Hope...

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I so very much want to play CO, but can't bring myself to these days. There have been only a few gripes I have ever had about this game, as many have, since Alpha Testing. One of which I have yet to see a Dev post on, the other seems to have been 'smoke and mirrored' by a community rep.

Teaming Needs Love - Leveling in this game is tough and doing missions is the key, or so say the devs. the only way to keep with the content is to ensure you do not miss a single mission line (and you have to know where they are as the links from one line to the next are not fantastic). The bigges issue here is:

Mission XP is not shared across a team!!! All this does is discourage teaming.

The only teaming you see is for 5-man dungeons. Is this the intent, Devs? Are we only supposed to team when someone needs help with 5-man content? Solo MMOing is pointless, IMO. What is the Game stance on sharing mission XP? This has been asked for since ALPHA!

Powerbar Lock - Also since Alpha, players have wanted a way to lock powers in their trays (like every MMO I have ever played). Such a simple thing and was a part of CoX for as long as I can remember. Considering you designed that game... you'd think....

Content before shine - Players are coming from a content rich plethera of games (CoX, WoW, EQ, Etc.). CO has content Gaps. And, repeating the exact same content, over and over again (because there is no end-game) makes my want to QQ a little. Content needs to be inserted throughout the levels. On a side note, sharing mission xp across a team would help this!

I love this game... but just can't find the motivation and can't find any glimmer of hope that these things will be fixed. Of the many forum posts on these subjects I have seen, I have only found one Community Rep post about the UI, passing the buck and placating the issue. This is a revolutionary MMO (classless/archtypeless), but does not feel like a MMO as teaming is the exception... Solo play is not MMO. CoX is rapidly improving, DCUO is still in the works. Populations are down in CO.

What is the long-term path for CO?

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Yeah, this game is better than the other games in so many ways except the one way that puts MMOs above other games, in my opinion.

...but I do believe that this game will grow for the better...thats why I'm still here playing and suggesting things.

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I so very much want to play CO, but can't bring myself to these days. There have been only a few gripes I have ever had about this game, as many have, since Alpha Testing. One of which I have yet to see a Dev post on, the other seems to have been 'smoke and mirrored' by a community rep.

Teaming Needs Love - Leveling in this game is tough and doing missions is the key, or so say the devs. the only way to keep with the content is to ensure you do not miss a single mission line (and you have to know where they are as the links from one line to the next are not fantastic). The bigges issue here is:

Mission XP is not shared across a team!!! All this does is discourage teaming.

The only teaming you see is for 5-man dungeons. Is this the intent, Devs? Are we only supposed to team when someone needs help with 5-man content? Solo MMOing is pointless, IMO. What is the Game stance on sharing mission XP? This has been asked for since ALPHA!

Powerbar Lock - Also since Alpha, players have wanted a way to lock powers in their trays (like every MMO I have ever played). Such a simple thing and was a part of CoX for as long as I can remember. Considering you designed that game... you'd think....

Content before shine - Players are coming from a content rich plethera of games (CoX, WoW, EQ, Etc.). CO has content Gaps. And, repeating the exact same content, over and over again (because there is no end-game) makes my want to QQ a little. Content needs to be inserted throughout the levels. On a side note, sharing mission xp across a team would help this!

I love this game... but just can't find the motivation and can't find any glimmer of hope that these things will be fixed. Of the many forum posts on these subjects I have seen, I have only found one Community Rep post about the UI, passing the buck and placating the issue. This is a revolutionary MMO (classless/archtypeless), but does not feel like a MMO as teaming is the exception... Solo play is not MMO. CoX is rapidly improving, DCUO is still in the works. Populations are down in CO.

What is the long-term path for CO?


b-but.... I like my games to be shiny.

Granted, when it was first announced, I was hoping it would play sort of like Marvel Ultimate Alliance if you only controlled one character, but what it is isn't bad.

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I like 99% agree!

But cant we lock powers into the trays? I thought we could, but Im too disinterested in the game to bother loading it up to test this.

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I only have two things to say:

1. There isn't a content gap, closing further very soon.

2. There is end game content, growing larger even sooner.

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I think the lack of teaming and the lack of challenge in PvE (due to being able to waltz through the game with unbalanced powers) are the things that drove away most players.

If every character struggled as much as, say, my pure ice character in avenger role, than there would be a reason to team even for minor missions, and people would feel more accomplished when they progressed through the game.

The biggest offender is the block/regen mechanic. This trivialize all the content except for the Legendaries and Cosmics that do enough damage that they can defeat us through our shields.

