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View Full Version : Anyone know exactly how knockback protection works?


Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:16 AM
I ask this because my understanding is that STR doesnt do anything to protect you from knockback today. If it works properly Id like to know what the mechanic is. How much KB protection do you get for every point of STR, or whatever the formula is.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:24 AM
I ask this because my understanding is that STR doesnt do anything to protect you from knockback today. If it works properly Id like to know what the mechanic is. How much KB protection do you get for every point of STR, or whatever the formula is.

I do not think you get total protection. I believe it is more like resistance.

The higher the STR, the less distance you get knocked back.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:34 AM
I do not think you get total protection. I believe it is more like resistance.

The higher the STR, the less distance you get knocked back.

Does it work on Live? I've read that it doesnt work. And anyone know how much resistance you get for your STR?

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:39 AM
I honestly think KB protection is a player still gets KB, but just slides on the ground instead of getting flung through the air. Last I read it was 1 STR equals 1% KB resistance...

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:43 AM
I'm pretty sure this is how it's designed.

(These numbers are completely random)

Player 1 has 30 STR.
Player 2 has 130 STR.

Player 3 hits Player 1 & 2 with the same knockback power.

Player 1 gets knocked back 30 ft.
Player 2 gets knocked back 3 ft.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:47 AM
Okay, there was a partial dev explanation posted a bit ago (can't find it at the moment), though it didn't explain how the knockback bonus from Str works so it's incomplete, but from that description, the way knockback resistance works is that you have a chance of resisting knockback equal to (1 - 1 / (1 + 0.01 * resistance)), and if you successfully resist, knockback become a repel and distance is multiplied by 1 / (1 + 0.01 * resistance).

It's not clear from that description what strength does to increase knockback, but my suspicion is that it increases the numerator (above), so it's really chance = 1 - (1 + 0.01*bonus) / (1 + 0.01*resistance). That basically translates as zero chance for someone with strength equal to yours.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 09:53 AM
Balseraph post on it (http://forums.champions-online.com/showthread.php?p=1526014#post1526014). Saved the info cause I figured it'd be handy.
1) No amount of knock resistance will ever grant knock immunity; instead, it grants a % chance to reduce the magnitude of how much you've been knocked, and changes it from a "rag dolling, flopping helplessly through the air" to "sliding backwards, but still under control and able to do things."

The percent you see is, in actuality, what some refer to as "Cryptic Math", and represents the degree by which the knock will be reduced, if at all.

Basically, the chance of you being knocked is actually 1 / ( 1 + <your resist / 100> ), and the magnitude of resistance is 1 - ( 1 / ( 1 + <your resist / 100> ) ) In other words, 100% resistance means

1 - ( 1 / ( 1 + 100/100) ) => 1 - ( 1 / ( 1 + 1 ) ) => 1 - ( 1 / 2 ) => .5 or 50%

While this may be confusing in some cases, it's useful in others, as it allows "apples to apples" comparisons with modifiers that make an attack do more. in "cryptic math", 100% bonus strength (which yields double effect) is exactly countered by 100% resistance (which halves the effect). Simliarly, 972.64% bonus strength is exactly countered by 972.64% bonus resistance.

In "real" math, 100% bonus strength is countered by 50% resistance, and 972.64% bonus strength is countered by 89.7187% resistance, which is harder for most people to calculate or compare at a glance.

Being knocked several times in rapid succession WILL grant perfect immunity to knock... for a brief period.

2) What needs to be remembered is that strength provides both knock resistance and bonus knock. In other words, if you're facing an enemy that is stronger than you in PvP, then (gear aside) they'll have more knock strength than you have resistance.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 10:11 AM
Okay, there was a partial dev explanation posted a bit ago (can't find it at the moment), though it didn't explain how the knockback bonus from Str works so it's incomplete, but from that description, the way knockback resistance works is that you have a chance of resisting knockback equal to (1 - 1 / (1 + 0.01 * resistance)), and if you successfully resist, knockback become a repel and distance is multiplied by 1 / (1 + 0.01 * resistance).

It's not clear from that description what strength does to increase knockback, but my suspicion is that it increases the numerator (above), so it's really chance = 1 - (1 + 0.01*bonus) / (1 + 0.01*resistance). That basically translates as zero chance for someone with strength equal to yours.

