Best Crip Challenge Attach?

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Just curious, after finally getting to play for the first time last night since my wife and I had our "talk," I started thinking if maybe my CC attack really wasn't all that great.

As y'all may know I've been a strong advocate about Shuriken w/ Chained Kunai for my CC. I've liked the pull it can provide. But after last night I noticed that while the pull works great on Henchies....it's not so good on cosmics. Go Figure. Honestly, I hadn't used it as much because before my last retcon I was using Beatdown on Cosmics and it seemed to work a TON better.

So curious. Which CC powers tend to work the best on the big guys? Experience is appreciated. :p

EDIT: Oh Lord...I can't spell. Attach? Really? heh :rolleyes:

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Go for a spammable single target high damage attack, then mix in some CC on your lunge power to cycle in every 3 seconds. Damage weighs much more heavily, you'll find that the lower damage attack with CC is going to pale in comparison to having a heavy hitter + lunge taunt.

With defiance, you can keep that attack spam up so often you might not even need any kind of +threat power. I certainly don't use them, not even against Teliosaurus.

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I like experimental blaster to Teddy the cosmics. Not that that is productive at all, but it sure is fun!

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I read a while back that Two-Gun Mojo ranked up is a great CC because of the maintain. What about Hurl? It's great thematically for Rox but I never really tried it...the damage seems laking.

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To be honest, the only reason I've used CC is to take aggro back from a squishy who decided to use their CC, in which case, just about any attack is fine. Spamming heavy hitters on the boss is the way to go, not a CC attack. Sprinkle CC in every now and then when the forced taunt effect wears off. The +threat from a CC attack just doesn't outweigh the threat generated by a heavy hitter.

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Lightning Arc is also a maintain w/ Crippling Challenge, and has the added advantage of doing decent single-target damage.

People like Hurl because it also can carry a travel power remover, but that only matters in PVP.

Also keep in mind that Hurl and Lightning Arc are 100', while TGM is 50'.

The rest of the Crippling Challenge powers are either Tier 0 powers that are pretty much useless for anything else or are melee. If you are getting into melee, put Crippling Challenge on a lunge.

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If you are getting into melee, put Crippling Challenge on a lunge.

Yup, do this.

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I don't really us lunges anymore. As long as my team knows to wait on me to attack first having a ranged CC has been better for me.

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Okay, then CC is fine on any old attack, since its only useful for the forced taunt mechanic, and not its +threat.

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Playing Devil's Advocate here :D

One of the best tanks in the game i have ever seen told me that CC's on a Range closer is a bad idea :(

Just food for thought :cool:

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So what say you to ranking up CS powers instead of worrying about the CC one instead? Like if I were to use a R3 Venemous Breath or Pyre instead of just slotting it for CS without ranking (as I currently have). If I do a R1 CS power I could throw all my damage into Demolish...basically throwing down a Pyre and spamming Demolish on the big guy, CCing random problems on the side?

The other thing that always confuses me is the timer on CC. If I tab targets can I reuse the CC on the new target and taunt it as well? Or will it only taunt one thing at a time? I know I've asked this question before but it always baffles me. lol

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Playing Devil's Advocate here :D

One of the best tanks in the game i have ever seen told me that CC's on a Range closer is a bad idea :(

Just food for thought :cool:

By closer you mean last big attack that ranged or a lunge? Personally I don't like hoping all over the place.

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If your team is having trouble surviving stray aggro from one or two mobs, and you find it necessary to CC them, then yes, a lunge is a bad idea because you bring all your mobs with you to the support lines of your team. This is a playstyle choice, and it depends largely on your team's ability.

However, a CS AoE should keep aggro long enough for your team to wipe out the smaller threats (provided you continue to cause damage to as many targets as possible). CS is a supplement, not a something you should rely on (at least you can't anymore now that bugged shockwave is gone).

CC can be applied to as many targets as you want, but will have no effect (it won't even prolong the forced taunt) until it has worn off that foe.

CC ideally should be used sparingly on normal mob fights, use it on a lunge to close the gap between you and the strongest mob, then proceed to AoE like no tomorrow. CC spamming is only necessary during boss fights, and even then, you only need to reapply it once you see that icon dissapear from the list of debuffs.

Edit: A popular way of controlling fights is to open with a CS attack from the archery tree, either torrent or rain (CS continues to add threat while the power is cooling down, making essentially a fire and forget taunt), use a CC lunge on the big guy, then spam AoEs (your biggest source of threat to a group) til the entire spawn is cleared.

