C-Store Item Boosts (damage boost, etc)

[Archived Post]

Straight from "State of the Game": 10/26/10

"Finally, it will come as no surprise that we're going to be adding a lot of things to the C-Store. Currently, we mainly sell costumes and service items. We will be adding a bunch of items and devices to the store. If you play other free-to-play games, many of these will be familiar: healing devices, energy refills, damage buffs, reward multipliers and things like that. We will also have some other things I think are pretty special."



The thing that has me and others worried is this; the item boosts? Can you please give us better details about them?

How much will they cost?
What exactly will they do?
When can they be used?
Duration?
How many uses per purchase of the item?
Can they be traded to others?
Can they be used in PvP?

It's common in some "F2P" games that they have such items, and getting into groups or raids "requires" them. Now, I understand no one is pointing a gun at me saying "I have to buy them" but I "have" to if I want to run (insert instance/raid here). I would hate to see certain "requirements" to run certain things in this game.

It's just unusual for a game that has a subscription fee attached, to throw in something like this that certain people "need" to buy additionally to do certain things. Again, I understand I don't "have" to buy these boosts, but if I want to experience certain parts of the game, and the player base "requires" us to consume these items, I would be 1) paying my subscription and 2) paying for the boosts... kind of ridiculous if you ask me.

I understand I, or anyone else has no understanding on these "boosts," but they have some of us worried.

[Archived Post]

CO will be a bit different than other F2P games (unless they change things around drastically) because you don't need the usual F2P boosts (EXP, Damage, Bags, etc) to get anywhere in the game. Especially with all the new areas to adventure in.

So only those who don't know how CO works (in other words, nobody that is or has been a subscriber) will get them. Unless they want to level even faster for some reason.

[Archived Post]

CO will be a bit different than other F2P games (unless they change things around drastically) because you don't need the usual F2P boosts (EXP, Damage, Bags, etc) to get anywhere in the game. Especially with all the new areas to adventure in.

So only those who don't know how CO works (in other words, nobody that is or has been a subscriber) will get them. Unless they want to level even faster for some reason.

You may be right, but there is a game I once played, and they added in these damage boosts, to only REMOVE our current damage via a patch, so we "had" to buy these boosts to play "normally" as we once did pre-patch... understand?

I just want details.

[Archived Post]

CO will be a bit different than other F2P games (unless they change things around drastically) because you don't need the usual F2P boosts (EXP, Damage, Bags, etc) to get anywhere in the game. Especially with all the new areas to adventure in.

So only those who don't know how CO works (in other words, nobody that is or has been a subscriber) will get them. Unless they want to level even faster for some reason.

Keep telling yourself that. Expect c-store items that will become necessary fro optimized play. I'm thinking things like 30 slot bags etc. Lifers will not get anything good for free, and I'm sure they will try to make lots of desireable cash store items.

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Keep telling yourself that. Expect c-store items that will become necessary fro optimized play. I'm thinking things like 30 slot bags etc. Lifers will not get anything good for free, and I'm sure they will try to make lots of desireable cash store items.

Exactly what I'm trying to get at.

It's one thing for a F2P game that has NO subscriptions to have such items, but to throw them in there WITH a game that has subscribing accounts. To me... uhg.. I just don't like it. I don't want to cut my time short here.

I just want the details on the current "boosts."

[Archived Post]

Bump. I see Dev posts on almost every other post except this one. Guessing we should be worried? Or are my questions and concerns not important? This could quite possibly be one of the most important topics if what you offer may reflect what other games offer as far as purchasing "boosts" or buffs for your character.


How much will they cost?
What exactly will they do?
When can they be used?
Duration?
How many uses per purchase of the item?
Can they be traded to others?
Can they be used in PvP?

[Archived Post]

You may be right, but there is a game I once played, and they added in these damage boosts, to only REMOVE our current damage via a patch, so we "had" to buy these boosts to play "normally" as we once did pre-patch... understand?

I just want details.

That's really nasty. Nerfing players to -make- them buy cash shop items. Ew.

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That's really nasty. Nerfing players to -make- them buy cash shop items. Ew.

