A case for Custom Power Selection for all.

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I'm going to try and be as consise as I can here without rambling :)

I have had a chance to look through the known information on Free to Play, and there really is one thing that I do not like. Now I am not writing this suggestion to rant and yell, but I figure that now is the time to make suggestions before things are set in stone.

One of the common things I hear from people in my group is that they feel that this new model may bring old players back to the game. I think that the way the system is proposed that it may actually hinder that. The reality of the situation is that the majority of people who left did so because they were disatisfied with the game and did not see a cost value in spending $15 a month to remain subbed. Now these people could resub at any time, but don't because they don't see the value in it. Now if they could return on the silver level and play and get around old and new friends who are actively playing, I think it would help to provide motivation to either upgrade to Gold or at the very least to purchase things like adventure packs. The goal of the Free to Play model is to get players a foot in the door so that they want to spend money after all.

The issue I see is that players, at least most of the people I know, get very attached to characters, and this includes powers. Powers are usually linked to a concept that the player has for a character, and rarely are they confined to one archtype. I think that this will be a barrier to a returning player that may lead them to decide to not even come back to the Silver level. "Why come back if I can't play my character the way he/she/it was?"

The same holds true for someone who decides, for whatever reason, to slide from a Gold to a Silver level. Right now, when someone stops paying they quit the game. A silver level would allow them to remain in game and in touch with their friends. Now again, if you are around other people who are having fun, that positve energy can catch, and lead someone to upgrade and or purchase things. But if you have hit a point where you feel that a Gold level membership is not a true value, downgrade and then have to convert your character into a rigid archtype, I think that will lead to a "Goodbye" post on your Super Groups forums VS being able to still have that member ingame.

I know that the fuill details of the conversion have not been worked out. I know that there is the desire to make the Gold level appealing so that people upgrade to it from a Silver level, and I understand that. So my suggestion would be to make some kind of purchasable item in the C Store that you can apply to a single character and allow for custom power selection. Make the item less than a sub would be, maybe in the 800-1000 Cryptic Point range, and it only applies to one character. This way it is less than a sub would be, and at the very least is some revenue coming in. I can see many folks that I know who have left coming back and paying to have access to their main character and after playing a bit, want to unlock alts or Demonflame or whatever and then upgrading or subbing. Plus this would remove some of the "punishment" aspect fro someone who goes from Gold to Silver.

Thanks for reading my long winded post!

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i will not go in details, but this is exactly my issue too.
i have bin telling this yesterday all evening and it just didn't get trough, i hope this post does.

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I think this is a very important issue; I know it is to me.

It's pretty much a given I'll drop to SIlver come the change as I won't have anywhere near enough time for CO in the first half of 2011, anyways. Now knowing myself, I would likely check in occasionally on my favorite toon or two if I could, and eventually wind up re-subscribing when time permits. I'm sentimental that way.

If going Silver is effectively a wrap, that's exactly what it is. I don't return to games after 6-8 months to pick off where I've left off; instead, I go with something new.

The big problem I see is this: anyone with just one toon would be home safe with a "Gold char" option, whereas altaholics gain little benefit. Which would be bad for Cryptic in two ways - the single char players won't be spending any money and the altaholics will be ****ed off.

No idea how to solve that conundrum.

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I agree with you guys to a point, but I see it as a sound stratedgy on Cryptics part. It is a way to have the silver players you bring in to look at moving to Gold. I'm sorry but I think those who pay should get better treatment and better choices.

Cryptic has to go into this thinking that Silvers will move to Gold, otherwise this game will not bring in enough revenue. I as a gold memeber just wish that there was more in the C-Store so I can contribute more, now that I have hit my F2P point.

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Well there really are a couple of options for that. For the serious alt aholic, subbing would be the best option. However they are still going (unless I am mistaken) to have additional character slots in the store, Now with what I proposed, someone could, in theory purchase additional characters and then purchase the ability to make each one have custom powers, on a single, case by case basis.

So:

Player 1 and Player 2 are both Silver members. Both have purchased the ability to have a single character have custom powers. They both get struck by alt fever...

Player 1 opts to go to a gold level (yay money for Cryptic!) and gets the additional slots and all characters have the custom framework. if for some reason Player 1 decides to go back Silver, they will be limited to the Silver level character limit, and only the 1 character they had applied the custom power framework to would still be playable as such.

Player 2 opts to purchase additional slots and the ability to access custom frameworks for each character on a case by base basis. So they spend X points to buy additional slots, than X # of points to make each character have access to custom powers. They then have access to those characters and powers as normal, but have to continue to purchase additional ones. This would be a more expensive option at a single time, as opposed to drawing the expense out month by month by going Gold. Naturally a Silver member would most likely need to make other purchases as time goes on for Adventure packs, etc, so it's not like someone can drop a bunch of money all at once and never pay again (we call that a Lifetime sub in my house, LOL).

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I'm sorry but I think those who pay should get better treatment and better choices.

See? We agree there, really. It's just a matter of temporal baseline. Should Cryptic treat downgrade Silver players that will already have paid, in some cases (monthly sub since launch), over 200 dollars by the time FtP launches better than new Silver players who never picked up the game before?

Morally, there's no doubt as to the answer.
Business wise, actually, there isn't much, either. (Someone that has spent over 200 dollars on the game being told all that was wasted is not going to recommend others give the game a spin. It's a human thing.)

As a business, it'll be hell for Cryptic to figure out a good system to give enough to be appreciated without giving too much to keep old subsribers subscribed at all.

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Morally, there's no doubt as to the answer.
Business wise, actually, there isn't much, either. (Someone that has spent over 200 dollars on the game being told all that was wasted is not going to recommend others give the game a spin. It's a human thing.)

If there are Silver players that can play Gold characters, where is their incentive to upgrade their account to Gold?

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... have you even bothered reading the entire thread before posting?

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If there are Silver players that can play Gold characters, where is their incentive to upgrade their account to Gold?

The incentive is pretty clear, to me anyway. You get access to all of the Adventure Packs, more costume options and slots, the ability to hue powers, more character slots, and under what I am proposing, access to custom powers for every character as opposed to purchasing them on a case by case basis. I think there is a lot of incentive there to get a lot for one price.

Now there are players that would rather spend a larger initial amount to get what they want VS paying a monthly fee. I have a friend who buys a lifetime sub if he has even the most remote interest in a game because he doesn't want to deal with a sub.

I do not think that the custom power option is, or should be, the only appealing thing to get folks to upgrade, and that there are plenty of incentives to upgrade. I also think the pay for what you want model with Cryptic poinst is a valid model for some and should be equally appealing in a F2P model. :)

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... have you even bothered reading the entire thread before posting?
I always read the entire thread before posting...thanks for asking!

But yeah, I see what you are saying here. I should have kept the argument Silver to Silver instead of Silver to Gold, to keep more in line with what I was arguing against.

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See? We agree there, really. It's just a matter of temporal baseline. Should Cryptic treat downgrade Silver players that will already have paid, in some cases (monthly sub since launch), over 200 dollars by the time FtP launches better than new Silver players who never picked up the game before?

Morally, there's no doubt as to the answer.
Business wise, actually, there isn't much, either. (Someone that has spent over 200 dollars on the game being told all that was wasted is not going to recommend others give the game a spin. It's a human thing.)

As a business, it'll be hell for Cryptic to figure out a good system to give enough to be appreciated without giving too much to keep old subsribers subscribed at all.


Im sorry but I have to disagree with your morality point.

If a person paid for the service, received what they paid for, and then chose to stop paying for the service thats it. They have received what they paid for. There is no moral argument for Cryptic to continue to provide a service to an individual who has decided not to pay for that service.

Now if the argument was that Cryptic had not filfilled its obligations under the original subscription contract that would be a different argument entirely, but as long as a formerly paying customer has already received everything they paid for, they have no claim against Cryptic if they choose to stop paying for more service.

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Selona, I am of the opinion that the Open Power system is the single most valuable aspect of the Gold Membership by design and intent, and as such should never be available on a case-by-case basis, as it would destroy most of the need for a silver player to move to gold.

The very fact that you are so passionate about cutting it out of gold or making it an individually purchasable thing proves just how valuable it is to you.

You are going to have to decide if it is valuable enough to get you to sub to Gold when you otherwise would not.

In my opinion, this is the wisest course of action Cryptic can take here, and I hope they do not listen to you.

My best advice to you is that when the time comes for you to stop subscribing, don't move any existing characters to silver, altering your account.. just make a new account and play silver characters on it, and only touch your gold account characters when you are ready and able [and willing] to pony up again.

This is not meant to sound insulting nor condescending, but use your logic here.. Cryptic wants, no needs to make money, and taking out the very most valuable part of Gold membership to sell separately would kill off gold subscriptions from new members.

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Any sentence with the word "contract" in it has nothing to do with moral questions. (If you know someone that disagrees, ask Lou for his surname.)

Moral is, "Is it okay to tell someone, 'thank you so much for letting us take your money when we needed it, and by the way, from today on in we're offering the guy next to you the exact same service as you'll be getting despite the fact he never paid a dime.'?"

In theory, vet rewards could be the answer. In practice, vet rewards weren't even particularly rewarding und the pure subsription model. (Only altaholics need quick levelling and extra char slots; only fashion victions need more costume slots; all of about three people need that specific costume piece to see their design vision realized.)

And yes, anyone that has paid 200+ dollars would be someone that Cryptic owes something to morally. He spent about as much as lifetime subscribers did, so treating them exactly like a new Silver player that may or may not eventually decide to spend a dime would be a strong show of poor character.

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Any sentence with the word "contract" in it has nothing to do with moral questions. (If you know someone that disagrees, ask Lou for his surname.)

Moral is, "Is it okay to tell someone, 'thank you so much for letting us take your money when we needed it, and by the way, from today on in we're offering the guy next to you the exact same service as you'll be getting despite the fact he never paid a dime.'?"

In theory, vet rewards could be the answer. In practice, vet rewards weren't even particularly rewarding und the pure subsription model. (Only altaholics need quick levelling and extra char slots; only fashion victions need more costume slots; all of about three people need that specific costume piece to see their design vision realized.)

