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Archived Post
03-07-2010, 11:26 AM
So as many people know the advantage WTK will be fixed with the Vibora release and this means changes to my build (I'm sorta ashamed to say I did exploit this power). So with this in mind I've started this thread to put my ideas down in writing on where I'd like to go after this and be able to discuss them with others to make a cool new build thats still archery at its core.

I thought I'd better start with how my build looks currently, I'm not gonna post it in full as I plan to change it but plan to quickly give the flavour of it. My character is currently superstatted Dex/Int with rec and ego to back it up (and some con for health). Main powers used are:

Strafe w/ Aversion
Torrent of Arrows w/ knockback, rank 2
Explosive Arrow w/ WTK, rank 2
On next Hit powers
LR rank 3
Couple of Active Defences
Bionic Shielding for Healing

Currently this build works well in pve and isn't too bad in pvp. I think LR is probably unecessary due to aversion and i could benefit from a different passive choice and I was thinking of possibly messing with my superstats.

So next is my ideas and the bit I really wish to discuss and get ideas on.

So I'll start of with the power in the title WTK. I was thinking there was two ways I could go with this. The first is to scrap it and try using explosive arrow on its own, maybe at rank 3. The other option is to keep it and find another power to spam in between, I was thinking snap shot may actually have a use here or even using Taser Arrow w/ Aftershock advantage (I have no idea if this would be useful but seems worth testing and i figured it could be funny in pvp if nothing else).

The second major area I was thinking about was my passive. With aversion in use LR is pretty much defunct and so I though I'd get much more use from another passive. The two way I thought of going were to use quarry on the offence side or get a different defense in the form of defiance or invulnerability I was thinking defiance would be quite interesting if I changed my superstats to Con/Int it would be quite powerful AND give energy to me, I was wondering how much this was and how it triggered because if large enough I could see this giving me defense plus performing a similar role to quarry of giving me more attacks before I need to use n energy builder (with this plan I could also use end/rec as my secondary stats giving me high energy & equilibrium & discount).

So theres kind of where i'm at, at the moment and additional info or feedback would be great.

Archived Post
03-07-2010, 11:31 AM
my idea is to NERF aversion!

:)

carry on.

Archived Post
03-07-2010, 11:59 AM
A nice thing about Torrent of Arrows is that it can hit 5 targets, and if you 100 feet back the cone is huge and it is easy to hit 5 targets. The on-next-hit damage powers, like Sonic Device and Toxic Nanites, will spread to all 5 targets.

Torrent was really fun for a while, but they nerfed it at the same time as they nerfed LR, -20% damage (Fail). Now it is lackluster at rank 3, it does about 800 damage per target at level 30. It still hits 5 targets though, and it is your best bet for minion killing if you want to stick to the archery theme. The other one to consider is rank 2 Storm of arrows + achilles heel. It is acceptable, and it hits up to 7 foes.

I don't play my archer since the LR+Torrent nerf, and in reality I suggest making a new char and putting the archer aside. LR is still the best defense, for these reasons:

1. Aversion is a huge bonus to dodge, but a modest bonus to evasion. To make it work, you need to increase evasion, which can be done through Evasive Maneuvers, Swinging + flipping, some crappy MA moves, and most of all through Lightning Reflexes.

2. LR scales with DEX, and since archery's specialty is hitting several foes at once, it takes good advantage of the increased critical rate.

With aversion in use LR is pretty much defunct


No way! Aversion boosts dodge greatly, but you need to get your evasion up to make use of that. LR boosts evasion by 30-50%, and since you will be dodging all the time with aversion, the evasion will determine your average mitigation.

Yeah, you could make an invul tank with evasion gear, a few advantages, and aversion, and all the dodging would add about 30% mitigation (on average), in addition to whatever Invul is doing. But with aversion and LR you are looking at 65% average mitigation, even higher with gear and advantages.

Archived Post
03-07-2010, 12:09 PM
My archery toon has quarry with the advantage (small health return on defeating a quarried enemy), and bionic shielding. seems to hold up alright, but he isn't a high level. I wouldn't mind havig more con, but those two powers seem to be enough health return for a lot of stuff.