It's more common than you think.

Look up Allods Online; patch 1.1 reviews. That's the last game I played that basically forced us to buy items from the cash shop to do every day tasks.

The only way I can see having to purchase said items in CO; is if they nerfed our damage in a patch, so we would "have" to buy these "boosts." Or, like others have questioned, including myself, would we "need" these to run certain instances with others, as they would "require" us to have said boosts to join.

[Archived Post]

It's more common than you think.

Look up Allods Online; patch 1.1 reviews. That's the last game I played that basically forced us to buy items from the cash shop to do every day tasks.

The only way I can see having to purchase said items in CO; is if they nerfed our damage in a patch, so we would "have" to buy these "boosts." Or, like others have questioned, including myself, would we "need" these to run certain instances with others, as they would "require" us to have said boosts to join.

As for the first, if they started doing that here, I think we'd all leave, honestly.

As for the second, if you get elitist players like that, it's maybe time to find some new friends. There's a reason I don't play WoW or any other game that allows for things like 'Gear inspection' and the like.

That's why I hang out with the great crowd of folks that I do. We solo a bit, team a bit, and never worry about stuff like that. CO has difficulty levels. And in terms of team synergies it's very flexible, so if one person's missing a power, you can usually cover it in multiple other ways. It's what I love about this organic system.

Shoot me a tell sometime.

[Archived Post]

You would think if something like that happened, everyone would leave, but it's happened in other games and people still stay for various reason. Such as, they've invested so much time already that it would be a waste to quit now, some like to "Pay to Win," or their friends in-game, or any other number of reasons.

I've played some games that were "Pay to Win" and I did invest a good chunk of change, much more than a monthly fee would ask for, which is why I think going F2P isn't a bad idea, but it does have consequences. I hope it works here, but I first would want to know how these buffs are going to look like.

[Archived Post]

As for the first, if they started doing that here, I think we'd all leave, honestly.

As for the second, if you get elitist players like that, it's maybe time to find some new friends. There's a reason I don't play WoW or any other game that allows for things like 'Gear inspection' and the like.

It's really not even remotely apples::apples to compare purchased power ups vs WoW. In WoW, the gear is only earned; you can't buy your way into it. And it is intentionally designed as a progression system. Basically, in every expansion, you level your way with "levels" until the cap, and then you level with gear after. (So if you're in T9 gear, you can tackle T10 content; if you're in T7 gear, you can tackle T8 content. There are obviously exceptions - a good group can carry someone, and skill matters sufficiently that it is probably worth a tier or two of gear, although there is some content that basically requires top skill AND top gear.)

Anyhow, the "gear score" mods are really crutches for forming pugs, and everyone knows it is a generally crappy measure of a player. I'm in a top-20 US raiding guild in WoW, and our general feeling about gearscore is "lol gearscore".

Anyhow, that's a bit of an OT ramble, but my point, bringing this back to CO and the relevance: gear in WoW is designed as a means to help you move up to harder content. Once any mechanism is purchasable that is considered mandatory, it basically ruins the playability of the game. Now, if the idea is that the F2P Silver level is simply a means to introduce you to the controls and the graphics and get you to dip your toe in the water and convert, that's fine - if the current subscription level includes all the stuff.

If there was anything that affected game balance that was a purchase beyond gold, I certainly would unsub. Of course, I can't unsub, as I'm a lifetimer, but if I were a subscription, and you tried to add game-balance-affecting purchases not included in the subscription, I'd say you were nickel and diming me and bail immediately. Basically, all the time you put into an mmo feels a bit like an investment in a character. When you change the rules, and you suddenly have to pay more money for your character to feel "as good" as the guy next door's character, you've essentially held my previous effort hostage. I would sooner accept purchased levels, purchased xp boosts, than I would accept, say, a damage boost. A purchased level or xp just gets someone to a higher level faster; damage boosts make them a more viable character during play. Likewise, in game currency should never be sold or boosted beyond a subscriber level, since that puts subscribers at a disadvantage to someone just spending money.

