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View Full Version : Defiance, please show up numbers


Archived Post
04-20-2010, 09:49 PM
I have tested it repeatedly and it appears that CON have very little effect on defiance. I really wish we could get a percentage on a stack of defiance so we know how much con to use.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 04:49 AM
I actually came to the board to ask if Defiance would be viable unSS'ed even if I stack it with gear and talents. I guess nobody knows due to the lack of info?

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 05:07 AM
I thought I read somewhere it's quite good with only 100 con but I can't confirm that.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 05:56 AM
I actually came to the board to ask if Defiance would be viable unSS'ed even if I stack it with gear and talents. I guess nobody knows due to the lack of info?

That depends on what you're trying to do. Having a lot of CON is a real benefit overall for most builds whether you're using Defiance or not. The extra health just never hurts. And if you're going to tank group instances then the extra health is required anyway.

If you don't care about being the main tank, and you don't care about being terribly durable from the extra health, then you don't need to SS CON. And in this case Defiance probably isnt the best choice for you anyway. Invulnerability is awesome if you SS STR and Regeneration is great if you enhance your REC. I've even found Lightning Reflexes good with lots of DEX. If you've got any of those as superstats you probably want to pick that defensive passive.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 06:49 AM
That depends on what you're trying to do. Having a lot of CON is a real benefit overall for most builds whether you're using Defiance or not. The extra health just never hurts. And if you're going to tank group instances then the extra health is required anyway.

If you don't care about being the main tank, and you don't care about being terribly durable from the extra health, then you don't need to SS CON. And in this case Defiance probably isnt the best choice for you anyway. Invulnerability is awesome if you SS STR and Regeneration is great if you enhance your REC. I've even found Lightning Reflexes good with lots of DEX. If you've got any of those as superstats you probably want to pick that defensive passive.

Dex/Ego pistol munitions build with the close range advantages. Constitution is in the middle slot so I figured it'd be easier to gear for without hampering my dex and ego itemization, thus my decision to roll with defiance. I pop enrage when I'm not being pounded and voila, extra damage. It's worked well, but I am concerned about when I get higher. I am 28 now.

Strength doesn't work (thus INV is out) as I'm only going for ~ 75 for the enrage and the melee bonus to bullet ballet coming from PTS and I don't want to cut into my dex stacking. Recovery for the same reason and that I've used regen before on this character and been less than happy with it.

That leaves LR, which I've never heard a single good thing about. Ever. I know how to push the shift key and as such I don't need LR. At least, that is how I understand it.

Offensive forms won't work as it doesn't mesh with me wanting to be in the thick of it.

I'd be thrilled to have drawn an incorrect conclusion.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 08:56 AM
LR is a whole lot more survivable than having no passive at all. If you're not using Quarry/Fair Game or the DB focus or something, you may as well use the passive defense that scales with the stat you have stacked the most. Ranked up Evasive Maneuvers gives a pretty good boost to your Dodge, and you can get Dodge + Avoidance as the main stat on your Primary Defense.

If you're thinking of using primarily Bullet Ballet + NWI, you might want to wait for the melee pass to bring Form of the Unleashed Temptest (toggle, gives energy and boost melee damage on crit), and Way of the Enlightened Warrior. The latter gives about 70+% boost to melee damage, and 30+% Dodge and Avoidance, which isn't amazing but a whole lot better defense than most offensive passives give!

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 09:19 AM
Dex/Ego pistol munitions build with the close range advantages. Constitution is in the middle slot so I figured it'd be easier to gear for without hampering my dex and ego itemization, thus my decision to roll with defiance. I pop enrage when I'm not being pounded and voila, extra damage. It's worked well, but I am concerned about when I get higher. I am 28 now.

Strength doesn't work (thus INV is out) as I'm only going for ~ 75 for the enrage and the melee bonus to bullet ballet coming from PTS and I don't want to cut into my dex stacking. Recovery for the same reason and that I've used regen before on this character and been less than happy with it.

That leaves LR, which I've never heard a single good thing about. Ever. I know how to push the shift key and as such I don't need LR. At least, that is how I understand it.

Offensive forms won't work as it doesn't mesh with me wanting to be in the thick of it.

I'd be thrilled to have drawn an incorrect conclusion.

You're DEX/EGO Munitions build? Really, your best best is using Quarry with the Fair Game adv. Here's a thread where I've answered ALOT of questions about Munitions that should help you out:

http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?t=104489

DEX/EGO with Quarry + Killer Instincts has proven to be very fun for alot of people. The heal from Fair Game is amazingly powerful when used correctly allowing you to out-damage most other builds while still being able to take a beating. But if you feel you need a bit more survivability, stacking INT and REC as your secondary stats and taking Bionic Shielding should get rid of any chances you have of dying outside of Lairs.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 10:32 AM
Dex/Ego pistol munitions build with the close range advantages. Constitution is in the middle slot so I figured it'd be easier to gear for without hampering my dex and ego itemization, thus my decision to roll with defiance. I pop enrage when I'm not being pounded and voila, extra damage. It's worked well, but I am concerned about when I get higher. I am 28 now.

I'm 36 with a very similar setup. I'd say the setup scales pretty much perfectly through all levels - I don't think you have to worry about it getting less effective with levelling up, at least in general play. High end lairs and cosmics may be something else, but that might be build specific more than a problem with Defiance, which is a pretty good choice normally in those cases.

