What is Dr. Destroyer's place in 6th edition?

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With Dr. Destroyer being considered dead and Shadow Destroyer taking his place in Champions Online, will the more iconic Dr. Destroyer still have a place in future books?

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Well, Dr. Destroyer isn't dead though. That is Dr. Destroyer. There is a whole bunch of lore in-game that explains what happens, and how he became Shadow Destroyer. And as far as the IP is concerned, the Champions Online version is the official version.

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It was explained to me very differently. In our dimension Dr. D is dead. But now we are dealing with Shadow D, who in his respective dimension is actually our James Harmon. In Shadow D's dimension, Dr. D is dead as well. However, in that dimension instead of James Harmon being inspired to become Defender after the Battle of Detroit, he became the shadow D.

Of course, villains never really die.

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It's possible, but I think it's impractical and the whole evil twin thing is a bit too cliche. Furthermore, considering the lore I have on hand, and the end of the Vibora Crisis, I think there is evidence to lead that this is the actual Dr. Destroyer, not to mention there are several isntances that recognize that Shadow Destroyer is the actual Dr. Destroyer, not an impostor. Black Talon's discussion of him, the robot head in the Factory, and several other instances. I would use voice examples, but that would be hard thing since the voice acting has changed almost regularly.

Though Defender is as much an egomaniac as Destroyer, Destroyer's ego far surpasses that of Defenders, especially considering what happened at the end of the Vibora Crisis.

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Well, Dr. Destroyer isn't dead though. That is Dr. Destroyer. There is a whole bunch of lore in-game that explains what happens, and how he became Shadow Destroyer. And as far as the IP is concerned, the Champions Online version is the official version.

All the ingame lore that I have read sets Shadow Destroyer up as a different person and mirrors the info set up about Shadow Destroyer in the Book of the Destroyer (which used info and artwork from Cryptic about Shadow D).

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It's possible, but I think it's impractical and the whole evil twin thing is a bit too cliche. Furthermore, considering the lore I have on hand, and the end of the Vibora Crisis, I think there is evidence to lead that this is the actual Dr. Destroyer, not to mention there are several isntances that recognize that Shadow Destroyer is the actual Dr. Destroyer, not an impostor. Black Talon's discussion of him, the robot head in the Factory, and several other instances.
Huh. I didn't read it that way at all. Black Talon pretty strongly implies that Dr Destroyer is greatly changed, which is consistent with it not even being the same guy, and I didn't see evidence for Robo-Destroyer in the factory even being connected to Shadow Destroyer (in fact, since Robo-Destroyer uses the retro Destroyer look, that's pretty much evidence for a lack of connection).

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Really, the only thing that supports Dr. D still being alive is the fact that the museum has a picture of Dr. D's updated armor. Seems like just a goof when grabbing artwork from Hero Games, rather than an intended choose though.

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Really, the only thing that supports Dr. D still being alive is the fact that the museum has a picture of Dr. D's updated armor. Seems like just a goof when grabbing artwork from Hero Games, rather than an intended choose though.
Actually, I think it's deliberate, but not indicative of much of anything except that the people maintaining the museum had an old picture.

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Huh. I didn't read it that way at all. Black Talon pretty strongly implies that Dr Destroyer is greatly changed, which is consistent with it not even being the same guy, and I didn't see evidence for Robo-Destroyer in the factory even being connected to Shadow Destroyer (in fact, since Robo-Destroyer uses the retro Destroyer look, that's pretty much evidence for a lack of connection).

Actually, I think it's deliberate, but not indicative of much of anything except that the people maintaining the museum had an old picture.

Black Talon actually implied it was the same man but he's now pretty much thrown his supporters off. He didn't say he was a different person as he was just different now. Then tehre are teh PSI people that felt it was Destroyer, and then of course is Destroyer's speach when fighitng him in NemCon and of coruse the end of the Vibora Crisis. I don't think it's a different person, but the same person who found a new source of pwoer.

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Black Talon actually implied it was the same man but he's now pretty much thrown his supporters off. He didn't say he was a different person as he was just different now. Then tehre are teh PSI people that felt it was Destroyer, and then of course is Destroyer's speach when fighitng him in NemCon and of coruse the end of the Vibora Crisis. I don't think it's a different person, but a new person who found a new source of pwoer.

The fellow whose family has worked for Destroyer for generations that you meet out by Stronghold pretty clearly states that the Dr. Destroyer that exists in the current Champions universe is not the Destroyer that he knew of before. The current Dr. Destroyer is James Harmon from another dimension (also explains why he has such an itch to make the actual James Harmon from our dimension miserable). Shadow Destroyer is the original Dr. Destroyer from our dimension, dead yet too evil even for hell.

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The fellow whose family has worked for Destroyer for generations that you meet out by Stronghold pretty clearly states that the Dr. Destroyer that exists in the current Champions universe is not the Destroyer that he knew of before. The current Dr. Destroyer is James Harmon from another dimension (also explains why he has such an itch to make the actual James Harmon from our dimension miserable). Shadow Destroyer is the original Dr. Destroyer from our dimension, dead yet too evil even for hell.

Nevermind I actually looked at some fo the karkaradon lore I had to which was burried deep in other parts instead of wtih my Destroyer lore. But, that also puts forth another quandry and problem; The notes say there is still the false Destroyer, which means that Dr. Destroyer is not dead.

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The notes say there is still the false Destroyer, which means that Dr. Destroyer is not dead.
Nah, there can be a false Destroyer without a true one.

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Nah, there can be a false Destroyer without a true one.

Hehe actually you mis-reading what I am saying; The notes are calling Shadow Destroyer the true Destroyer, and Dr. Destroyer the False Destroyer. It specifically states Dr. Destroyer being a master of science and machinery, versus Shadow Destroyer holding over the power of everything dark and evil specifically. It also refers to Dr. Destroyer in the present tense, not past tense, which means that Dr. Destroyer is not truly dead either, despite he was supposedly vaporized by his own weapon, but I think a credible eyewitness at ground zero of that event would be hard to corroborate in all events.

In fact, one of the things specifically stated was that the Karkaradon needed to beware the false Destroyer as well. The references in present tense, not past tense. So I think it's a little bit on the safer side to assume that Dr. Destroyer, himself, is not dead. Though he's not made his presence known yet.

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Hehe actually you mis-reading what I am saying; The notes are calling Shadow Destroyer the true Destroyer, and Dr. Destroyer the False Destroyer. It specifically states Dr. Destroyer being a master of science and machinery, versus Shadow Destroyer holding over the power of everything dark and evil specifically. It also refers to Dr. Destroyer in the present tense, not past tense, which means that Dr. Destroyer is not truly dead either, despite he was supposedly vaporized by his own weapon, but I think a credible eyewitness at ground zero of that event would be hard to corroborate in all events.

