until 32 to get Dragon's Bite... 32?

4) Savage: Regen but no SS rec...

5) Behemoth: so I'd be defeating things with Defensive Combo until I get to Demolish at level 27; or am I expected to Hurl (which is what I felt like doing when I saw the AT's)

6) Glacier: Invulnerability w/out ss STR...

7) Mind: Mystic Aura passive (even if it is the good one); why not Seraphim with its more generic glow rather than mystic sigils? The only thing that made telepathy work imo is Ego Storm, which is absent form the build

8) Grimoire: Give the Mind Seraphim and put Radiant Aura over here; Pillar of Poz? (I'm guessing either a Vengeance/Condemn clone or a new one Sigil sigil power)

In general, too much imbalance as to when the various AT's get T2 powers (i.e., Pyre at 17 for Inferno and Dragon's Bite at 32 for the Blade). Also, while the AT's all have passives and block enhancers, some lack heals and AoE, the other components of what the community has come to recognize as the components of effective builds.

Guaranteed that some (if not many) new silvers will be cursing their computers with some (if not most) of the AT's.

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Guaranteed that some (if not many) new silvers will be cursing their computers with some (if not most) of the AT's.

Frankly, this is the issue I expect that'll hurt CO the most with the F2P model. Especially when they come visit the forums and see all the Gold members saying what utter bunk these builds are, and just how poorly designed these things are.

Will that make them want to subscribe? Personally, I think it'll cause them to leave and tell their friends how bad it is.

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No.. The primary advantage of heal powers is having a self-heal that you can pop off more frequently, has no limited number of charges and doesn't cost you anything (resources/acclaim) to use.

Maybe I'm just cheap, but if I played a silver age char and used a C-Store bought heal, I'd be thinking to myself, every time I pushed the button "Well, that's another 50 cents. Be cheaper to just die and run back"

Heh. Actually...the craftable heals are dirt cheap in terms of 'resources' (as opposed to Resources)--just from normal component pickups I have enough to craft a couple of *hundred* of the large-size ones at this point on my level 40 Arms character. The Vendor ones, presuming that you're not clueless enough to not know they're there...are actually an even balance with the powers, from the looks of things: They're strong in terms of immediate damage healed (though as I said I haven't played Celestial--given that IIRC their tier 0 powers have healing as a side effect, heal devices may indeed be redundant), but the cooldown delay is fairly long in comparison to something like the Reiki (as it stands, I use both on Dark Shadow--Reiki for when I can afford slow recovery, the craftable when I need a major heal Right Now.) As far as the C-store heals...I'm pretty much right with you, there. I'd much rather use something acquireable in-game than something I have to pay actual $$$ for--I'd rather use my money on *permanant* improvements, like the costume sets, AFs (well, as much as a vanity pet that isn't used often can be called an improvement. ;-) ), and account improvements. (Hmm...that does make me wonder, actually--if a Gold player has unlocked costume parts from Adventure packs/perks and then drops to Silver, do they still get to use them without getting the AP they're associated with?)

On a different but related topic--a question to those complaining about useless powers in the archetype builds: does the Beta *also* include the rebalancing of powers they've been talking about, or are these builds only using the *current* powers? I'm wondering, because the cleanup/rebalancing might make those useless powers actually be of use, making the complaints moot. :-/

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Maybe they should have asked the community to design archetypes with some sort of suitable RE-ward. :rolleyes:

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The purpose of beta is to give us feedback about this stuff so we can make it better. Our goal is not to make broken/unfun builds. Help us out, and tell us what you think.

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I think people need to understand that the purpose of beta is to tune these ATs. Therefore, I don't see the need to be so fatalist at this point.

I would love to have the complete information about the new or cloned powers to be able to give a better feedback. A principle on the reasoning in making the ATs could help too. Let's remember that the goals of ATs might not be exactly what we have in mind, so the power arrangement could obey some other goal than just been a leveling machine.

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.You praise DCUO for having no filler content when you have never played it, and you bash CO and tell them to shut the game down with criticism based on builds you have never tried when there are powers and changes you have never experienced...

And you wonder why I feel the need to set the record straight? lol.