(And let me add that I'm extremely price-insensitive. I dropped $9 on coffee today. I am the sort of person who wouldn't think twice about dropping $ on stuff I like in a game - e.g., I've purchased every add-on pack for CoH for 2 accounts. I just think doing it with gameplay-affecting things ruins the integrity and fun of the game.)

[Archived Post]

You would think if something like that happened, everyone would leave, but it's happened in other games and people still stay for various reason. Such as, they've invested so much time already that it would be a waste to quit now, some like to "Pay to Win," or their friends in-game, or any other number of reasons.

I've played some games that were "Pay to Win" and I did invest a good chunk of change, much more than a monthly fee would ask for, which is why I think going F2P isn't a bad idea, but it does have consequences. I hope it works here, but I first would want to know how these buffs are going to look like.

Oh, I know there's always people who'll stick around. I mean, for me - It would depend on how the continuing game played without them.

I'm not going to drop cash in a gamestore for those kinds of items on a regular basis, so the game would -have- to be playable without them to keep me around..

And I'm never gonna group with people who demand them so, that's all good too :)

[Archived Post]

Changing CO around so that you need C-Store items just to succeed would require redoing the core fundamentals of the game and would break so many things in the process that it would make the current lag mess we're going through right now feel like nothing at all.

At least give the CO developers some benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't do something that outright stupid, okay?

[Archived Post]

Changing CO around so that you need C-Store items just to succeed would require redoing the core fundamentals of the game and would break so many things in the process that it would make the current lag mess we're going through right now feel like nothing at all.

At least give the CO developers some benefit of the doubt that they wouldn't do something that outright stupid, okay?

Adding "boosts" which affect gameplay, and trying to charge subscribers for them, is stupid.

It would be like showing up for a baseball game, and the people running the league offering you a 10th player or a closer home-run fence for $50. It takes away the integrity of the game.

The only difference is that you can always go play baseball somewhere else with people who want an honest game; you can't play CO anywhere else. (But you can play another MMO.)

I wish all the success in the world to cryptic using an F2P model, but I think if they sell gameplay-affecting boosts - especially ones not just inherently included in a subscription - they will alienate a huge portion of their playerbase and generate plenty of bad word-of-mouth. But I could be wrong; I have no idea if this sort of thing goes on in other F2P games like LotRO and DDO. It's one thing to offer content for money, or convenience items (more stash/inventory/etc), or cosmetic items like costumes, or capacity (character slots, etc).

It's another (and I'd say, bad) thing to offer a gameplay upgrade (stronger weapons, better powers).

It's another level still, and suicidally bad, to offer gameplay upgrades which are not included for subscribers.

Obviously that's just my opinion. There's a fine line, perhaps, between a balanced mmo that's designed for fun, and a glorified skinner box that's designed to trick you into paying money with psychological gimmicks. The nature of mmos puts those things awfully close already, and pay-to-play gameplay boosts push you into the tawdry land of skinner box gimmicks, imo.

[Archived Post]

Bump. I see Dev posts on almost every other post except this one. Guessing we should be worried? Or are my questions and concerns not important? This could quite possibly be one of the most important topics if what you offer may reflect what other games offer as far as purchasing "boosts" or buffs for your character.

Actually, I think it has less to do with your (and your question's) relative importance and more to do with what information they can currently give us. Remember, they're going to have a closed beta. Which means they haven't set all of the answers to your questions in stone. Right now, the effects of these items and how they impact gameplay are going to be some of the most crucial questions that need answering, and they won't know how well it works in practice until they actually have people grabbing and popping them during the course of gameplay. Until they know how well it works in practice, they're not going to be able to fine-tune the cost, effectiveness, duration, or any other of the things you want answered.

So, while I expect a Dev will be by to say "we're considering the answers to these questions right now" sooner or later, you're not going to actually get answers until after at least the first few waves of closed beta. Welcome back to the world of Beta Development.

[Archived Post]

Adding "boosts" which affect gameplay, and trying to charge subscribers for them, is stupid.

It would be like showing up for a baseball game, and the people running the league offering you a 10th player or a closer home-run fence for $50. It takes away the integrity of the game.