In fact, one of the things specifically stated was that the Karkaradon needed to beware the false Destroyer as well. The references in present tense, not past tense. So I think it's a little bit on the safer side to assume that Dr. Destroyer, himself, is not dead. Though he's not made his presence known yet.

Hmmm, I missed the false Destroyer stuff. That is good news. That means we might yet see Shadow Vs Dr.

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Hmmm, I missed the false Destroyer stuff. That is good news. That means we might yet see Shadow Vs Dr.

Possibly.

Say...who wins in a throwdown between Dr. Doom and Thanos? :p

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Possibly.

Say...who wins in a throwdown between Dr. Doom and Thanos? :p

Generally Thanos.

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Doom Conquers ALL!!

D'uh :).

If Thanos appears to win it is because Doom Has Other Plans!! and Thanos Is But A ****!!

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Ok, seriously, the lowest ranking piece in chess is a dirty word?

Who programmed this filter? Mary ****ING Poppins?

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Those little guys in chess are called 'pwns', you shilly sit. ;)

And yeah...Thanos vs Doom is a subject for KMC or ComicVine flamefests. Before we start whipping out lists of feats and invoking rules of bloodlust and PIS...let's just call it "too close to call".

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Well, Shadow Destroyer seems to think Dr. Destroyer is a threat, and I doubt Dr. Destroyer is just simpe push over in the mechanics of it all. We are talking about a man who held of dozens of heroes for hours on end before finally annihilating Detroit.

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Hehe actually you mis-reading what I am saying; The notes are calling Shadow Destroyer the true Destroyer, and Dr. Destroyer the False Destroyer. It specifically states Dr. Destroyer being a master of science and machinery, versus Shadow Destroyer holding over the power of everything dark and evil specifically. It also refers to Dr. Destroyer in the present tense, not past tense, which means that Dr. Destroyer is not truly dead either, despite he was supposedly vaporized by his own weapon, but I think a credible eyewitness at ground zero of that event would be hard to corroborate in all events.

In fact, one of the things specifically stated was that the Karkaradon needed to beware the false Destroyer as well. The references in present tense, not past tense. So I think it's a little bit on the safer side to assume that Dr. Destroyer, himself, is not dead. Though he's not made his presence known yet.

I thought there was a lore bit that said that Dr. D teleported to a space station before the cannon touched down.

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*shrugs* I haven't seen it, but there is still quite a bit of lore missing in game, like the Shadow Destroyer part, I think anyways.

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My vote is for Doctor D.....if he appears to get beat it will just be a Thanatos Coyote. Dr D is too cool of a villain to be......magical...........i vote for Science and technology !!!!!!!

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My understanding was that no one knows what happened. Dr. Destroyer was finally reached and so he slunk back into his base and no one was able to get after him in time due to everything else going on. Then Boom went the motor city. I'll have to re-read the books I got when waiting for Champions Online to come out way back when.

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Well, according to the back story in the 5th edition Millennium City book, Destorier fought off everyone for about half an hour then shot himself with a space laser after the Sentinels demanded he surrender. The blast killing Crusher and Flechette II, and apparently himself when it struck his base. The book intentionally states "Seemingly" when describing Destroyers Death though I would contribute this being more to aid campaign writers/ Because if he's not certainly dead GMs can always have him pop out of the wood work for revenge.

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Okay, gonna post up some speculations concerning Dr. Destroyer based on a few things I've read so far (remember in-game lore is official Champions Universe lore now); (note, the following contains spoilers)

Dr. Destroyers factory goes online and begins churning out Destroids. Though it is possible Shadow Destroyer may have activated the machines himself, I find it highly unlikely given Dr. Destroyer's extreme measures for safeguarding his own equipment as detailed in a VIPER report (VIPER themselves never being able to fully analyze any of Dr. Destroyer's technology because it self-destructs, as it were, if tampered with). But inside the factory there is the Destroid head that states that runs an error command but states a welcome for Dr. Destroyer.

The robotic clone of Dr. Destroyer in the factory pretty much made it clear that, despite he wasn't the real Dr. Destroyer, his master was still out there (reference to Dr. Destroyer?) and that he would soon be returning hence the factory work going on. Even one of his speaches says that his master (Dr. Destroyer?) has prepared for every eventuality. If that is the case then he must of been prepared to use his orbital laser cannon and have an escape plan.

Shadow Destroyer references Dr. Destroyer directly, telling his minions, the Karkaradon, to beware the false Destroyer. Giving Shadow Destroyers dimensional omnipotence, I'd find it highly unlikely he would just casually mention Dr. Destroyer unless he felt or knew he was alive. Of coruse, this could also just be Shadow Destroyer covering his bases just in-case someone posing as Dr. Detroyer try and trick the Karkaradon that he is the real Destroyer. But, I find that highly unlikely, as Shadow Destroyer is very vane and egotistical, not unlike Dr. Destroyer, and doubt would even make a reference to him if he felt he was dead. This also demonstrates that Shadow Destroyer feels that Dr. Destroyer is a threat to him.

Though this just might be the fact NPCs don't know as much as us players, they reference Shadow Destroyer as Dr. Destroyer several times throughout the Vibora Apocalypse. This most likely was an over-sight or just NPCs not being privy to OOC knowledge.

Where as Shadow Destroyer is just vane and egotistical, Dr. Destroyer is a genious and practially the smartest man alive. Barring that he is 93 by now (born in 1917), Dr. Destroyer would of had to of had an escape plan, even for something that was clearly aimed towards him. His orbital laser was obviously apart of his contingency plan, and there is stille vidence out there that despite Shadow Destroyer trying to lay claims to the legacy of Dr. Destroyer, the real Dr. Destroyer is out there, plotting and scheming perhaps, or getting ready to make his next move, as the reactivation of his robot factory may show.

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Every hint, every detail, every debated phrase or inference is a tool of the Destroyer. Like the greatest of all chess masters he is plotting a dozen moves ahead of his novice opponents. Playing with us. Toying. Teasing. We struggle to understand, like children at the feet of a grandfather grown wise with age, and he smiles in condescension at our futile efforts. You see we are hoping against all hope to prevent the return of the greatest threat our world knows while he understands the truth. This is already Destroyers world. We are merely loose threads waiting for him to trim.

A sudden and unexpected appearance would not suit him. No. Such would lack drama, staging, any sense of build up to a climactic finish. Shadow destroyer ? A tool chosen for this very purpose. To hint at the looming return of the greatest mind the world has ever known while simultaneously sowing confusion, doubt, and the greatest of all tools in the hands of the conqueror, despair.

Herr Zerstoiten, even before he transcended mortal limits to become Destroyer, had reached the epitome of the art of composition. He was the greatest musician in the world. Composer, director, master of a hundred instruments. Sculpture, painting, mastery of all of the arts was his.