Archived Post
03-07-2010, 04:23 PM
They just need to fix Explosive Arrow back to how it was. There was nothing wrong with how it worked before. The damage it deals without stacking is pathetic, not worth buying. The only reason to pick up the power was that the damage amounts stacked. There's nothing wrong with that, it's how they would behave in the field, you put five time delayed explosives into a target, it's not as if only one of them would go off, no, they'd all go off as their timers ran out, and that's how oit should be. The whole point of WTK was that it takes the damage of the attack and delays when it is applied. By making it non-stacking, it's essentially putting a massive cooldown on the power for very little benefit in return.

I have no idea what they were thinking, but I don't plan on playing archer any time soon.

Archived Post
03-07-2010, 08:57 PM
I have to agree with Isometry regarding archery (not so much the effectiveness of LR but I'll stick to discussing archery here). Since the various nerfs to the powerset, including the one that made Explosive Arrow a poor choice for a tier 3 power, archery isnt really a viable option for me. Almost every archery power choice is poor compared to powers in other sets that do the same thing.

As Isometry said I have put my archer aside. For me the difference is that archery is my favorite type of character in MMO's and in the Champions pen and paper game, if my archer is put aside so is CO.

Archived Post
03-07-2010, 11:18 PM
Rank 3 Explosive arrow is surprisingly effective, does about 1k in an AoE that doesn't dissipate like sonic arrow, it has a hefty energy tag for it but it is still pretty good, and regeneration is effective with the set i've found, since your attacks tend to be slow and few it doesn't slow down the regeneration time while your attacking and recovery gets the energy up there fast and for archery that helps.

To folks quitting their archers whatever floats yer boat, it all comes down to personal playstyle and somehow despite everything thats happened to Archery since CB i've managed to still remain enthralled by the sets uses and potency so Bon Voyage and happy trails.

Also I wouldn't bother taking Aversion at all, there's been enough whining and complaining in the last few weeks that it's going to be up for a nerf very shortly I'm sure.

Also how did aversion manage to slip under everyones Radar for so long?, seems kinda strange that it's now getting alot of Feedback that it's OP, just kinda strange how stuff like this seems to keep happening with the powers here.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 07:26 AM
Rank 3 Explosive arrow is surprisingly effective, does about 1k in an AoE that doesn't dissipate like sonic arrow, it has a hefty energy tag for it but it is still pretty good, and regeneration is effective with the set i've found, since your attacks tend to be slow and few it doesn't slow down the regeneration time while your attacking and recovery gets the energy up there fast and for archery that helps.

To folks quitting their archers whatever floats yer boat, it all comes down to personal playstyle and somehow despite everything thats happened to Archery since CB i've managed to still remain enthralled by the sets uses and potency so Bon Voyage and happy trails.

Also I wouldn't bother taking Aversion at all, there's been enough whining and complaining in the last few weeks that it's going to be up for a nerf very shortly I'm sure.

Also how did aversion manage to slip under everyones Radar for so long?, seems kinda strange that it's now getting alot of Feedback that it's OP, just kinda strange how stuff like this seems to keep happening with the powers here.

Rank 3 in a top tier power to do 1k damage isnt very good damage compared to other ranged damage powersets.

If archery's attacks are slow, and few, enough to not trigger regeneration's reduced effectiveness and also do less damage than other sets, thats not a good indication of power synergy. Thats just low damage. You get that same sort of benefit from restricting yourself to an energy builder for offense.

Ultimately I am not saying that archery cannot be effective but rather that it is not on a par, damage wise, with other power sets.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 09:54 AM
OK so not entirely unexpected that a lot of people would post saying don't bother, but I've decided to try and get my toon to work and I thought with the upcoming changes it might be worth trying something new. So I started this thread to get discussion going on ideas of things to try.

So in this light I'm gonna post a build here of an idea I had. That is one of the big points it is just an idea and is very open to change or even complete scrapage. Just take a look and try to be constructive.