For someone like me who just enjoys making characters and running around in easy mode, CO is great, but most people want more challenge, to make them feel accomplished, and to give them a reason to team. Last night there was a conversation in the Canada Zone that illustrates the problem:

Player1: does anyone need somethings fishy?

Player1: can somebody help me with somethings fishy?

Player2: just solo it

If Player1 has a weak build, then they can't solo the mission, but if they ask for help all they will get is:

(1) A player like me on their twentieth alt who doesn't care about me not getting rewards and who will team with player1 just for fun.

(2) Someone will explain to them how to take regen and some OP attacks to solo through the game.

Option (1) is seen as charity, and no one wants to feel like a charity case just for playing their MMO, so most people will copy the plan in (2) to become a cookie-cutter easy mode character that they either (A) lose interest in before getting to 40 or (B) enjoy the easy mode enough to get to 40 and do a few nemcons.

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Mission XP is not shared across a team!!! All this does is discourage teaming.

The Crossover mission system addresses this so you can get some mission xp even if you are not eligible for a mission. Combined with sidekicking it works very well. I'm constantly teaming up with players of much higer or lower levels to complete missions together.

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I must say, before, say, a month ago, I would have had something appropriately gloomy to say.

Now, I say stick around. I have a feeling this game is going to get a lot more awesome this coming year. I don't know if everything you want to be addressed will be, but still... things are looking up.

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The Crossover mission system addresses this so you can get some mission xp even if you are not eligible for a mission. Combined with sidekicking it works very well. I'm constantly teaming up with players of much higer or lower levels to complete missions together.

The problem is that you earn less XP per minute in a crossover mission than in a "real" mission of your own. Why should I team for an hour when I get a fraction of the XP I would get if I had soloed for an hour - especially if I can waltz through the content on my own anyway? Then teaming is a hazzle that mostly occurs when you a) face a lair which you can't solo, or b) you've hit a content gap and have no other choice than grind or crossover.

The other problem is that there are still missions that can't be crossovered.

So yes, it addresses the problem, but it does it in a way that doesn't reach all the way. A fraction of the XP is still better than no XP, but it still discourages teaming as a fraction is still a fraction of the full XP you would get from soloing.

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I think there's plenty of hope for these issues. These are some of the most talked-about issues on the fora. Additional content and experience for teams seem to be in the planning stages for the devs.

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Just to ask guys in reference to the xp gain in teaming that you may be proposing. If i, say, am a low level hero and team up with a high level hero. Could I then level up quickly if I get the full xp - speed level?

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In most games, you gain experience equivalent to your level, so a level 5 would not get the same numeric value of xp from a mission that a level 15 would, maybe equivalent by percentage of overall experience needed to the next level adjusted by the relative difficulty of the mission to the "Sidekicked Level" of the team.

Since this game has to option to not be sidekicked, I would think there would be a cap on xp per defeat and mission success reward. PL'ing is a whole different issue and do not really want to get into that here.

The concern is, Gray_Scale, that yes they are the most talked about, but the least responded to and have been talked about since Alpha testing. The perception to this can easily be that 1) they have no plan of changing this aspect of the game, 2) they do not know how, or 3) the basic mechanics of the game do not allow this to be changed - ie. you get mission reward individually when you hand in your completed mission.

I would just like a response from the development team. I can't find one on the forums and have spent considerable time looking.

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Why should I team for an hour when I get a fraction of the XP I would get if I had soloed for an hour - especially if I can waltz through the content on my own anyway?

To play with a friend.
friends>xp

p.s. There are no content gaps.

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The concern is, Gray_Scale, that yes they are the most talked about, but the least responded to and have been talked about since Alpha testing. The perception to this can easily be that 1) they have no plan of changing this aspect of the game, 2) they do not know how, or 3) the basic mechanics of the game do not allow this to be changed - ie. you get mission reward individually when you hand in your completed mission.

The issue has been fixed with sidekicking+crossover xp. Have you tried this system yet? I use it every day when playing with friends. The xp is not the same as doing regular missions, but now there is incentive to team knowing that I'm still progressing my character while helping a friend with their missions, or if they are helping me I know I'm not holding them back because they're still getting xp.

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To play with a friend.
friends>xp

The friends left when they found out that the teaming was bad, or a bit later when they found out that there was exactly one (1) path to 40 and hence there was no point in alting.

They are in the other superhero MMO right now.

p.s. There are no content gaps.

There are. Well, in a sense you are correct: there is enough content to go to lvl 40, barely.