Even now, sitting before a poished ebony grand piano, surrounded by samples of the work of other great artists, softly lit by a bare handful of candelabra, in a room with no mirrors, for even Destroyer cares not to face the ruin of his own features, He plays. His fingers caress the keys to craft order out of chaos. To make music out of mere sound. Perhaps this takes place on a floating island carefully cloaked from the prying eyes of a frightened world. Perhaps in a fortress whose lofty placement on the moon is meant to correlate to the home of the gods on Olympus, high above the concerns of lesser beings.

Either way, he is playing, and we are dancing.

To his tune.

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Okay A.) that was AWESOME and B.) i misread Chess master as Cheese master and it threw the whole thing off until i reread.

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Okay A.) that was AWESOME and B.) i misread Chess master as Cheese master and it threw the whole thing off until i reread.

You are right, when I reread it, inserting the phrase "Cheese Master" it does change the feel of it :D

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It's obvious.

Chronomancer is obviously a front for the real Dr. Destroyer.

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It's obvious.

Chronomancer is obviously a front for the real Dr. Destroyer.

Nah. Im pretty sure that Tumerboy is the real Dr D. His avatar has horns so he must be evil and he knows more details about the layout of the CO universe than just about anyone else. Just as a would be conqueror would from his extensive study of his target prior to the implementation of his master plan. Hes even twirled his moustache on the PTS.

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Silver, here is a brief history on Shadow Destroyer from the book -

He is from the Multifarian Earth, it is where different time periods intermingle. His family kept magical power by sacrificing their own family (usually a brother). He had no brothers, so he sacrificed his own brother. Then he worked on growing his powers. So he crafted his armor and tested himself against the superheros of his world.

One day, he was greeted by a man (Luthor Black) from another dimension who was seeking a book in order to gain power. Shadow helped him get it because he didn't want to use the book himself (since he would lose his soul in the process). After he helped him, he decided to follow the man back to his dimension and gain the power.

He did his research and found that in order to follow him he would need a lot of sacrifices. He decided to use Detroit as his target so he set a trap for superheros and then took out the city. That is when he ended up here. Of course time is funky in that dimension so Luthor Black visited in 1896, Dr. Destroyer took out Detroit in 92, and Shadow is Destroyer showing up now, even though it was only a couple months between Black visiting and the destruction of Detroit in Shadow Destroyer's dimension.

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It's all a Nemesis plot ...

*runs away*

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It's all a Nemesis plot ...

*runs away*

Nemesis? Who dat? ;)

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It's all a Nemesis plot ...

*runs away*

I keep saying this but no one believes me. The Crown Prince of Automations is clearly devious enough to transcend games, also I ran into him in Nemcon once.

Would be cool to see Destroyer vs. Shadow Destroyer with a massive battle between robots and shark dudes.

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The Destroider droids are still active ? (*) To who do they listen then if D is gone ? or is he like DrDoom replaced by a robotic version of himself ?


(*) see quests like Vex in the city and Invaders of the destroyers and Mega Destroyer in Open mission zones

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Right now everything is under the control of Shadow Destroyer. I think even he assumes the real Dr. Destroyer was killed in the Battle of Detroit. Zerstoiten's just sitting back and watching it all unfold. Afterall, he's not a young man any more and it's much better to have "grunts" doing all the work for him while he bides his time and plans. :)

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Right now everything is under the control of Shadow Destroyer. I think even he assumes the real Dr. Destroyer was killed in the Battle of Detroit. Zerstoiten's just sitting back and watching it all unfold. Afterall, he's not a young man any more and it's much better to have "grunts" doing all the work for him while he bides his time and plans. :)

I doubt this is the case. Many VIPEr reports confirm that attempting to tamper with Dr. Destroyer's tech results in a large explosion, which means most likely Shadow Destroyer can't manipulate Dr. Destroyr's robots. Furthermore, Shadow Destroyer, as I stated previously, has mentioned Dr. Destroyer by name, which implies that Dr. Destroyer is not dead. He calls him the False Destroyer.

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I doubt this is the case. Many VIPEr reports confirm that attempting to tamper with Dr. Destroyer's tech results in a large explosion, which means most likely Shadow Destroyer can't manipulate Dr. Destroyr's robots. Furthermore, Shadow Destroyer, as I stated previously, has mentioned Dr. Destroyer by name, which implies that Dr. Destroyer is not dead. He calls him the False Destroyer.
You do realize that Shadow Destroyer has Dr. Destroyer people working for him, right? You think Rakshasa or Gigaton, to name but 2, didn't have access to various codes and bases? You have to look at a much bigger picture. Shadow Destroyer doesn't know everything about Dr. Destroyer's organization but he does know everything he's able to learn from those who served Dr. D - and still think they do. Of course Dr. D has all the bypass codes but that that doesn't change the fact that SD has access to a lot of what was once DD's resources.

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You do realize that Shadow Destroyer has Dr. Destroyer people working for him, right? You think Rakshasa or Gigaton, to name but 2, didn't have access to various codes and bases? You have to look at a much bigger picture. Shadow Destroyer doesn't know everything about Dr. Destroyer's organization but he does know everything he's able to learn from those who served Dr. D - and still think they do. Of course Dr. D has all the bypass codes but that that doesn't change the fact that SD has access to a lot of what was once DD's resources.

You also realize that Raksasha and Gigaton were working on their own in the Crisis, Black Talon doesn't trust the person calling himself Destroyer (aka Shadow Destroyer) and most of Dr. Destroyer's actual living followers don't actually trust or believe that Shadow Destroyer is Dr. Destroyer. Also, I doubt Dr. Destroyer would actually leave the power of his robot creations in the hands of his men who could potentially turn on him. Dr. Destroyer is suppose to be an eccentric genious, and sharing his power is something I doubt he would even fathom. In fact, there is suppose to be no one smarter than Dr. Destroyer himself, so to imagine that he didn't have a plan to escape his own weapons is silly.

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You also realize that Raksasha and Gigaton were working on their own in the Crisis, Black Talon doesn't trust the person calling himself Destroyer (aka Shadow Destroyer) and most of Dr. Destroyer's actual living followers don't actually trust or believe that Shadow Destroyer is Dr. Destroyer. Also, I doubt Dr. Destroyer would actually leave the power of his robot creations in the hands of his men who could potentially turn on him. Dr. Destroyer is suppose to be an eccentric genious, and sharing his power is something I doubt he would even fathom. In fact, there is suppsoet obe no one smarter than Dr. Destroyer himself, so to imagine that he didn't have a plan to escape his own weapons is silly.
#1: Gigaton and Rakshasa weren't both working on their own. Gigaton makes reference to following orders as part of a distraction, IIRC.

#2: Black Talon isn't a supervillain. He's one of many people using a powered-armored suit designed by Dr. D. And who, exactly, do you think started the whole invasion in the first place? Shadow Destroyer.