And yes, anyone that has paid 200+ dollars would be someone that Cryptic owes something to morally. He spent about as much as lifetime subscribers did, so treating them exactly like a new Silver player that may or may not eventually decide to spend a dime would be a strong show of poor character.

Except the guy next to you is paying just as much as you would be if you became a silver member at the same time. You both would be paying nothing. There is no reason for you to get to keep everything that you had before if you are not staying Gold.

I am a lifetimer and I dont feel they owe me anything. I have enjoyed my investment and will continue too till the game is shutdown.

Purhaps one thing they should other is lifetime membership once more. Pehaps a couple of weeks to a month after the F2P starts.Or before even.

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Selona, I am of the opinion that the Open Power system is the single most valuable aspect of the Gold Membership by design and intent, and as such should never be available on a case-by-case basis, as it would destroy most of the need for a silver player to move to gold.

The very fact that you are so passionate about cutting it out of gold or making it an individually purchasable thing proves just how valuable it is to you.

You are going to have to decide if it is valuable enough to get you to sub to Gold when you otherwise would not.

In my opinion, this is the wisest course of action Cryptic can take here, and I hope they do not listen to you.

My best advice to you is that when the time comes for you to stop subscribing, don't move any existing characters to silver, altering your account.. just make a new account and play silver characters on it, and only touch your gold account characters when you are ready and able [and willing] to pony up again.

This is not meant to sound insulting nor condescending, but use your logic here.. Cryptic wants, no needs to make money, and taking out the very most valuable part of Gold membership to sell separately would kill off gold subscriptions from new members.

Oh I'm a Lifetime subscriber, so I'm really not motivated by anything personal here. The time that I stop subscribing is when the servers get the plug pulled technically, lol. I guess I should have mentioned that.

And really I'm not as much a fan of cutting it out of Gold as making it available on a case by case basis if the player chooses. If the power customization is the single more valuable thing about the Gold membership, well yikes.

Like I said before, there should be enough in the Gold membership to entice someone to subscribe even if they purchase custom power frameworks on a case by case basis. And if there is not I highly doubt that those players would have stuck with a sub long anyway. As far as money goes, it would come from two sources, those giving a constant $15 a month for Gold and those giving wahtever $ they feel they need to put out in the C store. If Cryptic could get $30 from one player who plays 2 months and $20 (completly made up number) from a player who purchases that much in one month, I think that is still pretty good.

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I am a lifetimer and I dont feel they owe me anything. I have enjoyed my investment and will continue too till the game is shutdown.

So, "screw the idiots who didn't or couldn't get lifetime, I'm not the one that got the short end of the stick", right?

I doubt that's actually what you wanted to say. I don't really care, though.

The important thing is that Cryptic shouldn't wind up effectively saying that. It wouldn't exactly help word-of-mouth propaganda for the game.

They really need to re-offer lifetime for current, Pre-FtP subscribers in the 400 day vet bracket, at the very least. Possibly even the 300 day bracket. Give the choice to never need to think about Gold or Silver again as the very least of benefits of havin played before the FtP era.

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They really need to re-offer lifetime for current, Pre-FtP subscribers in the 400 day vet bracket, at the very least. Possibly even the 300 day bracket. Give the choice to never need to think about Gold or Silver again as the very least of benefits of havin played before the FtP era.

You think a for-profit company should offer customers who have shown they are the most willing to pay for this service a way to stop paying for it? We (I say "we" as a 400+ day subscriber who wishes he could have gotten in on the lifetime deal) are the most likely customers to subscribe for more than just next year. Therefore, we are the last people they want to let off the hook from subscribing.

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So my suggestion would be to make some kind of purchasable item in the C Store that you can apply to a single character and allow for custom power selection. Make the item less than a sub would be, maybe in the 800-1000 Cryptic Point range, and it only applies to one character. This way it is less than a sub would be, and at the very least is some revenue coming in. I can see many folks that I know who have left coming back and paying to have access to their main character and after playing a bit, want to unlock alts or Demonflame or whatever and then upgrading or subbing. Plus this would remove some of the "punishment" aspect fro someone who goes from Gold to Silver.

Thanks for reading my long winded post!

This just doesn't work, at all. Giving people a cheap, one-shot way of turning a character gold completely subverts the point of gold membership altogether.

Look at it this way. I have three characters that I like to play, and I want to make them Gold. I pay 10 bucks for each, and then never have to give Cryptic another dime. So what's the point of going gold then? There's little reason to grab that Gold when your characters are already Gold. So now you're playing almost like a Gold player, but the Gold player is still paying a monthly fee.

I'm not sure if my words are coming out like I want them to, but do you see what I'm getting at? Why bother get a Gold membership, if you can get the best benefit from Gold for less than a subscription fee, and never have to pay again?

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This just doesn't work, at all. Giving people a cheap, one-shot way of turning a character gold completely subverts the point of gold membership altogether.

Look at it this way. I have three characters that I like to play, and I want to make them Gold. I pay 10 bucks for each, and then never have to give Cryptic another dime. So what's the point of going gold then? There's little reason to grab that Gold when your characters are already Gold. So now you're playing almost like a Gold player, but the Gold player is still paying a monthly fee.

I'm not sure if my words are coming out like I want them to, but do you see what I'm getting at? Why bother get a Gold membership, if you can get the best benefit from Gold for less than a subscription fee, and never have to pay again?

Exactly. Sure you have to pay for APs, but that's gonna work out at less than 15 bucks a month.

The way I see it is this:

If you're thinking about downgrading from gold to silver, then you were obviously also thinking about quitting the game entirely, before F2P came out. (What other reason would you have for downgrading, other than to NOT pay 15 bucks a month)

If you were thinking about quitting entirely, Cryptic's offering you a way to continue playing without paying. If that offer isn't good enough for you, then I guess you can continue with your original plan of quitting entirely.

And if you -weren't- even considering quitting before the F2P option came up, why are you even considering downgrading? You obviously had it set in your head that you'd be paying 15 bucks a month for the foreseeable future, so nothing changes.

I don't think I'm explaining myself here very well, but it really does seem to me like you want Gold without paying for Gold. And I think that's quite unlikely to happen.

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And yes, anyone that has paid 200+ dollars would be someone that Cryptic owes something to morally. He spent about as much as lifetime subscribers did, so treating them exactly like a new Silver player that may or may not eventually decide to spend a dime would be a strong show of poor character.

Completely not.

I've been going to the same pizza joint twice a week for the last 6 years. They don't owe me anything. I still pay the same for my pizza as a guy who just moved into town. If I tried to tell 'em "Hey, I've been coming here for 6 years, gimme free pizza", I'd be laughed out of the place.

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This just doesn't work, at all. Giving people a cheap, one-shot way of turning a character gold completely subverts the point of gold membership altogether.

Look at it this way. I have three characters that I like to play, and I want to make them Gold. I pay 10 bucks for each, and then never have to give Cryptic another dime. So what's the point of going gold then? There's little reason to grab that Gold when your characters are already Gold. So now you're playing almost like a Gold player, but the Gold player is still paying a monthly fee.

I'm not sure if my words are coming out like I want them to, but do you see what I'm getting at? Why bother get a Gold membership, if you can get the best benefit from Gold for less than a subscription fee, and never have to pay again?

Well by the same token, why not make Adventure packs only playable through Gold membership? A player that opts to go Silver may not care about custom powers and is perfectly happy with a archtype. The only real new content will be the adventure packs, so if they want to play those they can buy and keep them for one single purchase. So in theory someone could pay, say, $10 for a Adventure pack every 12 weeks, and that is it. isn't that along the same lines as your example? Shouldn't Adventure pack content only be accessable via Gold membership? Why should a Silver player be able to access those by paying a one time fee?

I wonder if some of the resistence to this idea stems from the desire to have something perceived as really special linked with the Gold level membership. I can choose any power I want, thus I am special.

Regardless, I have presented the idea, and hopefully a member of the Dev Team has read it, which was the goal. I have no real control over what goes in, but I think that this would be a good idea. We shall just have to see what comes of it. Thanks for the replies, but I'm not looking to make this a crusade, so I likely won't return to the thread. Just wanted to get the suggestion out there. :)

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Well by the same token, why not make Adventure packs only playable through Gold membership? A player that opts to go Silver may not care about custom powers and is perfectly happy with a archtype. The only real new content will be the adventure packs, so if they want to play those they can buy and keep them for one single purchase. So in theory someone could pay, say, $10 for a Adventure pack every 12 weeks, and that is it. isn't that along the same lines as your example? Shouldn't Adventure pack content only be accessable via Gold membership? Why should a Silver player be able to access those by paying a one time fee?

APs are consumable, character slots arent. With that one Gold character, you could do anything with powers. If you got bored, you could retcon and go a completely different path. With APs, you will play them a little, then move on. They will also add other APs to the game for which to buy.


I wonder if some of the resistence to this idea stems from the desire to have something perceived as really special linked with the Gold level membership. I can choose any power I want, thus I am special.

Right...you caught us. Damn.

In all seriousness, that isn't my motive. I want this game to continue, and it wont with its current path. Getting more money into the game will allow me to enjoy it more. I want this to be a successful business venture for Cryptic and Atari. What you want is bad business, and I don't see how it would be good for the game. I don't think that Lifetime subs are good for the game either, but the investors wanted some quick cash at the beginning of the game.

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I think there's something being sorely overlooked here. Most F2P games get way more revenue from microtransactions than from subscriptions. The biggest advantage of most F2P systems is having a massive pool of potential customers and offering them lots of options as small purchases. The less options you give, the less likely someone will find a product they feel like buying. If they were to make power unlocks at $10-$20 a pop, the price would be high enough that some players would subscribe still, while others would remain silver and go with unlocks.

It really boils down to this - price the bells and whistles of a gold membership to where if a player were to buy them all, he would have spent as much or more than the average lifetime of a subscriber account. With that, future content, features and various shop items can easily fuel the game's revenue needs, on top of the normal subscribers.

Of course, my opinion is somewhat biased because I'm a fan of one-time purchases over "renting". I typically only subscribe for a month or two before getting bored and not touching the game for 6 months or so. If silver allowed power unlocks, I'd be happy to put down $200-$300 for a fully unlocked silver account and just buy future content/costumes. Without power selection the game doesn't interest me, so I'm either going to subscribe or not play under the current system.