The only difference is that you can always go play baseball somewhere else with people who want an honest game; you can't play CO anywhere else.

Baseball is a competitive sport. ChO is a noncompetitive game. The only time any question of the 'integrity of the game' would come up is in PvP, when you're in direct competition. Which is entirely fixable by simply not letting any of those things work when in PvP.

Also, you do understand that questions of the Salary Cap, of steroid use, of park setup (Green Monster, anyone?), of whether or not you're in the National League vs. the American League (designated hitter rule) and a ton of other points sort of make your comparison moot. The Yankees haven't won the large number of pennants they have because of strange Quipiloth radiation in the hot dogs, after all.

[Archived Post]

ChO is a noncompetitive game. The only time any question of the 'integrity of the game' would come up is in PvP, when you're in direct competition.

All games are designed to challenge players and reward them for success. Whether it is adjusting falling blocks in Tetris, or destroying pigs in Angry Birds. Whether you earn xp or points isn't particularly meaningful - they're all just bits in the end. There are several concerns:

(1) Level and gear are the "points" of a game like CO. Adjusting your damage and xp and then having everyone look the same after is a bit like having an online Tetris, letting someone buy a button that slows blocks down, and then putting all the high scores together in one place, as if they had played the same game.

(2) MMOs are often designed so that there is some challenge level which forces a player to learn their character to overcome challenges. If you sell them extra damage and xp, then when they team with someone after using that (and no longer having it, since it would ostensibly expire), they are now, on the average, going to be a less effective teammate than someone who learned to build a character and play without those advantages. So their purchase hurts you directly when you play cooperatively with them, because you get a less effective teammate.

There's also a question as to whether purchases affecting gameplay are taking advantage of the psychological aspects of an MMO. Everyone knows MMOs have a reward mechanism that is essentially addictive in nature. If you feel like beating enemies and earning xp and getting powers and such is a reward, then charging money to speed up that process is essentially taking advantage of that addiction mechanism.

Which leads to...

(3) Purchasable boosts create an inherent conflict of interest in game design. It encourages designers to make content very hard, so that boosts make it possible to overcome it. Obviously there's not going to be an obvious change to the game now that makes them necessary. But fast forward through adventure packs, maybe even a bump in the level cap, and think about the design goals that would accompany such a thing, knowing that players would have cash-money xp/damage boosts available. There is an inherent financial advantage for them to tune the content to be harder, so that players are encouraged to pay to alleviate some of that difficulty. This is one of those things that is very likely to not currently be on the radar of the vast majority of Cryptic employees; it will either manifest subconsciously, or will be foisted off on the design staff by upper management down the road.

There are probably other things I'm not thinking of offhand; but there's a good reason why games which offer gameplay-affecting advantages for money (versus Convenience+Cosmetics+Content) are looked upon very suspiciously.

[Archived Post]

The thing that has me and others worried is this; the item boosts? Can you please give us better details about them?

How much will they cost?
What exactly will they do?
When can they be used?
Duration?
How many uses per purchase of the item?
Can they be traded to others?
Can they be used in PvP?

We're not ready to post the whole matrix of all the items and their costs.

The game isn't being re-balanced to allow us sell boost items.

In general, we tried to choose things which we thought would make the game more fun or exciting. For example, there is a team "resurgence" available. The idea is that players could perhaps use it to overcome a particularly difficult villain, or maybe try to take them on at a higher difficulty level.


The cost varies, but is in the range of what we sell today.
Most can be used any time, though there are some that only work when out of combat.
Items usually come with multiple charges (4 and 10 are common). Some items are toggles with a lifetime instead.
The duration of the boost depends on what it does.
They can be traded with others.
They are usable in PvP and PvE at this time (tough we're open to changing that).

[Archived Post]

Some items are toggles with a lifetime instead.

Oh please please please make that the growth and shrink items!

[Archived Post]

We're not ready to post the whole matrix of all the items and their costs.

The game isn't being re-balanced to allow us sell boost items.