#3: Show me anything in the actual game that indicates the various Destroyer agents don't trust or believe SD is DD. In case you forgot, even in the PnP universe DD was gone for 10 years before he re-emerged. The difference between the PnP and MMO is that Shadow Destroyer appeared before Dr. Destroyer made his return.

#4: Even in the PnP Dr. D let underlings use all of his robots and other resources for a decade while he hid and planned. What you're forgetting is that DD has the bypass codes. DD has alpha clearance. He can shut them down with the wave of his hand. They aren't a threat to him in any way.

#5: Dr. D isn't the smartest person in the CU - not the 5E PnP version anyway. There are many characters as smart and some, such as Teleios and Mentiac to name but 2, are smarter.

#6: Who said he didn't have an escape plan? I said he's still alive and watching things progress; and as long as SD goes in the direction DD wants there's no reason for DD to make himself known, and put himself at risk. DD is more then happy to let SD take all the risks until DD is ready to make his move.

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Guess you missed talking to Black Talon and many of the actual lore fragments, where Black Talon specifically states he has his doubts and so do many of the officers of Dr. Destroyer.

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Guess you missed talking to Black Talon and many of the actual lore fragments, where Black Talon specifically states he has his doubts and so do many of the officers of Dr. Destroyer.
Yes. But that's beside the point. That's not what I originally said. My point is that Dr. D is more then happy to let SD take the heat until he's ready to come forward. Having doubts about SD didn't stop Black Talon from doing SD's bidding and breaking into the Champions HQ.

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Yes. But that's beside the point. That's not what I originally said. My point is that Dr. D is more then happy to let SD take the heat until he's ready to come forward. Having doubts about SD didn't stop Black Talon from doing SD's bidding and breaking into the Champions HQ.

Uh, no it's not beside the point. If none of Dr. Destroyer's Lieutenants trust Shadow Destroyer as Dr. Destroyer, and assuming that Dr. Destroyer actually shared his vast power and army with anyone at all, why would they reactivate Dr. Destroyer's robot army for Shadow Destroyer if they don't trust him? Most of Dr. Destroyer's Lieutenants are fanatically loyal to him till death and beyond, and most of them openly admit, either in writings you find or from them directly, they don't trust this person impersonating Dr. Destroyer so are not following him. In fact, Black Talon's big dillema was is it worth it to send out his find and retrive alert so the Destroids and the rest of Destroyer's Lieutenants could come pick him up during the riot at Stronghold, but because of his doubts of the new Destroyer, he was left just left with the idea that he was better off waiting for the real dr. Destroyer to show up.

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Given that the Destroyer robot in the factory looks like the original Destroyer, not like Shadow Destroyer, I'm inclined to think it doesn't work for SD. It might not be in contact with the original Dr. D either (it might just be building robots just to be prepared), but there isn't really any reason it needs to be working for Shadow Destroyer.

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This is comic book logic. For all we know Dr. D is alive and well, and manipulating SD to weaken the Champions, and if it looks like SD will actually win he'll show up suddenly, go "SUPRISE" and vaporize him in a massive orbital strike. Remember, he pretty much discounts magic, so he may not even be taking SD seriously.

Look into your heart, you know it to be true.

(Edit: In my mind, the robot factory supports the theory that there is a real Dr. D out there working behind the scenes, as I doubt he'd discount the possibility of a clone trying to access his work, so simply BEING genetically identical wouldn't work, and I doubt he'd give up his command codes even in death. He's too much of an egomaniac to do so.)

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What we do know about the factory is that whoever activated couldn't be verified by the system but had access to the override code.

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Yeah, but I doubt Dr. D gave that out. And so, given that SD was NOT Dr. D, even an alternate one, exactly how did HE get it? I'm proposing, he didn't.

And remember, the factory was built long before SD came to the Champions dimension, so SOMEBODY gave the order for that to happen.

It's not exactly paranoid to say that there is a decent chance the real Dr. D survived and is working.

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With Dr. Destroyer being considered dead and Shadow Destroyer taking his place in Champions Online, will the more iconic Dr. Destroyer still have a place in future books?

Sorry to have missed this thread earlier. I haven't read the intervening five pages of posts, so I'm going to provide a direct answer that may have already been covered by other posters in some fashion. ;)

Assuming Cryptic doesn't want me to change anything after reviewing the CU manuscript (and they've certainly said nothing so far), here's how things stand:

1. The Battle of Detroit takes place in 1992; Dr. Destroyer fakes his own death so he can spend time devising new weapons and plans free from meddling heroes.

2. In 2002, just as Dr. Destroyer is ready to announce his return to the world, Shadow Destroyer appears on Earth. Disturbed and perturbed by this, Dr. Destroyer remains in seclusion to keep an eye on events. The world widely believes that Shadow Destroyer is the "real" Dr. Destroyer returned from the dead.

3. As of 2010, Dr. Destroyer continues to observe the situation and make plans to obliterate Shadow Destroyer. Shadow Destroyer expects him to show up eventually, at which point he will obliterate the real Dr. Destroyer.

a. Most of Dr. Destroyer's organization has fallen apart and gone on to other things after nearly 20 years of nothing happening. Some of his most loyal people, including villains like Gigaton and Rakshasa, remain hopeful that their leader isn't really dead and try to soldier on in his absence; none of Dr. Destroyer's major bases has been discovered by the authorities. Whether Dr. Destroyer's had any contact with these loyalists is left an open question for now, but each GM can certainly answer it as he sees fit.

Hopefully that helps! If you have any other Destroyer-related PnP questions, just let me know. ;)

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Sorry to have missed this thread earlier. I haven't read the intervening five pages of posts, so I'm going to provide a direct answer that may have already been covered by other posters in some fashion. ;)

Assuming Cryptic doesn't want me to change anything after reviewing the CU manuscript (and they've certainly said nothing so far), here's how things stand:

1. The Battle of Detroit takes place in 1992; Dr. Destroyer fakes his own death so he can spend time devising new weapons and plans free from meddling heroes.

2. In 2002, just as Dr. Destroyer is ready to announce his return to the world, Shadow Destroyer appears on Earth. Disturbed and perturbed by this, Dr. Destroyer remains in seclusion to keep an eye on events. The world widely believes that Shadow Destroyer is the "real" Dr. Destroyer returned from the dead.

3. As of 2010, Dr. Destroyer continues to observe the situation and make plans to obliterate Shadow Destroyer. Shadow Destroyer expects him to show up eventually, at which point he will obliterate the real Dr. Destroyer.

a. Most of Dr. Destroyer's organization has fallen apart and gone on to other things after nearly 20 years of nothing happening. Some of his most loyal people, including villains like Gigaton and Rakshasa, remain hopeful that their leader isn't really dead and try to soldier on in his absence; none of Dr. Destroyer's major bases has been discovered by the authorities. Whether Dr. Destroyer's had any contact with these loyalists is left an open question for now, but each GM can certainly answer it as he sees fit.

