Consider Bronze/Silver/Gold

[Archived Post]

I am one of the lucky original Lifetime subscriber, but for the past 6 months I have not really played Champions and have been playing D&D Online since it went F2P.

I did however greatly enjoy my time in Champions and many of my gaming friends are excited to try out Champions once it goes F2P.

I would however make the following suggestions...

1) Bronze/Silver/Gold
Currently it appears the plan is to have a two tiered system Silver/Gold, in the Silver system you seem to be highly highly limited which in my opinion doesn't actually encourage the purchase of Gold membership or other purchasables.
I would suggest a Bronze/Silver/Gold system which would be along the following lines:

a) Bronze: Similar to current Silver with following changes
i) lowest priority login
ii) no super-group creation
iii) no access to test server
iii) can only send/receive mail from friends limited to 20 slots

b) Silver: Upon the purchase of say $15 of Cryptic points your account becomes upgraded to a Silver plan. The Silver plan would give the account the following benefits.
i) 4 Character Slots
ii) 2 inventory bag slots
iii) 10 Market House Lots
iv) unrestricted chat
v) purchasable super-group creation
vi) can send/receive mail from anyone but limited to 40 slots
vii) full forum access
viii) access to test server
ix) higher priority login then Bronze
x) free e-mail and forum support
xi) for every $100 of Cryptic points purchased get some perk (ie. one free Custom archetype char slot)

c) Gold: same as current except...
i) increase Market House Lots to 20

2) Allow purchasable Custom Archetypes

3) for the release of F2P allow the purchase of the lifetime membership. Most of the people that want these are the players that have been supporting you all these past months despite all the negativity surrounding Champions Online.

Remember the goal of F2P is to make players feel value for there dollars, and not to make them feel like they are being nickel and dimed.

Having been playing DDO for the past 6 months and sinking over $400 between my wife's and my account in that game, I have been saying the CO is the perfect candidate for F2P. I hope it works out. But consider the suggestions above...

Cheers and Good Luck with the F2P release...

[Archived Post]

http://everquest2.com/_themes/default/images/extended/membershipMatrix.jpg

There's the link to the new Everquest 2's Free to play program. Ever since incorperating it, EQ2 has had a HUGE population increase. If Cryptic can replicate theirs to some degree, Champions would probably get a boost too :D

Notice how there's 2 "free" models. One is truly free (Bronze), the other (Silver) is a significant amount better, but $10 One-Time fee, then free forever. It's really a good F2P model.

[Archived Post]

We've kept the number plans down to two so that it's clear about what you get. I go cross-eyed trying to figure out plans from other games. One has like eight tiers!
Honestly it should just stay as it is, silver and gold to keep things simple and not so confusing on who gets what and who doesn't get what. No real reason to complicate things imho.

[Archived Post]

The poz quote, plus the following.

Purchaseable unlock to unlock custom Archetypes? Look in the Power Tinting thread, which has a discussion on some options for this. Nutshell: Either make it impossible to retcon a custom on a Silver account without a CStore item, and unlock on a per character basis, or this is a bad idea. Total customisation is the main reason to sub. Take it away, and there isn't much left if everybody can unlock it and then play without needing to sink another penny into the game.

Re-offer Lifetimes? Look for my posts in the thread about Lifetimes. My attempts at explaining the lack of a Lifetime offer are there on the later pages. Nushell: No, they would very likely go broke if they did, because then most people would not be on the F2P and subscription models.

Cryptic needs to make money. No matter how much they enjoy the fact that we enjoy their game, it's still a business. If #2 and #3 were done, then the company actually makes less money. Especially by re-offering Lifetimes. It was originally to fill a budget deficit. They aren't as strapped for money now and bringing back the Lifetimes would be not financially advantageous to the CO branch of Cryptic even though income is pretty much shared with STO. Just because STO does it, it's still not in their best interest to do it here because CO has a smaller playerbase.

[Archived Post]

I'm liking the idea of simply unlocking social functions after money has been paid in some form. Supergroups, zone chat, etc. It seems like an effective way to help curb spammers and griefers and the like. Dont' necessarily need a third tier or type though, but I suppose it could be added as a way of distinguishing things.

[Archived Post]

Jesus, the EQII matrix is ridiculous. I like the sound of two plans.

K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. Great advice, hurts my feelings every time.

[Archived Post]

Cryptic needs money, if re-offering lifetimes for one week during the F2P launch causes them to go broke, then they are doomed to failure. Re-offering lifetimes solidifies a base user group that will be playing all the content, and brings in a quick large cash influx that can be put to good use. You can make way more money with $250 today invested properly then twice that paid out over 3 years. That group then will want to bring friends to the game, easy to do when its F2P.

After the new players fire up their accounts and start to enjoy it you want them to spend money. Enticing them with a 'bonus' for spending a small amount leaves them feeling good about their purchase, about the whole business model and makes them feel like Cryptic is actually striving to provide value for their gaming dollars.

The current 2 tier is so limited on the F2P, and doesn't feel enticing at all. I know dozens of players that are currently playing LOTRO and DDO, most likely the two most successful 'A' class western world MMOs that went F2P. Many of the said players started by saying, look how much I get by just spending a small amount, so they did. Then never looked back and kept spending.

Cryptic doesn't just want players back it wants new players that have never played before and a majority of those players would be F2P so if you want them to spend money you need to convince them of it. In the real world marketing is complex and confusing and often times doesn't make sense, its how its presented to a prospective buyer that needs to be simple. I can tell you right now the two tier system is nothing more then a extended basic trial and I don't see it as succeeding because it doesn't appear to encourage the spending of money, it tries to be so limited that it makes me feel I need to pay $15/mnth to do anything.

Of course until the full system is released these are just gut feelings... but after being successful for 30 years and counting with my business I have learned to trust that gut feeling. And right now my gut says the Silver appears too limited.

[Archived Post]

One last quick note...