In general, we tried to choose things which we thought would make the game more fun or exciting. For example, there is a team "resurgence" available. The idea is that players could perhaps use it to overcome a particularly difficult villain, or maybe try to take them on at a higher difficulty level.


The cost varies, but is in the range of what we sell today.
Most can be used any time, though there are some that only work when out of combat.
Items usually come with multiple charges (4 and 10 are common). Some items are toggles with a lifetime instead.
The duration of the boost depends on what it does.
They can be traded with others.
They are usable in PvP and PvE at this time (tough we're open to changing that).

For the toggle items, is it like they are currently done (as in you buy it once and have access to it on all characters) or will it move to per character?

[Archived Post]

They are usable in PvP and PvE at this time (tough we're open to changing that).

Having them usable in PvP is an appalling concept; devices are already enough of a problem without implementing for-pay super-devices. Actually, having them usable in PvE is problematic too, but not on the same scale as the PvP problems they could cause.

[Archived Post]

Having them usable in PvP is an appalling concept; devices are already enough of a problem without implementing for-pay super-devices. Actually, having them usable in PvE is problematic too, but not on the same scale as the PvP problems they could cause.
But I would imagine that it would be quite fun to kill someone who is buffed up knowing that they will have to pay to get buffed up again.

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While I am not into PVP, even for PVE this could be a serious fun killer if it is not implemented right. Specially for endgame stuff if I feel I have to buy those buff to not feel gimped I will be really upset. As I understand CO is going for hybrid model and not full f2p so I advise going light(better none) on paid buffs. I dont mind xp boost/resource boost but nothing that change the character performance.

[Archived Post]

I wouldn't mind getting stompped because the other person used a paid for buff, because if your going that far to win, its your loss not mine ^.^

[Archived Post]

All games are designed to challenge players and reward them for success. Whether it is adjusting falling blocks in Tetris, or destroying pigs in Angry Birds. Whether you earn xp or points isn't particularly meaningful - they're all just bits in the end. There are several concerns:

(1) Level and gear are the "points" of a game like CO. Adjusting your damage and xp and then having everyone look the same after is a bit like having an online Tetris, letting someone buy a button that slows blocks down, and then putting all the high scores together in one place, as if they had played the same game.
Only if you care about high scores and "competing" with others. I stopped doing that in primary school.

Your next part. however, is very true.. and worrying. There is an inherent financial advantage for them to tune the content to be harder, so that players are encouraged to pay to alleviate some of that difficulty. This is one of those things that is very likely to not currently be on the radar of the vast majority of Cryptic employees; it will either manifest subconsciously, or will be foisted off on the design staff by upper management down the road.

There are probably other things I'm not thinking of offhand; but there's a good reason why games which offer gameplay-affecting advantages for money (versus Convenience+Cosmetics+Content) are looked upon very suspiciously.

"Naw, give him 100K more HP, players have access to 10% damage pots"

[Archived Post]

We're not ready to post the whole matrix of all the items and their costs.

The game isn't being re-balanced to allow us sell boost items.

For example, there is a team "resurgence" available. The idea is that players could perhaps use it to overcome a particularly difficult villain, or maybe try to take them on at a higher difficulty level.


The cost varies, but is in the range of what we sell today.
Most can be used any time, though there are some that only work when out of combat.
Items usually come with multiple charges (4 and 10 are common). Some items are toggles with a lifetime instead.
The duration of the boost depends on what it does.
They can be traded with others.
They are usable in PvP and PvE at this time (tough we're open to changing that).


Thank you. I understand why you can't post exact details. Just some information is what I was shooting for; and we now have some; so thank you.


A few things I see troubling here.

Obviously, them being on use in PvP, as others already have commented on. I agree with them, and I feel they should not be able to be used in PvP. That; is pay to win. I do not do Pay to Win any more. If this is the case after the beta, and once these new changes are in place in 2011, count me out.