Hopefully that helps! If you have any other Destroyer-related PnP questions, just let me know. ;)

Edom King? was that the Shadow Destroyer being mean or what.. I like that Crisis in Vibrio Bay...End..

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And there's the answer, that I've been stating a while just based on teh clues in game ;)

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Sorry to have missed this thread earlier. I haven't read the intervening five pages of posts, so I'm going to provide a direct answer that may have already been covered by other posters in some fashion. ;)

Assuming Cryptic doesn't want me to change anything after reviewing the CU manuscript (and they've certainly said nothing so far), here's how things stand:

1. The Battle of Detroit takes place in 1992; Dr. Destroyer fakes his own death so he can spend time devising new weapons and plans free from meddling heroes.

2. In 2002, just as Dr. Destroyer is ready to announce his return to the world, Shadow Destroyer appears on Earth. Disturbed and perturbed by this, Dr. Destroyer remains in seclusion to keep an eye on events. The world widely believes that Shadow Destroyer is the "real" Dr. Destroyer returned from the dead.

3. As of 2010, Dr. Destroyer continues to observe the situation and make plans to obliterate Shadow Destroyer. Shadow Destroyer expects him to show up eventually, at which point he will obliterate the real Dr. Destroyer.

a. Most of Dr. Destroyer's organization has fallen apart and gone on to other things after nearly 20 years of nothing happening. Some of his most loyal people, including villains like Gigaton and Rakshasa, remain hopeful that their leader isn't really dead and try to soldier on in his absence; none of Dr. Destroyer's major bases has been discovered by the authorities. Whether Dr. Destroyer's had any contact with these loyalists is left an open question for now, but each GM can certainly answer it as he sees fit.

Hopefully that helps! If you have any other Destroyer-related PnP questions, just let me know. ;)
Battle of the Destroyers - I love it!!! :D

I gotta admit, even though both are awesome villains, I am a bit more fond of the newer Shadow Destroyer :).

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Ok so now I finally know that Dr. D is still around, and so is Shadow Destroyer(Blegh). So if Shadow Destroyer is the evil defender...what is the multifarian version of Doctor Destroyer? Is he the Defender of multifarian?

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Ok so now I finally know that Dr. D is still around, and so is Shadow Destroyer(Blegh). So if Shadow Destroyer is the evil defender...what is the multifarian version of Doctor Destroyer? Is he the Defender of multifarian?

There is no mention of the Doctor in the multifarian dimension.

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Generally Thanos.


If Doom has some time to plan or foresee it... Doom.
If not... Thanos.
Doom is great because he's 'the' Mastermind to me in Marvel. An my favourite Supervillain (and sometimes hero ;) )
However he's been overpowered several times. He just always has a few trump cards to ensure survival.

Doom shall not be denied!

Btw what does this Shadow Destroyer look like?

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Btw what does this Shadow Destroyer look like?

The guy in the wallpaper on the right? Or in the banner? Or the Dr. Destroyer shown in the Dr. Destroyer profile on the villain profiles?

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Isn't all the art of Doctor Destroyer?

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No. That's Shadow Destroyer. In fact if you read the actual entry it says it's unusual considering the design of the armor and the new powers he is weilding.

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Hmm could someone put up a piccie of the regular one then?

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Hmm could someone put up a piccie of the regular one then?

The picture of the guy in the entrance of the Destroyer lair? That was Albert Zerstoiten's last known costume (ie. his 5th edition outfit).

Edit:
As seen here:
https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=232631

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The picture of the guy in the entrance of the Destroyer lair? That was Albert Zerstoiten's last known costume (ie. his 5th edition outfit).

Well, his last known costume in CO would be the one that was seen inside the factory. Remember, in CO, he disappeared right after the destruction of Detroit and hasn't reappeared since. The use of that artwork for the entrance to Destroyer's factory I have always found to be a little off.

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Well, his last known costume in CO would be the one that was seen inside the factory. Remember, in CO, he disappeared right after the destruction of Detroit and hasn't reappeared since. The use of that artwork for the entrance to Destroyer's factory I have always found to be a little off.

It's a bit of a continuity issue, an artifact of Cryptic ignoring or downplaying Albert Zerstoiten's return in CU canon. I think we have to fan **** a wee bit and assume that Zerstoiten at some point in his career adopted the 5th edition outfit and wore it in public. This doesn't preclude wearing his 4th edition outfit at the battle of Detroit, but he would have been recognized as having switched his costumes back and forth a few times in his career. They certainly changed over the course of the PnP game, as Book of the Destroyer ably demonstrates. For Albert's 4th edition look:

http://vu.morrissey-solo.com/moz/perez/info/champions4.htm

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Aren't we all happy the Resistance Adventure Pack came out? I think it wrapped up this whole issue rather well.

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And there will be much rejoicing in Javangari! :D

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Yeah, Resistance basically put this to rest once and for all. I think they meant for us to go "Oh crap, he's back" but I was more "Yay! Dr. Destroyer!"

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I'd be interested in hearing the perspective of the Cryptic Studios devs as to what they were trying to accomplish by introducing Shadow Destroyer, that they felt they couldn't with the original Dr. D.

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I'd be interested in hearing the perspective of the Cryptic Studios devs as to what they were trying to accomplish by introducing Shadow Destroyer, that they felt they couldn't with the original Dr. D.

I think they just wanted an alternate universe version of the Champions themselves, in much the same way that they created the Praetorians (http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Praetorians) in City of Heroes.

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Ok so now I finally know that Dr. D is still around, and so is Shadow Destroyer(Blegh). So if Shadow Destroyer is the evil defender...what is the multifarian version of Doctor Destroyer? Is he the Defender of multifarian?

I've not finished resistance so perhaps I'm gonna seem real ignorant here, but I figured for sure "the old man" grizz mentioned would be the Multifarian version of doc destroyer

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I've not finished resistance so perhaps I'm gonna seem real ignorant here, but I figured for sure "the old man" grizz mentioned would be the Multifarian version of doc destroyer

Alright, what is to follow is basic spoiler info from what I know;

Albert Zoisterton, or "The Old Man", that you free in Resistance is the real Dr. Destroyer. No, he is not Multifarian Destroyer, that man was actually killed according to the timeline. In fact, it was because of that Destroyer that Multifarian Harmon, aka Citizen Harmon or Shadow Destroyer, got his inspiration and became a new Destroyer.

Dr. Destroyer was actually slated to return much sooner, but when Shadow Destroyer made his appearance and claiming to be THE Destroyer, well, Dr. Destroyer's ego sort of got in the way. He waited and plotted in the background and finally tracked him down and decided to attack Shadow Destroyer in his home world. However, that battle didn't go well and he was defeated and captured, and that is how Shadow Destroyer gained control of the mass of Destroid armies and factories.