Now Will, I know you love that Quarry build and I know you just want to open people's eyes to the possibilities.

How far have you taken that Quarry setup? How well does it solo at higher levels? How many mobs can you handle at once? Do you die taking hits from lair bosses routinely? Is there any flexibility to it?

I'm interested in that build, primarily because it probably deals more damage and takes advantage of the offensive role. But I don't know if the energy advantages are significantly better than Defiance / Killer Instinct - I realize that you're even gaining energy from non-EB attacks but aggressive energy consumption has never been a major factor for me with Munitions anyway - and I'd be surprised if you can avoid damage in all situations enough to throw away the mitigation that Defiance provides.

I guess I'd like to get a feel for what can and can't be done with it. It feels more like a play style decision more than being significantly better in terms of survivability/efficiency. Is the major benefit simply tearing through a ton of low- and mid-level enemies quickly at the cost of being squishy against bosses?

For the Defiance build though, I'd like to know whether I can drop CON as a superstat myself and switch to DEX/EGO and still be solid defensively.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 11:44 AM
Now Will, I know you love that Quarry build and I know you just want to open people's eyes to the possibilities.


It's a question that comes up often. Just like if someone wanted to know the best Passive for Fire, I'd say Fiery Form, or the best passive for a Support Character I'd say Aura of Radiant Protection. Munitions just doesn't have a passive of it's own, so the question comes up more often.


How far have you taken that Quarry setup? How well does it solo at higher levels? How many mobs can you handle at once? Do you die taking hits from lair bosses routinely? Is there any flexibility to it?

I'm interested in that build, primarily because it probably deals more damage and takes advantage of the offensive role. But I don't know if the energy advantages are significantly better than Defiance / Killer Instinct - I realize that you're even gaining energy from non-EB attacks but aggressive energy consumption has never been a major factor for me with Munitions anyway - and I'd be surprised if you can avoid damage in all situations enough to throw away the mitigation that Defiance provides.

I guess I'd like to get a feel for what can and can't be done with it. It feels more like a play style decision more than being significantly better in terms of survivability/efficiency. Is the major benefit simply tearing through a ton of low- and mid-level enemies quickly at the cost of being squishy against bosses?


To answer all your questions, unfortunately, due to my heavy workload at work, I've been getting home later and going into work earlier, so I've been slacking on leveling my Quarry/Munitions build, but as of level 26, he's only died once (twice if you count getting into Project: Stein), and his survivability seems to be getting better as I get better CON out of my Primary Def slot. Also, once I got Rank 3 Bullet Ballet, MVs are barely more than a speed bump, it will kill a same-level MV in 2 full combos. The build isn't nearly as squishy as you'd think, though since you kill things so fast and Fair Game tends to heal roughly the amount of damage you've taken at any given kill.

As far as at level 40, I have 3 members of my SG that have retconned out of Regen into Quarry at level 40, and all 4 have noticed a huge difference in gameplay. UNITY and Nemesis missions are cakewalks for them. Also, being our SG's main healer, I can tell you that I don't have to heal them often in Lairs, either. Maybe it's due to having an awesome Tank (who took ThePaladin's advice), or that they just know how to keep their aggro under control, but I actually tend to heal them less often than regen or LR users that run in Protector Role, but aren't tanks. It seems that Running in Protector when you aren't the tank is actually more detrimental to you than being in Avenger with an Offensive Passive.

The only place that all three of them have had trouble soloing was the final Nemesis Mission where you have to fight 3 of your Nemesis. All three had trouble here, but after we talked and they took Bionic Shielding over Resurgence, the fight turned out much differently.

Lastly, one of them, who uses SD, TN nanobot Swarm and Orbital Cannon can solo a 5-man Hard Spawn at level 40. It's impressive, but all that shows is that you can deal with severely over-pulling.

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 11:57 AM
I admire your enthusiasm for Munitions Will, but with the coming changes on PTS I think Quarry as a Munitions will be less appealing since you can get even more energy return from crits by running the Form of the Unleashed Tempest. Combined with Killer Instinct, energy concerns seem to be marginal, and the passive slot seems better suited to a defense passive or damage enhancing offensive. (Muni lacks a true offensive passive, but targeting computer is debuff and energy for all, pestilence healing debuff and dmg , or energy forms while using a PR to change dmg types).

Archived Post
04-21-2010, 12:10 PM
I admire your enthusiasm for Munitions Will, but with the coming changes on PTS I think Quarry as a Munitions will be less appealing since you can get even more energy return from crits by running the Form of the Unleashed Tempest. Combined with Killer Instinct, energy concerns seem to be marginal, and the passive slot seems better suited to a defense passive or damage enhancing offensive. (Muni lacks a true offensive passive, but targeting computer is debuff and energy for all, pestilence healing debuff and dmg , or energy forms while using a PR to change dmg types).

Actually, you have a very good point about FotUT, especially when paired with KI, it's amazing for energy generation. I've used Quarry on the PTS, and it's still very good there, not any less effective, just seems that there are more options available now. I would actually really like to see an Offensive Passive for munitions, though. It and Telepathy are the only Passive-less Framework in the game, an both should get something. However, I don't foresee anything that will buff Physical Ranged damage coming anytime soon without a nerf to Force Cascade to compensate.

Targeting Computer, BTW IS AWESOME. Just not as easy to use as Quarry + Fair Game, but it is still extremely good for Lairs.