About two-thirds of the players I know in DDO, don't play all the time. When they subbed many bought $50 worth of store credits. They being regular gamers, pumped through most content pretty quick, and at around 1 month period were getting to the point they wanted more, they at that point were getting low on store points. But more wasn't available yet. They went to a different game played for a bit, then during the next content release (In DDO they are averaging a release every 2-3 months), came back. They jumped in liked what they saw and bought $25 more points, they didn't need as much because they already bought certain one time feature character features. They again played for a bit over a month, then left. Those players have recently come back again for the recent release, and Haloween festival fun. Guess what many bought more store points.

So these pleyers only played in game for maybe 3 months in a 6 month period. But they spent just as much as a subscribtion. When you are paying a subscrition you feel compelled to login often, if you are a regular gamer most likely almost everyday. Those players in DDO spent the money because they felt value, and rational person might look at the players and think "why don't you go subscribtion?" the answer is phycology. Whether value was there or not doesn't matter, they 'felt' value. The feeling of subbing and feeling 'forced' to play, compared to 'come back whenever you please,' the F2P model can work because gaming companies are capitalizing on how people feel and think.

Cheers

[Archived Post]

I can tell you right now the two tier system is nothing more then a extended basic trial and I don't see it as succeeding because it doesn't appear to encourage the spending of money, it tries to be so limited that it makes me feel I need to pay $15/mnth to do anything.

Yeah this is my feeling too, it's like Cryptic are hung up on getting new customers to subscribe, rather than getting them to pay whatever money they can for whatever they really enjoy doing in the game. This latter seems to be the real trick with this current crop of f2p Western MMO business practices, it's how you extract huge amounts of money in the aggregate by extracting tiny amounts of money from lots of people who would never subscribe anyway.

I still think the system as described would be good for CO and Cryptic, but I can't help thinking they might be able to do it even better.

[Archived Post]

I'm liking the idea of simply unlocking social functions after money has been paid in some form. Supergroups, zone chat, etc. It seems like an effective way to help curb spammers and griefers and the like. Dont' necessarily need a third tier or type though, but I suppose it could be added as a way of distinguishing things.

We may do this. We currently say that they unlock after 20 hours, but it may become more stringent depending on the spam magnitude.

I've seen many here say that we're shooting ourselves in the foot because non-subscribers can't play custom characters. Other games don't do this, so why should Champs? We have several reasons, but the main one for me is that Champs doesn't lend itself to having the same kinds of things in the store. We aren't mainly a loot-based game. Most other games sell an incredible amount of potions and loot. They sell mounts. They sell all manner of things that Champions sort of has intrinsically. I didn't want to sell the ability to travel with a superpower. I didn't want to change the game so that the main way to heal is with potions. I feel like doing those kinds things would make the game lose its superheroic-ness. So, we came up with what you see in the matrix and FAQ. I think it does a good job of letting anyone feel like a superhero (even if they don't pay us anything), which was a major goal of mine.

[Archived Post]

We may do this. We currently say that they unlock after 20 hours, but it may become more stringent depending on the spam magnitude.

I've seen many here say that we're shooting ourselves in the foot because non-subscribers can't play custom characters. Other games don't do this, so why should Champs? We have several reasons, but the main one for me is that Champs doesn't lend itself to having the same kinds of things in the store. We aren't mainly a loot-based game. Most other games sell an incredible amount of potions and loot. They sell mounts. They sell all manner of things that Champions sort of has intrinsically. I didn't want to sell the ability to travel with a superpower. I didn't want to change the game so that the main way to heal is with potions. I feel like doing those kinds things would make the game lose its superheroic-ness. So, we came up with what you see in the matrix and FAQ. I think it does a good job of letting anyone feel like a superhero (even if they don't pay us anything), which was a major goal of mine.

As far as I'm concerned, you guys nailed it. Restricting anything you mentioned would have been an awful idea. Seems like a fair compromise to me.

[Archived Post]

As far as I'm concerned, you guys nailed it. Restricting anything you mentioned would have been an awful idea. Seems like a fair compromise to me.

Same to me.

[Archived Post]

As far as I'm concerned, you guys nailed it. Restricting anything you mentioned would have been an awful idea. Seems like a fair compromise to me.

Agreed.

There are some other things that could be added to the pay for list on F2P accounts though.

Eg in LOTRO, there are no auction slots available for F2P until you pay to have some, also there is a maximum currency amount that a character can hold (5 gold) until you pay once to remove the restriction.

Philosophically you can look at F2P in two ways. Either it is a feeder mechanism to generate new subs, or it is an alternate payment system. I suspect that an alternate payment system will generate more revenue in the long run. An alternate payment system would require that there be nothing that can not be unlocked for F2P accounts by making an appropriate payment.

Food for thought.

[Archived Post]

Agreed.

There are some other things that could be added to the pay for list on F2P accounts though.

Eg in LOTRO, there are no auction slots available for F2P until you pay to have some, also there is a maximum currency amount that a character can hold (5 gold) until you pay once to remove the restriction.

Philosophically you can look at F2P in two ways. Either it is a feeder mechanism to generate new subs, or it is an alternate payment system. I suspect that an alternate payment system will generate more revenue in the long run. An alternate payment system would require that there be nothing that can not be unlocked for F2P accounts by making an appropriate payment.

Food for thought.

Pretty much.
Choosing the first way will definitely exclude a great number of players that will never, ever subscribe but are rather interested in the sporadic payment system.

Poz argument does make sense and I could see how a superhero game might differ from the other games (Mostly Fantasy RPGs) that's gone FTP so I guess we'll just have to wait and see - my guess is that they'll eventually switch over to a gold/silver/bronze system once the C-store has enough game content and non-costume products to support an alternative payment system.

[Archived Post]

Honestly it should just stay as it is, silver and gold to keep things simple and not so confusing on who gets what and who doesn't get what. No real reason to complicate things imho.Why is it that most of the negative comments I see regarding what non-Gold members should and should not get are made by Lifers, who have no horse in the race? It's as if you want to keep the chasm between yourself and the great unwashed masses as wide as possible. Why no middle ground for current subbers?