So in short, the Dr. Destroyer you free is the REAL Dr. Destroyer. Albert Zerstoiten. Is the maniacal mad genius that leveled Detroit, and it is only a matter of time before his next plot will come forth now that he has been freed.

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You know, one thing that has me curious. Even though Dr. Destroyer is like the greatest scientific genius of all time, at least according to him, he's nearly 100 years old. Any explanation of how he is still alive, or is it explained as sheer will or some scientific drug he creates or something else?

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It's his armour - it slows down his aging to almost a complete standstill.

If I remember the quote, it's something like "Every second spent outside his armor is a second of normal aging, and a second to be avoided."

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Exactly, which is why he almost never takes off his armor. Outside of it he looks like a very healthy but still elderly white male.

Zerstoiten's greatest secret, which almost no-one else in the world knows, is that his exceptional genetics, which are responsible for his genius, also make him unsuitable for any of the antigeria or cloning procedures he's developed. The life-support systems in his armor slow his aging, but can't stop it. He's desperately searching for a way around this problem, but if he can't find one he won't be around very much longer.

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Well with the 'good' Doctor out and about now, that opens up some rather interesting and possibly Faustian story lines for him.

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Years ago I contributed a "plot seed" to a Champions PnP book, suggesting that Dr. Destroyer could start a war with Dr. Yin Wu if he learns the Chinese sorceror is immortal, to force from him the secret of the Pill of Immortality. I liked the image of ultratech robots slugging it out with Chinese supernatural monsters. PCs could be drawn into the middle of the conflict to prevent the destruction of Chinatown, and perhaps be recruited by Yin Wu himself in order to prevent an immortal Destroyer.

The climax of the scenario would be protecting Yin Wu's castle in China from Destroyer's assault. I also suggested it would make an interesting complication if the sorceror himself leaked knowledge of the Pill of Immortality to Dr. Destroyer, to prompt Destroyer to invade China to get to him; thus weakening the Chinese regime enough for Yin Wu to overthrow them and declare himself Emperor.

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Years ago I contributed a "plot seed" to a Champions PnP book, suggesting that Dr. Destroyer could start a war with Dr. Yin Wu if he learns the Chinese sorceror is immortal, to force from him the secret of the Pill of Immortality. I liked the image of ultratech robots slugging it out with Chinese supernatural monsters. PCs could be drawn into the middle of the conflict to prevent the destruction of Chinatown, and perhaps be recruited by Yin Wu himself in order to prevent an immortal Destroyer.

The climax of the scenario would be protecting Yin Wu's castle in China from Destroyer's assault. I also suggested it would make an interesting complication if the sorceror himself leaked knowledge of the Pill of Immortality to Dr. Destroyer, to prompt Destroyer to invade China to get to him; thus weakening the Chinese regime enough for Yin Wu to overthrow them and declare himself Emperor.

funny you mentioned that as I had JUST read that section of the book.

I admit to being VERY curious how destroy's mortality will be handled eventually. according to book of the destroyer, he's got 9 years before his health starts failing I can only figure that he's gonna launch some sort of last ditch world conquest plot fairly soon...

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I admit to being VERY curious how destroy's mortality will be handled eventually. according to book of the destroyer, he's got 9 years before his health starts failing I can only figure that he's gonna launch some sort of last ditch world conquest plot fairly soon...

You can actually find out about that in Galactic Champions -- though in the Cryptic Era I suppose it's possible there might be a bit o' a retcon eventually. ;)

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In the Galactic Champions timeline, Dr. D goes out with more of a whimper than a bang.

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In the Galactic Champions timeline, Dr. D goes out with more of a whimper than a bang.

Sad to hear. :(

But one more book to pick up on the next paycheck. :D

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You can actually find out about that in Galactic Champions -- though in the Cryptic Era I suppose it's possible there might be a bit o' a retcon eventually. ;)

haveing just read it you're gonna have to retcon it in 10 years anyway Steve, :)

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How far fetched would it be for Dr. D to develop time travel tech and travel to the future for the knowledge to help treat his aging issues? There have been time traveling people in Champions lore before.

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How far fetched would it be for Dr. D to develop time travel tech and travel to the future for the knowledge to help treat his aging issues? There have been time traveling people in Champions lore before.
If our favourite blender wearing inventor can toss a time machine together, the Great Destroyer should be able to do it without any trouble.

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It mentions in Book Of The Destroyer that while Dr. D would like to get his hands on Captain Chronos's obviously-advanced technology to study, he's confident he could invent a time-travel device himself if he wanted to.

This idea would be a great pretext to send PCs on a time-travel adventure. Trying to stop Destroyer they're accidentally drawn into his machine and follow him to the Thirtieth Century and the universe of Galactic Champions! Now that would make a helluva comic series or adventure pack! :cool:

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It mentions in Book Of The Destroyer that while Dr. D would like to get his hands on Captain Chronos's obviously-advanced technology to study, he's confident he could invent a time-travel device himself if he wanted to.

This idea would be a great pretext to send PCs on a time-travel adventure. Trying to stop Destroyer they're accidentally drawn into his machine and follow him to the Thirtieth Century and the universe of Galactic Champions! Now that would make a helluva comic series or adventure pack! :cool:

agreed! it'd offer up a chance to use part of the champs IP that would otherwise be hard to use

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Hello, I haven't read the books of the Champions, but I can't understand if Dr. D (Albert Z.) died or travelled to Multifaria due a space time distortion created by his Orbital Cannon. So both destroyers fought and eventually Citizen Harmon defeat Albert Z. or am I wrong? Please explain me what happend after the battle of Detroit.

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At the conclusion of the Battle of Detroit in 1992, Dr. Destroyer (the original, Albert Zerstoiten, whom I'll refer to as "Dr. Destroyer" for purposes of this discussion) teleported away to one of his hidden bases, while leaving evidence behind that led the world to believe he died. Dr. Destroyer spent a decade in seclusion refining his weapons and technology, intending to return to the world more powerful than ever. Just as he was about to launch his reappearance in 2002, a villain claiming to be Dr. Destroyer ("Citizen Harmon") showed up on Champions Earth. Destroyer covertly studied his doppleganger, eventually discovering the dimension he came from. In 2009 Dr. D travelled to the Multifarian and attacked Citizen Harmon, but underestimated his opponent and was defeated and imprisoned. Harmon used control codes from the Doctor's captured armor to access some of his facilities and employ some of his robots and vehicles. As a result of the events in "Resistance," Dr. Destroyer escaped his imprisonment and confronted and defeated Citizen Harmon.

Now we're all just waiting to see what happens when the true Destroyer announces his return. ;)

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I'd really hope for the new level (whenever it comes out) to have some more Dr. D in it.

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Regarding a more continuity question: is Book of the Destroyer considered a 5th edition book or does it stand in the 6th edition?

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Regarding a more continuity question: is Book of the Destroyer considered a 5th edition book or does it stand in the 6th edition?