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By closer you mean last big attack that ranged or a lunge? Personally I don't like hoping all over the place.
Range Closer = Thunderbolt Lunge, Mighty Leap, Pounce

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Range Closer = Thunderbolt Lunge, Mighty Leap, Pounce

That's what I thought.

On a side note: WOOT! Woman's gonna be outta the house again tonight so I can test some of these later. :)

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The other thing that always confuses me is the timer on CC. If I tab targets can I reuse the CC on the new target and taunt it as well? Or will it only taunt one thing at a time? I know I've asked this question before but it always baffles me. lol

Well, the part I understand is if you use Crippling Challenge on an enemy, they are forced to attack you for 4 seconds, then they return to regular aggro mechanics. For the next 6 seconds, nobody can use CC to force that particular enemy to target them. The description doesn't say or imply in any way that you cannot use CC on multiple targets at the same time.

The part that is not clear to me is the relationship between CC and CS, since the description for CC says the enemy cannot be "taunted by any source again for 10 seconds", and the description for CS says it is a taunt. Does CS not create additional threat on that target for those 10 seconds?

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The part that is not clear to me is the relationship between CC and CS, since the description for CC says the enemy cannot be "taunted by any source again for 10 seconds", and the description for CS says it is a taunt. Does CS not create additional threat on that target for those 10 seconds?

That I can answer. CS isn't a taunt. It just adds threat. Which is why it's good to get an AoE to add as much threat as you can to surounding targets. Also, CS powers with recharge add threat while they are recharging.

In my experience the best ones are Thunderclap, Venemous Breath, and possibly Pyre.

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I think the disctinction is that Taunt = forced aggro mechanic, and everything else is just +threat. You can +threat all you want, but can only Taunt once until the cooldown is complete.

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Thought Id drop my 2 cents in. Crippling Challenge is a forced taunt for 4 seconds and + 400 threat with and after the first tick of damage. So a CC power its not really a fire-and-forget kinda thing, the more you use that power the stronger your threat will be. so each tick of damage adds +400 to whatever threat damage the power did already. CS's is 200 threat on top of each tick of normal damage threat. So Spamming your CC and CS powers will net you a very high amount of threat, no matter what power you have it on. Although a higher damage attack with CC or CS is always better than a low damage CC or CS.

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...and + 400 threat with and after the first tick of damage.

Aaaah yes, I forget that. That's why Beatdown was doing so well for me. I kept attacking. But when I switch to just Shuriken alone I was only using it to grab initial attention. I can see why a power like Lightning Arc or Two-Gun Mojo can have a huge impact on threat. +400 on a maintain would be insane.

I think I'm going to grab TGM on Rox and color it orangish and call it his "pebble blast."

*hint hint ... cryptic use this idea for the earth set when it comes out.* ;)

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Playing Devil's Advocate here :D

One of the best tanks in the game i have ever seen told me that CC's on a Range closer is a bad idea :(

Just food for thought :cool:

you should have added his reason, because from what I've seen it makes no difference whether you put CC on a lunge or something else. All CC does is add the taunt effect for 4 secs. As was said above, wailing on the boss with your high damage single target attacks in Protector should generate more overall aggro than CC but I've only tested CC on a non-lunge attack personally.

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I put CC on 100ft T0 attacks. Since CC precludes Rank 3, I don't want it on a power I intend to do actual damage with. Moreover, I prefer to have a non-tank mode so I don't want CC on any power that's integral to my rotation.

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...from what I've seen...
I passed on an opinion from someone who's tanking skill i respect.
No where did i say that "instead CC should be placed on something else".
Your opinion still doesn't invalidate my statement.

In fact all it does is reinforce it :cool:

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After having done extensive testing with a guy whose DPS was insane (he was perma-Massacre spam, never ran out of energy, i.e. never had to use his EB in Brawler) on Test I know for a fact that +400 threat is every tick of a maintain. These are all with COPD running as well as PRE super-statted.

(1) With Aspect of the Bestial, moderately high STR and Enrage, I couldn't keep the aggro off my DPSer with Massacre spam interspersed with Lunge CC

(2) Gigabolt/Shockwave/whatever you want to stick in here that has higher DPS didn't do enough. At all. I tried a variety of powers, including Lightning Arc Rank 3 instead of CC, a Dex LR build that gave lots of crits, etc.. Still not enough.