Thanks Pantagruel. So it sounds like STR does in fact actually work on Live to resist knockback.

I'm thinking of this specifically because of the melee review on Test Server. What if every melee attack in the Might framework had an inherent passive bonus that helps you resist knockback? This would help fix several problems.

1) Builds using several Might attacks would be less susceptable to knockback, therefore more effectively staying in melee range and dealing damage.
2) Builds using several Might attacks would be more thematically appropriate as the most stable and KB resistant builds possible in the game.
3) There would be a more significant benefit to taking multiple Might attacks.

I would recommend that the passive KB resist bonus be provisioned according to the attack's rank. There are 12 attacks in Might. Every base attack has an inherent passive bonus to KB resistance that's the equivalent of 10 STR points at R1. You get an extra KB resist that's equal to 5 points of STR for every rank you add to each attack.

This seems like it woud go a long way to making melee heros more playable in both PvE and PvP. I'm specifically saying this is for Might attacks because I think Martial Arts should get a similar passive bonus to movement speed.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 10:30 AM
What would help is if there were any clearly defined and reasonable scenario where you could totally resist Force Eruption and Sparkstorm. With Teleport, most people know the formula - about 150 INT + 2 perception items, or 3 perception items. That's attainable in T3.

And why does STR buff ranged KB? How does it manage to buff ranged KB but not ranged damage? Especially for Force, which is END/EGO.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 10:41 AM
What would help is if there were any clearly defined and reasonable scenario where you could totally resist Force Eruption and Sparkstorm. With Teleport, most people know the formula - about 150 INT + 2 perception items, or 3 perception items. That's attainable in T3.

And why does STR buff ranged KB? How does it manage to buff ranged KB but not ranged damage? Especially for Force, which is END/EGO.

That's a good point. The PvP complaints on Force Eruption is what got me thinking of the passive bonus to Might attacks. In my recommendation you could pretty easily get the equivalent of another 100 points of STR for knockback resistance. I don't know if that makes a difference though. If that's not effective, maybe it needs a new mechanic. The important thing is to note whether this is on the right track or not. Does it make sense to add a passive mechanic to Might attacks to help prevent getting knocked back? Then we just need to figure out the mechanic.

Theoretically this could be a nice bonus for Might builds that doesnt penalize other builds whatsoever, and helps close the PvP gap.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 10:43 AM
What would help is if there were any clearly defined and reasonable scenario where you could totally resist Force Eruption and Sparkstorm.
I'm not convinced that sparkstorm either checks or applies knockback resistance. In any case, the designers don't want immunity to control effects as an available ability. I also suspect they never expected people to be stacking +perception items so they can shoot teleporters.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 12:59 PM
Also, try with gear then with str around 300 %. The gear works better on live than str. I think there is a bug there.

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 01:09 PM
Also, try with gear then with str around 300 %. The gear works better on live than str. I think there is a bug there.
I suspect that they're at different 'layers', and only the strength layer is opposed by the enemy's strength (and therefore useless in most content).

Archived Post
04-12-2010, 01:32 PM
It does feel a lot like gambling when some one is charging a KB and you are melee. The most reliable method seems to be blocking - which doesn't help melee charge attacks - and blocking seems reasonably effective even if you have no STR or Res items.

If you are playing a melee build I don't know if I can recommend KB resistance gear as you will need hold/root resistance, and preferably some perception items. At which point getting STR, + other stats, to a reasonable level is very difficult.

You also need to take into account that there are powers/advantages that have 100% knockback[down or what ever], and even if you successfully resist these they still achieve their goal - getting you out of combat range.

KB also seems to be buggy. I'm unsure where it has been reliably confirmed but there is some supposition that while off your feet your effective KB resistance is set to zero.

So, in summary - its always going to be a lottery whether or not you resist a KB, even resisting a KB can still put you out of melee range, and the most effective way of preventing KB would be almost as effective as if you never stated STR or used any KB resistance items. It should be noted that this method also prevents you being able to attack during the 2 second window that you are actually near your target.

Fake edit - It's why in other posts melee players comment about hunting out those players that are not using KB's. It's hard enough to kill with melee when things are going smoothly so one failed KB resist, or a repel that sends you miles away, and you are back to square one [probably having burn a selection of cooldowns].