I hate to use the word, but it really smacks of "elitism". This is a computer game, folks, not a country club.

[Archived Post]

Why is it that most of the negative comments I see regarding what non-Gold members should and should not get are made by Lifers, who have no horse in the race? It's as if you want to keep the chasm between yourself and the great unwashed masses as wide as possible. Why no middle ground for current subbers?

I hate to use the word, but it really smacks of "elitism". This is a computer game, folks, not a country club.

You seem to be making things up.

Also that comment you quoted had nothing to do with "keeping things" from people.

[Archived Post]

Why is it that most of the negative comments I see regarding what non-Gold members should and should not get are made by Lifers, who have no horse in the race? It's as if you want to keep the chasm between yourself and the great unwashed masses as wide as possible. Why no middle ground for current subbers?

I hate to use the word, but it really smacks of "elitism". This is a computer game, folks, not a country club.

Why don't you stop putting words into my mouth? i never said anything about wanting to keep the "chasm" as wide as possible, or keep anything at all from people.

[Archived Post]

We may do this. We currently say that they unlock after 20 hours, but it may become more stringent depending on the spam magnitude.

I've seen many here say that we're shooting ourselves in the foot because non-subscribers can't play custom characters. Other games don't do this, so why should Champs? We have several reasons, but the main one for me is that Champs doesn't lend itself to having the same kinds of things in the store. We aren't mainly a loot-based game. Most other games sell an incredible amount of potions and loot. They sell mounts. They sell all manner of things that Champions sort of has intrinsically. I didn't want to sell the ability to travel with a superpower. I didn't want to change the game so that the main way to heal is with potions. I feel like doing those kinds things would make the game lose its superheroic-ness. So, we came up with what you see in the matrix and FAQ. I think it does a good job of letting anyone feel like a superhero (even if they don't pay us anything), which was a major goal of mine.

My opinion may count for jack-all, but seriously when I read the details on how you guys proposed the free-to-play deal, I was so excited that I'm anxious to create a silver account in addition to the one I have now. In my opinion, the people who are saying that you're shooting yourself in the foot are speaking prematurely, or just want the benefits of a paid subscription for free.

The fact that I'm so looking forward to trying out the free-to-play aspect of the game should say something about how well it's being implemented.

You put a great perspective on things when it comes to selling healing and travel. Leaving those things in for Silver players is awesome. I think what you guys are doing makes a heap of sense. Thumbs up, and cheers.

[Archived Post]

Why don't you stop putting words into my mouth? i never said anything about wanting to keep the "chasm" as wide as possible, or keep anything at all from people.The OP is making a suggestion regarding how to offer a little more to current monthly subscribers in the new F2P model and you're shooting it down. Your response says that you feel past and present investors in this game shouldn't get the modest perks proposed in the modified Silver plan.

What else would you call that?

As a Lifer, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?

Are you starting to understand how Lifers' resistance to these suggestions could be viewed in this way?

[Archived Post]

How it CAN be viewed that way? I have no trouble believing that somewhat... unintelligent or completely thoughtless people can misunderstand things any way they choose. Now... Whether that interpretation makes any sense or has any bearing in reality is another question.

[Archived Post]

The OP is making a suggestion regarding how to offer a little more to current monthly subscribers in the new F2P model and you're shooting it down. Your response says that you feel past and present investors in this game shouldn't get the modest perks proposed in the modified Silver plan.

What else would you call that?

As a Lifer, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?

Are you starting to understand how Lifers' resistance to these suggestions could be viewed in this way?

Eh you see what you want to see, even when there is nothing to see. :rolleyes:

[Archived Post]

What I was suggesting has already been successfully implemented by the only Western MMO that is even remotely close to Champions and that is DDO. The genre may be different but both are games were designed to fill a niche part of the market. Both are more geared for small groups, lots of instanced dungeons, many character build options, and fit well with the add a little here and there and charge for it.

Now that game was revived from near non-existent to in excess of a million accounts.

Lets keep a few things in mind then play out some scenarios... intelligently

a) Champions will never be able to compete with the big guns in the MMO world with regards to subs... ever
b) Comic books have been on the downhill slide for many years now, its just not in atm (this can be a good thing as the players that remember the good 'ol days of comic books are at ages where they have excess money to spend)
c) Champions is a very fun game, all my gaming friends that I convinced to play did have fun... for a short time
d) From my experiences in MMO games, players typically don't like having multiple subs to multiple games
e) Everyday gamers usually play more then one game, but usually only one main MMO
f) Everyday gamers usually take breaks from their main MMO to play other games (eg. Starcraft, CoD, Fallout 3, etc.)
g) There are tens of millions of MMO gamers
h) Cryptic doesn't have the financial backing or income to put out hundreds of millions on the game, yet...

Scenario 1) Cryptic implements a Bronze/Silver/Gold system and allows purchase of everything a paying subscriber would get (eg. $15/custom char upgrade, $10 Gold travel powers, $10 a gold powerset, $3-8 per dungeon, $5 additional inventory, $10-15 repecs, you get the idea)

So the new year arrives and Champions F2P comes out, a few of the gamers I typically play with are bored of Cataclysm, God-slayer, etc., and decided to create a F2P account to play with me. Everyone is having fun, a few days go by and they notice my really cool mix and match custom themed toon. They inquire how to get one, I say they can sub or buy a custom character upgrade.
They happily buy $25 of Cryptic points, knowing they get a free upgrade to 'Silver' status since they are now a paying customer, this only makes them happier about the purchase. They buy a single custom character upgrade, and a day later buy the Gold Travel Powers, followed by an encounter/dungeon. So 1 Week of play has gone by and these players have already HAPPILY dropped $25 on Champions. So a few more weeks goes by, they are feeling a bit bored, and and getting requests by other guildies to come back and Raid/PVP/etc in their main MMO. They leave still remembering a good experience with Champions. Few months go by they are getting bored so they need a break, and guess what their kick-ass custom Champions character is all prepped to go, on top of this Cryptic has added a few new free content areas with a whole bunch more paid encounters. So the small group comes back, but this time convinced a few more to join them, what do they have to lose its free to start. So the old players drop another $25-$50 on Cryptic points, buy some cool new costumes, a few more encounter ares, and the new players are enticed and they start buying into the game as well. Again they will probably play for maybe a month, then head back to their respective main games. Always leaving with a positive experience and knowing Champions will be waiting, gaining content and more stuff while they are away, not costing them a dime. Players always remember they are subbed paying $15/mnth buy they tend not to remember the $25-$50 they choose to put out to get things they want.