And in that "barely" lies the problem. Since you have to to almost all content to go to 40, you can easily find yourself unable to go on leveling if you miss a few missions that you can't get later because you outleveled them. So while in theory there are no content gaps, you find yourself stumbling on them unless you sweep over every square inch of every map sucking up missions like a hoover.

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Agreed, but not the point. Teaming rarely happens in CO, hands down. Especially for a casual player not in a SG or with a cadre of online acquaintances. People do not team beacuse there is not benefit in redoing the mission they might have just done becuase they get no reward to the mission xp (which the devs have said is how they want to see people leveling, not by street sweeping).

and...


Agreed. My original point was finding the content (missions specifically) is not automatic. Many many CO players find that suddenly all the missions they have are +2 or more to their level. If that is not a content gap, what is it - designed challenge? I know where all (or most of) the content is, but still find this situation happen. Then you see chat in zone about it and people say "go to so and so" or maybe if you're lucky a citizen will run up and give you a mission. The gaps are barely filled by Luck! The mission xp or availability should be such that players do not have to hunt for it or street sweep to be able to complete their next set of content (which includes those repeatables).

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I bought this game so that I could play it while I wait for CoX Going Rogue to come out.

Before I even hit level 20 on my first character, I realized how much potential this game has.

It truly has the potential to be tops in this genre...but they have to get the teaming system down.

As of right now...as soon as Going Rogue comes out, I will be gone.

Again, this game has the potential to be something amazing...until they start making the changes that are needed/wanted, it will always play second fiddle...in my opinion.

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There are. Well, in a sense you are correct: there is enough content to go to lvl 40, barely.

So getting to 40 and still having more than 1/2 of Lemuria left was in my imagination? This was with doing only 10 PvP rounds for the mission credit and 2 or 3 open missions. Once I hit 40 I check crime computer 2.0 and it showed 114 unfinished missions for me. A lot of these were special event and crafting mission, but needless to say, there was still plenty to do.

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People do not team beacuse there is not benefit in redoing the mission they might have just done becuase they get no reward to the mission xp

But they do, they can redo the mission as a crossover and get some xp for it.

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Content "gap" and "one path" leveling are two different things...

On launch there were some content "gaps" where you had to grind, and even then as long as you grinded here and there as you leveled you would have had plenty of missions left over when you hit 40.

There is however the issue of "one path" leveling and that hasn't been addressed yet mainly because (imo) it has less to do with being able to do different missions to level to 40 (which is already possible), but because there's literally only MC, Canada, Desert, MI and Lemuria (and for a good portion of time Lemuria was an awful place for many people) to go to. Things get old quick.

Also the op's points mirror what's been talked, written, discussed, chronicled, chanted, sung, hummed, cried, etc, etc over and over ad nauseum on the forums but it's always nice to see them repeated again. One things will get better... one day...

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So getting to 40 and still having more than 1/2 of Lemuria left was in my imagination?

And my grinding at 18-20 and 28-40 was just in my imagination?

I didn't say that it was impossible to get to 40 without stumbling on content gaps. I said that it was all to easy to stumble on content gaps. I did, twice, with my first hero. And that's a problem you get for there being one (1) path to 40, with barely enough content for the journey.

Right now, after Crisis, you may chose to skip back and forth between Canada and Desert until done, then between Canada and Desert and Millennium City until done, then Canada and Millennium City until done, then Monster Island and Canada until done, then Monster Island and Lemuria until done.

Note the lack of the word "or". There's no alternative path.

And that's the problem, and it will remain a problem until every "and" in the leveling path outlined above is replaced with an "or".

Once I hit 40 I check crime computer 2.0 and it showed 114 unfinished missions for me.

203 here (of which 33 are UNITY missions that don't give XP at all since they're eligible at 40). So the difference between half a zone unfinished content and two content gaps seems to be 89 missions. That's a pretty low margin, in my not particularly humble opinion.

And really, there shouldn't be 114 unfinished quests for you to do. There should be more like ten or twenty times that many, so that there are at least two or three paths to 40. With the single path there is today, the game is pretty much done when you get to 40, because the next alt you do will follow the same path to 40, with just a few variations.

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But they do, they can redo the mission as a crossover and get some xp for it.

But they get more XP for not teaming and solo the next instead.

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So getting to 40 and still having more than 1/2 of Lemuria left was in my imagination? This was with doing only 10 PvP rounds for the mission credit and 2 or 3 open missions. Once I hit 40 I check crime computer 2.0 and it showed 114 unfinished missions for me. A lot of these were special event and crafting mission, but needless to say, there was still plenty to do.
I honestly don't know how you did that. My highest is at 39.8 and I have no missions, other than repeatables and perhaps a 5-man or two..