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Custom power picks are the premiere feature of this game.

I suspect that demo accounts will still exist, which gives you temporary access to this premiere feature, and after the trial period has lapsed you will need to decide if this premium feature is worth the money.

People seem to think they have lost something somewhere, when in actuality they gained the ability to play for $0.

CO's not going to be the kind of FTP game that makes the "majority of their money" from C-Store purchases. There's not enough content there, the game basically relies on power picks for replayability. If you could buy yourself one character with the ability to pick powers, and retcon, then you could play every playstyle out there for zilch. Bad business.

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I wouldn't complain as long as there are enough archetypes but somehow i doubt that they are going to make an archetype for every single framework. Thus here is my suggestion:

Gold: Pick any power from any framework

Silver: pick any power from any group

for example lets take a "Blaster" archetype. You can pick any power you want from fire,ice,force,electricity
in any combo you want but you cant pick outside this group

Brute: single,dual,claws,unarmed

Supernatural: Feral, Infernal

Gadgeteer: gadgeteering,archery,munitions,power armor

Mystic: All sorceries, Celestial and Darkness

Might can be added to either brute or supernatural since it is alone in a group

I think this is a good and viable idea. To tell us exactly what power,talent and superstat we have is to me the same as making this game a free to play City of Heroes

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I will be one of the returning silver players. I do not see this as an issue. My issue, which after going to the correct matrix page, seems to be resolved of limited chat (well for 1st 20 hours of toons life). I can see the return of the trinity, and more reason for some people to team.* In fact I hope they increase team size to 8 - 10, and create more instant missions story lines that scale to team size/difficulty for all levels in all zones. If I want to just play by myself, I will go to Allods, DDO, LOTRO or some other F2P MMO and grind (none of which have chat restrictions, BTW), if I want pure PvP I'll go to World of Tanks (F2P MMO w/o chat restritions). I do prefer the Super Hero Genre, and seriously look forward to being able to play CO as a F2P, and like every other F2P, if I want extras, I have to pay.

The biggest problem, as pointed out in this forum, is going to PvP. I think a lot of returning hard core, and casual PvPers are going to be turned off unless they are a strict support toon for gold players. I would like to think Cryptic is going to look into a way to give some balance to silver players being able to compete in PvP. (This is based on: the assumption a lot of the returning fan base, and new players will be silver using the C-Store to buy additional items; from when I PvP on CO but almost a year ago.)

*A big part of the success of Blood Moon is we were teaming, and I had hoped Cryptic would have learned from that. This is based upon the reaction of people whom I know and still play other MMO's with, others I played/grouped with, and even people posting in the forums seemed to agree. That sense of MMO and teaming help boost the good will of this game.

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Custom power picks are the premiere feature of this game.
in fact, it's 4/5 of the game's fun, so removing that from F2P is removing what makes this game CO.

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Well by the same token, why not make Adventure packs only playable through Gold membership? A player that opts to go Silver may not care about custom powers and is perfectly happy with a archtype. The only real new content will be the adventure packs, so if they want to play those they can buy and keep them for one single purchase. So in theory someone could pay, say, $10 for a Adventure pack every 12 weeks, and that is it. isn't that along the same lines as your example? Shouldn't Adventure pack content only be accessable via Gold membership? Why should a Silver player be able to access those by paying a one time fee?

Then you can make this argument for any part of the game, right? Costumes? Gold only. Expansions? Gold only. Adventure Packs? Gold only. Know where we're at now? Pre-free-to-play.


I wonder if some of the resistence to this idea stems from the desire to have something perceived as really special linked with the Gold level membership. I can choose any power I want, thus I am special.

Thats... actually, pretty much it. The developers have decided that one of the most special things about this game is powers customization, so they want it only linked with the Gold membership.

Tell me, if you could have Gold characters without a monthly subscription fee, would you even care about going Gold? If so, why?


Regardless, I have presented the idea, and hopefully a member of the Dev Team has read it, which was the goal. I have no real control over what goes in, but I think that this would be a good idea. We shall just have to see what comes of it. Thanks for the replies, but I'm not looking to make this a crusade, so I likely won't return to the thread. Just wanted to get the suggestion out there. :)

You shouldn't act like this is a heated argument. People arguing against your idea is just people on the other side of the fence. No reason to just leave like that.

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in fact, it's 4/5 of the game's fun, so removing that from F2P is removing what makes this game CO.

No... I think the gameplay itself is a huge part of the game's fun. I don't think sitting around choosing powers is 80% of the fun. Using them, that's the good stuff.

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At first I thought this was a neat idea. But then I remembered that most people aren't altoholics like myself. MOST people would pay the $10 bucks and get total customization on a character. Then they'd take 2-3 months of leveling that character. Once they're finished they buy it again for another toon.

Using that model Cryptic just lost $35 from that customer.

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At first I thought this was a neat idea. But then I remembered that most people aren't altoholics like myself. MOST people would pay the $10 bucks and get total customization on a character. Then they'd take 2-3 months of leveling that character. Once they're finished they buy it again for another toon.

Using that model Cryptic just lost $35 from that customer.
Well, maybe. They might decide to just retcon the character for the rest of the year to try out different sets.

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Well, maybe. They might decide to just retcon the character for the rest of the year to try out different sets.

True, and that'd be even worse for Cryptic. Not to mention there'd be even more levels 40s with non-progression builds that have no idea what they're doing on teams.

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True, and that'd be even worse for Cryptic. Not to mention there'd be even more levels 40s with non-progression builds that have no idea what they're doing on teams.
ThatswhatImsayin...knowwhatImean?

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Well, maybe. They might decide to just retcon the character for the rest of the year to try out different sets.
The devs could always say that retcons will be 'gold'.

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You shouldn't act like this is a heated argument. People arguing against your idea is just people on the other side of the fence. No reason to just leave like that.

Oh it's not like I got my feelings hurt or see this as some kind of war or fight. I think any feedback is cool, even if I don't agree with it. It's more just a matter that I don't want to get sucked into debating features for an idea that may not even be on the table. I've hit the part of the semester where things go from being due down the road to "OMG THAT SOON??!!" So I just need to step back form something that was killing some of my time. I didn't mean anything by it :)

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For ages I've been reading posts about money, resources, and hopefully the game will last...all from the players of course. Then Cryptic announces the F2P method of enticing new customers into the game with limited powers, etc and suddenly all those same complainers want to jump the fence and are saying they are going to switch to F2P and complaining because they want even more stuff to be free.

How exactly is the game supposed to last?

I keep seeing how Silver members won't do well in PvP or won't have enough power options, etc. Guess what? Subscribe to Gold and with more paying players, this game will get better and better.

Seems like everyone is arguing to get more free stuff for Silver and it makes no sense to me. maybe I'm daft...

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Completely not.

I've been going to the same pizza joint twice a week for the last 6 years. They don't owe me anything. I still pay the same for my pizza as a guy who just moved into town. If I tried to tell 'em "Hey, I've been coming here for 6 years, gimme free pizza", I'd be laughed out of the place.

A ******** comparison. The proper comparison is: what happens if the pizza parlor decides to make pizza free? Unless you're an utter *******, they will treat you to better slices than the guy who never came in before, because that's how people are.

Okay, that's assuming it's an actual piiza parlor, not a fast-food version thereof.

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No... I think the gameplay itself is a huge part of the game's fun. I don't think sitting around choosing powers is 80% of the fun. Using them, that's the good stuff.

half true, it's fun to use them, it's not fun to be restricted on what you use or even being stripped from your own purchase.
let's look at guild wars for a sec, imagine that if you choose a profession, you have to use that specific skill to continue or the fun is over.
in GW you can just choose your skills regardless of the class system, this system, however, makes it a lot worse then any class system i have ever seen in my life.
and since i have bin playing MMO's, F2P B2P and P2P, for over 5 years, saying that does mean something is really wrong.
CO is build completely around customization, taking that away is removing the game's mechanism.
arch types are nice for COX kind of games, not for CO kind of games.
you know what bothers me the most even beyond this restriction, the fact that this game is not even completed nor does it fill the 18-25 lvl gap, and we still have to pay for a beta?
don't say this game is not in beta because i have seen half finished games released who were in better shape then this game, some bugs but still really fun to play, unlike a certain game champions online

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"This game is not in beta.."

OH SNAP! my bad :p

@sorudo Guild Wars is a bad comparison. It's F2P yes, but it has regular paid expansions. Also they aren't trying to get people to sub ... it's always free. And as far as I can remember I don't recall a cash shop. It has been several years since I played though.

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@sorudo Guild Wars is a bad comparison. It's F2P yes, but it has regular paid expansions. Also they aren't trying to get people to sub ... it's always free. And as far as I can remember I don't recall a cash shop. It has been several years since I played though.

There's been a cash shop for a while. It's full of just random things like makeover tokens or character slots. In fact, it's got less stuff on it then Cryptic has on CO.

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half true, it's fun to use them, it's not fun to be restricted on what you use or even being stripped from your own purchase.

But it sure is fun to be able to use them for free.

And you still get customization. A whole lot of people, maybe even most, when asked what the best part of the game is, they'll say it's the costume editor.

I mean, you're basically saying that you want to choose to stop paying, but continue playing the game as you were before? You're not being stripped of your purchase. The only thing you purchased with your subscription fees is time to play the game. You don't own anything inside the game. Cryptic does.

To be honest, when the game goes free, I plan on making Silver characters (or even a silver account) to play around with the archetypes, because I think they sound fun, and will get me to branch out into powersets I've never even touched before.

let's look at guild wars for a sec, imagine that if you choose a profession, you have to use that specific skill to continue or the fun is over.
in GW you can just choose your skills regardless of the class system, this system, however, makes it a lot worse then any class system i have ever seen in my life.
and since i have bin playing MMO's, F2P B2P and P2P, for over 5 years, saying that does mean something is really wrong.
CO is build completely around customization, taking that away is removing the game's mechanism.
arch types are nice for COX kind of games, not for CO kind of games.