Build by championBuilder 0.4.1 (http://champions.zarzu.ch)

Download this Build here. (http://champions.zarzu.ch/download.php?download=4132g7050032605203505217zz03 017051030700600160641060644060640250c2170531205085 260c30270630025zz045zzzz75y10g5y20l5y20o5y20p5y20t 5y20s5y20z25y0035y0021h0000000000000000)

: Level 40 Champion

Superstats:
Level 5: Super Intelligence
Level 13: Super Constitution

Powers:
Level 1: Strafe -- Aversion, Accelerated Metabolism
Level 1: Sonic Arrow -- Crippling Challenge
Level 5: Taser Arrow
Level 5: Acrobatics -- Rank 2, Rank 3
Level 8: Torrent Of Arrows -- Relentless Recurve, Rank 2
Level 11: Defiance -- Rank 2, Rank 3
Level 14: Bionic Shielding -- Rank 2
Level 17: Toxic Nanites -- Rank 2
Level 20: Sonic Device -- Deafening Dissolution
Level 23: Masterful Dodge
Level 26: Explosive Arrow -- Where's The Kaboom?, Rank 2
Level 29: Unbreakable
Level 32: Bountiful Chi Resurgence -- Resurgent Reiki
Level 35: Orbital Cannon -- Rank 2, Anvil of Dawn
Level 35: Teleport
Level 35: Snap Shot -- Rank 2, Rank 3

Talents:
Level 1: Mechanized
Level 6: Healthy Mind
Level 9: Quick Recovery
Level 12: Boundless Reserves
Level 15: Investigator
Level 18: Negotiator
Level 21: Amazing Stamina

So to the idea. I though trying out defiance as a passive would be interesting as it would give me resistance plus some good energy management. With defiance chosen I decided to try chucking Dex altogether and went for SS Con/Int with Rec and End as backup. I found that this gave me tons of energy with high equilibrium plus the cost discount from int.

Attack wise against henchies it would be torrent + sonic or toxic. For Bigger stuff I thought I might try using snap shot in between when I could use WTK.

I had a little test with this and the main things I noticed were my survivability went up but my damage was quite a lot down (god u miss those crits). Anyway what do people think?

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 10:39 AM
They just need to fix Explosive Arrow back to how it was. There was nothing wrong with how it worked before. The damage it deals without stacking is pathetic, not worth buying. The only reason to pick up the power was that the damage amounts stacked. There's nothing wrong with that, it's how they would behave in the field, you put five time delayed explosives into a target, it's not as if only one of them would go off, no, they'd all go off as their timers ran out, and that's how oit should be. The whole point of WTK was that it takes the damage of the attack and delays when it is applied. By making it non-stacking, it's essentially putting a massive cooldown on the power for very little benefit in return.

I have no idea what they were thinking, but I don't plan on playing archer any time soon.

...Because stacking 5 explosions on the enemy that did 1-2k damage each that all went off less than a second after eachother doesn't give the person time to react?

The devs stated that the purpose of WTK was to make it so you didn't have to charge the attack, not that you could stack 5 explosions on an enemy and then watch them explode.

With WTK now, you can tap, tab, tap, tab, tap, tab, tap, tab, tap and get 5 enemies with an explosion. There are ways other than LOL5STACKSOFINSTANT10K+DAMAGEYOUCAN'TAVOID of playing a set.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 11:08 AM
...Because stacking 5 explosions on the enemy that did 1-2k damage each that all went off less than a second after eachother doesn't give the person time to react?

The devs stated that the purpose of WTK was to make it so you didn't have to charge the attack, not that you could stack 5 explosions on an enemy and then watch them explode.

With WTK now, you can tap, tab, tap, tab, tap, tab, tap, tab, tap and get 5 enemies with an explosion. There are ways other than LOL5STACKSOFINSTANT10K+DAMAGEYOUCAN'TAVOID of playing a set.

And each of those taps has its damage divided among the various targets in the area. I am not aware of any of the other ranged DPS sets that require you to repeatedly switch targets within a single group in order to get an effect that is less than what other top tier ranged aoe attacks can, in many cases, with a single shot.

As it stands WTk can be tab-tapped throughout a group, but since it divides its damage among the members of that group you get a diminishing returns effect. You can only get multiple detonations if the group is large enough for separate taps against each, but if the group is that large the damage form each tap is sub-par or even inconsequential (by the standards of T3 powers, and many lower tier powers as well).

Against single targets WTK cannot be multi-tapped and has a very low DPS rating relative to other ranged t3 DPS sets/powers.

Essentially it is intended to function as an AoE but is designed to have its effectiveness reduced if used in that fashion.

This means that Arcery has no DPS power, no reliable spike damage power, and has had its AoE reduced to a state that is subpar to other ranged sets.