Book Of The Destroyer was written for the Fifth Edition of HERO System, and is technically a 5E book continuity-wise, although AFAICT everything in it about Destroyer up until 2002 still applies to 6E continuity. In BOTD Steve Long had Dr. D make his public return in that year because other 5E books referred to his activities after that date, and Steve didn't want to contradict and confuse the timeline for people who had those books. In BOTD he makes Shadow Destroyer/Citizen Harmon's appearance a more recent event.

The Sixth Edition Champions Universe sourcebook completely conforms to the timeline established by Champions Online regarding the two Destroyers.

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Book Of The Destroyer was written for the Fifth Edition of HERO System, and is technically a 5E book continuity-wise, although AFAICT everything in it about Destroyer up until 2002 still applies to 6E continuity. In BOTD Steve Long had Dr. D make his public return in that year because other 5E books referred to his activities after that date, and Steve didn't want to contradict and confuse the timeline for people who had those books. In BOTD he makes Shadow Destroyer/Citizen Harmon's appearance a more recent event.

The Sixth Edition Champions Universe sourcebook completely conforms to the timeline established by Champions Online regarding the two Destroyers.

Thanks for the help.One more quick question(hoping not to diverge attention on the thread's basic topic): Is Champions Universe the only book,currently, that counts as a part of the 6th edition volumes?

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Thanks for the help.One more quick question(hoping not to diverge attention on the thread's basic topic): Is Champions Universe the only book,currently, that counts as a part of the 6th edition volumes?

Definitely not. :) Besides the rulebooks, and books full of prebuilt superpowers, supertech, and the like, volumes that are written for Sixth Edition and firmly part of current Champions Universe continuity include the Champions genre book, of which a fraction is devoted to describing the superteam of that name; the Champions Villains trilogy, detailing literally hundreds of canon supervillains; Champions Beyond describing CU outer space and its inhabitants; and the soon-to-be-released Book Of The Empress detailing the vast interdimensional empire of Istvatha V'han.

However, with a few exceptions Champions Online is very firmly based on CU continuity established by Fifth Edition, so at least 90% of what was written for 5E is still accurate "lore-wise." ;)

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Definitely not. :) Besides the rulebooks, and books full of prebuilt superpowers, supertech, and the like, volumes that are written for Sixth Edition and firmly part of current Champions Universe continuity include the Champions genre book, of which a fraction is devoted to describing the superteam of that name; the Champions Villains trilogy, detailing literally hundreds of canon supervillains; Champions Beyond describing CU outer space and its inhabitants; and the soon-to-be-released Book Of The Empress detailing the vast interdimensional empire of Istvatha V'han.

However, with a few exceptions Champions Online is very firmly based on CU continuity established by Fifth Edition, so at least 90% of what was written for 5E is still accurate "lore-wise." ;)
Thanks for help(again),Lord_Liaden.:)

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While chewy and interesting and loads of fun to think about what Cryptic could do with this in game...

It makes me sad to think Vanguard and so many others died and Dr.D still lurks and waits fro the moment to strike :(

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Gah. Double post...

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While chewy and interesting and loads of fun to think about what Cryptic could do with this in game...

It makes me sad to think Vanguard and so many others died and Dr.D still lurks and waits fro the moment to strike :(

There was no corpse. Of course he escaped.

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There was no corpse. Of course he escaped.

Hate to be morbid about this, but in Vanguard's case, there is no corpse because it burned up on re-entry.

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Hate to be morbid about this, but in Vanguard's case, there is no corpse because it burned up on re-entry.

I think he was talking about Destroyer not Vanguard.

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It makes me sad to think Vanguard and so many others died and Dr.D still lurks and waits fro the moment to strike :(

Especially since, according to Book Of The Destroyer, the entire asteroid scheme and destruction of Detroit was set up by Destroyer as a ruse just to fake his death. I really disagreed with that choice by Steve Long -- IMO it cheapens all those deaths and the heroes' sacrifice. :(

And yes, I'm aware of the irony of moral outrage over a completely fictional event. :o

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Actually LL, that whole point drives home the completely evil nature of Dr. Destroyer. It was a cheap tactic, and it worked. He even got to remove a few pesky heroes in the process. So in all it was an intentional ruse to make himself disappear so he could have time and quiet to perfect his plans, that came out with bonuses for him. It doesn't cheapen it, IMO, it just drives home the point how diabolical and devious he truly is.

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Fair enough. :) For my part, I just feel that with so many lives lost, and so many heroes who sacrificed themselves, their deaths would have had more meaning if they'd actually stopped a plot that Dr. D really wanted to succeed.

It seemed to me like Steve Long went a little too Jim Starlin/Thanos on that one. He wanted Destroyer to be perfect. ;)

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*Cries* I' will not...sob... be happy until Dr. Ka, or Caliburn, or Wtichcraft or Dr.Black or White finds some weird voodooo whozywhutzit and brings Vanguard back from the dead ...waaaah

I may be a Bat-fan, but even reading about anything close to a "Superman...he be dead...fo reals" breaks my dark little heart :(

In all seriousness though. Doc D is one bad *****.

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Fair enough. :) For my part, I just feel that with so many lives lost, and so many heroes who sacrificed themselves, their deaths would have had more meaning if they'd actually stopped a plot that Dr. D really wanted to succeed.

It seemed to me like Steve Long went a little too Jim Starlin/Thanos on that one. He wanted Destroyer to be perfect. ;)

I tend to agree.

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*Cries* I' will not...sob... be happy until Dr. Ka, or Caliburn, or Wtichcraft or Dr.Black or White finds some weird voodooo whozywhutzit and brings Vanguard back from the dead ...waaaah

I may be a Bat-fan, but even reading about anything close to a "Superman...he be dead...fo reals" breaks my dark little heart :(

His death was worthy of Superman, though. A great note to go out on.

In all seriousness though. Doc D is one bad *****.

That he is. For all his pretense of honor and nobility, and claims the world will be better under his rule... Albert Zerstoiten is a cruel, selfish, treacherous, greedy, ruthless SOB who cares nothing for anyone or anything but himself, and holds himself superior to all other beings in existence. It's truly unfortunate that he has the power and genius to back up his attitude.

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...That he is. For all his pretense of honor and nobility, and claims the world will be better under his rule... Albert Zerstoiten is a cruel, selfish, treacherous, greedy, ruthless SOB who cares nothing for anyone or anything but himself, and holds himself superior to all other beings in existence. It's truly unfortunate that he has the power and genius to back up his attitude.

I finally wrapped my head around what kind of character Dr D. is. My friends and I have always compared him to Dr. Doom of Marvel fame, but they never really stacked up. Though Doom can be conniving and underhanded he has always been presented as having a strong sense of honor. It only last summer after watching Captain America that I realized that he resembles another Marvel character much more. He isn't Doom. He the Red Skull in power armor.