End result, many new accounts created, >$25/new account revenue, players continually coming back and always having a positive gaming experience in Champions. They wanted a fun occasional game, and got exactly what they wanted.

Scenario 2) They go live with the current proposed system. No custom characters unless subbed, extremely limited in all options unless subbed, etc.

Same situation a few gamer friends decide to check out Champions with me when it goes F2P. I am of course on my sweet themed custom toon. They are on the F2P silver archetypes. They inquire about my powers, I explain that they should sub so they can get them to since it is so fun. Its a tough sell but one person decided to. A week goes by, and while everyone is still having some fun they feel sorta bummed about not being able to create their own cool character. As they are still subbed in their main MMO and never had any intention of leaving that MMO they still don't sub. A month goes by the person that subbed cancels their account. They are headed back to their main MMO, the other players that tried it out bought a encounter or two, but were still bummed about not being able to create their superhero. A few months goes by, and guess what they don't come back to Champions.

End result, a few new accounts made but largely abandoned, <$10/new account revenue, players not really coming back as they left with a neutral feeling. They wanted a fun occasional game instead they found another MMO that wanted to replace their main one.


Now clearly the game hasn't gone F2P yet, but we do know:
i) Champions couldn't compete with the bigger MMOs for subscriptions
ii) Most players that did try it all said they had fun
iii) The most praised part of Champions was its customization options

Cryptic need to capitalize on the fun factor, and be happy playing the fun fall back game for everyone. These gamers will pay $20-$80 for new games every time they go on break from their main MMOs, give them some fun and that money is all yours, try to convince them to sub by limiting them and they will spend elsewhere.

People will get what they want out of this, but one of the things I've always liked about Cryptic is I know for certain a dev will read this. I am not proposing more for free, I am proposing to make the game have a real viable new payment option that doesn't involve a subscription. Don't forget that a player paying for the options is no different then a subbed account so why limit they buying options.

Cheers

[Archived Post]

As far as I'm concerned, you guys nailed it. Restricting anything you mentioned would have been an awful idea. Seems like a fair compromise to me.

agreed stay with what you have now.

[Archived Post]

Eh you see what you want to see, even when there is nothing to see. :rolleyes:Then give me and everyone else something to see by answering the question instead of dodging it.

As a Lifer, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?

[Archived Post]

We may do this. We currently say that they unlock after 20 hours, but it may become more stringent depending on the spam magnitude.

I've seen many here say that we're shooting ourselves in the foot because non-subscribers can't play custom characters. Other games don't do this, so why should Champs? We have several reasons, but the main one for me is that Champs doesn't lend itself to having the same kinds of things in the store. We aren't mainly a loot-based game. Most other games sell an incredible amount of potions and loot. They sell mounts. They sell all manner of things that Champions sort of has intrinsically. I didn't want to sell the ability to travel with a superpower. I didn't want to change the game so that the main way to heal is with potions. I feel like doing those kinds things would make the game lose its superheroic-ness. So, we came up with what you see in the matrix and FAQ. I think it does a good job of letting anyone feel like a superhero (even if they don't pay us anything), which was a major goal of mine.


I still believe you should rethink this idea regarding the custom archetypes.

Speaking for myself, I've unsubscribed Champions a few times already. Got away, played a few other games... and the only thing that brought me back to Champions was the ability to create my own hero, instead of using someone else's idea.

Whe I saw the F2P launch, I was happy about bringing my friends along. But let's face it - most of them play wow, and they won't subscribe to another game. They simply won't.

And Champions with a class-based system is a less-than-average game, period.

----


I think you should sell Custom Class Unlocks at the C-Store.

To compensate, you could forever refrain from giving free retcons to silver players (even after major balance patches).

Maybe create a minor c-point fee like 15 cryptic points per power for partial retcons.

Hell, you could even lock regular ingame retcons and leave silver players only with paid full retcons.

Whatever you do... you can find alternate ways of revenue. But do not lock players away from custom classes. You'll be ruining a big part of their game experience.

[Archived Post]

The OP is making a suggestion regarding how to offer a little more to current monthly subscribers in the new F2P model and you're shooting it down. Your response says that you feel past and present investors in this game shouldn't get the modest perks proposed in the modified Silver plan.

What else would you call that?

As a Lifer, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?

Are you starting to understand how Lifers' resistance to these suggestions could be viewed in this way?

Then give me and everyone else something to see by answering the question instead of dodging it.

As a Lifer, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?


Honestly it should just stay as it is, silver and gold to keep things simple and not so confusing on who gets what and who doesn't get what. No real reason to complicate things imho.

Helbjorn, Where do you see this "elitism"? LBR gave the opinion that plans should stay simple and not overly complicated. This was a response to someone else's opinion that they should add more tiers to the current model Cryptic is planning. I didn't see any elitist remarks about how "past and present investors in this game shouldn't get the modest perks proposed in the modified Silver plan." I really think you are reading into it too much.

Before you go off and say I'm just an "elitist Lifer" I do think past and present investors in the game should get perks. I personnally think it should be in the form of Vet Rewards. I started a Thread suggesting a few modifications to the current Vet Rewards, including offering the ability to purchase the $30/3 month plan and the ability to purchase a Lifetime account, after making an initial investment in the game through paid membership.

Poz and Cryptic seem to think they are on the right track with the Gold/Silver memberships. Are they elitists too?

[Archived Post]

Then give me and everyone else something to see by answering the question instead of dodging it.

As a Lifer, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?