(3) Lightning Arc with CC and COPD was the only thing that could hold aggro (note that also I used gravitational polarity to boost damage when I remembered; it wasn't a constant thing though). Not only that, but I held it the whole fight; the boss never shifted target once, at least until I died (2 man team taking on the first boss in TT). That +400 threat per tick simply is that good; massacre spam was double its DPS but it couldn't hold aggro for even a couple of seconds past the Pounce mandatory taunt.

We did these tests for the better part of an hour, and I tried various builds with any power that I could even vaguely justify on Blue Moon. A maintain with CC > any damaging attack for aggro generation. Without an offensive passive and the 'right' build (i.e. Avenger or Brawler) you are simply not going to do enough damage to keep aggro off good DPSers, even those with aggro dumps. Lightning Arc Rank 2 with CC standing within COPD while PRE was superstatted was the only thing that locked down aggro against an over-1200 DPS character.

Now this is only my own experience, but I was looking specifically at the behavior of the boss in the closest thing to a controlled aggro environment I could find (nothing below super-villain could survive my DPS friend). It's not based on 'feelings' or 'I remembers' or any other kind of 'I think it should work this way', but rather on the simple metric of 'does the boss ever turn towards super-DPS dude of not' ;) The +400 threat per tick that maintains with CC add are unbeatable for locking down aggro; nothing else compared.

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Another good CC maintain to consider is devour essence. Its the perfect tanking power.

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We were having a discussion last night about whether or not Two-Gun Mojo was getting +400 a tick or not. The main problem of it all is that we have no way of tracking how much threat is on any particular mob. Really ticks me off.

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Yeah I feel your pain; my partner and I commented more than once about how difficult it was to track threat. The reason I believe it is can be condensed from my paragraphs above:

It was the only thing that could keep threat against a big DPS guy.

It certainly wasn't because of the actual damage it was doing; R2 arc does less than gigabolt spam which does a lot less than massacre spam on a single target. I tried everything under the sun to juice my attacks' DPS, including macroing Pounce into the Massacre key so that I never missed it's cooldown. The only explanation for how Lightning Arc was keeping aggro was that it must have been applying an extra 400 threat per tick of damage. There's literally no other way it could have held the aggro in the face of all the other tests.

But yes, in the absence of any Omen-like way to track threat, anything and everything is best-guesswork. But based on the strictest tests I could run I'd bet even money that maintains are adding +400 per tick; there's literally no other way for them to be holding threat over powers with twice to three times the DPS with all else being equal (i.e. both in Protector stance, both with COPD, etc.).

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Well dang, wish I would've read about your tests last night. We didn't think a maintain was really adding it every tick so I took a more thematic CC (Hurl) instead of the Pistols. Oh well I'll see how it goes. If I'm still having trouble I'll switch it again. I've got 4 more retcons so it's not really a big deal.

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I'd still suggest trying it out for yourself first on Test; by no means am I infallible, and despite my extensive testing it's still a "this is what happened" as opposed to "x=400". My suggestion is to do what we did, clear a lair to a boss, then run mutiple tests with multiple builds using a buddy with top-tier DPS to try and steal it from you. The vital components here are that (1) your DPSer is good enough (if you can hold aggro against good DPS you can hold it against cruddy, but the reverse ain't true) and (2) that you're both playing to the best of your abilities/stacks of buffs/etc. each test. If you only half-play a build and it doesn't hold as much aggro as a more familiar one that might be due more to your familiarity than facts (had to re run a few tests myself due to this to be sure).

EDIT: As a side nice thing about electricity tanking, if you take force sheathe and ionic reverb you can maintain a lightning arc on even a single target while running a toggled sparkstorm with CS. That'll glue the villain to you if anything will.

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I passed on from someone who's taking skill i respect an opinion.
No where did i say that "instead CC should be placed on something else".
Your opinion still doesn't invalidate my statement.

In fact all it does is reinforce it :cool:

Actually I was just trying to delve into why your pal would think crippling challenge on a lunge is a bad idea. I suspect it's because of the reasons Mercykiller listed above in his testing, but apparently you'd rather flame a post that was in no way confrontational than have a civil discussion. For what it's worth I edited my initial reply to you to be more accurate about my own opinions on threat generation

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After having done extensive testing with a guy whose DPS was insane (he was perma-Massacre spam, never ran out of energy, i.e. never had to use his EB in Brawler) on Test I know for a fact that +400 threat is every tick of a maintain. These are all with COPD running as well as PRE super-statted.