That's kind of the point. The power customization is a big draw to the game, right? It'll make people pay for it. They get a taste of it, and how the game plays by playing for free. If they see a guy throwing fireballs and freezing people and summoning dogs and whatnot all at once, and they want to do that so bad, their credit cards will start flying out of their pants. Otherwise, the game is still fun to play because it just is. Maybe not for you, but you're not everybody.

you know what bothers me the most even beyond this restriction, the fact that this game is not even completed nor does it fill the 18-25 lvl gap, and we still have to pay for a beta?
don't say this game is not in beta because i have seen half finished games released who were in better shape then this game, some bugs but still really fun to play, unlike a certain game champions online

Do you still actively play? I haven't hit a content gap in over a year.

And... wait, you think Champions isn't fun to play? Why are you still around?

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Do you still actively play? I haven't hit a content gap in over a year.
And certainly not in the 18-25 range. City Center, Snake Gulch, Desert Viper, Hunter-Patriots, Project Awakening, Gadroon.

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i think they should let silver players chose what powers they get i mean the main reason any of u play champions is to chose ur own power so y stop sivers from doing the same i think alot of people will get p***ed off if they dont get to chose

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i think they should let silver players chose what powers they get i mean the main reason any of u play champions is to chose ur own power so y stop sivers from doing the same i think alot of people will get p***ed off if they dont get to chose
Because then no one would subscribe to the Gold Member plan. And to be honest, I dont really care if a non paying player is upset at what they would get for free.

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I feel that limiting the way you level up is just as bad as limiting the character/costume editor itself. I'm fine with being restricted from changing my power hue or whatnot, since it should be a perk for gold members, but having a predetermined path of that kind of leveling takes out one of the first fundamentals for modern MMO's and RPG's, which is self-customization. You take something like that away, and silver members will cease to be playing Champions Online the way I believe the developers intended it.

I don't want to get into the business model or economics of the game, but this just doesn't seem right.

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You take something like that away, and silver members will cease to be playing Champions Online the way I believe the developers intended it.

Ummm, but Silver members don't pay...
:confused:

I believe the developers intended for the game to make enough money to last for awhile. All this whining to give everything away free is nuts. Why would anyone ever pay and thus...the game would fold up in a couple months.

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I feel that limiting the way you level up is just as bad as limiting the character/costume editor itself. I'm fine with being restricted from changing my power hue or whatnot, since it should be a perk for gold members, but having a predetermined path of that kind of leveling takes out one of the first fundamentals for modern MMO's and RPG's, which is self-customization. You take something like that away, and silver members will cease to be playing Champions Online the way I believe the developers intended it.

I don't want to get into the business model or economics of the game, but this just doesn't seem right.

Having a predetermined leveling path in respect to chosen powers is the staple of modern MMOs. That is the definition of class.

I think new player will be more comfortable with that than mixing it up right from the beginning. how many arguments have raged across these forums on the question of 'pure' builds vs 'concept'. Now well all get a chance to find that answer. In most MMOs self-customization comes in the form of appearance and weapon selection. From character creation you are normally locked into your class tree, only being able to 'dual-class' at an extreme negative discount.

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On a side note, I do feel sorry for everyone with a Lifetime Subscription. The moment Cryptic announced F2P, they're stuck in a rock and a hard place. I considered the Lifetime myself before the game was released.

How so....we still get a Gold Membership for life. Ignorant statements like this confuse me.

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Hrm... I have been championing this idea, or at least a version, for a few days. However, with the advent of a stipend for gold players, I think my stance has changed.


While it is an olive branch tactic, to allow in some way those that played the game, I think the better solution be would not allow someone to have one fully customized hero to play for an account. Instead give a free 30 days and some C points to buy a Gold Archetype or slot, so to keep their character intact. This applies only to those that have purchased the game before the changeover to FTP.

While that solves all problems without needed extra stuff to worry about. Those that like the changes will stay on and pay, those that don't wont, and those that can't, pay at the time, can still get something to keep them around for a bit longer.

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I also agree that this is an issue. I was considering playing again as Silver (sure as hell not subscribing in the game's current state), 'till I saw the complete absence of power customization.
This game is ungodly shallow outside of character customization, and a massive portion of that customization is powers. This game would be pretty terrible for Silver players.

Honestly and carefully think about it; what impression do you think new players would get of this game playing without that aspect?

I like the idea of a C-Store single character power unlock. I would hope that would include Tinting as well.
I'm not saying I want everything for free; I'm saying I want to be able to play the game when I feel like it, and walk away for a while if it annoys me without getting ripped off. I prefer micro-transactions to unlock things here and there to a recurring bill.

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I like the idea of a C-Store single character power unlock. I would hope that would include Tinting as well.
I'm not saying I want everything for free; I'm saying I want to be able to play the game when I feel like it, and walk away for a while if it annoys me without getting ripped off. I prefer micro-transactions to unlock things here and there to a recurring bill.
Actually, you kinda are asking for everything for free. You want power set customization and tinting...which are really the only things over a free account.

You can play the game when you feel like it and walk away. Pay for a month, and then you can leave. Or you could just play with a free account inbetween moments when you dont feel like there is anything justifying the cost.

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I also agree that this is an issue. I was considering playing again as Silver (sure as hell not subscribing in the game's current state), 'till I saw the complete absence of power customization.
This game is ungodly shallow outside of character customization, and a massive portion of that customization is powers. This game would be pretty terrible for Silver players.

Honestly and carefully think about it; what impression do you think new players would get of this game playing without that aspect?

I like the idea of a C-Store single character power unlock. I would hope that would include Tinting as well.
I'm not saying I want everything for free; I'm saying I want to be able to play the game when I feel like it, and walk away for a while if it annoys me without getting ripped off. I prefer micro-transactions to unlock things here and there to a recurring bill.

I would agree that a token of unlocking gold customization slot for certain time, let's say a month. That way, players still provide some income for the game but at their own pace and still should be some encouragement for frequent users and altholics to get full subscription. This will need a lot of tweeking to make things fair for subscribers and generous for silvers.

Another thing, I think the best way to manage gold <-> silver character changes is to have two builds in the database. So a person who decide to change its plan could recover its original configuration if he decided to switch back.

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I would agree that a token of unlocking gold customization slot for certain time, let's say a month.

Yes, and they should charge $15 for that token, and it should apply to all characters on an account, not just one. And it should also allow you to access the "gold" costume options as well.

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Yes, and they should charge $15 for that token, and it should apply to all characters on an account, not just one. And it should also allow you to access the "gold" costume options as well.
Hmm...that's just crazy enough to work!

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Yes, and they should charge $15 for that token, and it should apply to all characters on an account, not just one. And it should also allow you to access the "gold" costume options as well.

lol, that would be perfect. Anyway, I was just trying to conciliate a bit the thread positions. For my case, I am happy with the current plans, but it doesn't hurt to brainstorm a bit.

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Have the exact details regarding what exactly the archetypes include, been released? From the way they were described, it sounds like they are picking powers from mostly 1 framework, with a few other choice powers thrown in. As such, hopefully there will be *some* choice in powers when playing an AT...

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(TL;DR on the bottom)

While I fully agree that dropping to Silver totally shafts the people involved because it makes their characters unplayable until they resub, the game has way less features than other sub/F2P games. Unlike Turbine's games which have a long list of features that can be split up across three member levels, CO doesn't have that many.

Something needs to be kept back to only subers, or nobody will sub because they can just pay a one time fee to unlock anything then never need to pay again except for consumables. If the majority never need to pay again because they unlocked everything they want, how's Cryptic going to cover their costs if virtually nobody is paying anymore?

CO has a much smaller amount of people interested in it than other games on a similar model, so the threat of not enough people supporting the game is very much real. If they make everything unlockable for Silvers, it's quite possible that a lot of people would just dump $500 into the game to unlock every single thing possible then never pay another cent.

They have a smaller playerbase. Unlike Turbine where I'm pretty sure most of their players are Premium and not paying anymore (basically free players who stay in the middle level because they have everything they want and don't care for the sub features), more people sign up on a daily basis to replace the ones who aren't paying. It doesn't hurt their income much because for every person who stops contributing, arbitrarily 5 more show up and replace them.

If Cryptic doesn't keep major features back to the Gold level, not enough people will want to sub if the Gold level only has optional extras (The way LOTRO does it for example). By keeping major features to subs and offering a stipend, they guarantee that those who really want to play their game will sub. As opposed to letting everybody unlock it.

TL;DR: You need to consider the financial situation of Cryptic as opposed to the financial situation of other, larger and more popular, sub/F2P games. While the F2P portion would be huge income in the short term (Because the average F2P player would probably spend at least $500 to unlock everything Golds get), in the long term these people would just buy one new AP or costume set per 3 months afterward.

What would you have Cryptic do instead? I really don't mean to sound like I fully support the 2 player level model, but I took a class on running a business, so it's not hard to make a case for the company and explain their actions, while still agreeing on a personal level that the customer is getting severely shafted.

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If a player decides to "go Silver", they are not being "shafted" in any way. What do they get, now, if they let their sub expire? They can't play at all. If they let their sub expire once the game goes F2P, they will have to settle for exactly what other people that aren't paying, get. To give them one of the biggest draws of being a subscriber, without having to pay, just doesn't make sense. If a player allows their account to go silver, they made that decision consciously, and they got what they paid for during the agreed upon time frame. Afterward, Cryptic has no further obligation to continue access for Gold content...

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You've been active in this thread longer than me and you don't see it? Old characters indeed can't be used and take up character slots, so the person needs to either make alts until they can resub (Assuming they even have slots free), or quit because they can's use their favorite characters nor make new ones.

It's exactly like right now. Dropping down to Silver amounts to no service unless you had spare character slots.

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If a player decides to "go Silver", they are not being "shafted" in any way. What do they get, now, if they let their sub expire? They can't play at all. If they let their sub expire once the game goes F2P, they will have to settle for exactly what other people that aren't paying, get. To give them one of the biggest draws of being a subscriber, without having to pay, just doesn't make sense. If a player allows their account to go silver, they made that decision consciously, and they got what they paid for during the agreed upon time frame. Afterward, Cryptic has no further obligation to continue access for Gold content...