Why pick on lifers? as far as the scheme is concerned lifers are gold subscribers nothing more there for your question should be.

As a gold subscriber, what does it matter to you if these players are offered a middle-of-the-road package? How does that affect you in any way?

To answer that question consider this as the system is set up its clear that the intention is to get people in on the silver accounts and then tempt them to subscribe and become gold. adding a middle of the road option would reduce the number of potential golds.

Golds bring more money in which leads to more/better development and content which as a gold subscriber I look forward to.

[Archived Post]

My opinion may count for jack-all, but seriously when I read the details on how you guys proposed the free-to-play deal, I was so excited that I'm anxious to create a silver account in addition to the one I have now. In my opinion, the people who are saying that you're shooting yourself in the foot are speaking prematurely, or just want the benefits of a paid subscription for free.

The fact that I'm so looking forward to trying out the free-to-play aspect of the game should say something about how well it's being implemented.

You put a great perspective on things when it comes to selling healing and travel. Leaving those things in for Silver players is awesome. I think what you guys are doing makes a heap of sense. Thumbs up, and cheers.

This is my viewpoint as well.

Also, it's not a big deal to me if there are two, three, or twenty tiers, but I agree with LadyBloodRose, and I am not a lifer. Please don't seek ill will where none exists.

The 'anti-eltism' around here lately is much more repulsive than any elitism I have witnessed. It is baseless, ugly, and counterproductive.

[Archived Post]

What I was suggesting has already been successfully implemented by the only Western MMO that is even remotely close to Champions and that is DDO. The genre may be different but both are games were designed to fill a niche part of the market. Both are more geared for small groups, lots of instanced dungeons, many character build options, and fit well with the add a little here and there and charge for it.

Now that game was revived from near non-existent to in excess of a million accounts.

Lets keep a few things in mind then play out some scenarios... intelligently

a) Champions will never be able to compete with the big guns in the MMO world with regards to subs... ever
b) Comic books have been on the downhill slide for many years now, its just not in atm (this can be a good thing as the players that remember the good 'ol days of comic books are at ages where they have excess money to spend)
c) Champions is a very fun game, all my gaming friends that I convinced to play did have fun... for a short time
d) From my experiences in MMO games, players typically don't like having multiple subs to multiple games
e) Everyday gamers usually play more then one game, but usually only one main MMO
f) Everyday gamers usually take breaks from their main MMO to play other games (eg. Starcraft, CoD, Fallout 3, etc.)
g) There are tens of millions of MMO gamers
h) Cryptic doesn't have the financial backing or income to put out hundreds of millions on the game, yet...

Scenario 1) Cryptic implements a Bronze/Silver/Gold system and allows purchase of everything a paying subscriber would get (eg. $15/custom char upgrade, $10 Gold travel powers, $10 a gold powerset, $3-8 per dungeon, $5 additional inventory, $10-15 repecs, you get the idea)

So the new year arrives and Champions F2P comes out, a few of the gamers I typically play with are bored of Cataclysm, God-slayer, etc., and decided to create a F2P account to play with me. Everyone is having fun, a few days go by and they notice my really cool mix and match custom themed toon. They inquire how to get one, I say they can sub or buy a custom character upgrade.
They happily buy $25 of Cryptic points, knowing they get a free upgrade to 'Silver' status since they are now a paying customer, this only makes them happier about the purchase. They buy a single custom character upgrade, and a day later buy the Gold Travel Powers, followed by an encounter/dungeon. So 1 Week of play has gone by and these players have already HAPPILY dropped $25 on Champions. So a few more weeks goes by, they are feeling a bit bored, and and getting requests by other guildies to come back and Raid/PVP/etc in their main MMO. They leave still remembering a good experience with Champions. Few months go by they are getting bored so they need a break, and guess what their kick-ass custom Champions character is all prepped to go, on top of this Cryptic has added a few new free content areas with a whole bunch more paid encounters. So the small group comes back, but this time convinced a few more to join them, what do they have to lose its free to start. So the old players drop another $25-$50 on Cryptic points, buy some cool new costumes, a few more encounter ares, and the new players are enticed and they start buying into the game as well. Again they will probably play for maybe a month, then head back to their respective main games. Always leaving with a positive experience and knowing Champions will be waiting, gaining content and more stuff while they are away, not costing them a dime. Players always remember they are subbed paying $15/mnth buy they tend not to remember the $25-$50 they choose to put out to get things they want.

End result, many new accounts created, >$25/new account revenue, players continually coming back and always having a positive gaming experience in Champions. They wanted a fun occasional game, and got exactly what they wanted.

Scenario 2) They go live with the current proposed system. No custom characters unless subbed, extremely limited in all options unless subbed, etc.

Same situation a few gamer friends decide to check out Champions with me when it goes F2P. I am of course on my sweet themed custom toon. They are on the F2P silver archetypes. They inquire about my powers, I explain that they should sub so they can get them to since it is so fun. Its a tough sell but one person decided to. A week goes by, and while everyone is still having some fun they feel sorta bummed about not being able to create their own cool character. As they are still subbed in their main MMO and never had any intention of leaving that MMO they still don't sub. A month goes by the person that subbed cancels their account. They are headed back to their main MMO, the other players that tried it out bought a encounter or two, but were still bummed about not being able to create their superhero. A few months goes by, and guess what they don't come back to Champions.

End result, a few new accounts made but largely abandoned, <$10/new account revenue, players not really coming back as they left with a neutral feeling. They wanted a fun occasional game instead they found another MMO that wanted to replace their main one.


Now clearly the game hasn't gone F2P yet, but we do know:
i) Champions couldn't compete with the bigger MMOs for subscriptions
ii) Most players that did try it all said they had fun
iii) The most praised part of Champions was its customization options

Cryptic need to capitalize on the fun factor, and be happy playing the fun fall back game for everyone. These gamers will pay $20-$80 for new games every time they go on break from their main MMOs, give them some fun and that money is all yours, try to convince them to sub by limiting them and they will spend elsewhere.