(1) With Aspect of the Bestial, moderately high STR and Enrage, I couldn't keep the aggro off my DPSer with Massacre spam interspersed with Lunge CC

(2) Gigabolt/Shockwave/whatever you want to stick in here that has higher DPS didn't do enough. At all. I tried a variety of powers, including Lightning Arc Rank 3 instead of CC, a Dex LR build that gave lots of crits, etc.. Still not enough.

(3) Lightning Arc with CC and COPD was the only thing that could hold aggro (note that also I used gravitational polarity to boost damage when I remembered; it wasn't a constant thing though). Not only that, but I held it the whole fight; the boss never shifted target once, at least until I died (2 man team taking on the first boss in TT). That +400 threat per tick simply is that good; massacre spam was double its DPS but it couldn't hold aggro for even a couple of seconds past the Pounce mandatory taunt.

We did these tests for the better part of an hour, and I tried various builds with any power that I could even vaguely justify on Blue Moon. A maintain with CC > any damaging attack for aggro generation. Without an offensive passive and the 'right' build (i.e. Avenger or Brawler) you are simply not going to do enough damage to keep aggro off good DPSers, even those with aggro dumps. Lightning Arc Rank 2 with CC standing within COPD while PRE was superstatted was the only thing that locked down aggro against an over-1200 DPS character.

Now this is only my own experience, but I was looking specifically at the behavior of the boss in the closest thing to a controlled aggro environment I could find (nothing below super-villain could survive my DPS friend). It's not based on 'feelings' or 'I remembers' or any other kind of 'I think it should work this way', but rather on the simple metric of 'does the boss ever turn towards super-DPS dude of not' ;) The +400 threat per tick that maintains with CC add are unbeatable for locking down aggro; nothing else compared.

I ran some similar tests to this with my PA tank. Like you I also toggled sparkstorm with CS. But similar to you I found that spamming laser sword R2 with CC was locking down aggro much more effectively than anything else. But when I attempted to contribute threat through damage with concussor + chest beam spikes I actually lost aggro. I even tested this out against a might tank and massacre spammer and was able to keep about 80% or more of the aggro from the other tank with both of us running protector. The massacre spammer was aggro'd a few times, but I suspect that was due to the 2 tanks fighting over aggro, and threat being reset because of it. I'm almost sure of that because the only time I noticed him pulling aggro was right around the few times that Dr. D switched from one tank to another.

LS isn't a maintain but as a click with a fast animation, I find it highly spammable, albeit with a heftier end cost than LA. My only regret is not getting the benefit of ionic reverb from my CC spam, but if you wouldn't mind clarifying for me, would I be getting any of that benefit on a single target with nothing for LA to arc to?

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I guess you're back, Roxstar?

CC on a lunge is okay, to an extent. Lunges are currently busted when the target is moving any faster than acrobatics rank 1. It will play the animation, but the lunge will not occur. You will be yanked backwards to your starting position and lose time.

If you really want to attract something far away with certainty, try something like hurl. You can buy crippling and rubble trouble and cause it to be an AOE centered on the target. You don't have to move, it activates fast, doesn't animate falsely like a lunge, and it attracts multiple enemies.

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I'm curious, why not just spam beatdown with CC and R2? I use laser sword as my CC carrier on my PA tank and have had no issues using a melee CC carrier. Is it because you want a ranged taunt to pull single mobs off of a team mate without moving? As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, other players are generally able enough to handle single mobs in a lair themselves so I never use a CC taunt just to pull one henchie/villain off of someone. The mjain sources of danger to team mates in a lair are the bosses, and large-ish spawns. The boss is my focus for CC, and I use AoE with CS for the multi-mob spawns

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Actually I was just trying to delve into why your pal would think crippling challenge on a lunge is a bad idea.
I suspect it's because of the reasons Mercykiller listed above in his testing,
but apparently you'd rather flame a post that was in no way confrontational than have a civil discussion.
For what it's worth I edited my initial reply to you to be more accurate about my own opinions on threat generation
Um, flame?
You challenged my opinion and i defended it.
How's that a flame?

I'm only replying now because you accused me of something i don't believe i did, not to "Flame".
And how am i not being "Civil" :confused:

/ontopic

IMO:
CC + Lunge = ok :(
CC + Maintain = Better :D

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Um, flame?
You challenged my opinion and i defended it.
How's that a flame?

