When is CO getting the Foundry(UGC) and how will this work with F2P?

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As many of you probably know, Cryptic is working on a UGC system called the "Foundry" (http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=185711) which will be implemented in all of their games according to previous comments. First will be STO, then presumably CO and finally in Neverwinter upon release. Have there been any comments upon when this system will be added to CO? And how will UGC work with F2P?

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I do not know what a UGC system is.

Universal game something, maybe?

But whatever it stands for, what is it supposed to do?

Why would their be issues if F2P is involved?

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UGC-User Generated Content. Make your own missions.

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I do not know what a UGC system is.

Universal game something, maybe?

But whatever it stands for, what is it supposed to do?

Why would their be issues if F2P is involved?

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=185711

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As many of you probably know, Cryptic is working on a UGC system called the "Foundry" which will be implemented in all of their games according to previous comments. First will be STO, then presumably CO and finally in Neverwinter upon release. Have there been any comments upon when this system will be added to CO? And how will UGC work with F2P?
Since STO is getting it first, ask on the STO forums.

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User Generated Content. It better be coming to CO eventually. I would guess that you'd have to pay for the tools, but perhaps you could run the missions for free? Just a guess, of course. I would hate for them to decide not to bring the tools to the game because of this transition. But they've never confirmed it was coming.

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Since STO is getting it first, ask on the STO forums.

My questions have nothing to do with STO.

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I know it's something that a lot of us want to do, but it's not on the table for Free to Play.

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As in not on the table for CO now that its F2P? or not in the cards for the freeloader side?

If this is really something thats being dropped due to the swapover your making a mistake, people would pay for that easily...... that and you'd be doing exactly what a lot of us are afraid of. Stoping actual content now that subs arn't your focus.

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I know it's something that a lot of us want to do, but it's not on the table for Free to Play.
Odd decision. In many ways, UGC is a better match for F2P than for conventional MMOs, though I can certainly see access to the UGC creator being a C-store purchase (or some variant -- say, creating is free, but being able to enter your creation outside of test mode, or invite other people into your creation, is a C-store purchase).

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My questions have nothing to do with STO.
Except we know that they are getting it first. Ask them when they are going to get it, then we can know when it could possibly be ported over. Heck, I dont think we've even gotten concrete confirmation that we are even getting it.

As in not on the table for CO now that its F2P? or not in the cards for the freeloader side?

If this is really something thats being dropped due to the swapover your making a mistake, people would pay for that easily...... that and you'd be doing exactly what a lot of us are afraid of. Stoping actual content now that subs arn't your focus.
The game isnt going F2P, but there will be an option to use that as a payment method. With that, I take it that UGC will be only available to Gold members.

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Except we know that they are getting it first. Ask them when they are going to get it, then we can know when it could possibly be ported over. Heck, I dont think we've even gotten concrete confirmation that we are even getting it.

Perhaps you didnt actually read my post, but I asked when CO would be getting UGC, not STO. The STO team isnt involved with when CO is getting UGC, so there would be no point in asking them.

In response to Lex's post, I too would like to know do you mean that CO wont be getting this sytem now, or just not the free version? Thanks for your response!

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If this is really something thats being dropped due to the swapover your making a mistake, people would pay for that easily...... that and you'd be doing exactly what a lot of us are afraid of. Stoping actual content now that subs arn't your focus.

That pretty much sums it up.

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Except we know that they are getting it first. Ask them when they are going to get it, then we can know when it could possibly be ported over. Heck, I dont think we've even gotten concrete confirmation that we are even getting it.


The game isnt going F2P, but there will be an option to use that as a payment method. With that, I take it that UGC will be only available to Gold members.

We already know when we're getting it in STO, well we have a rough estimate anyway. Bu that isn't exactly the primary question being asked. The real question was how the shift to the new model will effect the Foundry's addition and function in CO. A question that can really only be answered by CO staff.

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Perhaps you didnt actually read my post, but I asked when CO would be getting UGC, not STO. The STO team isnt involved with when CO is getting UGC, so there would be no point in asking them.

I just thought that they might know when they are getting it. We haven't even been told *IF* we are getting it. Just trying to help, sorry...I wont do that again.

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We never were told that we were going to get this. It was on the list of things that the would like to do but had no timeframe for. I think what Lexeme was saying is that this is not something that is going to be included as part of the F2P rollout in First Quarter. It's still on the Like to do list with no real timeframe for implementation. So nothing has, as far as I can tell, charnged with regard to UGC coming to CO.

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We never were told that we were going to get this. It was on the list of things that the would like to do but had no timeframe for. I think what Lexeme was saying is that this is not something that is going to be included as part of the F2P rollout in First Quarter. It's still on the Like to do list with no real timeframe for implementation. So nothing has, as far as I can tell, charnged with regard to UGC coming to CO.