Words of Advice to everyone:

Please take anything and everything in regards to these builds as NON PERMANENT and subject to change as they have stated over and over. Also, wait to give negative/non constructive feedback until we know exactly what powers are being changed and how that will affect the builds.

Again, this is just advice. I expect no one to heed it as you can do what you want. If you want to actually contribute however, this advice might help. Thanks.

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The purpose of beta is to give us feedback about this stuff so we can make it better. Our goal is not to make broken/unfun builds. Help us out, and tell us what you think.

Would love to. When the invite shows up in my mail box I'll get right on that.

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.

See, that used to work. People uses to take stuff like that seriously. Then we saw APB: that's what a game looks like when it fails. This one? Not so much.

Now come on, we all know you can do better than that. lol:p

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The purpose of beta is to give us feedback about this stuff so we can make it better. Our goal is not to make broken/unfun builds. Help us out, and tell us what you think.

Send me a beta invite and I'll get right to testing. Heck, even a link to the full patch notes would be a step in the right direction.

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The purpose of beta is to give us feedback about this stuff so we can make it better. Our goal is not to make broken/unfun builds. Help us out, and tell us what you think.

I recommend the Dev's check out Willblack's sticky in Combat and Powers. Just because they are Silver, doesn't mean their builds HAVE to be gimped.

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I recommend the Dev's check out Willblack's sticky in Combat and Powers. Just because they are Silver, doesn't mean their builds HAVE to be gimped.
The big problem with a lot of those builds is that they have too many attack powers. The fact is, it's only worth having one or two (single target, area) spammable direct damage attack powers. Everything else wants to be powers you only want to use intermittently -- generally, powers on cooldown, powers that apply a non-stackable buff or debuff, powers that are situational or are primarily for non-damage purposes.

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The big problem with a lot of those builds is that they have too many attack powers. The fact is, it's only worth having one or two (single target, area) spammable direct damage attack powers. Everything else wants to be powers you only want to use intermittently -- generally, powers on cooldown, powers that apply a non-stackable buff or debuff, powers that are situational or are primarily for non-damage purposes.

They either have too many or not enough, or just very poor progression.

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Anyway, I'll give my advice:

Shut the game down. This doesn't have a snowball's chance in heck of attracting new players. You are just killing your company's reputation with this garbage.

DOOOOOMMMMMM!!!!!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMSHvgaUWc8)

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The purpose of beta is to give us feedback about this stuff so we can make it better. Our goal is not to make broken/unfun builds. Help us out, and tell us what you think.

So help us out, start tossing invite codes our way :cool:

The big problem with a lot of those builds is that they have too many attack powers. The fact is, it's only worth having one or two (single target, area) spammable direct damage attack powers. Everything else wants to be powers you only want to use intermittently -- generally, powers on cooldown, powers that apply a non-stackable buff or debuff, powers that are situational or are primarily for non-damage purposes.

From a pure mechanical optimization standpoint, yes, but from a pure mechanical optimization standpoint - subscribe! A little attack redundancy in the attacky builds (especially if they aren't totally redundant, with slightly different or synergistic effects) gives a visceral impression of variety even when it's not really there mechanically. I think that would help leave a positive impression.

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Sorry, I have no codes to toss, and no patchnotes to post. You'll just have to wait your turn.

As for ATs, we definitely don't want people to feel gimped. But we also don't want them to be FotM Ubertastic either. We want people playing an AT character (whether silver or gold) to be able to get in, start playing, without having to fuss with minutia, and start having fun more quickly.

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A little attack redundancy in the attacky builds (especially if they aren't totally redundant, with slightly different or synergistic effects) gives a visceral impression of variety even when it's not really there mechanically. I think that would help leave a positive impression.
If you find yourself in a situation of 'well, now that I have power Y, I will never again use power X', something is off.

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The more I think about it, the more I think it would just be simpler for all involved if the Archetypes got the same number of powers, at the same rate, as the freeform characters. The only difference would be that Archetypes are locked in to their selections.

The perception is more important than the reality. If people look at that progression and see fewer powers (particularly, being stuck with relatively few attacks early on) they are going to see an inferior game-play experience and I don't think that's the impression we want. I think you want the Archetype player's choices to be severely limited, not their overall build strength.

-- 77IM