EDIT:

I agree that WTK was OP previously but the time to deliver the damage from 5 stacks of WTK, form first shot to fifth detonation, was over 6 seconds. A person that cannot react within that amount of time will have problems with most, if not all, of the devoted PvP killer builds.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 11:38 AM
The point is they hit for 2k each, and thats 10k in six seconds, very few builds can do that and stay almost untouchable.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 01:15 PM
Not all powers are to be treated alike, otherwise the only reason to take any other power over another becomes purely cosmetic, and archery has plenty of good damages Torrent of Arrows is still a great if not one of the best AoE effects out there since it can be combined with Sonic device AND nanites and spread the effect to up to 5 targets doing as much if not more damage in 1 shot than a fully charged Gigabolt with less energy cost WITH a dose of a powerful Knockback.

Snap shot does about 200 damage a shot and it's cheap and fast like an uncharged blast skill from just about any other tree, it just doesn't HAVE a charge to it so it's fast and spammable, and explosive arrow does NOT dissipate between targets, I get over 1k every time against the first 3 holograms and as a tap it's about 300 per target.

Taser arrow is still a good stun that can be tap fired and still get the effect or charged for a longer duration either way unlike alot of stuns you get the effect with or without charging it up and you even get a dose of damage done too.

Archery has it's place as do all the skills, so saying it's not on par with the others doesn't fit since none of them are even on par with each other in the first place, theres no one Fire based skill that matches Gigabolt and theres no MA move that works like a Chainsaw, every skill and every tree has it's uses and purpose it's up to you to make the skills work, and if the game designers so desire to change it around it's time to make something else work.

Good luck out there in your Post WTK Archery build's folks.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 01:25 PM
Well this thread didn't work out how I planned. I expected some *****ing but was hoping some interesting discussion could come out of the topic with ideas for builds passed around. Anyway the way I see it WTK has been fixed and its gonna stay that way with no amount of *****ing going to change the fact so theres kinda no point going on.

Anyway....

Snap shot does about 200 damage a shot and it's cheap and fast like an uncharged blast skill from just about any other tree, it just doesn't HAVE a charge to it so it's fast and spammable, and explosive arrow does NOT dissipate between targets, I get over 1k every time against the first 3 holograms and as a tap it's about 300 per target.

I kinda though you could try using WTK once then tapping snap shot in between till the explosion goes off. I tried some initial testing off this and the damage doesn't seem too bad. You get one normal WTK plus 4-5 snap shot taps for about 1K, not what it used to be but still not that awful. Gonna test this a bit more and get some numbers to see.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Aye sorry fer goin off like thatl, personal problems and anger surfacing where they shouldn't, but in my time on PTS I found that the timing between a fully charged WTK shot is pretty darn close to the explosion meaning you could fire off one and while the next shot is charging just a split second or 2 prior to the charged shot being fired the explosion from the first kicks over leaving the target ready for another full on WTK.

Throw in a snap shot or Sonic arrow or even worse a taser arrow so they get a nice big stun while they wait to go boom in between a fully charged Explosive arrow could get mean, also wanna test if the Nanites can transfer between targets of the explosion itself, if so just think of it as a napalm DoT burn strike :p.

Edit: Well that's neat both sonic device and nanites work with the AoE burst from explosive arrow, just watched 3 guys fall down dead from the DoT from nanites and the explosion.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 04:11 PM
Not all powers are to be treated alike, otherwise the only reason to take any other power over another becomes purely cosmetic, and archery has plenty of good damages Torrent of Arrows is still a great if not one of the best AoE effects out there since it can be combined with Sonic device AND nanites and spread the effect to up to 5 targets doing as much if not more damage in 1 shot than a fully charged Gigabolt with less energy cost WITH a dose of a powerful Knockback.

Snap shot does about 200 damage a shot and it's cheap and fast like an uncharged blast skill from just about any other tree, it just doesn't HAVE a charge to it so it's fast and spammable, and explosive arrow does NOT dissipate between targets, I get over 1k every time against the first 3 holograms and as a tap it's about 300 per target.

Taser arrow is still a good stun that can be tap fired and still get the effect or charged for a longer duration either way unlike alot of stuns you get the effect with or without charging it up and you even get a dose of damage done too.

Archery has it's place as do all the skills, so saying it's not on par with the others doesn't fit since none of them are even on par with each other in the first place, theres no one Fire based skill that matches Gigabolt and theres no MA move that works like a Chainsaw, every skill and every tree has it's uses and purpose it's up to you to make the skills work, and if the game designers so desire to change it around it's time to make something else work.