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Hate to be morbid about this, but in Vanguard's case, there is no corpse because it burned up on re-entry.

You know who else burned up on re-entry? Jean Gray. Look how permanent that was.

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You know who else burned up on re-entry? Jean Gray. Look how permanent that was.

While Jean Grey has a revolving door on her coffin, Vanguard has pretty much been dead, cept his zombified corpse.

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FWIW Dr. Destroyer considered Vanguard to be his greatest enemy while he was alive. Vanguard actually has gone toe-to-toe with Destroyer in the past, albeit DD was in a less-powerful model of his armor than his current one. The two appeared evenly matched, but Destroyer eventually had to retreat due to depleting his energy reserves, while Vanguard's endurance seemed inexhaustible.

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While Jean Grey has a revolving door on her coffin, Vanguard has pretty much been dead, cept his zombified corpse.

And even that corpse mysteriously turned into an archer. :D

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And even that corpse mysteriously turned into an archer. :D

Death does weird things to people evidently ;)

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From my copy of the sixth edition (Thanks Mom!), Doctor Destroyer is actually at his weakest right now in resources. He's still powerful but his battle with Shadow Destroyer really screwed him up.

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I am really surprised that no one has yet answered the OP's question.

Dr D's place is at:

1374 Secret Megalomaniac Ave, apartment # 9
Millennium City, Mi 94678

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From my copy of the sixth edition (Thanks Mom!), Doctor Destroyer is actually at his weakest right now in resources. He's still powerful but his battle with Shadow Destroyer really screwed him up.

It's true that the majority of DD's former human operatives have drifted away over the years of his absence; only his fanatical worshippers in the Vale of Javangari are left. OTOH he still has his loyal superhuman cadre, the feared Destroyers; a horde of robots; several mothballed bases; and nearly limitless wealth. More than enough to rebuild upon.

Given recent events in Champions Online I wouldn't be at all surprised if Destroyer took a page from Citizen Harmon's book, and took over New Harmon for himself.

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I am really surprised that no one has yet answered the OP's question.

Dr D's place is at:

1374 Secret Megalomaniac Ave, apartment # 9
Millennium City, Mi 94678

Surely you didn't fall for that piece of misdirection. You really think Doctor Destroyer would reside at a mere apartment? :rolleyes:

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It's true that the majority of DD's former human operatives have drifted away over the years of his absence; only his fanatical worshippers in the Vale of Javangari are left. OTOH he still has his loyal superhuman cadre, the feared Destroyers; a horde of robots; several mothballed bases; and nearly limitless wealth. More than enough to rebuild upon.

Given recent events in Champions Online I wouldn't be at all surprised if Destroyer took a page from Citizen Harmon's book, and took over New Harmon for himself.

I think Dr. Destroyer made it clear at the end of Resistance, he would conquer that dimension after he is done conquering earth.

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I think Dr. Destroyer made it clear at the end of Resistance, he would conquer that dimension after he is done conquering earth.

I can see Destroyer becoming a dimensional emperor if he's left uncheked. I am really looking forward to his next "master plan" since returning from Multifaria. I'm not sure if he would still rely on the Destroids currently built, however, since Harmon controlled them,after all. More importantly, in-game both Gigaton, Rashaka and that Black Talon agent followed Harmon's orders so he may (or may not) be angry at them. Since Gigaton/Rashaka are the pillars of both Destroyer's organization along with the Destroyers team themselves this may be a problem (minor of course) to Zerstoiten's future endeavors. Considering he fixes the whole genetic problem of his.

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I can see Destroyer becoming a dimensional emperor if he's left uncheked. I am really looking forward to his next "master plan" since returning from Multifaria. I'm not sure if he would still rely on the Destroids currently built, however, since Harmon controlled them,after all.

As far as the game shows, Shadow Destroyer only controlled Destroids from one of Dr. D's minor facilities in Millennium City. Destroyer has many more robots, including models Shadow D never even saw.

More importantly, in-game both Gigaton, Rashaka and that Black Talon agent followed Harmon's orders so he may (or may not) be angry at them. Since Gigaton/Rashaka are the pillars of both Destroyer's organization along with the Destroyers team themselves this may be a problem (minor of course) to Zerstoiten's future endeavors. Considering he fixes the whole genetic problem of his.

This comes from Rakshasa's bio (http://www.champions-online-wiki.com/wiki/Rakshasa) on the Champions Online Wiki: "He is Dr. Destroyer’s spy master and right hand man. You might think that ought to be in the past tense, since Dr. Destroyer died in the Battle of Detroit. However, Rakshasa knows better than to believe that. Destroyer plays a deep game, and Rakshasa is holding his peace, keeping Destroyer’s organizations in top shape, and waiting for the day Destroyer returns. Of course, if potentially opportunities to further Dr. Destroyer’s goals pop up, Rakshasa is in a position to pursue them. Gigaton will take direction from him. Between the two of them, they are still quite a force to be reckoned with."

IMO there's a strong implication that Rakshasa is working for Shadow Destroyer mainly to look out for his boss's interests.

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Given recent events in Champions Online I wouldn't be at all surprised if Destroyer took a page from Citizen Harmon's book, and took over New Harmon for himself.

Given that he helped kicked his ass, I bet they will have no problem with it. Hell, I bet they will go to war with CO-Earth for him.

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Given that he helped kicked his ass, I bet they will have no problem with it. Hell, I bet they will go to war with CO-Earth for him.

Helped? For the most part we were distractions. Realistically Dr. Destroyer did all the work we were just along for the ride.

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Destroyer used the Resistance, and our PCs, to divert Harmon's attention and free him from Harmon's prison, which he was clearly prepared to take advantage of. We're nothing more than pawns to him, which is exactly how Dr. D always operates.

You can bet Destroyer has been making plans while he's been sitting in solitary. And you can bet our heroes aren't going to like them.

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If Rakshasa is so important, maybe if/when they revisit the Canadian Crisis (since new Westside makes it kind of irrelevant) they could remove him or at least make him seem like less of a chump? Because his current appearance in the game makes me think of him on par with Kevin Poe.

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If Rakshasa is so important, maybe if/when they revisit the Canadian Crisis (since new Westside makes it kind of irrelevant) they could remove him or at least make him seem like less of a chump? Because his current appearance in the game makes me think of him on par with Kevin Poe.

Rahksasha abandoned Destroyer when he started doubting Shadow Destroyer around the time of the Canadian Crisis. Just like Black Talon has sat in Stronghold this whole time not having once engaged his retrieval beacon. He even tells you the whole story, his doubts and that Gigaton, him and Rahksasha were the few Lts left, Shadow Destroyer had put doubts in them that this was the real Dr. Destroyer.

Now, will they all return once they find that the real Dr. Destroyer has returned? The Black Talon pilot will undoubtedly. Rahksasha and Gigaton? That might be a bit hairier.