People will get what they want out of this, but one of the things I've always liked about Cryptic is I know for certain a dev will read this. I am not proposing more for free, I am proposing to make the game have a real viable new payment option that doesn't involve a subscription. Don't forget that a player paying for the options is no different then a subbed account so why limit they buying options.

Cheers

/signed

Let me just add that Cryptic might not have enough "game content" for sale to benefit from going with a DDO styled system. In DDO you're looking at $100-120 to buy all the quests, races, classes and game upgrades - which is the equivalent of subbing for a year or so. So I stand by my guess that Cryptic will just get a feel around first, and eventually add enough content to CO to dwarf the free zones - and make it a necessity if you're intent on playing more than one character without repeating content.

Now you might think that people that do spend all this upfront would then be able to ride it out for free, but the thing is that during that year or year and a half they play through all their purchased content the developer will probably have put out another $50 worth of game content.

So these hoarders intent on buying everything in a game and then playing fo "free" would essentially pay the same price as a subscriber over a set time period but would still not have the extra perks that you get as a subscriber (like more free character slots, more unlocked bagslots on all your characters, automatic access to all new game content, login queue priority, longer AFK-time before automatic logging and personal customer support).

But the majority of people would probably be happy with throwing down a couple of bucks here and there, and just buy some of the game and play it at their own pace. And the thing is that even if they would individually bring less revenue to Cryptic when compared to a subscriber over the course of a year they would most likely (based on the successful F2P games on the market) as a whole bring several times more revenue than even a doubled subscribed base would.

[Archived Post]

They can make accounts gold/silver, gold/silver/bronze, or gold/silver/bronze/tin star. The bottom line is, will this game offer something that a large number of people are willing to pay for? It is possible. On the other hand, it is possible that the silver system may be so restricted with a game lacking too much content, no real team system, or encouragement to team, and a poor PvP system, that former players may not return. When it comes to F2P MMO's, the Russians are storming and doing very well. Allods is a good F2P micro-transaction MMO with the same format as this and WoW - almost all open world but a somewhat fair level playing field with characters. WoT, still in beta, is a micro-transaction MMO that is all PvP, and the best PvP system my friends* and I seen in a long time (simple kill all or capture flag with one life). (In the case of WoT, I will be using their store.) What is CO going to offer me to get my money? Maybe this "F2P" system will do it, because this game lacks way too much for me to start pumping money into it again - especially when I have to put up with elite attitudes saying if I don't pay then I have no say.

Friends whom I have played CO, STO, COX, LOTRO, Allods, WoT, and many other MMOS together

[Archived Post]

Well, I suppose that is why they will run a couple of months of BETA. They will have a better feel for how things work and what they might be able to do.

Personnaly, I am still undecided if I will re-sub to the game or not. I have a tendency of subbing to a game then not playing because I have other accounts (EvE Online & Star Trek Online to name a few).

Bottom line is, I find Champions to be a fun game. It really is IMO. I like the idea of the Silver and Gold versions of the game and I think, once through BETA, we'll have a better idea of whether or not the changes (as they are currently presented) will work or not.

I for one (since my Heroes are all low level) will probably wipe them completely and take advantage of the new storyline streamlining, change of areas and levels, etc.

Now, if I could only convince Cryptic to take my LIFETIME Sub in STO and convert it to a full Gold account in CO, I would be a happy camper.

Cheers!
Silver_&_Gold_Canuck :) (sing it like Yukon Cornelius!)

[Archived Post]

What I was suggesting has already been successfully implemented by the only Western MMO that is even remotely close to Champions and that is DDO. The genre may be different but both are games were designed to fill a niche part of the market. Both are more geared for small groups, lots of instanced dungeons, many character build options, and fit well with the add a little here and there and charge for it.

Now that game was revived from near non-existent to in excess of a million accounts.

Lets keep a few things in mind then play out some scenarios... intelligently

a) Champions will never be able to compete with the big guns in the MMO world with regards to subs... ever
b) Comic books have been on the downhill slide for many years now, its just not in atm (this can be a good thing as the players that remember the good 'ol days of comic books are at ages where they have excess money to spend)
c) Champions is a very fun game, all my gaming friends that I convinced to play did have fun... for a short time
d) From my experiences in MMO games, players typically don't like having multiple subs to multiple games
e) Everyday gamers usually play more then one game, but usually only one main MMO
f) Everyday gamers usually take breaks from their main MMO to play other games (eg. Starcraft, CoD, Fallout 3, etc.)
g) There are tens of millions of MMO gamers
h) Cryptic doesn't have the financial backing or income to put out hundreds of millions on the game, yet...

Scenario 1) Cryptic implements a Bronze/Silver/Gold system and allows purchase of everything a paying subscriber would get (eg. $15/custom char upgrade, $10 Gold travel powers, $10 a gold powerset, $3-8 per dungeon, $5 additional inventory, $10-15 repecs, you get the idea)

So the new year arrives and Champions F2P comes out, a few of the gamers I typically play with are bored of Cataclysm, God-slayer, etc., and decided to create a F2P account to play with me. Everyone is having fun, a few days go by and they notice my really cool mix and match custom themed toon. They inquire how to get one, I say they can sub or buy a custom character upgrade.
They happily buy $25 of Cryptic points, knowing they get a free upgrade to 'Silver' status since they are now a paying customer, this only makes them happier about the purchase. They buy a single custom character upgrade, and a day later buy the Gold Travel Powers, followed by an encounter/dungeon. So 1 Week of play has gone by and these players have already HAPPILY dropped $25 on Champions. So a few more weeks goes by, they are feeling a bit bored, and and getting requests by other guildies to come back and Raid/PVP/etc in their main MMO. They leave still remembering a good experience with Champions. Few months go by they are getting bored so they need a break, and guess what their kick-ass custom Champions character is all prepped to go, on top of this Cryptic has added a few new free content areas with a whole bunch more paid encounters. So the small group comes back, but this time convinced a few more to join them, what do they have to lose its free to start. So the old players drop another $25-$50 on Cryptic points, buy some cool new costumes, a few more encounter ares, and the new players are enticed and they start buying into the game as well. Again they will probably play for maybe a month, then head back to their respective main games. Always leaving with a positive experience and knowing Champions will be waiting, gaining content and more stuff while they are away, not costing them a dime. Players always remember they are subbed paying $15/mnth buy they tend not to remember the $25-$50 they choose to put out to get things they want.