Good luck out there in your Post WTK Archery build's folks.

Taser arrows hold is extremely weak. With extensive testing (a friend volunteered to be a target dummy so as to get a better test than against actual target dummies) we determined that Taser's hold was barely a pause in his actions most of the time. According to Ame the target's endurance attribute aids in resisting it as well as all of the other normal resists to holds.

If you compare Torrent of Arrows combined with Sonic Device and Nanites to AoE attacks without the On Next Hit additions, you are correct, it does compare very favorably. As it stands though its AoE damage, post nerf, does not qualify it as one of the better AoE skills.

Explosive Arrow does dissipate if you apply the WTK advantage. That is why one of the defenses against it in PvP was to move in close to others so as to dissipate the effect to the point that everyone hit was taking minimal damage. If attacked by a WTK spammer I would move in next to another target so that the WTK detonations on me would combine with my own attacks to speed up a kill while reducing the damage I took (of course this would only work in BASH). Since so few people play melee in PvP this tactic wasnt particularly dangerous as it would be for an archer in other games.

Im not saying that Archery isnt playable. Im not saying that it cant be effective. But it certainly isnt balanced against other ranged damage sets.

To Frozen Bones: With Dex/Int SS in balanced stance, with a defensive passive, I dont normally see 2k hits. 850-1300 is the normal for me.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 04:17 PM
I kinda though you could try using WTK once then tapping snap shot in between till the explosion goes off. I tried some initial testing off this and the damage doesn't seem too bad. You get one normal WTK plus 4-5 snap shot taps for about 1K, not what it used to be but still not that awful. Gonna test this a bit more and get some numbers to see.

This works. I used to use this in NemCon with decent results. With CC on Snap Shot, this, plus Aversion, BCR, and LR, allowed me to tank (as well as a character not specificaly designed to tank can) as well as put out halfway decent DPS.

Archived Post
03-08-2010, 04:59 PM
...Because stacking 5 explosions on the enemy that did 1-2k damage each that all went off less than a second after eachother doesn't give the person time to react?

It gives them more time to react than if those attacks hadn't been time delayed. Any other decent ranged primary attack would do that same damage the instant the attack hit, rather than several seconds later.

Archived Post
03-09-2010, 01:24 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned but you could always train yourself to play now as if the WTK fix has already gone in.

Archived Post
03-09-2010, 03:30 PM
Aversion is OP. Its beyond me how Cryptic constantly lets skills get the pass like this one. No need for LR when you have this. And it stacks with other defensive passives to make you near unkillable. If anything it should have a hefty internal CD on it.

Archived Post
03-09-2010, 04:03 PM
Imo, neither aversion or WTK are op. There are many other powers that are in line with them. Other powers that are not should be brought in line with the one's considered "op". Hate to see nerf ball range, twig melee, and pot lid blocks in the future from the insistance of nerfs. I'd rather move twards awsomeness and do no plan on subing to a "Sidekicks Online" future.

Archived Post
03-09-2010, 04:51 PM
Don't know if this has been mentioned but you could always train yourself to play now as if the WTK fix has already gone in.

This is pretty much what I've been up to on the PTS and what the original point of this thread was to do with ideas to make it work. Unfortunately the thread got bogged down in *****ing about aversion or whether WTK should or shouldn't be fixed.

Archived Post
03-10-2010, 01:13 AM
Aversion is OP. Its beyond me how Cryptic constantly lets skills get the pass like this one. No need for LR when you have this. And it stacks with other defensive passives to make you near unkillable. If anything it should have a hefty internal CD on it.

The problem from what I've seen is that when Cryptic nerfs a power, they tend to go overboard and make it nigh worthless. I hope they won't do that to Aversion

Archived Post
03-10-2010, 09:47 AM
So some are SS'ing CON with INT?

I recently started an Archery Concept build and I've played him to 18 so far. I die a lot. I SS'ed REC and INT, and I took Quarry as a passive.

I'm not too thrilled with Quarry, and I'm not even sure at this point if I'm playing the build right, but I shudder at the thought of anything in this framework being 'nerfed'.

My archer is human, so I don't mind that he dies a lot, but the idea of any of the powers I've used being OP I would disagree with.

Granted, I haven't taken the WTK advantage, but from the sounds of it I do not need to bother.