They could also only let Silver players observe the Golds playing and they'd have more than they do now. I just think there could be better ways to do this.
Currently they're treating Silver membership as a glorified demo rather than a legitimate alternative.
If they just left it as they have planned now while cutting out the power locking Gold membership would seem crappy, but they could find something better to replace that if they're clever.
I think "glorified demo" actually is their intent though, in which case I'm fairly disappointed and really don't care about it.

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Have the exact details regarding what exactly the archetypes include, been released? From the way they were described, it sounds like they are picking powers from mostly 1 framework, with a few other choice powers thrown in. As such, hopefully there will be *some* choice in powers when playing an AT...
The only choices are in Advantages and travel powers. You just dont get to choose which powers you want.


You've been active in this thread longer than me and you don't see it? Old characters indeed can't be used and take up character slots, so the person needs to either make alts until they can resub (Assuming they even have slots free), or quit because they can's use their favorite characters nor make new ones.

It's exactly like right now. Dropping down to Silver amounts to no service unless you had spare character slots.
You can convert your characters to Silver through some unknown process. It would most likely give you a retcon. If you want to keep all your characters safe for a rainy day, you could just start a second account.


They could also only let Silver players observe the Golds playing and they'd have more than they do now. I just think there could be better ways to do this.
Currently they're treating Silver membership as a glorified demo rather than a legitimate alternative.
If they just left it as they have planned now while cutting out the power locking Gold membership would seem crappy, but they could find something better to replace that if they're clever.
I think "glorified demo" actually is their intent though, in which case I'm fairly disappointed and really don't care about it.
Its a tad more than a glorified demo as you have access to 95% of the game content for free. Yes, you are stuck in an Archetype, but for someone who has never tried the game it is a good way to get your feet wet. We all kinda biffed our first character with all the choices.

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They could also only let Silver players observe the Golds playing and they'd have more than they do now. I just think there could be better ways to do this.
Currently they're treating Silver membership as a glorified demo rather than a legitimate alternative.
If they just left it as they have planned now while cutting out the power locking Gold membership would seem crappy, but they could find something better to replace that if they're clever.
I think "glorified demo" actually is their intent though, in which case I'm fairly disappointed and really don't care about it.

I don't follow. As a silver member, you can play the entire game, from 1-40, except you are limited to archetypes, certain costume pieces, and can't play AP's unless you buy them. That is definitely more than "a glorified demo".

If you were a gold member, had all your character slots used up, and allowed yourself to "go silver", then that's really your own decision. I don't want to use the term "fault" here, but there's really no good way to address this. If they grandfathered 2 of your character's, and allowed you to continue to play them as a silver member, then it'd actually be an incentive to pay for 1 month then stop subbing - you'd get one of the biggest draws to being a subscriber, without the continued requirement of having to pay. The only other option I could think of would be to require the former gold member to pick 2 of their characters, have them instantly brought to the powerhouse, and given a forced retcon, where they'd have to select from an archetype. Even that's not perfect, since you'd essentially be giving these players a free full retcon. Similarly, let's say you gave that player 2 new character slots and forced them to make new characters - that's not a good choice, either, as it's more things that players normally have to pay extra for...

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You can convert your characters to Silver through some unknown process. It would most likely give you a retcon. If you want to keep all your characters safe for a rainy day, you could just start a second account.Hadn't thought of that. Yea, they could do that and have slots on an account that only gets used when not subbed on the other one. Still would mean that they gotta tell people involved that they got alts under a different handle.

But yea, it could work I guess.

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Hadn't thought of that. Yea, they could do that and have slots on an account that only gets used when not subbed on the other one. Still would mean that they gotta tell people involved that they got alts under a different handle.

But yea, it could work I guess.

If that's the case, then just make a new, silver account for yourself if you're other one has all its slots full and you're going to let your sub expire.

As I mentioned, if you gave retcons from open builds to archetypes, if you went from gold to silver, you're basically providing a free service that others have to pay for, (retcons). If you give "silver only" character slots to gold members when they let their sub lapse, then you're providing another free upgrade. Similarly, what happens if someone w/ a gold sub lets it expire, goes and gets those 2 free char slots, then resubs later. Can they still access those "silver slots"? If so, they would be able to retcon them into open-builds. Then what? They let their sub lapse again and start the cycle over?

Simple solution: if you are a gold subscriber, either don't let your sub lapse, or make sure you have 2 unused or AT-only slots for when you do let it lapse...

The *only* thing I could see them doing would be to give all gold members 2 add'l character slots that are permanently locked into archetypes. Then, if the owner of that account lets their sub expire, they are locked out of all but those 2 slots. This would be kinda neat as it would give all players a little incentive to try the archetypes, and mean that going gold gives you even more character slots. Of course, since going from silver to gold gives you more character slots anyway, they may not need to do this for future accounts, (it could sort of be a pre-F2P launch bonus for existing paying customers).

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How can you be shafted if you arent paying for the service ?

If someone chooses to not pay they can create a free account that gives them access to most of the game at literally no cost to themselves.

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biostem I like that idea on the bottom.

People who sub would either not use those extra slots, or make alts they can play if they do let their sub lapse.

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My best advice to you is that when the time comes for you to stop subscribing, don't move any existing characters to silver, altering your account.. just make a new account and play silver characters on it, and only touch your gold account characters when you are ready and able [and willing] to pony up again.
^^^THIS.
exactly what I was thinking. if you have a great character why not let it sit 6 months and play silver, when you re-sub your characters (gold) will be safe and waiting.

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I think this is going to be a major issue too. I have suggested that players be able either:-

1) as a courtesy on Cryptic's part, for an ex-subscriber to retain "Gold status" even on a Silver account for ONE (or at most two) favourite character(s), so they can play just that character(s) as they were, i.e. as fully customizable (something like this is what happens on DDO when you downgrade, and I think there's something analogous on LOTRO and EQ2). i.e. when that person first logs onto Silver, they have a choice of "downgrading" their characters to Silver Archetypes, or retaining Gold status (i.e. playable as they were) for just one or two of their characters. (Maybe you could set a level limit - i.e. only on chars above lvl 25 say, so that it's only people who have real serious "favourites").

or

2) make "Gold status" purchasable on a slot-by-slot basis on a Silver account, but with a discount for people who were subscribers before f2p goes into play, or, once f2p is in play, if they have at any time been Gold subscribers.

Or some combination of these. It's pretty clear that this is an issue that's going to come up again and again, if only because people will be comparing CO's f2p system with those already extant (DDO, LOTRO, and EQ2, all three of which offer some variation on this type of system). APs don't need to be included - they should still be separate, and definitely not part of the per-character Gold retention status.

There are of course pros and cons, but I think if it's limited to (at most) 2 chars for an ex-subscriber, and has a fairly hefty price on a slot-by-slot basis, Cryptic needn't be losing out on their USP, and there's still massive advantage to being a Gold subscriber (namely that all one's characters are of course customizable).

The reasoning behind this is that it's better for someone to be on a Silver account when they're not subscribing to Gold than to not be playing CO at all - since the Cryptic store is open, and will be used by such a player (especially if, as we all hope, it's going to be well stocked, and regularly re-stocked, with items such as costume sets, APs, etc., etc., as a result of the move to f2p).

I know that speaking for myself, as the system is currently described, I will have no incentive to go on a Silver account and play occasionally on those times when I'm not going to be subscribing (either through surfeit of Canada/Desert juggling, or budgetary constraints, or whatever) - nor is there any interest for me in opening another Silver account as has been suggested.

While from the point of view of new players, it's likely that they may want to "test the waters" with one character to make them customizable, and that should be a buyable option.

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If I stop paying for HBO, I stop being able to watch those channels.

If I stop paying my ISP bill, I stop being able to get on the internet.

...

So why would it make sense to let someone stop paying for Gold level membership here, yet, still keep what has to be the single biggest draw for people to have a Gold membership in the first place??

If you want custom archetypes, pay for them.

That is all.

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If I stop paying for HBO, I stop being able to watch those channels.

If I stop paying my ISP bill, I stop being able to get on the internet.

...

So why would it make sense to let someone stop paying for Gold level membership here, yet, still keep what has to be the single biggest draw for people to have a Gold membership in the first place??

If you want custom archetypes, pay for them.

That is all.

great analogy. spot on. i

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Allowing the best feature of the game to be purchased for a small one time fee, is a good way for Cryptic to say: "Everyone please stop subscribing, as it is pointless"

at least imo.

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The "pro custom builds for silver" folks have some valid points, but quite simply, that is the main draw of the game.

Sure, some might come back for the social aspect, but it's pretty common thought that the social aspects are missing. Also, you can still socialize to an extent on silver anyway.

Sure, there is the draw of the AP's, but so far there's only 2, and there won't be any more coming for a while, and the AP's are rather short. As awesome as they might be, folks can buy the game for $6 at some places, get their free month of gold play, go through both AP's a hundred times, then cancel their sub before ever being charged.

Quite simply there is no long term draw to keep customers paying outside the ability to reroll new characters, and giving silver players the full array of powers and talents and advantages leaves them wanting... Fire Flight? Because as it stands, you can buy more character slots, and if you can buy more slots, and have access to all the powers, and can run through the whole game, and not have to pay a single cent, what would be left worth paying for? Heck, turn it around, if the whole game is free, and the only thing you're paying for is access to 2 hour AP's....

Well then that's just a free game with paid expansions.



-Pi

Edit:
Paid Expansions you'd probably be able to playtest for free on the PTS.

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The *only* thing I could see them doing would be to give all gold members 2 add'l character slots that are permanently locked into archetypes. Then, if the owner of that account lets their sub expire, they are locked out of all but those 2 slots. This would be kinda neat as it would give all players a little incentive to try the archetypes, and mean that going gold gives you even more character slots. Of course, since going from silver to gold gives you more character slots anyway, they may not need to do this for future accounts, (it could sort of be a pre-F2P launch bonus for existing paying customers).


Hmm. That might cause a lot of problems unless those archetype slots are restricted like the Silver accounts. If those 2 characters have access to adventure packs, gold costumes, the lvl 15 and 30 costume slots, 4 bags, tinted powers, more than 5 items on the market, gold travel powers, created super groups before 20 hours of play time, used some of the stipend points...and then the account dropped to Silver status...what happens with those characters? They might have to be locked like the Gold characters.