That's my guess as well, the wording sounded more like "it's not on the table for Season 3" or "It won't be making it in time for issue 20" Not that it's been pulled completely.

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I have a feeling Foundry Tools won't be added to CO now that it's going F2P. Why? Not because they can't 'gate' it per se; they can; but I think they're worried you might get folks who start using it maliciously; and they figure trying to keep that under control will just kill any other development of the game and inundate CS.

Anytime someone get their Foundry access removed, they can just create another acount, sub for a month; and in that month go nuts. (again, that's the logic I can see as to why they won't add it onto a F2P game.)

I honestly am still dissapointed they're taking CO the F2P route (as trust me Dev resources will be focused on nothing but MT content; and I do believe any real expansion of the game will suffer for a long time because of the change (yes, it was bad before, but it'll just get worse); but, hey I guess it's better than just closing the game down completely (which might still happen if F2P doesn't perform for CO as the Atari corporate suits expect.)

But, as has been said, with this game going F2P; I don't see any Foundy tools being added or unlocked for the game - as they will want you to pay for all future content.

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We really, really need this tool. Make it Gold-only and you'll make ludicrous amounts of money off of it.

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As others have said the UGC tools are going to STO first, so the earliest you'll seem them is sometime after STO season 3, which is when I believe they're supposed to go live, and they definitely won't be ready in time for the transition to free to play.

If/when we decide to hook them up to champs, I have no idea whether they'd be free, subscription or microtransacted, that's all up to the producers to decide, and I think it's too far out for any decisions about that yet.

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As others have said the UGC tools are going to STO first, so the earliest you'll seem them is sometime after STO season 3, which is when I believe they're supposed to go live, and they definitely won't be ready in time for the transition to free to play.

If/when we decide to hook them up to champs, I have no idea whether they'd be free, subscription or microtransacted, that's all up to the producers to decide, and I think it's too far out for any decisions about that yet.

Wow, so its not even being planned at this point? Thats a shame. But thanks for the clarification.

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I have a feeling Foundry Tools won't be added to CO now that it's going F2P. Why? Not because they can't 'gate' it per se; they can; but I think they're worried you might get folks who start using it maliciously; and they figure trying to keep that under control will just kill any other development of the game and inundate CS.

Anytime someone get their Foundry access removed, they can just create another acount, sub for a month; and in that month go nuts. (again, that's the logic I can see as to why they won't add it onto a F2P game.)

I honestly am still dissapointed they're taking CO the F2P route (as trust me Dev resources will be focused on nothing but MT content; and I do believe any real expansion of the game will suffer for a long time because of the change (yes, it was bad before, but it'll just get worse); but, hey I guess it's better than just closing the game down completely (which might still happen if F2P doesn't perform for CO as the Atari corporate suits expect.)

But, as has been said, with this game going F2P; I don't see any Foundy tools being added or unlocked for the game - as they will want you to pay for all future content.

Your reasoning doesn't make any sense. people would have been able to use them "maliciously" no matter what. the change over to F2P doesn't matter in that regard. There were plenty of missions created for the purpose of trolling in the CoH Architect, you know what happened to them? They were voted down to the bottom of the list and reported by those who played them. Everyone else either ignored them because they were obvious trolls or never knew about them. Eventually they slowed to a crawl. Which is exactly what would happen here.

The thing is, trolls feed on reactions, when you make UGC, the only real reaction you would see is that someone voted it down and it was removed, so there really is nothing gained from a trolling point of view, so it's not worth their time.


As others have said the UGC tools are going to STO first, so the earliest you'll seem them is sometime after STO season 3, which is when I believe they're supposed to go live, and they definitely won't be ready in time for the transition to free to play.

If/when we decide to hook them up to champs, I have no idea whether they'd be free, subscription or microtransacted, that's all up to the producers to decide, and I think it's too far out for any decisions about that yet.

I would hope it would be tiered as such

Gold - Full access: 3 slots available to create missions with more available to purchase, run missions, rate, comment to the creator etc...
Silver - can run missions, cannot rate or comment (for the same reasoning that they cannot use broadcast channels). Can purchase the ability to create missions with 1 initial slot. More available in the C-Store.

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As others have said the UGC tools are going to STO first, so the earliest you'll seem them is sometime after STO season 3, which is when I believe they're supposed to go live, and they definitely won't be ready in time for the transition to free to play.

If/when we decide to hook them up to champs, I have no idea whether they'd be free, subscription or microtransacted, that's all up to the producers to decide, and I think it's too far out for any decisions about that yet.

We understand that it'll be a ways off still, but your initial post made it sound like any plans to include it have been dropped due to Champs going FTP. Thanks for clearing that up.