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And my grinding at 18-20 and 28-40 was just in my imagination?

Just because you didn't do the missions doesn't mean they are not there. As Exand stated "Content 'gap' and 'one path' leveling are two different things".

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Just because you didn't do the missions doesn't mean they are not there. As Exand stated "Content 'gap' and 'one path' leveling are two different things".

To mean the one path is WORSE as it kills any incentive to have alts.

Which is the life blood of a game such as this.

Having different powers and insane customization is POINTLESS if I'm doing the EXACT SAME missions for the SECOND alt I make. Why bother with a 2nd, 3rd, 4th alt if you are just doing the same missions over and over again. And with the ability to retcon in this game if you want to see different powers on your lvl 40, you can.

Thankfully it seems the devs will be addressing this.

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Just because you didn't do the missions doesn't mean they are not there. As Exand stated "Content 'gap' and 'one path' leveling are two different things".

My point is that "one path" all to easily creates content gaps unless you hoover the zones.

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I think the lack of teaming and the lack of challenge in PvE (due to being able to waltz through the game with unbalanced powers) are the things that drove away most players.

There were a lot of issues driving people away not too long ago. Also, while people want a challenge, they won't make a toon that IS a challenge. Its a Challenge to Laziness Ratio...

For someone like me who just enjoys making characters and running around in easy mode, CO is great, but most people want more challenge, to make them feel accomplished, and to give them a reason to team.

I think this game kind of is a double edged sword. Because you have the freedom to create a FotM toon, an Uber Superman kind of toon or an underpowerd street level toon it can create more problems then your standard MMO Cookie Cutter Classes.

As players we want the freedom, but as gamers we want the challenge. I think most people (and this is mere speculation) generally play concept toons. When I go into an instance its not always easy and its not always hard...it depends on a lot of factors. What kind of builds, powers, and the skill level of the players are the main ones though.

I don't think the difficulty (or lack of) is *the* big problem for teaming (a slider is being implimented)...its all the other things like lack of experience gained, lack of user friendly teambased criteria, and all those issues that make teaming difficult and undesirable.

The fact that mob exp is so low and end of mish exp is the driving force to leveling doesn't help. Theres an odd blend in teaming where you want to have fun with other people, but at the same time you don't want to feel "Short Changed" on the deal either.

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I so very much want to play CO, but can't bring myself to these days. There have been only a few gripes I have ever had about this game, as many have, since Alpha Testing. One of which I have yet to see a Dev post on, the other seems to have been 'smoke and mirrored' by a community rep.

Teaming Needs Love - Leveling in this game is tough and doing missions is the key, or so say the devs. the only way to keep with the content is to ensure you do not miss a single mission line (and you have to know where they are as the links from one line to the next are not fantastic). The bigges issue here is:

Mission XP is not shared across a team!!! All this does is discourage teaming.

The only teaming you see is for 5-man dungeons. Is this the intent, Devs? Are we only supposed to team when someone needs help with 5-man content? Solo MMOing is pointless, IMO. What is the Game stance on sharing mission XP? This has been asked for since ALPHA!

As stated above, xp is shared, but at a lower amount. I don't see how that's any different than, say, CoX. You get less xp when you team, but because you can complete missions faster, you end up getting more xp within the time alloted. So, as far as xp being a problem with teaming, I don't think that's an issue. The issue I do see with teaming is, with the lack of content, you will just end up doing the same missions over and over. At least in CoX, everyone on the team would likely have different missions, and since there were multiple leveling paths, your current toon might not see those missions on it's own. So yes, teaming needs love, but the adjustment needs to be more content and more than one (perferably 5+) leveling paths.

Powerbar Lock - Also since Alpha, players have wanted a way to lock powers in their trays (like every MMO I have ever played). Such a simple thing and was a part of CoX for as long as I can remember. Considering you designed that game... you'd think....

Yes, this would be a nice feature. I think I've accidentally moved/dropped a few of my powers on more than one occasion. I chalk it up to a quality of life issue.

Content before shine - Players are coming from a content rich plethera of games (CoX, WoW, EQ, Etc.). CO has content Gaps. And, repeating the exact same content, over and over again (because there is no end-game) makes my want to QQ a little. Content needs to be inserted throughout the levels. On a side note, sharing mission xp across a team would help this!