Using these items to overcome certain villains etc etc... that's the same thing I see in raids in prior games I once played. You were not going to a raid without these said items; whether you really needed them or not, it made things easier. Honestly, even showing that you had them, didn't even guarantee you a spot in the raid. I personally never had a problem with it at the time. I always had the best gear, cash shop items, literally anything to give me an "advantage." Did I need them? No. Did I need them to do things others did? Requirement. Granted Cryptic, the ones putting these items into the shop, do not "require" us to buy and use these items, they can be so overpowered, that us, as the player base, will note them as a "requirement" to do certain things. Honestly though, I don't see anything in this game currently that really needs such items, but who knows what's to come.


I spent a lot of time and money on one of these games. I had these things called "runes," and what each one did was grant a damage bonus, or defensive bonus depending on what piece of equipment you put them on. You can have 6 total. I had 4 lvl 10 Runes, and 2 lvl 9 runes. The cost to make just 1 lvl 10 rune, is just over $500.... times that by 4. To even make one of those lvl 10 runes, you needed 2x lvl 9 runes to combine them together, along with a bunch of cash shop junk with them. You did not get your other lvl 9 rune; they both turned into 1 lvl 10 rune. Most people, at max level, had lvl 4s - 5s. That's the bear minimum for the first few raid bosses, but anything past that, you were looking at lvl 6s-7s. Now I'm unsure. They recently had a patch and max rune level is 13... I can't imagine destroying one of my $573 lvl 10 runes; to make a level 11 rune. Remember, it costs 2x lvl 10 runes; that's over 1 grand... but to be honest, you didn't see people with them... it was a rare sight.

Now, the above is not an exaggeration by any means, but I honestly do not see this game going that path. And to be quite honest, that's as bad as it can get; the above. Things are improving there, but it's still pay to win. I just hope this doesn't turn into yet another game I quickly fell in love with; to go down a horrible F2P route.



I am also not against cash shops, item shops, C-Store; whatever said game wants to call it. I like them, I'm all about the cosmetic wear, even bigger bags, more bank space, action figures, anything currently available for us to buy, I mean there's a bunch of things that can be added that do NOT give a person an edge over another; or a group/raid versus another group/raid.

In most cases, I would buy the "pay to win" items, but I can't anymore. It's not that I don't have the money, I just refuse to buy into Pay to Win methods that some companies think is a brilliant idea. I would much rather just pay my monthly fee and be like everyone else; and not worry about getting some item out of the cash shop every week to be competitive, PvP, or PvE.


You can do this right though... first step is to not allow said items to be used in PvP. That's the main place for competitive players it seems here. I personally don't PvP, but I'm also thinking about them as well in this case.

In the end, I am a little worried. I like this game for the short time I've played, and I would want nothing more to continue playing. I just liked playing a P2P game, and not those F2P games with item shops that you needed to buy stuff out of anyways to really do anything... all of those games stink anyways compared to this, and I'm not going back to the other P2P MMOs I've played; so I only want what's best for this game, the staff behind it, and us as players.

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Oh please please please make that the growth and shrink items!

Agreed. My logic on this is such:

The game's current C-Store has costume pieces which are purchased for x CPoints. These costume pieces are permanent and have no direct impact on the game as a whole aside from appearance. I don't expect pauldrons that look like a Paladin's to get me to heal better, for example.

I can understand devices like the proposed Team Resurgence or Summon to have charges/heavy cooldowns, because those can directly impact the game in both PvP and PvE (depending on design, of course).

The size changers, on the other hand, are cosmetic. They're to add a costume piece that cannot otherwise be a costume piece, if that makes any lick of sense. As such, I would expect them to be on the same level as the costume pieces that also provide appearance. I can see this being somewhat exploited in PvP, but if the size of the health bars don't change, I don't see much issues. Well, unless the guy is a super small pet user.

Regardless, I do anticipate them to be a slight more expensive than a costume pack, providing they're given to all characters on the account. Else, it'd be fair to leave it on par with costume pieces if it's a per-character basis. It's a strange perk and people have wanted it for months. The people that want it (some of which I know) will probably pay for it. What WILL deter them will be if it is limited by charge or duration. Otherwise, it's just a gimmick thing which costs far too much to last so short.

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Oh please please please make that the growth and shrink items!

I'm willing to bet real cashey-money you didn't read that correctly.