But seriously, please understand how desired a feature this is. It would bring in a whole crowd of players that want a super heroic creative outlet.

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We understand that it'll be a ways off still, but your initial post made it sound like any plans to include it have been dropped due to Champs going FTP. Thanks for clearing that up.

But seriously, please understand how desired a feature this is. It would bring in a whole crowd of players that want a super heroic creative outlet.

Agreed... I think UGC would be a huge addition to the game, if done properly...

I could understand their nerviousness of adding to to F2P; they may fear that it would cut into AP sales to Silver members. But if they made it Gold Access only, it would be a major incentive to fully subscribe and therefore increase revenue...

Or just C-Store the whole thing and charge a high amount; $15 or $20...

Really, done right UGC could be a cash cow for CO...

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Thanks for the news.

Do you think we might see any implementations of a limited scope mission generator of any kind in the spirit of the "City of " Newspaper/Radio missions so we can just beat up stuff?

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It probably won't be for the F2P masses, because you have to consider storage issues. Each story-arc created with the Foundry has to be stored somewhere... you know?

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It probably won't be for the F2P masses, because you have to consider storage issues. Each story-arc created with the Foundry has to be stored somewhere... you know?
Assuming Cryptic isn't letting people upload graphics or sound files, the disk space requirements are going to be inconsequential.

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Assuming Cryptic isn't letting people upload graphics or sound files, the disk space requirements are going to be inconsequential.And you say that because you have intimate knowledge on how they'll code and store their mission files? Don't forget that whatever the footprint of a story-arc is, it has to be multiplied by how many story-arcs a player is allowed to publish and then by the number of players actually using the feature, so... no, I don't see Cryptic allowing people to simply upload story-arcs without any sort of storage costs. Perhaps they'll do something like what CoH/V did, i.e. allow each player to store 3 missions for free and then offer ways to reclaim storage slots or buy more, but I doubt the 3-story-arc slot plan would be offered for free to f2p players.

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Yeah, it popped into my head some time after I posted that.

I wonder if Cryptic can let silver players have limited access to play them and none to make them, but gold users have unlimited access?
Ideally, let them see enough to make them want more, and they can either buy "tickets" to play through more UGC, or they will sign up for the ability to play through and create an unlimited amount.

Either way, as stated, it won't be an issue at all for a little while.

I just hope that they don't turn into farm systems, though, like they did in CoH.
I know that for some people that is all they will be, but I would like to see people be able to include story elements and create multi-mission stories.

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And you say that because you have intimate knowledge on how they'll code and store their mission files?
I say this because I know how other games have done the same thing, and it's always some combination of laying out tiles (which takes up a couple of bytes per tile, and I think tiles are on the order of 5-10' in CO), scripting (which takes up up space like a text file), and simple flat text (chat strings and the like). Neverwinter Nights (Bioware version) is a perfect example. There are reasons not to make UGC F2P, but space isn't really one of them.

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I say this because I know how other games have done the same thing, and it's always some combination of laying out tiles (which takes up a couple of bytes per tile, and I think tiles are on the order of 5-10' in CO), scripting (which takes up up space like a text file), and simple flat text (chat strings and the like). Neverwinter Nights (Bioware version) is a perfect example. There are reasons not to make UGC F2P, but space isn't really one of them.
When they added AE to CoH, they specifically stated that we were limited to 3 arcs because of how much room each one takes up.

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There are reasons not to make UGC F2P, but space isn't really one of them.When you multiply those kilobytes across (hopefully) millions of story-arcs... yes, you're starting to worry about the overhead and how to manage it, and you also want to make sure you're being well compensated for your efforts. Don't belittle things based on the size of one story-arc, it's short-sighted as obviously Cryptic would like their game(s) to benefit from the Foundry for years to come...

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When you multiply those kilobytes across (hopefully) millions of story-arcs...
If Cryptic gets millions of story-arcs, they've got enough players to be able to afford the terabyte of disk that might take.

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Everyone can use the content, but only subscribers can make the content. Problem solved. Silver users get less customization, but no less ability.

Or Let silver users post 1 story arc, and subscribers make 3-5. And gate silver users so you can only make them after 20 hours, like they're doing with other abilities like chats.

But I'm extremely dissapointed to hear there not even any current plans to put the UGC engine in CO. The hope of one day getting UGC is one of the reasons i started playing, even though I realized it might be a while before we got it. But STO is getting it in at least 6 months, and theres no plans to give it to CO? Total BS!

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Ever since CoX and its AE system disaster... I have been nervous and or anti-UGC. But hopefully if/when Cryptic implements a UGC in CO that they will do so correctly. Making it a system that cannot be exploited the same way the AE was exploited in CoX.

I agree on the point of making the UGC gold member only.