If anyone has any suggestions for a concept themed Archer, I'm listening, I just can't see taking Regen or Invun since it does not fit, I want a straitforward Archery Hero.

Archived Post
03-10-2010, 10:11 AM
The problem from what I've seen is that when Cryptic nerfs a power, they tend to go overboard and make it nigh worthless. I hope they won't do that to Aversion

Aversion just needs a internal CD. Like how they did kinetic darts proc.

Archived Post
03-11-2010, 12:54 AM
So some are SS'ing CON with INT?

I recently started an Archery Concept build and I've played him to 18 so far. I die a lot. I SS'ed REC and INT, and I took Quarry as a passive.

I'm not too thrilled with Quarry, and I'm not even sure at this point if I'm playing the build right, but I shudder at the thought of anything in this framework being 'nerfed'.

My archer is human, so I don't mind that he dies a lot, but the idea of any of the powers I've used being OP I would disagree with.

Granted, I haven't taken the WTK advantage, but from the sounds of it I do not need to bother.

If anyone has any suggestions for a concept themed Archer, I'm listening, I just can't see taking Regen or Invun since it does not fit, I want a straitforward Archery Hero.

Looking at your post have you thought of trying lightning reflexes, to me this is a more
"mundane" defense and may suit your character. Combine this with the aversion advantage on strafe and the defense is pretty good (I never thought it was as bad as a lot of people said). For that you'd have to SS Dex which would also help with more crits and increase your damage (although you would need some ego as well)

Archived Post
03-11-2010, 01:22 AM
So some are SS'ing CON with INT?

I recently started an Archery Concept build and I've played him to 18 so far. I die a lot. I SS'ed REC and INT, and I took Quarry as a passive.

I'm not too thrilled with Quarry, and I'm not even sure at this point if I'm playing the build right, but I shudder at the thought of anything in this framework being 'nerfed'.

My archer is human, so I don't mind that he dies a lot, but the idea of any of the powers I've used being OP I would disagree with.

Granted, I haven't taken the WTK advantage, but from the sounds of it I do not need to bother.

If anyone has any suggestions for a concept themed Archer, I'm listening, I just can't see taking Regen or Invun since it does not fit, I want a straitforward Archery Hero.

Some things to keep in mind about CO powers:

How you conceive of the power for your character determines how it fits your concept. If you decide that your Defiance or Invulnerability power represent your character's Carbon Fiber armored costume with kinetic gel padding then so be it. If you decide that regeneration for your character isnt really wound regeneration but rather teh ability to roll with the punches (so to speak) so that no hit is more than a minor grazing blow from which you easily recover then so be it. If your concept is that your character is a normal human who just stands there and gets hit by superhuman attacks, then your concept needs work to fit the genre.

WTK was OP. Very few people, including those unhappy with the form the nerf took such as myself, will disagree with that.

Consider using sonic device with torrent of arrows and sonic arrow to stun your foes at teh beginning of each fight. Use toxic nanites as well to continue to damage them while they are stunned and you are charging up your next attack. The advantage Relentless Recurve on Torrent of Arrows is also very helpful.

What you will find is that keeping your foes stunned, knocked down, and held will do wonders foro your survivability, even with Quarry instead of a defensive passive. With a defensive passive though you will find the variety of crowd control options available to an archer makes most of the game very easy.

Archived Post
03-11-2010, 09:12 AM
How you conceive of the power for your character determines how it fits your concept. If you decide that your Defiance or Invulnerability power represent your character's Carbon Fiber armored costume with kinetic gel padding then so be it. If you decide that regeneration for your character isnt really wound regeneration but rather teh ability to roll with the punches (so to speak) so that no hit is more than a minor grazing blow from which you easily recover then so be it. If your concept is that your character is a normal human who just stands there and gets hit by superhuman attacks, then your concept needs work to fit the genre.

First of all just to say that I completely agree with this, I personally am gonna try out using invulnerability with the skill represented by a high quality tech suit mitigating damage.

On the point of Explosive arrow / WTK I think the nerf although pretty drastic was right, you just need to use the power differently now. I find I still want it around for the very hard enemies where I use it once then tap snap shot till I can re-apply it. I'm still testing way to get the best of of powers now but I have no doubt I plan to keep using archery however broken people say it is. I just see a challenge.

Archived Post
03-11-2010, 09:26 AM
Aversion just needs a internal CD. Like how they did kinetic darts proc.