End result, many new accounts created, >$25/new account revenue, players continually coming back and always having a positive gaming experience in Champions. They wanted a fun occasional game, and got exactly what they wanted.

Scenario 2) They go live with the current proposed system. No custom characters unless subbed, extremely limited in all options unless subbed, etc.

Same situation a few gamer friends decide to check out Champions with me when it goes F2P. I am of course on my sweet themed custom toon. They are on the F2P silver archetypes. They inquire about my powers, I explain that they should sub so they can get them to since it is so fun. Its a tough sell but one person decided to. A week goes by, and while everyone is still having some fun they feel sorta bummed about not being able to create their own cool character. As they are still subbed in their main MMO and never had any intention of leaving that MMO they still don't sub. A month goes by the person that subbed cancels their account. They are headed back to their main MMO, the other players that tried it out bought a encounter or two, but were still bummed about not being able to create their superhero. A few months goes by, and guess what they don't come back to Champions.

End result, a few new accounts made but largely abandoned, <$10/new account revenue, players not really coming back as they left with a neutral feeling. They wanted a fun occasional game instead they found another MMO that wanted to replace their main one.


Now clearly the game hasn't gone F2P yet, but we do know:
i) Champions couldn't compete with the bigger MMOs for subscriptions
ii) Most players that did try it all said they had fun
iii) The most praised part of Champions was its customization options

Cryptic need to capitalize on the fun factor, and be happy playing the fun fall back game for everyone. These gamers will pay $20-$80 for new games every time they go on break from their main MMOs, give them some fun and that money is all yours, try to convince them to sub by limiting them and they will spend elsewhere.

People will get what they want out of this, but one of the things I've always liked about Cryptic is I know for certain a dev will read this. I am not proposing more for free, I am proposing to make the game have a real viable new payment option that doesn't involve a subscription. Don't forget that a player paying for the options is no different then a subbed account so why limit they buying options.

Cheers

What I don't really get here is why you let your friend paying $25 for a month when they can get basically the same and more by just subscribing for 1 month. If you make the case for recurrent subscription, I would say it can be set a subscription token that cost $15 from the C-Store without being recurrent. Once your friend come back they buy another token for a month of subscription and they can enjoy another month of full features.

My scenario. I am a subscriber, I like the game but at the rate in which content is released, I could use another mmo. However, I don't want to have 2 subscription mmos. What should I do?, now I get that if I go silver I can buy a gold character and pretty much I am set for 90% of the fun of a subscription plan. Then I think oh, DCUO, CoH or Wow are cool then why not I get my gold character while paying any of the other games, for me it would be maximizing the fun.

I could agree that the word subscription can intimidate so it would be better that gold status could be obtain as tokens without calling it recurrent subscription. However, I would say selling in one time payment power customization would be a huge mistake. As I said in other it could be worked out having a reduced rate for only 1 gold slot but the benefit should last only a period of time after which it should be paid again, being fronzen or turn into a silver version of the character.

[Archived Post]

If they were considering a 3rd payment method I think something like APBs pay as you go model could work well. Pricing It could be a royal pain in the rear though.

Maybe set the basic rate at something like $2 or $3 of game play and then offer discounted rates for bulk buying time

[Archived Post]

Helbjorn, Where do you see this "elitism"? LBR gave the opinion that plans should stay simple and not overly complicated. This was a response to someone else's opinion that they should add more tiers to the current model Cryptic is planning. I didn't see any elitist remarks about how "past and present investors in this game shouldn't get the modest perks proposed in the modified Silver plan." I really think you are reading into it too much.

Before you go off and say I'm just an "elitist Lifer" I do think past and present investors in the game should get perks. I personnally think it should be in the form of Vet Rewards. I started a Thread suggesting a few modifications to the current Vet Rewards, including offering the ability to purchase the $30/3 month plan and the ability to purchase a Lifetime account, after making an initial investment in the game through paid membership.

Poz and Cryptic seem to think they are on the right track with the Gold/Silver memberships. Are they elitists too?

Thank to you, for having the ability to read something for what it is, rater then what my "attacker" is doing by putting words in my mouth and making it seem like I'm spewing elitist crap between the lines. So for that I thank you Backhand. :D

To Helbjorn, read the following sentence from the above quote:
LBR gave the opinion that plans should stay simple and not overly complicated. This was a response to someone else's opinion that they should add more tiers to the current model Cryptic is planning.
So Helbjorn. Is it starting to clue in that what I typed in the message is exactly what I typed? and NOT one of your self imposed delusional ideas of what I said?

Either way I know what i said, and know what I meant. So as the sensible adult in this argument I'm pulling out of it. I know what i said, and I know what i meant. If you still feel otherwise, well I really couldn't care any less about your Elitist, and, judgmental attitude and your false accusations.

[Archived Post]

I'm a current subscriber. I will likely stay that way even after the conversion, so all this talk about 3+ tiers of F2P goodness won't really affect my account.

What I'm not understanding, however, is why there are people who keep using this "we bought the game and subscribed but are thinking of going to silver accounts" as a justification that they should get more than the basic silver account. I'm not suggesting that is what the OP was about (didn't seem quite the same to me, anyways) but it was brought up in this thread.

So where does the line get drawn at "bought the game/subscribed" and getting additional perks? If someone bought the game when it first came out for $50 and subscribed for 4 months, should they get more perks than I, who bought the game for $20 and have subscribed for around 4 months? If someone bought the game for $6 off of Steam and subscribed for 2 months, shouldn't I get more benefits than them since I put in more money than they? I mean, if this is the route people are thinking, where do you draw the line at "I invested in the game and should get more than these F2P newbs"? You can't realistically have 100 tiers to account for every single price point of the box purchase combined with every possible combination of months subscribed.