It may be simpler to give all accounts 2 additional slots that are locked into Silver, meaning Gold accounts can't use them unless they were downgraded to Silver. Conversely, if that account later went back to Gold the Silver slot characters should be locked out. Your account is Gold or Silver, your characters are Gold or Silver. The only time this doesn't apply is to LTS, they can't be downgraded to Silver, as it stands now at any rate.

Make sense?

edit: typo

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Call me an idiot, I missed the part about being able to convert a character from Gold to Silver. I guess you can have all of those things and then give them up if you decide to downgrade.

I wouldn't do it, but I suppose some people would.

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Allowing the best feature of the game to be purchased for a small one time fee, is a good way for Cryptic to say: "Everyone please stop subscribing, as it is pointless"

at least imo.

If it was per character then it'd wouldn't really be that bad as people are constantly creating alts in a game like this. And it doesn't really matter if people stop subscribing so long as it means that Cryptic is profiting from it.

In DDO you can essentially buy all the content and classes/races that subscribers have free access to, but doing so would cost you a little over $100 and by the time you've bought everything there's bound to be more content, classes and more out for you to buy. And even then there are still a couple of pluses that only subscribers have access to (such as point stipends, customer support and priority login queues)

A successful free-to-play MMO shouldn't make the subscribing option the BEST option. It should instead accept that there is a huge portion of the market ready to buy a thing here and there and instead accommodate these people rather than trying to herd them into the subscription option.

Follow DDO's strategy of making the non-subscribing option a viable way of enjoying the entire game by offering the entire game split up in the cash shop.

Don't follow turn the non-subscribing option into a glorified trial in an effort to get subscribers of which there are simply too few.

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If it was per character then it'd wouldn't really be that bad as people are constantly creating alts in a game like this.
I don't think everyone makes alts. In fact quite a few subscribers only play on one character.

I'm pretty certain allowing the key bonus features Gold members have (power freedom, power tinting) to be simply bought at the store, even if it's per character basis, would be Cryptic shooting itself in the foot.

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Its a tad more than a glorified demo as you have access to 95% of the game content for free. Yes, you are stuck in an Archetype, but for someone who has never tried the game it is a good way to get your feet wet. We all kinda biffed our first character with all the choices.

I actually suggested a while back something like this, that would let [new] players be guided through their power selection, so when they went to the PowerHouse, a predetermined power, based on the archetype they chose, would be suggested and already highlighted, with a little tip explaining why that power was being suggested.

I personally think the Archetypes are great - they let anyone jump right in without having to worry about making bad choices or having to understand everything all at once.

I really don't understand why people are so upset. You still get to pick which archetype you use, and you still get to play the game, which is the fun part, and you do it all for free. I'm actually going to make a second Silver account because the archetypes seem interesting and fun.

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Moral is, "Is it okay to tell someone, 'thank you so much for letting us take your money when we needed it, and by the way, from today on in we're offering the guy next to you the exact same service as you'll be getting despite the fact he never paid a dime.'?"
Lifetime subscriptions aside ... what you paid BEFORE, doesn't matter.

Not contractually, not ethically, notmorally.

If you were subscribing before, and you want to return and have the same level of service, SUBSCRIBE AGAIN.

And yes, anyone that has paid 200+ dollars would be someone that Cryptic owes something to morally.
Dead. Frelling. Wrong.

Cryptic was morally obligated to provide a service for a specified period of time. They did so - thus, discharging their obligations.

And that is the end of it.

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So, "screw the idiots who didn't or couldn't get lifetime, I'm not the one that got the short end of the stick", right?
WHAT short end of WHAT stick?

If you want Gold level perks, SUBSCRIBE. Just like you have to do right now.

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Call me an idiot, I missed the part about being able to convert a character from Gold to Silver. I guess you can have all of those things and then give them up if you decide to downgrade.

I wouldn't do it, but I suppose some people would.

Well, here's the issue: Let's say you're paying for Gold, and, for whatever the reason, you let your sub expire to silver. Now, you had used all of your character slots to make gold characters previously. What, exactly, do you get to do w/ your silver acct which has all gold characters that you can't access?

One idea is to give all gold acct's 2 character slots that are locked into silver level status. Even if you're paying for gold, these 2 character slots are treated as silver. You'd still have all the other character slots you're due as a gold member, but these 2 slots are to give you *something* should you have to let your subscription expire to silver...

[Archived Post]

Allowing the best feature of the game to be purchased for a small one time fee, is a good way for Cryptic to say: "Everyone please stop subscribing, as it is pointless"

This is what I've been trying to say, but you put it in a more succinct, "shove it up your ****" way that makes a lot more sense. Kudos. :D

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Read the first 2 pages and just wanted to add something :

If i can not have Custom Characters, i wont even download the F2P client, it's as simple as that.
Having the ability to unlock those for a one time fee would be the perfect solution, if cryptic doesn't see that and instead as so many other F2P models in recent times ops for "well we call it f2p but in reality you can't really play for free" then that's that.

I was so glad when i checked out their f2p model so far and there was no ******** along the lines of "well you only get to level x" or "you only get the first 4 zones". That alone i a huge step up from what LOTRO tried to do.
But yeah i can only ask the guys at cryptic to not go for this route. Offer free to play members the same basic content as paying member but make subscribing interesting with what this game excels at : Character Customization, add to that quality of life things like more char slots, and all the others stuff you already have.
But please just drop the Custom Char for Subscribers only thing. That's an absolute no-go. And there is no excuse to still do it when there are more then enough options to implement it differently. (like an unlockable one-time-buy-it feature)

[Archived Post]

Read the first 2 pages and just wanted to add something :

If i can not have Custom Characters, i wont even download the F2P client, it's as simple as that.
Having the ability to unlock those for a one time fee would be the perfect solution, if cryptic doesn't see that and instead as so many other F2P models in recent times ops for "well we call it f2p but in reality you can't really play for free" then that's that.

I was so glad when i checked out their f2p model so far and there was no ******** along the lines of "well you only get to level x" or "you only get the first 4 zones". That alone i a huge step up from what LOTRO tried to do.
But yeah i can only ask the guys at cryptic to not go for this route. Offer free to play members the same basic content as paying member but make subscribing interesting with what this game excels at : Character Customization, add to that quality of life things like more char slots, and all the others stuff you already have.
But please just drop the Custom Char for Subscribers only thing. That's an absolute no-go. And there is no excuse to still do it when there are more then enough options to implement it differently. (like an unlockable one-time-buy-it feature)
Then I guess you wont be playing for free. If there was a lot more content or something else that could be gated and sold, then they might have left power customization in. As it is, they have kept the most valuable thing in this game for paying customers. It is just the way it is.

[Archived Post]

Read the first 2 pages and just wanted to add something :

If i can not have Custom Characters, i wont even download the F2P client, it's as simple as that.

Okay, bye then.

Flippancy aside...

Having the ability to unlock those for a one time fee would be the perfect solution, if cryptic doesn't see that and instead as so many other F2P models in recent times ops for "well we call it f2p but in reality you can't really play for free" then that's that.

But yes, you can play for free. You can make a hero and fly around Millennium City. Technically (and legally) that is "playing the game for free"

What it is not is "Playing the game the way YOU think you should be able to, for free."

add to that quality of life things like more char slots, and all the others stuff you already have.
But please just drop the Custom Char for Subscribers only thing. That's an absolute no-go. And there is no excuse to still do it when there are more then enough options to implement it differently. (like an unlockable one-time-buy-it feature)

Really, once again, this just boils down to another post that says:

"I want all the important bits I care about to be in the F2P model, and I'm going to attempt to look magnanimous by offering all the bits I don't care about up for the subscription model."

Quite honestly, with the number of people who have asked for some form of power customization to be in the F2P model, I think that demonstrates that Cryptic have hit the nail -right- on the head. That's the bit everyone wants. So, that's the bit they're gonna charge you a sub for.

If it isn't worth 15 bucks a month to you, then I guess you don't want it that bad.

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Cryptic hopes that the F2P model will attract new players who will then either: buy some things in the store, or decide to sub to get the Gold benefits. The F2P model presented is designed to make money. Cryptic is a business. Businesses have the right to design a business plan any way they want as long as said plan is legal.

Under the current P2P plan, ongoing access to the game requires paying a monthly fee. Players who stopped paying said fee had no access to their characters at all. Under the F2P plan, to have access to those characters as they exist under the P2P plan, they need to keep paying. Nothing has changed for current subscribers.

The F2P plan is not designed to allow current subscribers to continue playing as they can now without paying. The F2P plan is not designed to keep existing players on the servers who don't want to spend money. Nor should it be.

[Archived Post]

If i can not have Custom Characters, i wont even download the F2P client, it's as simple as that. Obviously the custom power and color options are as important as they thought then, since they would rather you keep your subscription :D

The F2P plan is not designed to allow current subscribers to continue playing as they can now without paying. The F2P plan is not designed to keep existing players on the servers who don't want to spend money. Nor should it be. Well said indeed.

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The F2P plan is not designed to allow current subscribers to continue playing as they can now without paying.

That's well put, but with respect that's not what's being requested - what's being requested is an intermediate step of being able to continue to play a certain fraction of of the game as they do now, either without paying (if Cryptic is feeling generous with say one or two "favourite" toons as per DDO) or indeed for a fee slightly less than a totally new player would pay.

For f2p to work, there has to be something attractive for every prospective level of player. At the moment, as an occasional subber, there's no incentive for me to play Silver, because I have not intention of playing the Archetypes, just not interested in them. I sunk a lot of time, love and care into my toons, and we've shared a lot of adventures together. If I can't play them, that's a bit of a discincentive for me to even bother with Silver.

I could open a Silver accont - but why? I might indeed come to enjoy a fresh AT toon I played just as much as my old favourites, but having it be on a separate account from where the bulk of my other toons are, and keeping track of what I could and couldn't do on Silver vs. my next return to Gold on the other account,would just be a minor hassle I don't really need.