Aversion needs to be reduced to 10% dodge chance.

Archived Post
03-11-2010, 11:29 AM
Thanks for the feedback guys!!

I'll check out some of those suggestions!

Archived Post
03-11-2010, 12:22 PM
This is pretty much what I've been up to on the PTS and what the original point of this thread was to do with ideas to make it work. Unfortunately the thread got bogged down in *****ing about aversion or whether WTK should or shouldn't be fixed.

Yeah. My eyes started crossing so I jumped ahead and posted. I've found that playing like it's already in place works. I'm not spamming Explosive arrows. I'm cycling thru the procession and, if what the devs said are the case, that should be fine when this thing goes live.

Archived Post
03-12-2010, 01:01 AM
Aversion is OP. Its beyond me how Cryptic constantly lets skills get the pass like this one. No need for LR when you have this. And it stacks with other defensive passives to make you near unkillable. If anything it should have a hefty internal CD on it.

Aversion has a % to proc on a attack and combined with LR which is totally underpowered atm it gives a good defence skill for dex/ego users. Its nothing compared to how powerful invul, regen and defiance are now on PTS...

I tried LR with aversion, Invul,defiance and regen in Powerhouse Battle instance on PTS and every toon could clear the hard instance on 5 Team except the LR one =). The LR toon was copied from Liver server with full purple gear and 260 dex and the invul character was made on PTS with white gear and 130 str. Still the Invul character did a much better job. Well i didnt test it more then this and it was just my first impression on PTS changes.

Invul character = yawn am i being attacked?

Regen character = ok dont block! but wait i dont need to block, it heals for 1200 per tick!

Defiance character = ok its better and feels balanced

LR character = ok i try on easy mode, Team 1

Archived Post
03-12-2010, 01:12 AM
I havent read the whole thread.. but if you really want to keep your archer.. one possibility would be to go with an offensive passive.

The electric form passive works really well with taser arrow and sonic arrow.. and combine it with sonic device and you have some nice damage potential there.

Of course to make it work you are going to be depending on skills like Mindful Reinforcement, Resurgence, and Field Surge in order to stay alive.

The good news (maybe) is that you can also make use of skills like chest beam, gigabolt, and sparkstorm.

Archived Post
03-12-2010, 01:23 AM
Accelerated Metabolism?

Why?

Archived Post
03-12-2010, 02:55 PM
I havent read the whole thread.. but if you really want to keep your archer.. one possibility would be to go with an offensive passive.

The electric form passive works really well with taser arrow and sonic arrow.. and combine it with sonic device and you have some nice damage potential there.

Of course to make it work you are going to be depending on skills like Mindful Reinforcement, Resurgence, and Field Surge in order to stay alive.

The good news (maybe) is that you can also make use of skills like chest beam, gigabolt, and sparkstorm.

I thought about offensive passive at one point and even tried quarry (with ss int this give some dmg bonus) but the major thing I found was that although other like elec form could buff some of my attacks a lot of them would be left untouched and it seems like I wouldn't get enough benefit. On top of that there are thematic reasons, and even acounting for the fact that my toon has a mad scientist backing him up with gadgets I feel like a permanent elec field would be going beyond what I wanted.

Archived Post
03-12-2010, 03:43 PM
I thought about offensive passive at one point and even tried quarry (with ss int this give some dmg bonus) but the major thing I found was that although other like elec form could buff some of my attacks a lot of them would be left untouched and it seems like I wouldn't get enough benefit. On top of that there are thematic reasons, and even acounting for the fact that my toon has a mad scientist backing him up with gadgets I feel like a permanent elec field would be going beyond what I wanted.


Well I used to have a character that was electric form with taser and sonic arrow and then electric attacks.. and I found that taser and sonic arrow were my bread and butter attacks... id use those most of the time, and throw out a gigabolt when there was a good opportunity to.. sparkstorm when i was surrounded..things like that.

But yes.. it would make alot of your archery attacks less useful.. and you would be covered in electricity.. so yah, I can understan thematic reasons making that less than desirable.

Also.. I eventually ended up not using my arrow attacks much eventually..because gigabolt was hitting hard enough that it was all I really needed. Course..i wasnt really trying to make a full on archer either so I didnt have any reason to stick to archery attacks.