If they add a Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum/Super-Gold-Platinum-Diamond-Awesome tier, it doesn't bother me. But at some point, the combinations just become insane and just get more confusing for prospective players.

[Archived Post]

The only thing I think thy should add is some kind of acknowledgement of those that have actually purchased a box copy (or equivalent e-retailer version) nothing huge maybe some kind of costume set or something.

[Archived Post]

The only thing I think thy should add is some kind of acknowledgement of those that have actually purchased a box copy (or equivalent e-retailer version) nothing huge maybe some kind of costume set or something.

Now this isn't a bad idea. Throw players who have actually used a retail key a bone.

Maybe a cape with a barcode . . . :D

[Archived Post]

Now this isn't a bad idea. Throw players who have actually used a retail key a bone.

Maybe a cape with a barcode . . . :D

Why just a cape full on barcode costume set. With bar code scanner pistol re-placer costume piece



Dose this count as trolling my own idea?

[Archived Post]

Why just a cape full on barcode costume set. With bar code scanner pistol re-placer costume piece



Dose this count as trolling my own idea?

One step closer to a Villains expansion...complete with prison stripes. :p

[Archived Post]

Thank to you, for having the ability to read something for what it is, rater then what my "attacker" is doing by putting words in my mouth and making it seem like I'm spewing elitist crap between the lines. So for that I thank you Backhand. :D

To Helbjorn, read the following sentence from the above quote:

So Helbjorn. Is it starting to clue in that what I typed in the message is exactly what I typed? and NOT one of your self imposed delusional ideas of what I said?

Either way I know what i said, and know what I meant. So as the sensible adult in this argument I'm pulling out of it. I know what i said, and I know what i meant. If you still feel otherwise, well I really couldn't care any less about your Elitist, and, judgmental attitude and your false accusations.

No problem. Us elitists need to stick together! ;)

[Archived Post]

What I don't really get here is why you let your friend paying $25 for a month when they can get basically the same and more by just subscribing for 1 month. If you make the case for recurrent subscription, I would say it can be set a subscription token that cost $15 from the C-Store without being recurrent. Once your friend come back they buy another token for a month of subscription and they can enjoy another month of full features.

My scenario. I am a subscriber, I like the game but at the rate in which content is released, I could use another mmo. However, I don't want to have 2 subscription mmos. What should I do?, now I get that if I go silver I can buy a gold character and pretty much I am set for 90% of the fun of a subscription plan. Then I think oh, DCUO, CoH or Wow are cool then why not I get my gold character while paying any of the other games, for me it would be maximizing the fun.

I could agree that the word subscription can intimidate so it would be better that gold status could be obtain as tokens without calling it recurrent subscription. However, I would say selling in one time payment power customization would be a huge mistake. As I said in other it could be worked out having a reduced rate for only 1 gold slot but the benefit should last only a period of time after which it should be paid again, being fronzen or turn into a silver version of the character.

The whole point of investing in a F2P game is that there is not requirement for you to "use" whatever you've bought or it'll disappear (like with subscriptions) - so trying to encourage these people into timed game experiences is pretty counter-productive in my opinion.

[Archived Post]

The whole point of investing in a F2P game is that there is not requirement for you to "use" whatever you've bought or it'll disappear (like with subscriptions) - so trying to encourage these people into timed game experiences is pretty counter-productive in my opinion.

F2P is always a bait for free players to play for some time and if they like it invest on the game on a kind of regular basis. The issue here is that different from LOTRO or DDO where their main feature are content, CO main feature are custom builds, since they are hard to divide them giving it away for one character for a low one time payment would make subscription a very bad investment. As I said in other post allowing custom builds out of subscriptions it would be the equivalent of offering a soft lifetime subscription. If Cryptic thinks that is a good idea fine, but I am not sure it would give enough revenues to make the game viable in the long run. In doing that, they might as well just drop the hybrid model and go full f2p without subscriptions.

[Archived Post]

F2P is always a bait for free players to play for some time and if they like it invest on the game on a kind of regular basis. The issue here is that different from LOTRO or DDO where their main feature are content, CO main feature are custom builds, since they are hard to divide them giving it away for one character for a low one time payment would make subscription a very bad investment. As I said in other post allowing custom builds out of subscriptions it would be the equivalent of offering a soft lifetime subscription. If Cryptic thinks that is a good idea fine, but I am not sure it would give enough revenues to make the game viable in the long run. In doing that, they might as well just drop the hybrid model and go full f2p without subscriptions.
I see your point and I agree that it is kind of like offering soft lifetime subscriptions. But I don't really see what's so bad about that since:

A) Lifetime subscriptions are great from a business sense as these players generally play less and thus become less of a server load

B) It will like you say still be a soft lifetime subscription and the players will have to spend money to get access to future power sets/archetypes/adventure packs/zones.

[Archived Post]

I see your point and I agree that it is kind of like offering soft lifetime subscriptions. But I don't really see what's so bad about that since:

A) Lifetime subscriptions are great from a business sense as these players generally play less and thus become less of a server load

B) It will like you say still be a soft lifetime subscription and the players will have to spend money to get access to future power sets/archetypes/adventure packs/zones.

Because A+B= less reliable money than either LTS or recurring sub. It makes no sense to bank your success on the generosity of players.

'Soft lifetime' would give away the majority of the game. Cryptic knows their game is inverted from the traditional model; content takes a backseat to customization here in CO.

[Archived Post]

TIs it starting to clue in that what I typed in the message is exactly what I typed? and NOT one of your self imposed delusional ideas of what I said?I had a lengthy response planned, but then realized there were so many more productive things I could do with my time than beat my head against the Green Wall of Champions.

[Archived Post]

The only thing I think thy should add is some kind of acknowledgement of those that have actually purchased a box copy (or equivalent e-retailer version) nothing huge maybe some kind of costume set or something.Wow........