So I'll just stick to my usual pattern of subbing on and off (and what would make me sub on permanently would of course be new content - I can conceive that I'd become a continuous subber if there was about half as much content again in the game as there is now, because as it is, as an altoholic, I periodically get sick of playing the same contnet over and over again - it's great content, but there's only so much repetition of it you can stand, and more content would ease that, as it would ensure a sufficiency of time break before you had to play a given bit of content again, given a certain degree of altoholism).

On the other hand, with an intermediate step of being able to play ONE OR TWO of my old toons untouched, as they were (minus access to APs, of course), I have an incentive to still play the game a bit inbetween times when I'm not addicted to it. There are often times in "off" months when I have a hankering to play the game that isn't yet a sweaty palmed rush of addiction. With Silver status, then I could still tootle around on one or two toons as they were, and I'd be adding to the population and ambience of the game, giving advice on chat, teaming up and explaining the virtues of CO to people, etc., etc. In those fallow periods, I'm not going to be going on a "burn" with several characters alternating continuosly, as I do in my "on" months, but I'll still pop in occasionally. I will also continue to buy the odd thing in the C-Store.

Then when I resub then I just pick up where I left off with ALL my beloved toons, and have unhindered access to the APs again.

In the event that more content is added then I will probably sub to CO continously (as I did CoX for a couple of years).

Now, I'm not saying everybody's like me - but surely some people out there will be sharing some of those characteristic patterns of desire with me? Am I a weird anomaly?

No, Silver+ (which I'd prefer to Bronze) would be an intermediate step between Silver and Gold, that's what's being, not requested so much as suggested. (Note: the virtue of "Silver+" is that it gives Cryptic headroom to add some super-special "Gold+" status in the future, if they can think of something to sell for it).

[Archived Post]

I still believe Cryptic should rethink this idea regarding the custom archetypes.

Speaking for myself, I've unsubscribed Champions a few times already. Got away, played a few other games... and the only thing that brought me back to Champions was the ability to create my own hero, instead of using someone else's idea.

Whe I saw the F2P launch, I was happy about bringing my friends along. But let's face it - most of them play wow, and they won't subscribe to another game. They simply won't.

They might try F2P.... but Champions with a class-based system is a less-than-average game, period.

----


I think Custom Class Unlocks should be avaliable at the C-Store.

To compensate and generate some cash, Cryptic could forever refrain from giving free retcons to silver players (even after major balance patches).

Or maybe create a minor c-point fee like 15 cryptic points per power for partial retcons.

Hell, you could even lock regular ingame retcons and leave silver players only with paid full retcons.

Whatever you do... you can find alternate ways of revenue. But do not lock players away from custom classes. You'll be ruining a big part of their game experience and F2P.

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Cryptic would not restrict access to custom power choices if they did not think that was a premium feature of their game.

Sure, they could make this premium feature free to attract more F2P customers, and with more F2P customers comes the hope of more C-Store purchases. But its probably more in their interest that they withhold access to their best feature in order to attract paying subscribers.

In the case of CO, Customization > Content, it would be silly to give customization away to attract F2Pers in hopes they'll subscribe for, um, lets see what's left, a few gold costumes parts, adventure packs, um...

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i think limiting customization for silver players would be a bad thing
yes, i would be a silver player, but if cryptic still sees money, instead of a game where people can have fun (which also makes their walllets filled more), then i will say "no"

i know people will now say its good they see money, but i think i remember a time where people were angry about that fact

all i say that giving silver players enough freedom to make alot what they like, will make them happier, and want more, so they go gold
even i would get char slots as a silver player, if the game has nice customization, and not very limited, that would let me leave again (i left the demo a long time ago, until i heard about this)

they could keep alot of silver players, who will buy char slots and stuff... IF the game isnt too limited, thats a fact (dont start on asking me if i make own games or not, cuz thats dumb, and has nothing to do with it)

for example, i wanted to leave gw cuz it was boring, but they will give us something which makes us free to choose how to play (pugs or solo), and that made a huge lot of people happy, and they havent even done it yet

lets see what they'll do, or will they let people leave once again? time will tell, but its up to them :)

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To compensate and generate some cash, Cryptic could forever refrain from giving free retcons to silver players (even after major balance patches).

That is not a very good idea (I had stronger words, but I like to keep things lite and friendly). Can you imagine the flack Cryptic would get with every single patch with people assuming that Cryptic is making changes to force people to buy retcons?




all i say that giving silver players enough freedom to make alot what they like, will make them happier, and want more, so they go gold

And why would they go gold again? If they are given 95% of the games content and 100% of the games customization, where is the incentive to go gold?

[Archived Post]

Custom power selection should be sub only. It's the biggest draw to CO (except maybe the costume creator) and therefore should only be available to those who actively support the game by paying for it.

It seems a lot of people assume that the silver archetypes are going to be completely useless. Will a silver AT be as useful/flexible as a custom gold? Probably not, however Cryptic is most likely doing their best to ensure every silver AT can play through and enjoy the game. I suspect that many concept characters will find an AT very similar to their build.

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And why would they go gold again? If they are given 95% of the games content and 100% of the games customization, where is the incentive to go gold?
yeah sure, full custmoization.
except for all the gold costumes and costumes you still have to purcase, not to mention the limit of just 1 costume slot.
if they remove the custom powers part they remove 95% for the whole reason to play this game yes, but for what i can see, and with the recent SOTG, the reason to pay for gold is to remove around 60% of the game's limits.

95% of the games content is inclusive adventure packs, 4 costume slots, 5 bag slots and a whole lot of gold-only stuff.
the small 5% you're talking about is nothing more then the power tinting and gold TP's, really no more.


ill say this again but for the last time, sad that i got to repeat but anyway:
removing the best part of the game from silver is asking for scaring ppl away, so be generous or be bankrupted.
your choice.

[Archived Post]

95% of the games content is inclusive adventure packs, 4 costume slots, 5 bag slots and a whole lot of gold-only stuff.
the small 5% you're talking about is nothing more then the power tinting and gold TP's, really no more.


ill say this again but for the last time, sad that i got to repeat but anyway:
removing the best part of the game from silver is asking for scaring ppl away, so be generous or be bankrupted.
your choice.
By 95% of the game's content, I was referring to Canada, Desert, Millennium City, Monster Island, Lemuria, and Vibora Bay. All both of the APs make the last 5%.

There is a real problem if you give too much away for free. If this game was full of content, then I would be right there with you saying that they shouldn't keep out the custom frameworks...but there is a severe lack of content. There is nothing to gate to create a need to spend money. As such, the Cryptic team has gated the customization of characters as the major sellable item they have.

You say "be generous or be bankrupted", but I see it as "be generous AND be bankrupted". And they are being generous for giving away a majority of their game.

[Archived Post]

And why would they go gold again? If they are given 95% of the games content and 100% of the games customization, where is the incentive to go gold?

i dont think people will stay silver only cuz of customization, people will have to buy alot just to get more ingame, and not everything will be available for silver

think about it, its not that the whole gold membership will be useless with just that part for free
and if you think it is, then i hope cryptic will be smarter than just think that the whole game is about customization

some people only like the customization of CO, but most others like more than just that
without the freedom of customization of the game, there's no real silver membership
think about why they do this.... the demo was too limited, and if they do it again... another way, but still dont give silver players enough space to see how the game goes, they will lose again, and then only 2 ways are left:

1. make it all free and put up some stuff in c store
2. cryptic quits and its all over

giving a game without enough options wont attract people, it will instead let people leave once again
and as far as i've seen, this game had many players leaving cuz it was boring

people will get gold for even more freedom of choices, like expansions and things they may make in the future

we'll see who wins this round eh?
i mean, they had a tiny demo, didnt do anything about it, and now this happened, next time they may have to quit and let people get it for free... with offline play, unless they use the right servers to make it free for 100% online

i've seen free mmo's which have enough without paying stuff
telling the people that agree with this they gotta play those games, will only scare away more people, so cryptic wont do that

my next (maybe last) question for this game is: will they make it this time, or will they lose too much to continue?

that'll be the next thing i'll see a while after they made silver and gold groups

ps. this may be my last post about it, as not much people think their own ways and have mountains of money they can giveaway, so they buy mmo's with monthly fees, and then act like they know how it works at cryptic... or in MMO's themselves...

i'll check out once i hear something about it, for now... i enjoy GW, as we get something most people want.... more FREEDOM :D

[Archived Post]

Custom power selection should be sub only. It's the biggest draw to CO (except maybe the costume creator) and therefore should only be available to those who actively support the game by paying for it.

It seems a lot of people assume that the silver archetypes are going to be completely useless. Will a silver AT be as useful/flexible as a custom gold? Probably not, however Cryptic is most likely doing their best to ensure every silver AT can play through and enjoy the game. I suspect that many concept characters will find an AT very similar to their build.

This certainly makes sense to me.

And I don't know why folks continue to insist that Cryptic is "removing the best part of the game" from anybody. Nothing is being removed at all; options are being added.

I am confident that the archetypes are not going to suck, and look forward to road-testing them myself. But I enjoy custom characters, and I can still continue to play them because no changes being proposed by Cryptic will affect what I get with my subscription in a negative manner.

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Forgive me if this had be sugested before, but maybe they could make one custom charactor slot a Vet reward. Say 500 day, Sort of a nod to those who sub'd from the begining. That way if they have to drop down to silver they get to keep one toon, after Cryotic got a fair chunck of change from them. That would encurage people to stay sub'd or maybe sub up until they get thier slot.