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Ever since CoX and its AE system disaster... I have been nervous and or anti-UGC. But hopefully if/when Cryptic implements a UGC in CO that they will do so correctly. Making it a system that cannot be exploited the same way the AE was exploited in CoX.

I agree on the point of making the UGC gold member only.

You might want to give these two FAQs a read to address your concerns:

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=185711

http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=185900

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STO is the first game in the Cryptic pantheon that will have user-created missions. We're going to let them try it out, get it working, and see how players like it. We're very cognizant of problems other games have had with UGC, so Cryptic is being pretty careful with it.

Once we hammer out those things, we'll look at getting it into Champs. So, it certainly won't be happening right away at the F2P launch (which is what Lexeme meant by "not in F2P"). Whether or not building is open to Silver Players is a question we haven't really begun to even consider yet. We're waiting for a great system first. ;-)

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Ever since CoX and its AE system disaster... I have been nervous and or anti-UGC. But hopefully if/when Cryptic implements a UGC in CO that they will do so correctly. Making it a system that cannot be exploited the same way the AE was exploited in CoX.

I agree on the point of making the UGC gold member only.

How was it exploited? Serious question i left city of before AE was implemented. Were people just making levels to grind faster? I'm not sure why anyone would care about that here. tis fast enought to level anyway.

The only thing i could see exploited about a CO UGC engine is making huge maps with lots of the vibora bay enemies, so you could get the costume drops faster; and i'm not certain that would really be a bad thing.

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STO is the first game in the Cryptic pantheon that will have user-created missions. We're going to let them try it out, get it working, and see how players like it. We're very cognizant of problems other games have had with UGC, so Cryptic is being pretty careful with it.

Once we hammer out those things, we'll look at getting it into Champs. So, it certainly won't be happening right away at the F2P launch (which is what Lexeme meant by "not in F2P"). Whether or not building is open to Silver Players is a question we haven't really begun to even consider yet. We're waiting for a great system first. ;-)

I get what your saying about "seeing how it goes" with STO. However, regardless of what happens with STO, isnt NWN launching with a Foundry system? So its not really "how it goes" with STO that determines what other Cryptic games will have the Foundry, is it?

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How was it exploited? Serious question i left city of before AE was implemented. Were people just making levels to grind faster?
Yeah. On CO it's more likely you'd use it for things like crafted travel power grinds, an infinite stream of weak henchmen who drop mats would be useful. It's possible to make UGC non-grindworthy by adjusting how things like xp and drops work, but at that point it's likely to turn into a wasteland, unless UGC is used for RP or PvP maps (in both cases, xp for the match is kinda irrelevant).

Actually, dungeon-master mode PvP might be kinda interesting, though prolly hard to write.

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If Cryptic gets millions of story-arcs, they've got enough players to be able to afford the terabyte of disk that might take.If those players would actually pay somehow for the hosting of their missions, oh yeah, probably so. ;)

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If those players would actually pay somehow for the hosting of their missions, oh yeah, probably so. ;)
I would strongly expect UGC to involve some form of C-store transactions (maybe just for access, maybe for specific elements you might want to include in a map, maybe something else), but writing a mod is actually a rather time consuming activity; if you've got a million mods you've got several million players.

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How was it exploited? Serious question i left city of before AE was implemented. Were people just making levels to grind faster? I'm not sure why anyone would care about that here. tis fast enought to level anyway.

The only thing i could see exploited about a CO UGC engine is making huge maps with lots of the vibora bay enemies, so you could get the costume drops faster; and i'm not certain that would really be a bad thing.

The primary problem was that it launched with 150 - 200 badges most of which were along the lines of "Kill x custom badguys" and "Click x glowies" so missions were made to get all these badges in one go.

The second was that originally you could create a custom group out of nothing but healing NPCs and play against them still getting xp effectively giving free xp as most of the healing NPCs had no attacks. Also certain easy to destroy critters somehow made it through with ridiculous XP rewards.

This resulted in people hitting lvl 50 in two to three days including new players who had no idea how to play their toons. Needless to say any character who only had MA badges were normally refused teams and some of them hadn't even levelled up once. There was a major sweep resetting many MA Babies as they were called to level 1 when the MA rewards system was fixed.

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I am glad they are exercising caution in regard to implementing UGC here. Personally I think it destroyed COX - the outside world was already dying due to the numerous mechanisms to rush to the next door of the endless instance missions, then this came along and no-one needed to leave the architect office from 1-50 (which could also be accomplished in a very short time).

I would like to see a lot more developer created content before UGC, so that it is not just a crutch for limited content from the rest of the game. I also have lots of reservations about it, predominantly around farming/abuse and the amount of rubbish that is likely to be generated overweighing the few gems.