Can't agree more with you here. I'm an altaholic and every time I get another idea for a hero, I get halfway through the creator, start thinking about Desert or Cananda (again) and stop right there. I'm glad they are adding new higher level content. Since I just hit 30 on my highest toon I should be busy with that and the old stuff (which is still new to me). I'm also glad they intend to start kicking out Adventure packs and other missions at various levels. I know it's a new game and it's going to take a long time to get anywhere near the content CoX has. I just have to try and remain patient until then.

I love this game... but just can't find the motivation and can't find any glimmer of hope that these things will be fixed. Of the many forum posts on these subjects I have seen, I have only found one Community Rep post about the UI, passing the buck and placating the issue. This is a revolutionary MMO (classless/archtypeless), but does not feel like a MMO as teaming is the exception... Solo play is not MMO. CoX is rapidly improving, DCUO is still in the works. Populations are down in CO.

What is the long-term path for CO?

I love this game too. I think they would have served the community better if they had kept it in Beta 6 more months and rolled it out with less bugs and more content, to include VB. I'm hoping the long-term path is a steady stream to added content, new zones, new powers, costume pieces, etc. It just takes time. Unfortunately, when you love a game as much as you or me, that time seems like it's forever...

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Actually, before Cryptic ( I think, may have been new developers) left City, they implemented increased xp for large teams (6+) to add benefit to teaming. They worked to make teaming MORE desireable realizing that this is what people want to do. Soloers will solo, no matter what. But many many MMOers want to team and want the same benefits as if they were soloing (getting credit for missions, getting the same kill xp, getting progression, etc.)

I agree with you. I want to see this game excel, it can, but not with how teaming is now.

The biggest bite on my tuckus is the complete ignoring of this topic by the developers. I know sooo many people, Alpha, Beta, and Releasers that have left simply becuase there has been such difficulty in finding a team. Teaming and 1-path leveling is why I don't play (and it is frustrating when my powers keep disappearing from my tool bar...).

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As stated above, xp is shared, but at a lower amount.

Actually, XP is not shared. If you have the mission, you get XP. If you have the mission as a crossover mission, you get less XP. If you don't have the mission, you get zilch.

The mission can be shared, yes; the mission XP does not. You only get mission XP if you have the mission in one form or the other. It's your XP only, tied to your mission only, and it's not shared.

I don't see how that's any different than, say, CoX. You get less xp when you team, but because you can complete missions faster, you end up getting more xp within the time alloted.

In CoX, all missions scale, so you get more mob XP. That also means that you don't complete the missions faster. In many cases (Positron TF), small teams are actually faster.

Mob XP in CoX is not divided per DPS; instead, if a Freak is defeated by anyone in the team, scaled to your relative level, you get XP, regardless of you landing a hit on him or not. It can be abused, but it also means that other toons than DPS toons are meaningful. That adds to diversity, which not only makes alting attractive but prolong the individual life cycle of the player. In CO, rewards are Damage based, which means that ranged DPS toons are rewarded, melee DPS toons are discouraged, and support toons are punished.

Also, it doesn't matter whether it is your mission or someone else's; it doesn't matter if it is in your arc or not; it doesn't even matter if you have the mission at all. You get as much XP as anyone else would, scaled to your relative level, as long as you were in the mission long enough. This should be compared to CO: if it is your next mission in the arc, you get full XP; if not and it is shared, you get a fraction of that XP; if you missed the share, you get zilch.

So there's a world of difference.

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Teaming and 1-path leveling is why I don't play

Amen, human.

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Mob XP in CoX is not divided per DPS; instead, if a Freak is defeated by anyone in the team, scaled to your relative level, you get XP, regardless of you landing a hit on him or not. It can be abused, but it also means that other toons than DPS toons are meaningful. That adds to diversity, which not only makes alting attractive but prolong the individual life cycle of the player. In CO, rewards are Damage based, which means that ranged DPS toons are rewarded, melee DPS toons are discouraged, and support toons are punished.

Also, it doesn't matter whether it is your mission or someone else's; it doesn't matter if it is in your arc or not; it doesn't even matter if you have the mission at all. You get as much XP as anyone else would, scaled to your relative level, as long as you were in the mission long enough. This should be compared to CO: if it is your next mission in the arc, you get full XP; if not and it is shared, you get a fraction of that XP; if you missed the share, you get zilch.

So there's a world of difference.

Jeez, the way you put it here makes me realise what a piece of genius that system was in CoX. Why, oh why, did they take two steps back with CO? I really can't get my head round it, and I wish devs would explain the rationale for ditching such a great system.

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Jeez, the way you put it here makes me realise what a piece of genius that system was in CoX.

And I didn't even mention the UI.