[Archived Post]

what i forgot to mention is:
silver players should have fun, so that they buy more, or become gold
too much limits will let em doubt that gold will have that much more
(demo did the same thing, also was too limited)

kill the purpose in the F2P version, and people will go back to other MMO's, or find free MMO's which have more

once more:
silver players should have their reason to buy more, or become gold, but must have had fun in silver

i know not everything must be free in silver, but too little is bad

this is my 2nd part of my previous post, hope it makes sense to some of you (at least)

[Archived Post]

i dont think people will stay silver only cuz of customization, people will have to buy alot just to get more ingame, and not everything will be available for silver

think about it, its not that the whole gold membership will be useless with just that part for free
and if you think it is, then i hope cryptic will be smarter than just think that the whole game is about customization

some people only like the customization of CO, but most others like more than just that
without the freedom of customization of the game, there's no real silver membership
think about why they do this.... the demo was too limited, and if they do it again... another way, but still dont give silver players enough space to see how the game goes, they will lose again, and then only 2 ways are left:

1. make it all free and put up some stuff in c store
2. cryptic quits and its all over

giving a game without enough options wont attract people, it will instead let people leave once again
and as far as i've seen, this game had many players leaving cuz it was boring

people will get gold for even more freedom of choices, like expansions and things they may make in the future

we'll see who wins this round eh?
i mean, they had a tiny demo, didnt do anything about it, and now this happened, next time they may have to quit and let people get it for free... with offline play, unless they use the right servers to make it free for 100% online

i've seen free mmo's which have enough without paying stuff
telling the people that agree with this they gotta play those games, will only scare away more people, so cryptic wont do that

my next (maybe last) question for this game is: will they make it this time, or will they lose too much to continue?

that'll be the next thing i'll see a while after they made silver and gold groups

ps. this may be my last post about it, as not much people think their own ways and have mountains of money they can giveaway, so they buy mmo's with monthly fees, and then act like they know how it works at cryptic... or in MMO's themselves...

i'll check out once i hear something about it, for now... i enjoy GW, as we get something most people want.... more FREEDOM :D

If all of the content (except for Adventure Packs released every three to four months) are free, and build customization is free, and more than 90% of the appearance customization options are free, there is very little reason to subscribe for Gold Access. Under those circumstances an AP in the C-Store would have to cost as much as 2-3 months sub in order for a subscription to provide as much value as just buying them alacarte. Do you really think that people would pay $30-$45 each for adventure packs (in case you are not aware, AP's are 1-2 hour adventures) ? That seems a high price tag for 1-2 hours of play.

I play Guild Wars too. Have since 2005. I cant play a character who can fly, Teleport (The Assassin and Necromancer options are too limited to qualify as real teleport IMO), Tunnel, etc (jump over s small tree branch ?). In GW. I cant make a character that looks like a robot cowboy, looks like a Catholic priest with two monster sized pistols, one that uses two swords, one that can be simultaneously a powerful warrior and a sorceror (A shock warrior is not much of a caster)...

GW is my favorite game, and it has alot of freedom not seen in most class based games, but if you feel that it has more freedom than CO, even the Archetye version, you might want to look a bit closer.



yeah sure, full custmoization.
except for all the gold costumes and costumes you still have to purcase, not to mention the limit of just 1 costume slot.
if they remove the custom powers part they remove 95% for the whole reason to play this game yes, but for what i can see, and with the recent SOTG, the reason to pay for gold is to remove around 60% of the game's limits.

95% of the games content is inclusive adventure packs, 4 costume slots, 5 bag slots and a whole lot of gold-only stuff.
the small 5% you're talking about is nothing more then the power tinting and gold TP's, really no more.
.

Two costume slots are available for free to Silver players.

Nearly 100% of the playable content is available for free (perhaps 95%).

100% of the leveling content is available for free.

100% of the gear needed for effective play is free.

Bag space means only that someone who chooses not to pay to play the game takes a little bit longer to gain resources. Resources have very little importance in CO, making bag space a QoL matter, not a serious content affecting issue.

More than 90% of the appearance customization options will be free.

So, averaged out we are talking about 90-95% of the totality of the game will be free, and thats not enough ?

[Archived Post]

i dont think people will stay silver only cuz of customization, people will have to buy alot just to get more ingame, and not everything will be available for silver

What are they going to buy? What is left after customization? Again, if this game had oodles of content, I would be in agreement with you. This game does not have sufficient content to sell. So please tell me what people are going to be spending money on, because I dont see anything they could. Sure, they could get an extra costume slot...maybe an extra bag slot...maybe a costume set or two...then that's it. So for (random number generator) $30 they get a lifetime pass. Who would buy Demonflame? Or Serpent Lantern? Its one repeatable mission that is fun once and a chore every other time.


giving a game without enough options wont attract people, it will instead let people leave once again
and as far as i've seen, this game had many players leaving cuz it was boring

And giving away too much of a game will attract players that wont spend money because they dont have to.

Cryptic is a business. They are in it to make money. If they make the customers happy in the process, hey, that's a bonus.


ps. this may be my last post about it, as not much people think their own ways and have mountains of money they can giveaway, so they buy mmo's with monthly fees, and then act like they know how it works at cryptic... or in MMO's themselves...

i'll check out once i hear something about it, for now... i enjoy GW, as we get something most people want.... more FREEDOM :D
Yeah, I think Im done with this argument as well. I feel that people will be able to have a lot of fun with this game once it goes F2P without having to invest money into it, and that should be enough for them. Asking for more once you're being given a lot is just silly.

[Archived Post]

Forgive me if this had be sugested before, but maybe they could make one custom charactor slot a Vet reward. Say 500 day, Sort of a nod to those who sub'd from the begining. That way if they have to drop down to silver they get to keep one toon, after Cryotic got a fair chunck of change from them. That would encurage people to stay sub'd or maybe sub up until they get thier slot.
Its been mentioned. The same dividing line is there. I believe that if you give someone a Gold slot, you discourage them from subscribing.

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Its been mentioned. The same dividing line is there. I believe that if you give someone a Gold slot, you discourage them from subscribing.

I think that too but if they sub for 500 days. To get it they've alread put in $240. After they are silver for a while they may get sick of playing the one toon in a game built for altaholics. So they can either re-sub to access their other toons, or they can buy Retcons from the C-store to change up their custom slot . Either way I think they'll end up spending more cash.

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I think that too but if they sub for 500 days. To get it they've alread put in $240. After they are silver for a while they may get sick of playing the one toon in a game built for altaholics. So they can either re-sub to access their other toons, or they can buy Retcons from the C-store to change up their custom slot . Either way I think they'll end up spending more cash.

As much as Ive been against the idea of Gold character slots as microtransactions, I find it highly unlikely that someone who has subbed for 500 days would be satisfied with just one customizable character. Unless, of course, somehow we see a truly stupendous amount of new content introduced between now and then (Im one of those players that really does prefer one main character in a game).

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As much as Ive been against the idea of Gold character slots as microtransactions, I find it highly unlikely that someone who has subbed for 500 days would be satisfied with just one customizable character. Unless, of course, somehow we see a truly stupendous amount of new content introduced between now and then (Im one of those players that really does prefer one main character in a game).


I have failed to find a compromise, I must now cry a little on the inside. Badgers never cry on th outside. :)
I knew there were multiple holes in my plan. Time to fall back to my original position, that being "I have lifetime sub as long as the game keeps rolling I'm happy. Nanna nanna boo boo." :)

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I have failed to find a compromise, I must now cry a little on the inside. Badgers never cry on th outside. :)
I knew there were multiple holes in my plan. Time to fall back to my original position, that being "I have lifetime sub as long as the game keeps rolling I'm happy. Nanna nanna boo boo." :)

Actually I was agreeing with you.

If a 500 day vet would not be satisfied with just one Gold character slot there would be little problem with selling them one. They might still be encouraged to subscribe when they tired of that one character.

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I'm quite certain of 2 things.

1 - Open power customization will not be available to Silver players.

2 - Players planning to switch to Silver status will continue asking for open power customization anyways.

;)

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Is this argument still going on? I guess I'm not surprised. More for less is the way of the American life.

ill say this again but for the last time, sad that i got to repeat but anyway:
removing the best part of the game from silver is asking for scaring ppl away, so be generous or be bankrupted.
your choice.

Heh, it amazes me that you cannot see what you're asking for here. They'll be scaring people away? Really? Those who are most likely going to be playing for free weren't playing in the first place. What money is Cryptic losing there? To me this is a way for Cryptic to generate even more income. It's a HUGE marketing incentive to bring in new players and make them want to sub.

I know y'all have arguments of how they'll still sub if power customization was free but can you honestly sit there and say that there'll be just as many sub this way than if they were to see customization as something they could have? I don't. People generally want what everyone else has. And by allowing them to play restricted classes they're likely going to give in and fork over cash to play what their friends are.

Same concept goes for F2P models that have several box sale upgrades. What you're asking is basically asking Guild Wars to make new content free for those that only purchased the first expansion. How would they make money? Cryptic needs income to keep the lights on. Giving everything away or 'being generous,' as you say, is just bad management of a business.

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Actually I was agreeing with you.

If a 500 day vet would not be satisfied with just one Gold character slot there would be little problem with selling them one. They might still be encouraged to subscribe when they tired of that one character.

Well that's different then! Badger for the win! :) In your face self doubt! (The Badgers only true nemesis)

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The Badgers only true nemesis
I thought snakes were the badgers true nemesis.

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I thought snakes were the badgers true nemesis.

Amongst the Badger's many true nesesis are such diverse elements as Self Doubt, Snakes, and (of course) the Comfy Chair.

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Amongst the Badger's many true nesesis are such diverse elements as Self Doubt, Snakes, and (of course) the Comfy Chair.

The comfy chair has defeated me many times.

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Amongst the Badger's many true nesesis are such diverse elements as Self Doubt, Snakes, and (of course) the Comfy Chair.The comfy chair has defeated me many times.
So the comfy chair thingy...is that something that we ALL can agree on? Man, it took 12 pages to get to something that is universally agreed upon.

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Yeah...comfy chair. Many-a-times I have sat down, needed to do something, and then can't get up. That chair is evil. But oh soooo ... uuhh ... comfy. :)

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So the comfy chair thingy...is that something that we ALL can agree on? Man, it took 12 pages to get to something that is universally agreed upon.


/signed

to char

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The extremely high level of customization in Champions Online is what sets it apart from its competitors, more than anything else. Faster, more fluid combat, and a wider variety of zones help as well. Giving those things to non-paying-players doesn't make any financial sense at all. You don't make Silver awesome to get people to buy Gold, you make Gold awesome, (and Silver, somewhat sucky in comparison).

What Cryptic really needs to aim for here, is to make the Silver Member experience as close to CoX as possible, while improving the current CO pay experience for Gold Members. This is hard to do as CoX has a lot more content available after 5+ years, but it should be the idea.

Why pay for CoX when CO can offer something similar for free?