Whatever the case...i eventually found the character boring and respeced/renamed for a much more fun character that im using now :D.


Good luck with your archer.. hope you find a way to make it work. Id like to have an archer eventually myself...if it becomes more viable.

Archived Post
04-20-2010, 08:28 AM
Explosive Arrow does dissipate if you apply the WTK advantage. .

So is Explosive arrow now better without the advantage?? from a dps and spike damage standpoint that is???

Archived Post
04-20-2010, 09:02 AM
Currently the Dual-Blades offensive passive would work pretty well, since it gives you energy and a damage bonus when you crit. But that's going away with the melee update (it's becoming a toggle that benefits melee damage).

Quarry is a nice offensive passive for PvE, though I found it aggravating that neither Strafe nor Storm of Arrows would proc it.

The issue I have is that between Aversion and the set in general, DEX/INT is a really good SS combo. But for a defensive passive, that leaves you with Lightning Reflexes unless you want to do a 3rd stat, and you already have one 3rd stat (EGO). No too mention it's always nice to have points in CON, REC and END. That lowers the value of STR as a SS, which is kind of a bummer since Invuln would pair up nicely with Aversion (and evasive maneuvers). I actually don't mind LR that much, but I hate having so few PvP options for my slotted passive.

After all that wrangling, I'm settling for LR as my slotted passive for my new archer (currently level 12). I'll add Bionic Shielding and Bountiful Chi Resurgence (the new version sounds built for DEX/INT Archers with LR). Combined with a solid block enhancer it should work pretty well. I'm thinking of going with Retaliation, since I like to come out of a block with Torrent of Arrows with the Relentless Recurve advantage.

Maybe something like this for the progression:
Build by championBuilder 0.4.1 (http://champions.zarzu.ch)

Download this Build here. (http://champions.zarzu.ch/download.php?download=4132g605003505406052036zz032 60510370c20015064160c30250640600502605312606442505 226053035zz0860611275zzzz5zzzz5zzzz5zzzz5zzzz5zzzz 5zzzz25y0015y0031h0000000000000000)

: Level 40 Champion

Superstats:
Level 5: Super Dexterity
Level 13: Super Intelligence

Powers:
Level 1: Strafe -- Aversion
Level 1: Evasive Maneuvers
Level 5: Sonic Arrow -- Crippling Challenge
Level 5: Acrobatics -- Versatility
Level 8: Torrent Of Arrows -- Relentless Recurve
Level 11: Lightning Reflexes -- Rank 2, Rank 3
Level 14: Bionic Shielding
Level 17: Bountiful Chi Resurgence -- Resurgent Reiki
Level 20: Sonic Device
Level 23: Retaliation -- Punitive Pummeling
Level 26: Explosive Arrow -- Where's The Kaboom?
Level 29: Toxic Nanites -- Nerve Damage
Level 32: Focused Shot
Level 35: Storm Of Arrows -- Achilles' Heel
Level 35: Jet Boots
Level 38: Particle Mine -- Ejector Module

Talents:

Archived Post
04-20-2010, 01:48 PM
I don't have snap shot in my champion builder?? Was there an update I missed maybe?? only downloaded it a few months ago.

Archived Post
04-20-2010, 10:11 PM
I havent read the whole thread.. but if you really want to keep your archer.. one possibility would be to go with an offensive passive.

The electric form passive works really well with taser arrow and sonic arrow.. and combine it with sonic device and you have some nice damage potential there.

Of course to make it work you are going to be depending on skills like Mindful Reinforcement, Resurgence, and Field Surge in order to stay alive.

An alternative to this is to use Fiery Form to boost R3 Explosive Arrow. With this I was able to get it to 2k damage, non-crit. Combined with Toxic Nanites (also boosted by Fiery Form I believe) and it's a pretty devastating attack for the energy and short non-rooting charge. And since Fiery Form requires Presence, you can use heals to help your survivability.

It's what I plan to spec into if the Fire framework gets gutted into uselessness.

Archived Post
04-22-2010, 06:45 PM
Is Snap Shot The Same as Focused Shot???

Archived Post
04-22-2010, 08:23 PM
Is Snap Shot The Same as Focused Shot???

Nope. In fact they are essentially complete opposites in use.

Focussed shot is like a sniper's shot. It requires a full charge up and does high end spike damage.

Snap Shot is a no cool down, low activation time, spammable low-mid damage shot.