I'm only replying now because you accused me of something i don't believe i did, not to "Flame".
And how am i not being "Civil" :confused:

/ontopic

IMO:
CC + Lunge = ok :(
CC + Maintain = Better :D



Um... all I did was ask you to provide his reasoning for saying CC + lunge wasn't a good idea.

It was out of curiousity to improve my own game knowledge (perhaps he had an insight I may have missed, you know?) How is that a "challenge" or an "accusation"? Geez, It wasn't even remotely worded to be confrontational. You're extremely over sensitive.

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I guess you're back, Roxstar?

Not technically, but the wifey's been out of house the past couple days and played a bit. I actually did end up taking Hurl. Don't have the AoE on it though, but it seems to be working nicely. It is a very quick attack. And has a LONG range. :)

Too bad in a couple days it'll be back to tending to the wife. Well, not bad but unfortunate for playtime. :) hehe

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My primary reasons for not wanting CC on a lunge are:

1) it surrenders tactical initiative to the foe. They are determining where you go rather than you directing their movement.

2) If my team's healer gains unwanted attention I wouldnt want to try pulling it away by moving to him, bringing everything else I might have aggroed with me. Not a big worry if the team is accustomed to working together, is observant, or has vent.

3) Potential overaggro. The second group of baddies beyond your current foe might be just close enough to chain aggro if you move too far forward. Obviously not a problem if you use a ranged attack for pulling, separate from your cc, but I like having CC on my pulling power.

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Not idea about PvE, but Crippling Challenge on a Lunge has some weaknesses in PvP:

- Lunge animations are finicky, and don't always trigger correctly.

- Lunges are often upgraded with Nailed to the Ground. Having Crippling Challenge on a separate power lets you lead off with it, but hold off on applying Nailed until you guess they're about to Teleport away. Conversely against non-teleporters it helps to remove their travel power for tactical advantage, and not cripple them until they start blocking.


The main advantage of having Crippling Challenge on your lunge is just that it saves you a power slot.

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It's starting to sound like Lightning Arc might be the a great choice for a CC power (for a tank, not talking about PvP), both as a maintain and being 100' range.

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I think it depends on both concept and what you're after; Arc is dependent on full maintains (the great aggro is at the end of the arc), but Two-Gun Mojo deals consistent damage straight through, and is more likely to go the distance in a crit build due to the passive granting energy. That said, I'm a fan of Lightning Arc, but then again I ended up getting Force Sheathe to power it as well.

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I'm still curious why you don't want to just use beatdown like you used to Rox, a level 40 might tank in defiance with just new-to-40 stats+gear and a moderate investment in STR (not SS'd), and no ranks in beatdown other than CC should be able to click-spam it for around 400 damage per click with enrage stacks. You should be able to get off about 1600 damage in the time it takes to charge up and activate a charged non-taunt higher tier attack, which is pretty respectable for a tier 0-1 type power. That should provide you plenty of threat through via the +threat bonus plus damage aggro to spam that click attack on the occasions that you find you're not maintaining enough threat maintenance with your regular higher damage attacks.
I've done something similar a while back on my PA tank with no STR using laser sword as my CC carrier and found that the damage was similar to beatdown. Any time I needed to ramp up threat by spamming my CC carrier, it worked very nicely, even when tested on lair bosses against extremely high dps team mates. I also tested this against a might tank who wasn't using a spammable attack as their CC carrier and was also able to consistently pull aggro off of them as well. I never took CoPD because I don't feel it's required. A bonus yes, but not a must have. I'd reserve that power pick for an all ranged tank personally.

Which is pretty much why I decided to run 2 tanks. I currently have a geared PA/electric tank based on pure particle damage attacks that I'll be converting to fully ranged using LA as my CC carrier, and my newly minted 40 Might tank is now going to be my pure melee tank. To be honest I find the might framework itself just naturally lends itself to easier building and gearing for tanking purposes.

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Just chipping in with my fav agro grabbing combo. Power Gauntlet with CC, Micro Munitions and Minigun (or was it Gatling, cant ever remember the name right) both with CS. And if needed Ego Sprites with CS for pbaoe agrp. But I play a wierd ranged tank so this lets me CC the boss and CS the rest without even trying from quite a distance away and even snipe pull and taunt the boss before the fight starts. Trouble is energy drain is brutal but thats where Force Sheathe comes in. The other downsides are that once I'm in melee I cant position my cone too well and I cant use any other power while attacking so if I need to slap on a heal or something I have to manually cancel my attacks or wait for them to end first but if I'm just Gauntlet spamming thats no problem.